PDA

View Full Version : 0 hp



phantomwhale
March 22nd, 2014, 05:43
So 0 hp = unconscious for 1d6 hours in the Castles and Crusades rules, am I right ?

I note that in combat, if you hit a monster to 1 hp it says [HEAVY DAMAGE] or something like that, and at -1 it says [GRIEVOUSLY WOUND] [UNCONSCIOUS] or something like that.

But at 0hp, it doesn't say anything, and no "delete monster" icon appears. Furthermore, even if you deal an additional 1 damage, it never reports [UNCONSCIOUS].

Is this a bug ? Would it be better if 0hp now declares unconscious, and adds in the delete monster icon ?

Regards,
Ben

JohnD
March 23rd, 2014, 18:42
I personally would like this change to be implemented.

S Ferguson
March 24th, 2014, 05:36
So 0 hp = unconscious for 1d6 hours in the Castles and Crusades rules, am I right ?

I note that in combat, if you hit a monster to 1 hp it says [HEAVY DAMAGE] or something like that, and at -1 it says [GRIEVOUSLY WOUND] [UNCONSCIOUS] or something like that.

But at 0hp, it doesn't say anything, and no "delete monster" icon appears. Furthermore, even if you deal an additional 1 damage, it never reports [UNCONSCIOUS].

Is this a bug ? Would it be better if 0hp now declares unconscious, and adds in the delete monster icon ?

Regards,
Ben

Well, at 0 HP the character is still considered "conscious," but unable to do anything except crawl around and sputter cuss-words. A constitution check would determine whether or not the character actually passes out due to wounds sustained, the pain, and bleeding out. Since at 0 HP, The grievously wounded is correct in that from -1 to -6 that's where it places it (and should definitely say "Unconscious"). Since the hapless, stalwart hero is prone and not able to resist at 0 HP it , it's a moot point if something attacks him/her. I think the additional point of damage causing it not to display [Unconscious] is a bug, although I haven't noticed it up until you made me go though 12 billion combat scenarios hoping to reproduce (which I did). Peculiar. That issue was supposed to be crunched ages ago.. At least it's a minor bug. I guess for now, 0 HP is the "teetering point" between consciousness and passing out.

As for deleting the monsters, I have no problem with that.

Cheers,
SF

phantomwhale
March 27th, 2014, 06:03
The whole section on 0 hit points is very unclear on if and when the character goes unconscious. There is certainly no mention of a constitution check in that section, but it's not a bad idea for characters. And, of course, for monsters it's rarely a huge issue - they are "out of the fight" (unless magically healed) and can be removed from the tracker.

But yeah, the section reads...



In general, when 0 hit points is reached, the character or monster passes
out. They are not dead, but rather incapable of acting while passed
out due to blood loss and physical or mental damage. The character
or monster is unable to act and is unconscious or gravely wounded.


At this point, there seems no doubt that the general expectation is that 0 hp means unconscious.



Those so wounded, if still conscious, can do little more than crawl
from the battlefield or call out for help.


Huh what ? "If still concious" ? But you just said they pass out...



Those with 0 hit points recover consciousness in 1d6 hours


So they ARE unconscious then !



, after which they can move at ˝ their
normal move rate, but still cannot participate in combat, cast spells,
turn undead or any strenuous or demanding action.


Anyway, I'll write up the code to assume 0 hp means unconsciousness, as I believe that's supposed to be the general case.

S Ferguson
March 27th, 2014, 06:40
Like I said the rules are quirky. The text from the 5th edition reads:

In general, when 0 hit points is reached, the character or monster passes out. They are not dead, but rather incapable of acting while passed out due to blood loss and physical or mental damage. The character monster is unable to act and is unconscious or gravely wounded.
Those so wounded, if still conscious, can do little more than crawl from the battlefield or call out for help.Those with 0 hit points recover consciousness in 1d6 hours, after which they can move at ˝ their normal move rate, but still cannot participate in combat, cast spells, etc.


Italics mine. You can see why my answer was confusing. I say a constitution check is the way to go. There's no clear indication that unconsciousness was the default state. Get a constitution check, at perhaps a negative modifier (for taking all those wounds :)) and see how it plays out. I like it for the dramatic "I'm dying, so I'd like to recite a monologue I wrote specifically for this occasion." Plus it gives your players a bit of a break. It's kind of hard to fake a characters "death" without a deus ex machina popping out of the ether - especially when you can hit negative HP (by hordes of goblins because goblins always kick you when you're down) and start losing HP per round.

Regards,
SF

Trenloe
March 27th, 2014, 13:50
Anyway, I'll write up the code to assume 0 hp means unconsciousness, as I believe that's supposed to be the general case.
I agree.


I say a constitution check is the way to go. There's no clear indication that unconsciousness was the default state. Get a constitution check, at perhaps a negative modifier (for taking all those wounds :)) and see how it plays out.F
Interesting house rule, but none of this is in the RAW. So, Ben, please don't put any auto-constitution rolls or anything like that into the ruleset (e.g. similar to the 3.5e or PFRPG auto-stabilisation code).

JohnD
March 27th, 2014, 14:08
I like the Con roll to stay conscious... maybe be able to move 1/2 rate, but it should stay a House Rule IMO.

Targas
March 27th, 2014, 17:50
I won't mind leaving it as is, as it doesn't seem to be a big issue for me.
Instead I wonder if implementing fixed HP for monster encounters set up for an adventure would be possible.
It's quite frustrating if an adventure module sets the HP for an encounter to a specific amount for good reason
(e.g. wounded creature or similar state) to match the difficulty level to the party size/level and within game you
just have the chance to set HP to max. value, half value or random in general.
In addition this leads every time the encounters are done to manually calculate the experience points,
which makes it kind of pointless to preset the xp for an encounter in advance.
With preset monster hp, you can preset xp and run a much smoother game...

dr_venture
March 27th, 2014, 18:01
Since I can copy/paste this, I'll share my house rules on the issue in case anyone gets something useful out of it. It's based on the old AD&D1e house rules my group used back in the day:

The Process of Dying

A character may go into negative Hit Points up to the value of their Constitution score. For instance, a character with a Constitution score of 14 can drop to -14 Hit Points and still be barely alive – at -15 he is dead.

Further, the effects of the character’s negative Hit Point status are based on whether their current HP total is 0 HP to -50% of their Constitution value (in which case they are Disabled), or are at -51% or more of their Constitution value (in which case they are Dying).

Disabled (0 HP to -50% CON score)

When a character’s Hit Points go to 0 or into the negatives, but are not below half the character’s negative Constitution score (rounded in the character’s favor), the character is considered to be Disabled. Upon reaching this HP range, the character collapses wherever they are and must make a Constitution save to stay conscious.

If the character is conscious, only very limited actions can be taken, such as looking around, speaking quietly, holding onto something that’s not too big or bulky, manipulating a small object, etc. More strenuous actions (such as crawling, shouting, sitting up, etc.) can be taken only upon making an additional successful Constitution check.

Dying (-51% CON score to – full CON score)

When a character’s Hit Points go to below half the character’s negative Constitution score (rounded in the character’s favor) down to equivalent to the character’s negative Constitution score, the character is considered to be Dying. Upon reaching this HP range, the character automatically falls unconscious and begins the actual process of dying, taking 1 hit point damage per round as they fade towards death. This slide towards death can be stopped by a healing spell or someone with appropriate first aid skill (like a Cleric).

Dead (below full CON score)

When a character reaches a negative hit point value below their negative Constitution score the character is irretrievably lost to the ages and dead. Done for. Stiff. Wasted. Perished. Defunct. Inanimate. No more. Offed. Bereft of life. Cadaverous. Expired. Checked out. Bought the farm. Pushing up daisies. Shuffled off their mortal coil. This… is an ex-character!

Well, as 'permanent' as death is in a fantasy RPG.

S Ferguson
March 27th, 2014, 18:16
I like the Con roll to stay conscious... maybe be able to move 1/2 rate, but it should stay a House Rule IMO.

It was a house rule born of necessity due to the "squirmy" part of that book (Dr. V had similar problems with the interpretations of the EV calculations). Otherwise, feel free to have characters pass out at 0 hp. I usually am on the characters side (or running up their sides if they get out of hand) and felt this was an amicable solution to the difference between teetering between consciousness at hp 0, and being "Grievously Wounded and Out Cold" from -1 to -6. I agree with Trenloe though, keep it as an extension, if you feel the use of it is necessary (PF has auto-stabilization rolls? Cool beans!). Or. if you prefer, write up the new code for unconscious in an extension and give it to the community! I might even use it (hmmm... auto-stabilization extensions).

Regards,
SF

JohnD
March 27th, 2014, 18:31
Extension... sounds like programming/Greek to me.

S Ferguson
March 27th, 2014, 18:57
Since I can copy/paste this, I'll share my house rules on the issue in case anyone gets something useful out of it. It's based on the old AD&D1e house rules my group used back in the day:

The Process of Dying

A character may go into negative Hit Points up to the value of their Constitution score. For instance, a character with a Constitution score of 14 can drop to -14 Hit Points and still be barely alive – at -15 he is dead.

Further, the effects of the character’s negative Hit Point status are based on whether their current HP total is 0 HP to -50% of their Constitution value (in which case they are Disabled), or are at -51% or more of their Constitution value (in which case they are Dying).

Disabled (0 HP to -50% CON score)

When a character’s Hit Points go to 0 or into the negatives, but are not below half the character’s negative Constitution score (rounded in the character’s favor), the character is considered to be Disabled. Upon reaching this HP range, the character collapses wherever they are and must make a Constitution save to stay conscious.

If the character is conscious, only very limited actions can be taken, such as looking around, speaking quietly, holding onto something that’s not too big or bulky, manipulating a small object, etc. More strenuous actions (such as crawling, shouting, sitting up, etc.) can be taken only upon making an additional successful Constitution check.

Dying (-51% CON score to – full CON score)

When a character’s Hit Points go to below half the character’s negative Constitution score (rounded in the character’s favor) down to equivalent to the character’s negative Constitution score, the character is considered to be Dying. Upon reaching this HP range, the character automatically falls unconscious and begins the actual process of dying, taking 1 hit point damage per round as they fade towards death. This slide towards death can be stopped by a healing spell or someone with appropriate first aid skill (like a Cleric).

Dead (below full CON score)

When a character reaches a negative hit point value below their negative Constitution score the character is irretrievably lost to the ages and dead. Done for. Stiff. Wasted. Perished. Defunct. Inanimate. No more. Offed. Bereft of life. Cadaverous. Expired. Checked out. Bought the farm. Pushing up daisies. Shuffled off their mortal coil. This… is an ex-character!

Well, as 'permanent' as death is in a fantasy RPG.

You know, that's pretty much the way C&C handles the situation (except the heartfelt scam of dying to collect the insurance money, then being resurrected, then...) albeit giving everyone the same chances (perilous for beginning character - for example if using the Critical Hits or Fumbles Tables out of the FG CKG) by setting the default at -10, which is the average (roughly) on the bell curve of the 3d6 CON score. I'm not sure if you use the "wounds for HD" optional rule as well, giving them the same negative on their respective HD total (e.g. a goblin could go until -1).

Regardless, 0 you're hurting real bad (and I note you have a constitution check there as well), -1 to -6 you're out cold and grievously wounded and -7 to -10 you're losing 1 HP per round until you're Knocking on Heaven's Door at -11. Mama take this badge off of me....

And Extensions are programming. Just in little chunks. Like mini Chips Ahoy! or Mini Mini-Wheats (Mini^2 Wheats?). Drab and yes, Greek for some, but a necessary evil nevertheless.

Regards,
SF

phantomwhale
March 30th, 2014, 08:09
Thanks for all the input (and house rules !) guys. Most of what I was doing this for was for monsters anyway - I've no doubt every GM has his own rules around PC's going down in combat ! (And I'm certainly not going to attempt to encapsulate anything like that in the ruleset)

Whilst fixing this up, I also noticed the code to generate the "combat tracker" condition is totally separate to the code that generates the "chat window" condition when something is injured. That might explain why some wounds were coming in as "Heavy Damage" when in fact the creature was on 0hp.

S Ferguson
March 30th, 2014, 19:28
The "extended" rules for characters and dying is discussed in Part II: The Siege Engine: Death and Dying. In the FG CKG, it lists explicitly what the designers meant and what you can do at each "negative" you're at in combat. Just a helping hand if you're tweaking the rules. If you do figure it out do post it here in an extension format. No doubt others will find the same problem vexing.

Cheers,
SF