That three hour mark...

[S Ferguson]

Has anyone developed a suitable system that completes a scenario within a 3 hr. limit? I've been experimenting with different methods, even going back to the Greek three act play by Aristotle. Any help in keeping the session within this time frame would be much appreciated. I realize there are players that often do what you'd least expect, and that sometimes things don't go as planned, so I don't mind stretching it to 3 hrs. and 15 min. but three hours is generally what my group can play for, and I'd like to have them have the satisfaction of completing something each session. Like I said, any help is appreciated.:)

Cheers,
SF

[damned]

system? not sure...
players arrive somewhere and receive some clues (in your face or more subtle) and provoke the ire or interest of one or more NPCs.
Sometimes the NPC will prove to be an ally or at least friendly and other times they will be on the opposite side
An initial encounter or two to provide some more background or clues and to weaken the party somewhat
A puzzle or trap or obstacle to challenge their non-combat abilities
A final encounter to really challenge the party and achieve some sort of goal or stage or clue or item.

[Nickademus]

Pathfinder Society games, as well as other organized play games, are designed to be run in 5 hours. Myself and the local PFS GMs were lead to believe they were to be run in 4 hours by our ex-Venture Captain so we had a system that was effective at hitting the 4-hour mark. I don't think it would help you to hit 3 though.

Most of the technique was being properly prepared for the game as a GM (look up unusual rules in the ruleset that you know will come up prior to the game and such), making sure the players understood the time limit and conducted themselves accordingly (pay attention, make timely decisions or pass their turn until they could think of what to do, roll combination rolls such as attack and damage together, etc.), and quickly making a call when gray areas in the rules come up without taking time to look up stats and rules during the game.

Outside of good GM and player practices, the structure of a PFS game is roughly the same. The first fifteen minutes are briefing of the mission and introductions of the PCs. Then a series of four encounters linked together sequentially or loosely based on plot, with a fifth optional encounter to fill time if the party manages to quickly overcome one of the base encounters with force or cunning. Lastly, fifteen minutes for wrapping up the story and handing out rewards.

I used to break up the five encounter and surrounding plot into amounts of time I predicted it would take to complete and track how far ahead or behind schedule we were at the completion of each. (Don't feel bad if behind schedule as this is usually the case.) Just the act of keeping informed of the timetable allowed me to adjust things during the game to speed certain sections up or determine if the optional was possible.

Depending on the ruleset and the length of encounters in your chosen game, you could problem use a three + optional encounter story and reliably complete it in the giving time limit. Good advice on planning and keeping pace in the game can be found in various magazines and web sources from gaming companies. (Dragon Magazine has had a number of such over the years relevant to any RPG.)

Hope some of this helped.

[S Ferguson]

@damned Very Hero of a Thousand Faces inspired. How do you time this, though?
@Nickademus The PFS structure I'm familiar with but never had it completed within the time limit. You're right, though. Scaling down the encounters would impact time.

Regards,
SF

[Trenloe]

Pathfinder Society games, as well as other organized play games, are designed to be run in 5 hours. Myself and the local PFS GMs were lead to believe they were to be run in 4 hours by our ex-Venture Captain so we had a system that was effective at hitting the 4-hour mark.
Season 0-3 PFS scenarios were designed for 4 hour slots. Seasons 4+ are designed to go up to 5 hours.

Back to the original question... There are 2 main things - scenario design and the GM keeping things on track. I've frequently played and GMed at conventions in Australia where the slot time is 3 hours, where you need to get going on time, minimise chatter and keep the players focused. You also need to design your scenario to get the players into it quickly, try to avoid ambiguities in key clues that will have the players wasting time (unless that is your goal), don't have too many encounters (1-2 max on the way to the BBEG) - unless you are playing a system that gets through encounters quickly this is a major time drain.

I'm assuming you're running a campaign? If so it can be a bit harder to keep this type of format for a 3 hour session. Take example structures from TV series - there is an underlying story or two to the series, but most episodes are self contained - some advance the story line, others don't.

[S Ferguson]

Actually the television format was the one that appealed to me the most (at least the good shows that constantly proffer plot advances to the main story arc). The part I'm finding difficult is in keeping the episode within it's time slot. Broadcasters don't take to kindly at that. Oh and I will be running a campaign. I suppose it really boils down to scenario design, in my case. Arcs and subplots aren't really a problem for me, it's the little things that stump me:). Anyone know of a good freely available scenarios that fits this time slot? I'll go over the PFS 0-3 to see the "four hour version," and see if I can condense in the meantime.

Thanks,
SF

[Nickademus]

I think the Pathfinder modules We Be Goblins! and Dawn of the Scarlet Sun (both free pdf download at paizo.com for past RPG Days last I checked) have the potential to be run in a 3-hour block. We Be Goblins! is a very different kind of module based heavily on humor so it may not suit your testing desires. But the pre-made goblin characters speed things up.

Season 0-3 PFS scenarios were designed for 4 hour slots. Seasons 4+ are designed to go up to 5 hours.

Then my ex-VC misinformed me during Season 3 (before Season 4+ existed) that the scenarios were designed for a 5-hour slot and that was why games weren't getting finished in 4 hours. This lead us to make an effort to advise the local GMs how to speed up their games without rushing players. But that's neither here nor there.

[S Ferguson]

I think the Pathfinder modules We Be Goblins! and Dawn of the Scarlet Sun (both free pdf download at paizo.com for past RPG Days last I checked) have the potential to be run in a 3-hour block. We Be Goblins! is a very different kind of module based heavily on humor so it may not suit your testing desires. But the pre-made goblin characters speed things up.

I'll check them out. Thanks!
SF

EDIT: Off subject a bit I *love* the way goblins are depicted artistically in Pathfinder.

[Nickademus]

With their PF quirks, they are even more fun to play.

[S Ferguson]

With their PF quirks, they are even more fun to play.

The sequel (5th level) We be Goblin Too! is just as priceless as the first. I even picked up Goblins of Golarion, so the little munchkins can join one of my parties the next time I play Pathfinder..

[Blacky]

One thing I tested once is to knowingly limit the play time to IRL time. Meaning, the PC knows the thing end (if possible with a boom) in 3 hours real-time.

I don't like it, but it exists.

Otherwise, you'll need to have a modular nano-adventure to fit the time.

[levinth]

Could you plan a 6 hour adventure with a cliff hanger half way through and play it over two sessions? Might not be the answer you're looking for, but it might be easier to plan something along the lines of PFS scenarios and expand it a little than try to cut it down?

[S Ferguson]

Could you plan a 6 hour adventure with a cliff hanger half way through and play it over two sessions? Might not be the answer you're looking for, but it might be easier to plan something along the lines of PFS scenarios and expand it a little than try to cut it down?

@levinth I would (in fact that's foremost what I'm doing now) except the XP handouts, to be fair to the players, don't quite match the two sessions worth of play (do I award the XP the scenario is worth, or give more for things like, say, showing up, etc.) plus there's the dreaded (we flubbed the first three hour session - we'll need a dues ex machine for our next adventure. What are your thoughts on split adventures?

@Blacky. I tried a "you must complete this in 3 real-time hours" once or thrice, but it flopped - it fact the only time it worked was in the Esoterrorists but that's because I had it arranged that the PC's would meet up with various problems in their mission along a tedious timeline, which seems (I think) to be similar to your IRL time. If you could care to elaborate on how you set up *your* IRL adventures, it would be much appreciated.

@Trenloe What was the primary differences (aside from the obvious hour or two) between what I'm aiming for (3 hrs.) a PFS 0-3 (4 hrs) and PFS 4+ (5 hrs.). Could you so kind (and to tap into your large PF database) do your best to dissect the structure in these types of format. I'll move to 4 hrs. if I absolutely have to, but I'd prefer to stick to the player's wishes. I sent out an e-mail to my players and they grudgingly (*very* grudgingly) agreed to this *if* it can't be done in three. You've done it in three, so it's possible, and I do have a group that's dedicated and doesn't waste much time, so it's really more about appeasing them rather than myself.

Cheers (and thanks for the responses so far),
SF

[levinth]

I see what you mean regarding breaking the game in the first session. I guess I was thinking more along the lines of having some kind of hint towards the next session towards the end of the first session, for example the BBG showing up, but them not realising this was who the PCs were meant to defeat until the beginning of the second session. Admittedly, this formula would last for one or two sessions before it got old, but I'm sure you could invent similar "hooks" that could turn your 3 hours into 6...

I suppose awarding XP is difficult if you find you have a different group of players every week, I was assuming you had a settled group, which wasn;t likely to change much. If not, then yeah, you might have a problem...

Personally as a player I love a good cliff hanger ("You creak open the old dungeon door and find.... actually, let's leave it there for this session guys!") because it leaves me thinking about what's coming next between sessions, so when I GM my own worlds (and admittedly I don't have a vast experience of doing so, I'm only 25 ;) ) I like to try and think up interesting "hooks" to take me from scenario to scenario, often involving cliff hangers...

Oh and another thought... have you looked at the Pathfinder beginner box demos (https://paizo.com/products/btpy8q4o)? I've run a couple of them for complete beginners to PF and they took 3-4 hours IRL (including explaining rules, looking through character sheets etc). They might help create a formula for shorter games? Just a thought!

[S Ferguson]

I see what you mean regarding breaking the game in the first session. I guess I was thinking more along the lines of having some kind of hint towards the next session towards the end of the first session, for example the BBG showing up, but them not realising this was who the PCs were meant to defeat until the beginning of the second session. Admittedly, this formula would last for one or two sessions before it got old, but I'm sure you could invent similar "hooks" that could turn your 3 hours into 6...

I suppose awarding XP is difficult if you find you have a different group of players every week, I was assuming you had a settled group, which wasn;t likely to change much. If not, then yeah, you might have a problem...

Personally as a player I love a good cliff hanger ("You creak open the old dungeon door and find.... actually, let's leave it there for this session guys!") because it leaves me thinking about what's coming next between sessions, so when I GM my own worlds (and admittedly I don't have a vast experience of doing so, I'm only 25 ;) ) I like to try and think up interesting "hooks" to take me from scenario to scenario, often involving cliff hangers...

Oh and another thought... have you looked at the Pathfinder beginner box demos (https://paizo.com/products/btpy8q4o)? I've run a couple of them for complete beginners to PF and they took 3-4 hours IRL (including explaining rules, looking through character sheets etc). They might help create a formula for shorter games? Just a thought!

I'll definitely check these demos out.

I like the idea of cliffhangers, just as a fan of pulp fiction (and a closet GURPS Cliffhangers fan), but have found that in roleplaying games they tend to produce either the "awwwww, we have to wait 'til next week? can't we find out what's behind door No. 3?" or it's evil cousin the deus ex machina: simply, a fluke that saves the stalwart adventurers from the goblin hordes, about to be overwhelmed by the nasty little guys, then having the cavalry show up in the nick of time. At least that how it's supposed to work. Your example would work well in an investigative game (where what's behind door No. 3, will advance the adventure) but that's eliminating a sense of closure that I want to impart to players, each week (bi-weekly, alternating gaming groups BTW). I'll definitely give it more thought.

I mean, there's nothing wrong with the approach, it just has to be balanced with, say, the plot "hooks" you mentioned in which a cliffhanger leads to another adventure. I think that would be a step toward building multiple short scenarios leading out of a single (or multiple) plot points. I've noticed that in the PF formula, they tend to subdivide the play in five acts usually, given my limited PF play, with the forth act being optional. Given their success (I think PF is the most prolific FG game played next to SW), maybe they are on to something. Usually in a five act structure the climax occurs in the third or fourth act (the BBG has to show up somewhere), and the denouement and character growth occurs at the end. Now to compress that into three (grudgingly, as said before) or 3 and a half hrs.

Back to the books,
SF

[damned]

oh - another nice one i saw somewhere (and really should use more often) was the "random encounter" roll...
roll up your random encounter - or spec out to ensure it sits with your game - before the game.
instead of just rolling random encounters during quiet/travel/search times - randomly roll (or again choose a time that you think will be suitable based on your limited time frame) the *time* at which the random encounter will happen - eg it happens at 1hr 50mins.
Just go with it - the random encounter might have been a messenger/scout or another band of adventurers or your cavalry or a monster that directly fits the story or one that is completely random. By having the time random (but pre-determined) you suddenly throw in this unexpected element at a time that could be *really* inconvenient or fun or something else...

In terms of making it help you with your timeline - have 2 "randoms" prepped. If the party are struggling let the random assist the party past the current obstacle and if they are flying along this should slow them down or weaken them enough to get them on track.

[S Ferguson]

Good suggestions. I'll consider that. Premade encounters I assumed would be a given, but never thought to "randomize" them. :p

Cheers,
SF

[Trenloe]

@Trenloe What was the primary differences (aside from the obvious hour or two) between what I'm aiming for (3 hrs.) a PFS 0-3 (4 hrs) and PFS 4+ (5 hrs.). Could you so kind (and to tap into your large PF database) do your best to dissect the structure in these types of format. I'll move to 4 hrs. if I absolutely have to, but I'd prefer to stick to the player's wishes. I sent out an e-mail to my players and they grudgingly (*very* grudgingly) agreed to this *if* it can't be done in three. You've done it in three, so it's possible, and I do have a group that's dedicated and doesn't waste much time, so it's really more about appeasing them rather than myself.
There's no specific design philosophy to the scenarios - they are just designed to be played within a specific time frame. Its all about play testing an designer experience.

The main thing is that for a lot of these scenarios player choices are minimised. Just keep that in mind if you are using PFS scenarios as an example of scenarios designed for a specific time frame.

As you're playing an ongoing campaign then using PFS as a specific example may have limited relevance to your situation. Personally, I wouldn't try to do this if I was running a campaign - as it would make the game feel too episodic and trying to do specific things within a 3 hour window either seems rushed or not immersive enough. Yeah, give the players some action each session, but there is no harm in stopping the game at a point where there is a cliff hanger or suitable stopping point. If you are always trying a specific formula for a 3 hour session your players will soon recognise it and a lot of the enjoyment will go if they start to predict your session structure.

Campaigns are great because they keep going and in most cases don't have hard-fast stop points or specific session structure. Sure, work with your players to get a format that you all like but it seems like you're being asked to pander to their needs too much and break up the great tradition of an ongoing campaign - IMHO.

[S Ferguson]

There's no specific design philosophy to the scenarios - they are just designed to be played within a specific time frame. Its all about play testing an designer experience.

The main thing is that for a lot of these scenarios player choices are minimised. Just keep that in mind if you are using PFS scenarios as an example of scenarios designed for a specific time frame.

As you're playing an ongoing campaign then using PFS as a specific example may have limited relevance to your situation. Personally, I wouldn't try to do this if I was running a campaign - as it would make the game feel too episodic and trying to do specific things within a 3 hour window either seems rushed or not immersive enough. Yeah, give the players some action each session, but there is no harm in stopping the game at a point where there is a cliff hanger or suitable stopping point. If you are always trying a specific formula for a 3 hour session your players will soon recognise it and a lot of the enjoyment will go if they start to predict your session structure.

Campaigns are great because they keep going and in most cases don't have hard-fast stop points or specific session structure. Sure, work with your players to get a format that you all like but it seems like you're being asked to pander to their needs too much and break up the great tradition of an ongoing campaign - IMHO.

I feel the same regarding campaigns. The thrill of advancing through levels has always been a high point for me as well. While I don't feel the same about episodic structure (I for one watched ST:TNG, Stargate, Mission Impossible and numerous other "formula" shows that kept me glued to the set) I do have to agree that in RL, it might do to have a cliffhanger at a "commercial break" to end the session if time runs short. The impetus of the thread was how to time these games so they would end at the episode's conclusion, but if time's an issue, then stopping at the point were the countdown begins for the device that will cause contamination of the cities water supply would suffice. This is presuming of course they did the roleplaying legwork (and the compulsory "teaser" - a high action point at the beginning of an episode a la Bond or *good* TV shows that I always like to include).

Perhaps I am pandering to my groups. At some point, a compromise has to be drawn. I don't want to railroad the adventure; if it's more fun, I'd prefer to let the players do their thing until I can reign the story back in (a little limited railroading in effect), So it boils down to player choice. I'll keep that in mind. Thanks for the reply.

Cheers,
SF