Notes Groups...

[HoloGnome]

How do I create notes groups? Is it possible?

[Trenloe]

Notes are really just meant to be free form notes for players, as such there is no group functionality as that is only available to GMs. If you want to do some level of indexing/table of contents use the link functionality of the formatted notes field. See post #1 in this thread for an example screenshot: https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?20555-Formatted-Player-Notes

Note: the extension is not needed as formatted notes are now included in CoreRPG based rulesets.

[HoloGnome]

OK - I will have a look at that thread - it doesn't immediately make sense, but I'm sure it will. I want to use notes to organize GM resources for myself or players that have nothing to do with story. Also, you know the client context, so you can enable group adding in a context-sensitive way. There are many reasons why FG could and should implement the Notes window the same way as all the others, besides the fact that it less work on the QA side.

Also, I will add that I tried adding a couple of category tags to the notes xml in db.xml and it didn't work. Not only that, but after I quit the session right after that, the app deleted ALL of my notes.

My comments/opinions are:
1. Lack of support for hierarchical directories in the pop-up windows to organize content notwithstanding, if there is a window class that includes the groups feature, then it should be supported by all the app windows, notes included. I would like to classify notes into groups.
2. Since the database is just text/xml, when the app encounters something that it thinks is a problem it should create a backup of the db 'as is' (in a repair folder, etc.) before it obliterates entire sections of GM work. In this case, it encountered a category that was unused - no changes to anything else. Granted, it was my fault for experimenting and I could have also saved my notes before adding a seemingly innocent xml category tag, but I had no idea the app would delete all my notes content. It loaded and showed all the notes properly, then erased them on exit. Again, technically my fault, but it points to ways to improve data safety.
3. The app should never automatically delete well-formatted content for any reason. Or, along the lines of a repair folder, if it must delete, then it could also move the content it thinks is bad as raw text to a repair file.
4. Data flushing to disk needs to be much better and immediate. Data changes appear not to be saved until the GM exits the campaign and there is no save function. This issue makes creating new content inside the application a risk with the added inconvenience of having to constantly quit and re-launch to force the content to save.

[Trenloe]

Data gets saved periodically (open the console window to see when data is saved).

Yes, there is a save function: https://www.fantasygrounds.com/wiki/index.php/Chat_Commands

And if you manually edit the campaign database then you really have no recourse if you lose data. Follow good practice and make backups of the db.xml file before you start "playing".

[HoloGnome]

OK - I understand after trying the right-click radial context menu and choosing paragraph type, but it still doesn't solve the problem of basic content organization or obviate the need for groups in the Notes window. The content you're linking to still has to exist somewhere, and if it's a Note and everything is in the notes window, then it's just more flat file system chaos.

Feedback on linking and note handling in general based on what I've seen so far as a new user:
1. Dragging existing content to the Notes window should automatically create a link to that content. Currently, users have to create the note text, then click 2 more times to convert it to a link, then drag the content on top of the link box. A little unwieldy from a Human Factors standpoint.
2. When the Notes window is in locked mode, the link text should be clickable to invoke the link.
3. When the GM creates notes, there is no owner. The owner should be GM, rather than blank/unassigned.
4. Owners cannot reassign ownership to others. For example, if a GM creates a note about something for players that he then wants them to be able to edit/own, he has to go into db.xml and manually assign/change the owner in order for that player to be able to edit the note.
5. "All" should be a valid/reserved user name that lets anyone edit a note and assignable by GM. For example, GM creates a note, right clicks on Owner, and enters an owner (or selects from pop-up) or All.

Paragraph types for notes are a definite improvement, but some additional work and consistent implementation of the group feature would make it even easier to use.

[HoloGnome]

OK - didn't realize I could use chat commands to save. Is there some reason that the right-click menus in GM context don't have a basic save feature?

Also, yes - definitely my fault for editing db.xml and not thinking to make a backup, but the app handling of the unexpected event could have been much more robust and points to an area where FG could improve things to help safeguard user data. For example, the app was dealing with well-formatted tags, so instead of flagging or addressing the tags it didn't understand in that section, it just deleted everything irrevocably, which is not an optimal choice from a programming or user standpoint.

[Andraax]

OK - I will have a look at that thread - it doesn't immediately make sense, but I'm sure it will. I want to use notes to organize GM resources for myself or players that have nothing to do with story. Also, you know the client context, so you can enable group adding in a context-sensitive way. There are many reasons why FG could and should implement the Notes window the same way as all the others, besides the fact that it less work on the QA side.

Also, I will add that I tried adding a couple of category tags to the notes xml in db.xml and it didn't work. Not only that, but after I quit the session right after that, the app deleted ALL of my notes.

My comments/opinions are:
1. Lack of support for hierarchical directories in the pop-up windows to organize content notwithstanding, if there is a window class that includes the groups feature, then it should be supported by all the app windows, notes included. I would like to classify notes into groups.
2. Since the database is just text/xml, when the app encounters something that it thinks is a problem it should create a backup of the db 'as is' (in a repair folder, etc.) before it obliterates entire sections of GM work. In this case, it encountered a category that was unused - no changes to anything else. Granted, it was my fault for experimenting and I could have also saved my notes before adding a seemingly innocent xml category tag, but I had no idea the app would delete all my notes content. It loaded and showed all the notes properly, then erased them on exit. Again, technically my fault, but it points to ways to improve data safety.
3. The app should never automatically delete well-formatted content for any reason. Or, along the lines of a repair folder, if it must delete, then it could also move the content it thinks is bad as raw text to a repair file.

It does create a backup if there are any problems. I've gotten notices after a (pretty rare) crash that there was a backup created. If you futz around and edit the XML by hand, then save a copy (or use an editor that automatically saves a copy, or a filesystem that provides versioning on changes).


4. Data flushing to disk needs to be much better and immediate. Data changes appear not to be saved until the GM exits the campaign and there is no save function. This issue makes creating new content inside the application a risk with the added inconvenience of having to constantly quit and re-launch to force the content to save.

Data is written to disk every few minutes. If the GM has his console window open, he will see the message that gets sent out to the console when a DB sync to disk is done.

[HoloGnome]

Yep - I understand /save now. I looked everywhere except the buried command-line chat functions. My "new user" expectation was that there would be graphical menu support for basic functions - enter some notes, right click, hit save, etc. For ease-of-use, it should be included in the radial menu. Don't worry - I won't ask about /undo. :D

My deleted notes content was not saved in any cache or backup file...and again...my fault, but the app could have been better behaved given the well-formatted content.

[HoloGnome]

Also - relating to my comment about the Note text not being clickable - it IS clickable in the main Notes window, but it IS NOT clickable once you bring up a note. This one would appear to be a bug, since it works at the top level.

[Moon Wizard]

I'm not following the last post. Can you be more specific on what is not clickable on the note record? Also, is the note record locked?

Regards,
JPG

[HoloGnome]

No problem.

Steps to reproduce:
1. Open the Notes window
2. Create a Note "Note1"
RESULT: The note text is clickable

3. Create another Note "Note2"
4. Open Note1 (nb. the note has no owner and there is no way to assign an owner without manually editing db.xml)
5. Enter some text for Note1 "This text will not be clickable"
6. Right click on that text and make it a Link paragraph type (nb. to create content links, drag and drop is a much easier method)
7. Drag Note2 from the main Note window and drop it onto the open link box that now exists in Note1. (nb. at this point, Note1 is still in the default state of being unlocked)
RESULT: Note2 is now hyperlinked into Note1. The anchor at the far left is clickable and the text is not, which is OK, since Note1 is currently in the unlocked state

8. Lock Note1
Result: The text is no longer editable, but clicking on it does nothing. When a list of hyperlinks is locked, clicking the text should open the sub-content window, generally follow a browser UX model, and be consistent with how the main Notes window functions.

Also, I really hope you guys will make the Notes (3.5E) window work like the others in terms of groups and fix the owner assignment issues. The assumption that it is only used as a scratch area for players is not necessarily unreasonable, but is very limiting and may fail to appreciate how users really want to use it, especially given no hierarchical content support, as above.

[Moon Wizard]

Thanks for the step-by-step.

This is how the formatted text controls have always worked for FG. I have been slowly chipping away at making them more functional.

Just 6 months ago, the formatted text controls defaulted to read-only mode, and you had to right-click just to edit text. Also, you couldn't click links while editing.

The thing you are asking for is actually something I've been looking at adding. Technically, it's a feature request, but I'll look at adding to v3.0.4.

Regards,
JPG

[HoloGnome]

OK - sounds good. And turn on Note groups for 3.0.4! :D You can do eeeeeeeeet!!

*** YOU LOOK IN THE CHEST AND FIND...A NOTE GROUP ACTIVATION FEAT! ***

[Griogre]

By the way HoloGnome, don't stop giving your "new comer" impressions they are really important to gauge expectations.

Honestly, I thinking the contents of the Notes and Story button entries should be merged. They have been converging in functionality for a while now and the last difference is who sees what as default and even that is consistent - the owner.

[damned]

By the way HoloGnome, don't stop giving your "new comer" impressions they are really important to gauge expectations.

Haha! Im just guessing here but I dont think Holo has any intention of keeping his thoughts to himself!

[HoloGnome]

Griogre - I think the entire right-side navigation would benefit from reconceptualization/rework. The first underlying change I would suggest is to support hierarchical content with enhanced permissions/ACL. Next, I would think carefully about the overall structure and inheritance - for example, there are multiple ways to approach overall content organization - ruleset-based, world- (or other location-) based, function-based, etc. After that, I would reduce the number of banner buttons and centralize functions in common windows. Top-level categories would likely replace the group buttons and groups would be handled implicitly with hierarchical support (as folders, etc.). The current implementation shows the signs of organic growth and feature-creep - for example, embedding buttons for Encounters in the NPC window.

damned - You're right! :D

[Griogre]

HoloGnome you might be interested in some of the conversations on the poll thread here: https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?21165-Parcels-amp-Encounters-Windows

[HoloGnome]

Griogre - thanks for the heads up. I took a quick look at the poll. I don't think I agree with the choices. ^_^ I need to think about it.

On a gut level, the current way could be much better, but the curse of a complex system is that there are a lot of ways to interpret or organize it -- particularly true of AD&D (which has plagued it over the years in every format). And, it's true that some interpretations are easier to use vs. others - hence the swinging pendulum of 2E to 3.0/3.5E to 4/5E.

I'm not sure I have a full GM perspective yet or can provide meaningful/gestalt feedback until I fully build/run at least 1 campaign and get a sense for how it works now or what I think would be easiest. I'm almost there - still really wanting hierarchical content, which is frustrating. Also, I just found the interesting Enhanced Images/Mapping Tiles (https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?20176-A-slightly-better-drawing-mode) discussion. And, I made an extension to try to integrate my understanding of how things work at the lua/api level. I'm going to screw around with windows and custom xml next.

Eventually (hopefully soon), I'll build a campaign and then see what I think! ;)

[Griogre]

Well the poll is a reflection of the frustration I felt after running a couple games where I needed to constantly open the encounter lists. It just goes to show you should always put an "Other, please explain below" option in polls. :p

[HoloGnome]

Yeah - other! :D

[HoloGnome]

3.0.4 Regression: Not fixed in 3.0.4. It is not possible to invoke hyperlinked content (Notes, Story, etc.) by clicking on the text of a locked window, except at the top level of the hierarchy.