How combat works in Sawage Worlds

[Liktorn]

Hi,

I just bought FG and Savage Worlds and Deadlands. I'm playing around with it to learn the basics. When I played around with Path Finder I found out that a player can target a npc and attack it. Then FG automatically tells me if its an hit or miss, and when I roll for damage it will apply automatic.
Now, my question is. Is there such functions in Savage Worlds and Deadlands. I can't get to work.

[Mask_of_winter]

No such automation with Savage Worlds because the Parry value varies a lot. For more thoughts on the matter check out: https://savagefgii.idea.informer.com/proj/?ia=22630

[Ikael]

Hi,

I just bought FG and Savage Worlds and Deadlands. I'm playing around with it to learn the basics. When I played around with Path Finder I found out that a player can target a npc and attack it. Then FG automatically tells me if its an hit or miss, and when I roll for damage it will apply automatic.
Now, my question is. Is there such functions in Savage Worlds and Deadlands. I can't get to work.

Savage Worlds ruleset doesn't support such feature (yet?). This is mainly because combat is very simple to manage without such automated system. Combat tracker contains all important information about each combatant to see if you hit or miss. In addition if you use Enhanced Combat Tracker extension, you can target combatants and they are being highlighted (with bluish color~ as your targets) in combat tracker to make it easy stat checking. If you're using Enhanced Desktop extension you can display PC's parry and toughness on their portraits (residing upper left corner).

[Ikael]

No such automation with Savage Worlds because the Parry value varies a lot. For more thoughts on the matter check out: https://savagefgii.idea.informer.com/proj/?ia=22630

I agree that Parry could be changing, but at least I have planned to implement this in Enhanced Combat Tracker (not scheduled thou). The idea is to utilize effects much more so that they could be used to alter your stats temporary. But the truth is that it won't be perfect, but heck if it could help around 8 cases out of 10, it''s worth being extension :)

[Liktorn]

Savage Worlds ruleset doesn't support such feature (yet?). This is mainly because combat is very simple to manage without such automated system. Combat tracker contains all important information about each combatant to see if you hit or miss. In addition if you use Enhanced Combat Tracker extension, you can target combatants and they are being highlighted (with bluish color~ as your targets) in combat tracker to make it easy stat checking. If you're using Enhanced Desktop extension you can display PC's parry and toughness on their portraits (residing upper left corner).

Enhanced Combat Tracker extension?
Enhanced Desktop extension?
What?

[Mask_of_winter]

https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?19202-Savage-Worlds-Enhancement-Extensions

[Mask_of_winter]

I agree that Parry could be changing, but at least I have planned to implement this in Enhanced Combat Tracker (not scheduled thou). The idea is to utilize effects much more so that they could be used to alter your stats temporary. But the truth is that it won't be perfect, but heck if it could help around 8 cases out of 10, it''s worth being extension :)

While I understand the appeal in having an automation feature similar to other rulesets like Pathfinder, I dont see how it would save me time or make my job as a GM easier. Your "effects" implementation is very neat but I find it takes me more time to implement during play instead of keeping it in my head.

Ok, Player 1 has hit Baddie WC with a raise, automation rolls the extra d6, 13 damage against Toughness 5 that's two wounds. What if Player 1 had The Drop on him and was doing a called shot to the head. Meanwhile, Baddie WC has Armor +2 active, the Hardy monstrous ability, his Undead and takes an extra +4 damage for a called shot to the head and takes only half damage from slashing weapon. Yes it gets complex. As a developer, I imagine this requires a lot of coding. But that's not my problem. My problem is I have to make sure all these effects are dragged onto Baddie WC and pray the coded part has been accounted for so the damage is correct. If Damage is auto-applied then it would take me longer to double check this, remove/add wounds, etc.

If all this automation is an option that can be turned on/off then cool, I have no problem with this feature being implemented. Frankly, having played 4e on FG where everything is handled by the software makes it very video-gamy to me. I prefer the more organic approach.

I have a table, character sheets, dice, books, cards and players, minis and maps... this is all I would need to play face to face.

Thanks for listening to my rant hehe

Oh and thanks for the great work Ikael!

[Ikael]

While I understand the appeal in having an automation feature similar to other rulesets like Pathfinder, I dont see how it would save me time or make my job as a GM easier. Your "effects" implementation is very neat but I find it takes me more time to implement during play instead of keeping it in my head.

Ok, Player 1 has hit Baddie WC with a raise, automation rolls the extra d6, 13 damage against Toughness 5 that's two wounds. What if Player 1 had The Drop on him and was doing a called shot to the head. Meanwhile, Baddie WC has Armor +2 active, the Hardy monstrous ability, his Undead and takes an extra +4 damage for a called shot to the head and takes only half damage from slashing weapon. Yes it gets complex. As a developer, I imagine this requires a lot of coding. But that's not my problem. My problem is I have to make sure all these effects are dragged onto Baddie WC and pray the coded part has been accounted for so the damage is correct. If Damage is auto-applied then it would take me longer to double check this, remove/add wounds, etc.

If all this automation is an option that can be turned on/off then cool, I have no problem with this feature being implemented. Frankly, having played 4e on FG where everything is handled by the software makes it very video-gamy to me. I prefer the more organic approach.

I have a table, character sheets, dice, books, cards and players, minis and maps... this is all I would need to play face to face.

Thanks for listening to my rant hehe

Oh and thanks for the great work Ikael!

Valid points! I like to clarify that I haven't finished planning the feature, I have only had some ideas, but definitely it's not going to be automatic. Instead it's planned to be helper. For instance in my games I have found myself counting damage like a child. For instance toughness 9 and he receives 17 points of damage, I am counting like... 9 shaken... 13 one wound... 17 two wounds... That's two wounds!! I want that to be little bit smoothier, but not automatic. As for parry and hitting, idea is that effects could grant you modifiers to your derived stats and traits: Going Wild effect adds +2 to your attack rolls and damage rolls, but your parry is automatically reduced by 2. When rolling your would see results like what was expected parry with all modifers (similar trait rolls represent their modifiers) and attack roll result. Of course you might have forgotten few modifiers, but like said, that's just helper, not automatic applier. And of course all this would be optional since this is way too big step to make everyone use. But like said, it's not planned just some random ideas from my head

[Mask_of_winter]

You always have good ideas and bring us features that make my life easier. As for a helper tool... have you checked this out yet? https://savagefgii.idea.informer.com/proj/?ia=83989

Because I agree, counting # of raises for wounds is a pain in the you know what hehe

[Doswelk]

My argument is most of the time, is it the same as if we were face-to-face? - Then it is fine as it is.... can it be automated? Yes but it will slows things down - why bother?

When I roll a d20 in the real world I cannot auto-add modifiers to the die so the result the die shows is included, I have to do it in my head. The fact that FGII allows this is great, however when a player takes 2-3 mins applying all the correct modifiers to the die roll in my mind is unnecessary, they could have rolled the die and told me the modifiers!

I already find that for some reason combat with FGII is slower than face-to-face (but I'd rather have a slower game than NO GAME!) so adding more automation ironically for Savage Worlds Combat I think would actually slow it down more!

Of course I know one day PW and Ikael will find a way to prove me wrong, me I'll just keep doing what I do best, converting official modules and making themes (which constantly have to be updated due to PW's and Ikeal's excellent changes :p )

In the mean-time for all our new Savages out there try this YouTube channel for help with FGII and Savage Worlds: https://www.youtube.com/user/doswelk

[Ikael]

My argument is most of the time, is it the same as if we were face-to-face? - Then it is fine as it is.... can it be automated? Yes but it will slows things down - why bother?

When I roll a d20 in the real world I cannot auto-add modifiers to the die so the result the die shows is included, I have to do it in my head. The fact that FGII allows this is great, however when a player takes 2-3 mins applying all the correct modifiers to the die roll in my mind is unnecessary, they could have rolled the die and told me the modifiers!

I already find that for some reason combat with FGII is slower than face-to-face (but I'd rather have a slower game than NO GAME!) so adding more automation ironically for Savage Worlds Combat I think would actually slow it down more!

Of course I know one day PW and Ikael will find a way to prove me wrong, me I'll just keep doing what I do best, converting official modules and making themes (which constantly have to be updated due to PW's and Ikeal's excellent changes :p )

In the mean-time for all our new Savages out there try this YouTube channel for help with FGII and Savage Worlds: https://www.youtube.com/user/doswelk

Slowing combat pace has never been my thing. Like I have mentioned, I tend to implement features to smooth up combat. That does not mean I am ready to trade quick pace with anything :) this is probably why this has not been implemented yet because it's hard to find golden middle way which would not show down game but would offer something useful

[Coanunn]

Slowing combat pace has never been my thing. Like I have mentioned, I tend to implement features to smooth up combat. That does not mean I am ready to trade quick pace with anything :) this is probably why this has not been implemented yet because it's hard to find golden middle way which would not show down game but would offer something useful

Ok, so being the new guy let me put a fresh perspective in place? If there is a variable values, can't I as the GM just track that actively in the Combat Tracker? Seems if I have an NPC cast Armor I'd just apply that to his toughness in the tracker. Same with Deflection to his parry. If a player makes a called shot to the head isn't it possible to code the additional effects into a pre-existing modifier string the player can apply to the attack? (I'm not 100% familiar with this but I know you can pre-define a modifier, not sure it could store multiple values)?

In the end yes, adding extra steps to the things the player or GM have to click will slow down that stage of combat vs someone saying "I attack orc X" and rolling. BUT Savage Worlds has that whole "raise/wound" mechanic that means someone is doing long division at the table and while we might joke about it there are players who can't do that easily in their head. The automation for counting that depends on finding a middle ground to set the target numbers complete with all those on the fly modifiers. Sure, you don't have a giant pool of hit points to track like you do in D20 systems but instead you have a lot more math (similar to the old thAC0 mechanic, a mechanic removed to cut down on math after a die is rolled).

Just my 2 coppers. I certainly think we should be able to find a middle ground, even if it means an extension with the common combat maneuvers like Called Shot, Wild Attack, Rapid Attack, etc as clickable modifiers to the automated roll of attack vs parry/ranged target number and damage vs toughness. Click on Called Shot head it adds a -4 to the attack vs parry roll, and a +4 to the damage vs toughness roll automations. Leave the other stuff like armor, deflection up to the GM to update in the tracker. Player clicks on Wild Attack it gives the +2 to both rolls automation, then applies a -2 parry that is removed when the tracker counts off the 1 round, freeing the GM up from having to remember when to remove the effect, etc no different than the automation that exists for persistent damage effects in pathfinder. No, I don't think this is necessarily easy code but it also isn't impossible to do in order to help those who want or need that level of automation.

[Ikael]

Ok, so being the new guy let me put a fresh perspective in place? If there is a variable values, can't I as the GM just track that actively in the Combat Tracker? Seems if I have an NPC cast Armor I'd just apply that to his toughness in the tracker. Same with Deflection to his parry. If a player makes a called shot to the head isn't it possible to code the additional effects into a pre-existing modifier string the player can apply to the attack? (I'm not 100% familiar with this but I know you can pre-define a modifier, not sure it could store multiple values)?

In the end yes, adding extra steps to the things the player or GM have to click will slow down that stage of combat vs someone saying "I attack orc X" and rolling. BUT Savage Worlds has that whole "raise/wound" mechanic that means someone is doing long division at the table and while we might joke about it there are players who can't do that easily in their head. The automation for counting that depends on finding a middle ground to set the target numbers complete with all those on the fly modifiers. Sure, you don't have a giant pool of hit points to track like you do in D20 systems but instead you have a lot more math (similar to the old thAC0 mechanic, a mechanic removed to cut down on math after a die is rolled).

Just my 2 coppers. I certainly think we should be able to find a middle ground, even if it means an extension with the common combat maneuvers like Called Shot, Wild Attack, Rapid Attack, etc as clickable modifiers to the automated roll of attack vs parry/ranged target number and damage vs toughness. Click on Called Shot head it adds a -4 to the attack vs parry roll, and a +4 to the damage vs toughness roll automations. Leave the other stuff like armor, deflection up to the GM to update in the tracker. Player clicks on Wild Attack it gives the +2 to both rolls automation, then applies a -2 parry that is removed when the tracker counts off the 1 round, freeing the GM up from having to remember when to remove the effect, etc no different than the automation that exists for persistent damage effects in pathfinder. No, I don't think this is necessarily easy code but it also isn't impossible to do in order to help those who want or need that level of automation.

Implementing hit/damage calculation is not impossible task but there are several exception possibilities in SW rules which makes it not easy (or intuitive) to use. For instance how can you define that ranged attack is against target number 4 or against target's parry (if shot is made while in melee combat). What about if GM decides that character's deflection would not benefit against attack type X since it uses trapping Y. GM should be able to manage these somehow. My personal solution is not to provide automatic hit/damage detection, but to provide Raise Calculator tool (see attached image). You can drag and drop parry/toughness values to target field and roll results to score and you see how did it go. Now I have also additonal plans like you should be able to double-click parry/toughness in CT and the value would automatically set to raise calculator's field. Alternatively you can just type those values there manually.

And one more thing, in addition to GM manually altering parry/toughness values (not that currently you CANNOT edit PC parry/toughness!!) I want make it possible that effects could be pre-defined to alter these values. So instead of doing the math manually GM would only need to apply effects to combatants and they adjust derived stats automatically.

[Coanunn]

Implementing hit/damage calculation is not impossible task but there are several exception possibilities in SW rules which makes it not easy (or intuitive) to use. For instance how can you define that ranged attack is against target number 4 or against target's parry (if shot is made while in melee combat). What about if GM decides that character's deflection would not benefit against attack type X since it uses trapping Y. GM should be able to manage these somehow. My personal solution is not to provide automatic hit/damage detection, but to provide Raise Calculator tool (see attached image). You can drag and drop parry/toughness values to target field and roll results to score and you see how did it go. Now I have also additonal plans like you should be able to double-click parry/toughness in CT and the value would automatically set to raise calculator's field. Alternatively you can just type those values there manually.

And one more thing, in addition to GM manually altering parry/toughness values (not that currently you CANNOT edit PC parry/toughness!!) I want make it possible that effects could be pre-defined to alter these values. So instead of doing the math manually GM would only need to apply effects to combatants and they adjust derived stats automatically.

A lot of the examples given for why this would be difficult/slow/tedious are rather situational rules. If this functionality was put in as a baseline option, then the GM has the option to bypass automation in those situations. Right now if a GM has trouble with the math necessary on the fly it slows down every combat roll, if instead it only slowed down those rounds where a special situation arose I think it would still be valuable. With that said I haven't used the automation in the other rulesets so I don't know if you have the option to resolve something manually or if once automation is included it must be an all or nothing type of change. As I said, new guy and I don't know all the limitations but what I do know as a developer is if something that happens 1 time out of 20 makes it difficult to code for the other 19, you set a baseline with an option for those situational cases.

[Mgrancey]

Hmmm. I agree that auto applying damage and such would be more problematic then beneficial as no has mentioned it (or I just missed it) but, the ability to soak wounds with a benney and vigor roll would also make it more difficult. I think that the most I would like is a report on how many wounds would be scored by an attack's damage. I haven't looked at the raise calculator yet, but plan too soon.

[damned]

At first glance the subject looked like.... How Combat Works in Sewage Works!

[Ikael]

Hmmm. I agree that auto applying damage and such would be more problematic then beneficial as no has mentioned it (or I just missed it) but, the ability to soak wounds with a benney and vigor roll would also make it more difficult. I think that the most I would like is a report on how many wounds would be scored by an attack's damage. I haven't looked at the raise calculator yet, but plan too soon.

Actually I believe the "how many wounds" calculation is the _thing_ here. I bet nobody has difficulties comparing attack roll against parry of 4 or checking if it went 4 points above that. However I understand that it would be neat if ruleset could state that automatically, but then again making sure everything is ok would be slower than just checking numbers manually. But with "how many wounds" the math can get "complicated" ~ what if the person is already shaken? What if not, the math itself is not "that bad" (but slow anyways). If you would just have simple visual indicator you could more easily see the outcome.

So my personal survival tactic is this:
* I use and require targeting (especially in SW4 it's easier to use) to highlight targeted character in combat tracker. This also shows his defense values automatically (if you haven't noticed this yet :)) So I can easily see what is person's Parry and Toughness by just checking up the bluish colored CT entry.
* I use Raise Calculator to determine how many wounds that attack caused. Now in latest Enhanced Desktop extension you can double-click or middle-mouse click any derived stat number and it will automatically know to populate Raise Calculator's TARGET field, then I just drag the rolled dice total into SCORE and see the output.