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Moon Wizard
July 9th, 2014, 22:28
This question is specifically for players (as opposed to GMs who use characters differently). If you have only used as GM, please have your players vote instead.

Now that we're looking at revising the 5E ruleset for the rules release, I wanted to get feedback on the character sheet layout. Specifically, the tabbed layout seen in other rulesets vs. the exploded layout in the current 5E ruleset (one section per window).

Thanks,
JPG

El Condoro
July 10th, 2014, 02:47
Can it be made a player option, or is that too much?

ShadeRaven
July 10th, 2014, 06:51
At our table tonight, 6 players:
1 preferred the exploded layout
1 was okay with either
4 liked the side-tab layout

I will say, though, that the general feeling was that having a more "usable mini" was echoed as well. The resizing, ability to add equipment, update powers/spells, all from the more condensed size that was in 5E and in the mini version of some other rulesets, was definitely liked over having a full sheet and a mini-sheet where sometimes you had to do things in one, but liked to work out of the more condensed at other times.

The layout and look was all pretty much universally well received. :) Proficiency stars, combat and spell tabs, etc. The powers tab was a little confusing for some with the two layers and the lack of some fields having textable tabs to expand explanations into was a minor issue.

All-in-all, they are very excited with the initial entry into 5E on FG and all look forward to each evolution in the process!
SR

Moon Wizard
July 10th, 2014, 08:21
El Condoro,

While it might be possible long term, the problem is in maintaining code for two very different interfaces. I'd rather settle on one that satisfies the majority, and look at adding in support for more options later. It's already going to be an uphill battle getting 5E up to speed, since they've changed a fair amount and will be adding quite a bit of content later in August at Gencon.

Regards,
JPG

El Condoro
July 10th, 2014, 12:13
Thanks, Moon Wizard. I expected that would be the case, especially given how much of a pain it is to maintain two parallel sets of code when so many more important things need to be done, as you say. Cheers

Irondrake
July 12th, 2014, 14:40
I'm rather disappointed by the results so far, but the players have to look at the sheets more than we DMs do. I didn't vote because I never get to be on the player side of the table :) I wonder if they all know they can create shortcuts to individual pages by dragging the the page links to their shortcut bar at the bottom and have quick, one click access to that specific information (such as Powers, equipment, combat) without having to open the first page, then open a new page?

Eru the One
July 13th, 2014, 03:23
My main problem is in my other FG games, playing multiple characters is not easy (juggling different effects, powers, etc.), so multiple windows would be too much on the screen and I would prefer just a single sheet like the other rulesets have.

bdf1992
July 13th, 2014, 05:44
So, I don't want to say what not both...but why not?

Shouldn't it be relatively easy to allow a window to be torn off the main single page, essentially an updated version of the current Mini page.

Or what if right clicking a tab opened a new window for the tab and left clicking switched to the tab.

damned
July 13th, 2014, 06:42
So, I don't want to say what not both...but why not?

because...


While it might be possible long term, the problem is in maintaining code for two very different interfaces. I'd rather settle on one that satisfies the majority, and look at adding in support for more options later. It's already going to be an uphill battle getting 5E up to speed, since they've changed a fair amount and will be adding quite a bit of content later in August at Gencon.

... it may happen but not straight away :)

Griogre
July 13th, 2014, 16:16
I took a poll of my players that don't frequent the forums and played 5E the week before. They were all in favor of tabbed sheets over multi-windows however one did suggest it would be nice to be able to "pull an individual window out of the tabs" so you could have more than one window of the character sheet open. I think part of the preference for tabbed might be because mostly the players only want the powers tab or combat open when playing and the multi-window is most useful during character creation. They was a suggestion that multi-windows dock.

The other reason the players didn't seem to like the multi-window character sheet was screen real estate. Several commented that with the map and combat tracker open there simply wasn't room for multiple character sheet windows - particularly when running multiple characters. They also commented on their dislike of the lack of mini sheet as well.

My suspicion is player preference for a tabbed sheet has a lot to do with players mostly having only one screen that is smaller than the GMs and probably in a lower resolution.

Trenloe
July 13th, 2014, 16:35
I'm currently playing in a 5E intro game with Talen. I'm using a laptop with a fairly good screen (17 inch, full HD) and I am struggling with screen real estate with all of the multi windows. I didn't know about being able to drag the link to each character sheet page, which helps a little bit, but it's still not as quick to switch between pages as tabs would be.

viresanimi
July 13th, 2014, 18:39
Just did the same as Trenloe and while I like having the option to have every thing open, I can see people having problems with screenspace. I more or less used one of my 27' monitors just for the character sheet, which is excessive.

I am honestly in two minds. I do like it, but I can see how it can be cumbersome for others.


Vires Animi

Irondrake
July 13th, 2014, 18:47
Again, I'm not a player, but just to throw out my 2 cents anyway ;)

To get to powers, you open a character sheet, then switch to the powers tab. To get to equipment, you open the character sheet, then switch to equipment. The assumption here is you are not keeping your character sheet open here.

With the multi-window, you want to see your powers, you press F1. You want to see equipment, press F2. The assumption here is you drug the powers link to to the F1 slot, the equipment link to the F2 slot, etc, etc.

If you keep your sheet open, then you're not saving any time with either sheet, its still one button either way...but to me, it seems quicker, and a way to save screen real-estate, by having multi-page sheets the way they are.

This is just my opinion and I'm honestly fine with however it ends up. It really does need to be how the players want it in the end.

Zeus
July 13th, 2014, 22:01
After reviewing the feedback, we've taken the decision to revert the sheet back to a single multi-tabbed window. This should meet the community's majority preference. Moving forward we will continue to explore the possibility of introducing a hybrid window for CoreRPG rulesets which allows for sheets to be docked and undocked, thus providing a single codebase for the developers to maintain as well as providing optional charactersheet views for players.

Introducing said functionality will require some re-writes and as such we would prefer to focus on delivering a stable ruleset that meets the core ruleset requirements at this time. Once the dust has settled, you can expect the usual improvements to be introduced over time.

I just finished up, updating PAR5E to support all the new Basic Rules content; Backgrounds, Classes, Equipment (Gear, Armor, Weapons, Tools, Vehicles), Races, Spells and reference manual text are all in. Expect the usual drag/drop references to be updated to allow drag/drop to charsheets. We are also re-working the character creation wizard to handle Background Characteristics (Personality Traits,Bonds,Ideals,Flaws). Just working on Starter Set NPCs at the moment.

chillybilly
July 14th, 2014, 14:39
You guys are awesome to solicit and accept this feedback.

viresanimi
July 14th, 2014, 16:12
I just hope you keep the graphic style of 5E. I dig it.

Vires Animi

Irondrake
July 15th, 2014, 00:26
Thanks for the update Zeus :)

Zeus
July 15th, 2014, 21:38
I just hope you keep the graphic style of 5E. I dig it.

Vires Animi

Its staying as is (as far as I'm aware) that is unless we are successful in petitioning Wizards for a licensed rule set. In which case we might look to mirror the official style.

Irondrake
July 16th, 2014, 02:06
That would also be cool.

ShadeRaven
July 16th, 2014, 10:24
After some more extensive playtime, the multi-sheets are become more accommodating as people get used to assigning them to the function keys. In fact, there was some hope amongst the players that even if it goes back to tabbed, that tabs can be assigned to function keys.

Regardless, there's a lot of approval and appreciation of what we've got already and even more excitement for the future.

Irondrake
July 16th, 2014, 13:31
If the separate tabs could be assigned to the quickbar the way the current sheet can be, that would be great and I'd be less sad to see the multi-window character sheet go away ;)

Moon Wizard
July 16th, 2014, 22:05
Still plugging away at character sheet revision. It will not have separate sheets initially, but I'm trying to plan ahead in the design to allow it later.

Had to rebuild powers page to adapt to new spell casting usage rules, and global spell slots. Also, need to finish critical damage revisions, and dying rules. Zeus has been plugging away at Par5E and NPC updates. I'll probably put out a test update after that, and continue working on details (enabling better feature support).

Cheers,
JPG

Irondrake
July 16th, 2014, 23:34
That's great news!

ShadeRaven
July 16th, 2014, 23:54
+1. It's hard to express the appreciation we have for the work you put into this.