PDA

View Full Version : Map Making Software Suggestions?



TalonKaine
March 5th, 2014, 00:14
Greeting,

I'm in the market for the best map fantasy based making software on the go and I was wondering if any of you out there have suggestions. Key points of I'm looking for are the following...

- Very graphical town map with lots of features for different building types from wood houses to brick castles and everything in between. Are there any that provide a type of 3D view of the map instead of 2D Aerial view?
- Ability to make region maps with key points like towns, rivers, mountains, etc.
- Dungeon maps for all the dungeon crawling adventures.
- Ease of use. I've never made maps before, however I am usually good at figuring out computer software. Would like a program that has tutorial videos online for example.
- Price. I'm willing to pay a lot of money if the quality is there, but of course I'd rather not break much more than $100 for the software quality I've come across online so far.

I've been using Dungeon Painter free online tool which is great, however I'm looking for something more detailed to create really eye popping maps. I have been looking at Pro Fantasy's Campaign Cartographer with Cities addon, however that is $100, and I'd have to pay even more if I wanted to make dungeons, etc. Any suggestions?

Thanks in advance to anyone who replies.

Trenloe
March 5th, 2014, 02:27
I heartily recommend Campaign Cartographer - you can get the "main 3" bundle for $99 which is CC3, Cities and Dungeons: https://secure.profantasy.com/products/bundle.aspx?b=BX12&c=USA

You can still do quite a lot with the base Campaign Cartographer package - but you will be missing a lot of extra symbols and some of the cool city features that make mapping cities easier.

There are 2 dungeon mapping styles that were part of the annuals, but are now available for free: https://www.profantasy.com/products/sub.asp Both need just the base CC3 package.

All of the maps in my Cartographers Guild album were made using Campaign Cartographer 3, with the odd additional theme: https://www.cartographersguild.com/members/trenloe-albums.html I have no artistic talent at all, so these give you an idea what can be made with CC3.

The main thing to keep in mind with Campaign Cartographer is that there is a steep learning curve - this is made a lot easier if you follow Joe Sweeney's excellent tutorial videos: https://www.profantasy.com/community/user_tutorials.asp Also the CC3 documentation is quite good if you use the step-by-step guides to get you going.

TalonKaine
March 5th, 2014, 13:18
Trenloe thanks once again. I believe I will try out the CC3 package you mentioned. Thanks for a link to the tutorial videos as well. The offer still stands sir.. I will have your baby at a moments notice.

Cheers.

Blacky
March 6th, 2014, 14:08
I strongly suggest keeping away from RPG mapping software. They're not that good, and are quite limited.

I would suggest using a true image processing software. The Gimp is quite powerful, and it's free (and libre). And can be found for most OS, you're not limited to Windows.

It will take a little work at first to set up what you need, and discover how things works. But it's not much more complicated than say, Campaign Cartographer, and the potential results are far, far superior (both in term of quality, and speed of map making, and re-usability).

Check the Cartographer's Guild, there's tons of tutorial for various map making (from the tactical battlemap to whole worlds, from region maps to town maps).

Take Gimp, add a few brushes and shapes easily found by Google, add a selection of tiling CgTextures, add CSUAC (plus google the Dundjinni forums for specific images), and you got a very strong foundation.

Plus, what you'll learn about graphics will help for any graphics, not just rpg map making.

Edit: an example of such a map (I'm using Photoshop, but Gimp is mostly as good for these kind of things, sometimes even better), that does not use very advanced techniques, it's mostly having the right sources, and experimenting with different styles until you find what works for you and your specific map:


https://blackhammer.franchouille.fr/_media/carte-empire-bonne-qualité.jpg


And another example, a subterranean battlemap very quickly done:

JohnD
March 6th, 2014, 14:53
Nice maps Blacky. Wish I had the time to devote to learning this.

Blacky
March 6th, 2014, 15:08
Thanks. It's really not that hard. There are a few things used a lot (layer clipping, masks, layer blending, alpha masks) but they're not difficult. Just need to get it once (and there's tons of tutorials on these), and after a few maps it's second nature.

And another advantage of true graphic software is that the same techniques can be used to create handouts for the players.

Trenloe
March 6th, 2014, 15:19
And another advantage of true graphic software is that the same techniques can be used to create handouts for the players.
Campaign Cartographer is flexible enough to do this too.

Yes, using a purely graphics driven application will ultimately give you more flexibility. Having said that, Campaign Cartographer is a pretty flexible application that can be used for more than just mapping - see this example of creating a number of different player handouts: https://www.profantasy.com/annual/2013/january13.html

One of the major advantages of Campaign Cartographer is how the symbols are layout out in catalogs and the specific mapping attributes that are attached to those symbols (primarily layers and sheets) - so adding a symbol to the map puts it in the relevant layer and sheet (for effects). Then turning on and off effects is a matter of clicking a button and the right effect gets applied based off the sheet the symbol is in. The sheets/effects functionality is an great tool that turns average maps/handouts into amazing images...

In the end, everyone will have their favourite application - and it all comes down to what you want to pay, how much time you want to take to learn how to use it, what graphics/textures etc. come with the application, etc..

Blacky
March 6th, 2014, 16:48
I always found a simple window file explorer (like Windows Explorer) best suited to navigate graphics resources (tiles, tokens, whatever). But that's me. Especially since I hear report on how difficult it is to properly handle bitmap resources with CC.

Pros of The Gimp: seriously more powerful, a lot more flexible, free, libre, multi-platform, can do other things, more tutorials, more resources.

Cons of The Gimp: needs a little more learning, takes more learning to do a very basic (ugly) map.

My advice would be to test it. Try to find 2 or 3 detailed map making tutorials on Cartographer's Guild for The Gimp, follow them, get a feel for the thing. If that doesn't work, CC is probably the best alternative. CC is overall costlier, but one will make basic map faster than with The Gimp. The Gimp is free (including resources), but will produce better looking and portable results.

There's also the matter of performance. I haven't touch CC for many years, but last time I tried doing an A3-300dpi map with it was out of the question.

Targas
March 6th, 2014, 17:26
I second Trenloe's view on Campaign Cartographer. Yes, it's a bit expensive and not easy to learn. But if you mastered the Fantasy Grounds SW, you will master CC. :-)
I value the object library and have attached a sample map, to give you an impression. It takes awhile to create maps, actually you can spend 1 hour creating, 1 hour optimizing and 1 hour rendering, but if this doesn't turn you off you can create quite nice results.
I'm not the painter having neither the time nor the passion to learn all the technique and Campaign Cartographer aids alot, if you got the heck of it.
Be sure to read the Essential Guide, the User Manual and best the Tome of Ultimate Mapping and watch some videos as Trenloe mentioned.

Trenloe
March 6th, 2014, 17:42
There's also the matter of performance. I haven't touch CC for many years, but last time I tried doing an A3-300dpi map with it was out of the question.
This map was A0 at 150dpi and CC managed it fine: https://www.cartographersguild.com/members/trenloe-albums-pathfinder+-+rise+++runelords-picture34710-catacombs-wrath.html

I threw that map together when I was first learning CC3 - I'd do things a bit differently if I was creating this from scratch again as I learned a lot during the creation of that map. But, this was pretty easy to create - all of the images in the map come with CC3 (no need to search around the Internet to find mapping objects), they have use rights which allows you to distribute maps you have created with their symbols (even charge for them if you wish). All of the walls are built in objects within CC3 - select the texture you want and off you go drawing all of your walls, then select the relevant effects (shadow, blend, etc.) that you want on a specific object type and CC3 will automatically add it - the effects are great and make it very easy to test different effects and see what the results are; work without the effects and then enable them to get a much nicer and professional looking map.

I would say that CC3 can produce much, much more than "basic" maps, you just need to look at the map gallery to see some great examples: https://www.profantasy.com/evidence/gallery.asp

Yes, a fully fledged graphics application will always be able to do more, but CC3 is definitely not a basic map making application...

Targas
March 6th, 2014, 18:27
Well, actually the mistake I made first rendering CC3 maps was to add AntiAlias, which not really required and will bloat up image size easily by double size. If you create pictures like the above with 5.000 pixels square it takes some passes. From about half an bour to 4 hours rendering can take.
Although I create 5 foot squares 50 pixels each, which leads to big maps, I haven't had an issue with a party of 4 adventurers downloading the maps to the client ingame. You just need to know that lots of big maps opened within FG will require lots of memory.
8 MB with 5 maps opened resulted in 1000 mb RAM needed. If you use a 32bit OS, you better close images which you don't need.

Targas
March 6th, 2014, 18:36
I would say that CC3 can produce much, much more than "basic" maps, you just need to look at the map gallery to see some great examples: https://www.profantasy.com/evidence/gallery.asp

Yes, a fully fledged graphics application will always be able to do more, but CC3 is definitely not a basic map making application...
To be fair it takes quite some time and experience to create such maps, but it would probably take much time using painting sw, too.

Blacky
March 6th, 2014, 19:00
I wasn't saying that CC can only do basic map making. Only that the curve for learning and quality of result isn't linear against the Gimp's curves. WHat I meant was, if one invest X hours of times into a product, he will get this result:

3 hours : basic but decent map with CC, nothing with Gimp
10 hours : somewhat OK with both
25 hours : nice with CC, very good with Gimp

Targas
March 6th, 2014, 19:09
With given practice, I would agree. Depends on how much effort and passion is put into map creating. As a player I would love to have nice maps, but as a GM lots of time is spent in giving players nice maps. Well, as a GM lots of time is anyway spent in creating a campaign and investing time in something you are interested in is never lost.

Trenloe
March 6th, 2014, 19:13
To be fair it takes quite some time and experience to create such maps, but it would probably take much time using painting sw, too.
Oh yeah, it's definitely an app you need to spend time with. I was just saying that CC3 can do some very impressive work and has some advanced map making features; I would say that for the majority of people you'd be limited by your own knowledge of the app rather than the actual app itself. So I wouldn't rule it out thinking that it wasn't a powerful tool for making maps and other RPG related images (handouts, etc.).

Joe Sweeney's excellent videos are a very good way to get into the app - this series shows how to make a multi-room dungeon in less than 50 minutes: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL1FFD4E50759762F1

Trenloe
March 6th, 2014, 19:15
And for those who want to use graphics application, search for the many tutorials online or keep an eye out for when this book comes out: https://quickanddirtymaptutorials.com/

TalonKaine
March 6th, 2014, 19:56
Thanks for all the suggestions people... really appreciate it. I will consider it all.

Trenloe, that Quick and Dirty Map Tutorial book you posted a link for looks amazing, and something I would greatly be interested in. I see that they fund raised a great amount of money for the project, however I cannot see anywhere on the site their current progress or estimated release date. Have you come across any of those details by chance?

Trenloe
March 6th, 2014, 20:29
Trenloe, that Quick and Dirty Map Tutorial book you posted a link for looks amazing, and something I would greatly be interested in. I see that they fund raised a great amount of money for the project, however I cannot see anywhere on the site their current progress or estimated release date. Have you come across any of those details by chance?
The most recent update (December) says that he was finishing up the first book manuscript and was hoping to have a print version out in the New Yearr, but apparently the final updates to the first guide are taking longer than expected. The original kickstarter had a delivery date of August 2014, but Michael is aiming to get some stuff out before then...

damned
March 7th, 2014, 00:19
i go back to one of Trenloe's earlier points - you can legally distribute (and even sell) those images you have created within CC - that is a big plus. you can of course do this with GIMP providing you havent used anyone elses work and if you have permission to use someone elses work and distribute you still may require some sort of permission depending on exactly what you want to do...
oh - I also use GIMP for lots of stuff and just havent managed to convince myself to part with $$ for CC...
i did kickstart with RPGArtKit and with the Quick And Dirty Map Tutorial and Devin Knights one so I prolly spent my money already :)

Bidmaron
March 7th, 2014, 02:23
I have to throw my hat in the CC3 ring. It is pricey, but even an artistically-challenged guy like me can generate great maps. When you go to GIMP or photoshop, not so much, and it isn't for lack of effort. I've just never been able to get there.

Sigurd
March 10th, 2014, 08:52
Different strokes.

Cc3 and anything designed just for map making will shape things to save you time but limit your style at the same time. General graphics programs, or even scanned physical artwork, will give you more freedom but force you to spend time and effort on tecknique.

What sort of maps do you want to make for what audience?

jshauber
March 17th, 2014, 16:12
My brother recently showed me how he is using GIMP to make maps. Very quick and easy, the layering makes sense and you can add items(rubble, chairs, tables, etc.) to the map as new layers and move layers around as needed.

Even has a shading/shadow function if you want to get that detailed.

I am still playing around with it but much easier to do than many others I have tried.

It has a built in grid function so you can lay that on the map as you make it to ensure the grid will line up when you get to FG.

The main bonus is the file sizes are quite small and won't take forever to load or stress bandwidth transferring. They still look really good when zoomed in as well.

Blacky
March 17th, 2014, 21:15
Indeed.

tseliger
March 17th, 2014, 21:17
Another generic graphics tool that I 'd like to throw in the ring is "Inkscape". It's an open source vector based tool and I use it to do my "old school" building battle maps for FG. It takes a bit to get into it, but it's time well spent.


An example:
6277

Blacky
March 17th, 2014, 22:14
Vector graphic software are very good, and Inkscape is. But there are also a lot harder to produce something nice.

For our purpose (making rpg maps), I think bitmap tools (like Gimp, or Photoshop from the proprietary über expensive side) are far far far easier.

Even for some type of maps, like the one you have attached, I wonder if Gimp isn't easier and faster. It's far easier to handle the scale. Getting things organized, on grid, squared is quite easy it's just drag&drop piece from a library into the image.

As a general comment, of course the best tool is the right one for you (or him, or her). What works best for one is by definition the best tool for one. If someone is extremely fluent in Powerpoint and can do good maps with it, no reason to change that. But for the initial inquiry, meaning “I don't know squat and I want to do rpg maps, both on the global&regional scale and on the tactical battlemap scale, where should I look for a software to help me do that at the best price and time investment?” then I still think something like The Gimp is the best choice all around.

But if someone wants to learn vector graphics on top of doing rpg maps, yes Inkscape is a great (and free, and libre) tool for some type of maps.

Trenloe
April 14th, 2014, 16:07
Some examples of the different styles available within Campaign Cartographer for making floorplan maps: https://www.profantasy.com/rpgmaps/?p=3094

And some other cool maps made by CC3 users: https://www.profantasy.com/rpgmaps/?p=3079

S Ferguson
April 23rd, 2014, 02:49
I highly recommend CC3. The learning curve is a little steep if you haven't used this type of software before, but it produces wonderful maps (as Trenloe has shown). It's well worth the pesos doled out.

Bidmaron
April 23rd, 2014, 19:20
Concur with CC3.

Can we make this a sticky? The subject of mapping software comes up at least every other month.

Trenloe
April 23rd, 2014, 19:36
Can we make this a sticky?
I don't think this is such a great thread to make a sticky. It only really presents 2 mapping application options and there is a lot of discussion that is not so great for a sticky thread as someone has to read the whole thread, with the laborious task of trying to get good information from the back-and-forth posts, etc..

A thread with an overview of the many different mapping apps out there would be cool - with a quick, realistic (honest & objective) overview (cost, learning curve, limitations, etc.) - and examples, or links to examples, of the application's output.

Trenloe
April 23rd, 2014, 19:49
Started a map making software overview thread here: https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?20879-Map-Making-Software-summary

I'm just putting it together at the moment - the first post shows the headings in a table that are needed to give details on the app. If you know of a map making application please post in the thread with details of the app - please provide the details needed to fill all columns of the table.

Magnatude
June 14th, 2014, 08:00
I use a combination of a LOT of different software. Here is my list...

CC3 (+almost all of the addons)
Fractal Mapper
Photoshop v7 (old.. but still good)
Portalgraphics Open Canvas
Artrage
Manga Studio
Dogwaffle
Xara Graphic Designer
Corel Draw
World Machine
Zbrush (lol, $$$)

There is nothing wrong with any other suggestions in the above posts.
Use whatever feels good to use. Remember to use a Pen/Tablet if you have one.

I use a combination of several softwares for one map.

example: For this map...
6770

I started with Profantasy's (CC) Fractal Terrains and made the entire world. Ran off an embossed grayscale and a color map.
Imported those as layers into Open Canvas (it handles 10000x10000 pixels)
After mixing the layers and ensuring the huge size and outlining the coast and rivers... I popped the image into Fractal Mapper as a background image.
Added Forests, City/Towns and all the lettering in FM... allows me to work on the entire world and export smaller clips (like the example image) yet able to go back and modify/expand.
I export from Fractal Mapper and open the smaller file image into Photoshop where I optimize it for jpeg into Fantasy grounds.

Fractal Mapper is Vector which allows me to get close-up and easy to manipulate.

Sometimes I just use one software, but that is rare.
Just try different stuff.

damned
June 14th, 2014, 14:23
and somewhere in amongst all that you still find time to game!

Magnatude
June 14th, 2014, 17:36
Heh, yeah...
You still have Towns to make, and the dungeons as well.

Towns and Villages, I use either CC3 With Cities addon, or Fractal Mapper. In another case I drew out a town using OpenCanvas, which was a lot of work.
Bigger Cities I tend to use Manga Studio or Open Canvas (these are usually simple-freehand because its faster for me).

Dungeons and Caves, I use everything that has a grid. I tend to stay with one software to build the areas, and only use one other (usually either Photoshop or OpenCanvas) to add a dirt/color layer.

Building Interiors are quickly done using CC3. Bigger Castle interiors I will use Fractal Mapper (it can use CC3 assets due to the agreement between NBOS/ProFantasy cross-grades). And these also get a PS/OC dirt/color layer treatment.

If I'm doing a Modern Game map, I use Punch Home/Landscape... SERIOUSLY, its got furniture, lighting and everything in 3D Topview.
I've even considered using it for some medieval homes by making new 3D assets (using Hexagon) Punch is rather inexpensive considering what you pay for drawing software.

Problem seems, it all depends on how much learning-investment you want to make.
I guess you gotta love to make maps, I usually have a lot of fun making mine, but yeah, its a lot of work just to learn the software.

There is always drawing on graph-paper with a dark pen, then scan it in. Alter the balance levels (to pick out the dark lines) and most software (Gimp/PS/OC...) can do that.

Maybe we should have a Map/Mapping Section here in the Forums?
I think there a lot of DM/GM's who can share their knowledge and why not here? Doug?!

Edit: I'll help out as much as possible in the Mapping Forum when He gets it enabled. I know how time-consuming Map-making can be especially for those never really using the different software out there. But any tips tricks that we can accumulate would be great for the community.
I have some new video/screen capping software so I'll post some vids of some of these tools in action.

Varsuuk
March 2nd, 2016, 03:57
Hey posting here since I'm not suggesting an app but asking vague questions ;)

I'd definitely spend the $100 in the trio if I could relatively quickly get up to making simple dungeon corridors and things like barns/stables common rooms. Better than line drawing but not overly detailed or colorful. Grey stone floors and walls or wooden floors etc think map on mat but with straight lines and some color and minimal texture.


That said, I've spent over 300 on FG and haven't yet used it (nor likely to use more than occasionally due to good friend holdout who lives far away and WANTS to travel over to game to be da e to face. To be far, I've seen him in person 2x in last year and we spent first 20+ years hanging 2-3 times a week...) but I did so to jump start playing and I'm a developer I like toys too.

I am hoping to get a weekly game going on FG and like bi weekly in person. Once I truly gear up, I will need the map tool for custom adventures. So will wait until then do simple maps where cant get close enuf from net.

I followed the Xorn video and easily cleaned up some DM maps from DDEX that while simple to others surprised the heck out of me that I was able to scale it AND clean up all the numbers and secret things from the map in minutes! I'm a spaz.

I'm going to be updating my old Air 2 iPad this March, I'll prob get another 128, or 256 if that's an option (I've got so many work books, music and DnD PDFs etc that at like 50gb free already after recent cleanup.) rumor has it that it may support a pen like pro iPad.

I'm no artist, but with that and minimal tool I could at least quickly create ad hoc maps as needed using hand 1.0 with gadget 6.0

If it doesn't include pen, heck finger drawing is prob still decent in pinch.

Anyone know of current tools for non pro iPad for drawing that might be amenable to mapping. If not then black and white drawing is fallback. Anyone know of tools for iPad pro currently that might be good?


Man I'm loving not having spare time between doing graphics tutorials and Xorn, Zacchaeus and DD videos on FG. I'm zipping through them, loving it. My first module is near completion and I've e en modified maps.

Have tons of ideas for some tools too later that FG inspired.

Too much fun.

Can't wait to play on it also, since will be DMing at first only.

Xorn
March 2nd, 2016, 12:30
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4-X6TQ_71VI

This is a video I made a long time ago showing the steps to make a CC3/DD3 map for an inn, from beginning to end (I had a lot of requests for it). I use one of the free styles that comes with CC3, and don't fast forward anything--taking out the intro and ending I think the map takes about 15 minutes to make, including render. I will throw my support in with Trenloe on the Joe Sweeney tutorials (that's how I learned) and agree that CC3/CD3/DD3 suite is a pretty awesome mapping software. I've used GIMP to make plenty of maps, and have a solid skill set with GIMP--I still prefer Profantasy's software for RPG map-making, especially when it comes to overland and city/town maps.

Varsuuk
March 2nd, 2016, 13:48
That is so great thank you. I think seeing the process will help.

Btw, anyone know if there is a way to favorite a thread or post? I find so many good tips and have to keep tab open or bookmark them to be able to find hem again. Memory and I are only the most casual of acquaintances, although for the life of me I cannot recall why that is...

Trenloe
March 2nd, 2016, 14:20
Btw, anyone know if there is a way to favorite a thread or post?
I don't think so. Your best approach would be to keep a small document of all of the links you've found useful. This would also allow you to order/label them by category etc..

LordEntrails
March 2nd, 2016, 17:03
<Happy singing!> I know something Trenloe doesn't know!</singing>



Btw, anyone know if there is a way to favorite a thread or post? I find so many good tips and have to keep tab open or bookmark them to be able to find hem again. Memory and I are only the most casual of acquaintances, although for the life of me I cannot recall why that is...

Actually their is, top right above the thread/first post. "Thread Tools" > "Subscribe to this Thread" From their you can add the thread to a subscription folder. You can create different subscription folders from that screen (over on the left, "Edit Folders") or from your Profile.

<dancing, just a little!>

Trenloe
March 2nd, 2016, 17:22
<Happy singing!> I know something Trenloe doesn't know!</singing>
But, well done young padawan. :)

Yeah, you could use subscribe to a thread, but just be aware that this means you'll be getting email notifications (or whatever notification preference you set in your profile) for new entries in these threads. You may want that, but you may not... That's why I didn't specifically mention it as all of the random email notifications do my head in.

LordEntrails
March 2nd, 2016, 17:53
Oh happy dance! Twice in one day? The stars are shining *G*


But, well done young padawan. :)

Yeah, you could use subscribe to a thread, but just be aware that this means you'll be getting email notifications (or whatever notification preference you set in your profile) for new entries in these threads. You may want that, but you may not... That's why I didn't specifically mention it as all of the random email notifications do my head in.

Not if you change the subscription. When you do the thread tool > subscribe, right there you can not only set the folder that you want the "subscription" to reside in, but you can also change the subscription type for that thread. I should have mentioned this before, but I was so happy with myself that I just had to say something before I got ninja'd!

OK, guess that makes it only once, and not twice, but :)

Zacchaeus
March 2nd, 2016, 18:04
Oh happy dance! Twice in one day? The stars are shining *G*

He will get you back you know :)

Ashekelor
March 2nd, 2016, 19:11
I also strongly recommend Campaign Cartographer. It does have a learning curve, but their tutorials will get you creating soon enough. As for three dimensional viewing there is an add on called Perspectives Pro. I have not used it so I cannot speak to it's functionality. There is a symbol set (and more) add on featuring the style of Mike Schley, a well known cartographer of fantasy based maps. For those who have not used it, I recommend it as well. Another item I use is The Tome of Ultimate Mapping. It has all the documentation you need for the main program and most add on programs as well.

While full fledged graphic applications do more, I always opt for programs that focus on exactly what I am trying to do. The entirety of the manuals and training videos is cartography. Don't get me wrong, I use GIMP, I just don't use it for mapping. Just my take on it.

Xydonus
March 11th, 2016, 11:03
I've got two map tools at the moment. Campaign Cartographer, and Dundjinni. Out of those my preference is Dundjinni simply for ease of use, and also because I've a much bigger art asset collection with Dundjinni than I do for CC, and I've found art assets for CC is hard to come by.

CC is good in that it makes clean looking maps, problem is the amount of effort needed to get around the interface. It's rather clunky and not intuitive. Making a mistake in CC is a pain in the **** cause it can undo all your work if your not careful. Another thing CC is good for is that if you plan to make a gigantic map, then CC is the one to do it with. You can still make big maps with Dundjinni, just not on the same scale with CC.

Dundjinni, which is old, no longer supported and a bastard to install, is easier to use, much easier. It's interface would be something similar to microsoft paint. It lacks a lot of the tools that CC features, but makes up for it by being able to chuck out maps fairly quickly, and if you spend the time you can make high quality maps using Dundjinni.

Problem with Dundjinni is getting it to install, since it doesn't support the latest Java installations. Word is though that Dundjinni 2 is in the making, so that may be something to look forward to.

Trenloe
March 11th, 2016, 15:29
... I've found art assets for CC is hard to come by.
CC3 accepts .PNG graphics format. So you can convert any symbol/texture into PNG with most graphics apps and just add them to CC3 as a raster symbol. There's no specific restriction for CC3.

What you might be confusing is finding a pre-configured symbol catalogue. Which, correct, these are much less common than just a bunch of symbol files. But, they are a nice to have, not having a symbol catalogue for your PNG files doesn't stop you using them in CC3.

But, for those looking for pre-configured symbols and catalogues, the Vynteri Cartographic Collection has recently been released in full CC3 catalogue format: https://forum.profantasy.com/comments.php?DiscussionID=5715&page=1#Item_0

And, of course, there's the CSUAC: https://www.vintyri.org/CSUAC/

kevdog45
March 16th, 2016, 21:24
I pretty much think CC3 is the best map making software. I respect someone that would go out and use Photoshop or Gimp and through trial and error along with file organization, create a platform to make maps, but if you want something that has all the tools pretty much right there I think CC3 is the way to go. It takes awhile to get used to the sheets and different functions but once you get to the point where you have a saved group of sheet effects for various types of maps you can really knock out some great looking stuff quickly.

Ken L
March 18th, 2016, 00:40
I use Gimp, my Wacom, and my brain. The later takes some time to produce something other than childish scribbles though.

Ken L
April 4th, 2016, 12:21
For those who like to Doodle with a wacom, I'd suggest Krita. It's been developing nicely, and is FOSS.

It's sort of an unholy marriage of SAI and Gimp without the picture-in-picture feature.

Varsuuk
April 4th, 2016, 12:53
I ended up getting another iPad so my wife could replace her wifi retina with my old iPad Air 128/Cell model... And I bought the new 9.7 Pro 256/Cell - I added the pencil to it yesterday because wanted to muck about then I thought... Hmmm maps?!

The Adobe sketch had promising graph option but it was only for drawing guide and doesn't save with the pic...

I know I don't need graph paper but I'd love that option as well for maps I want to print out for my own notes/use.

But in any event, any software recommend for iOS that can be used to hand-draw maps with?

damned
April 4th, 2016, 13:09
Hey Varsuuk I believe the Pro is very nice as a drawing/graphics tab.

Ken L what is SAI? Ive used Krita briefly but not in a while - I should try it again.

Ken L
April 4th, 2016, 15:08
Ken L what is SAI?

Paint Tool SAI

It's a Windows program that is geared more for digital painting as opposed to generic photo composition which Photoshop does. Things such as brush direction and rotation and a number of sliders to control the shape and behavior of every stroke. Krita is a gish of SAI and Gimp in that it has all of SAI's features with a few minimalist composite features to keep it painterly. It lacks the picture in picture 'mini-map' though, but I'm not a professional painter, but it's fun to sketch out my world maps in fine detail.

Hecklerus Prime
May 2nd, 2016, 23:52
Regardless of what you choose, it's going to take time and patience to really learn the ropes. With enough effort, you'll be making stunning maps eventually. See my examples here (https://hecklerusprime.deviantart.com/gallery/). The black and white was done on one of the first waves of touchscreen laptops (then called tablets, now called conversion laptops). The other was on a much newer Lenovo conversion tablet. Zoom in on this one! This map was eventually printed 3'x5' and made into our gaming table. Each teeny tiny town is clear, crisp, and detailed. You can get a glimpse of this in the southwestern Aldurian region. Unfortunately, lost the final render in a hard drive crash. One of the most depressing moments of my life, considering the hours sunk into that map.

The first map was made in the freeware paint.NET and the second was in Photoshop Elements 10. Nothing fancy. Just me drawing as best as I can. Admittedly, they're not the best maps on the planet and I'm definitely still learning some tricks, but one of the things I've never liked about mapping software is that the maps always look like what they are: a mish-mash of pre-generated images that only fit together because you've put them on the same page. There's something organic about a map that was drawn by hand, by the same person, in the same style. To me, attempting to duplicate that same effect in a mapping software would take the same amount of time and effort as simply learning to draw the thing by hand!

bestellen
July 7th, 2016, 11:20
Joe Sweeney's excellent videos are a very good way to get into the app - this series shows how to make a multi-room dungeon in less than 50 minutes: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL1FFD4E50759762F1

Salva
October 26th, 2016, 22:52
I pretty much think CC3 is the best map making software. I respect someone that would go out and use Photoshop or Gimp and through trial and error along with file organization, create a platform to make maps, but if you want something that has all the tools pretty much right there I think CC3 is the way to go. It takes awhile to get used to the sheets and different functions but once you get to the point where you have a saved group of sheet effects for various types of maps you can really knock out some great looking stuff quickly.

Havent used CC3 but as far as i saw it is the one that looks best.
In the category of free, take a look at this one: https://pyromancers.com/dungeon-painter-online/

Zhakathoom
October 27th, 2016, 11:59
But in any event, any software recommend for iOS that can be used to hand-draw maps with?

Ah, yes. I use Procreate. I'm not sure if it's the best map-making tool out there, but as far as drawing apps go it's pretty awesome. :)

- Z

//edit:/ I'm really fresh at this so don't mock me too much, and they are obviously not finished but here's some examples of how I'm using Procreate towards my first campaign:/

Myrdin Potter
October 27th, 2016, 22:22
As much as CC3+ is not the same as drawing it, I cannot draw very well and it does a very good job. With all the free symbols available for it as well, it really is very versatile in making many different maps.

seycyrus
October 28th, 2016, 14:36
...I'm really fresh at this so don't mock me too much, and they are obviously not finished but here's some examples of how I'm using Procreate towards my first campaign:/

Dude, you're an artist! Those are awesome.

bestellen
October 29th, 2016, 10:11
I am still playing around with it but much easier to do than many others I have tried.

It has a built in grid function so you can lay that on the map as you make it to ensure the grid will line up when you get to FG.

Zacchaeus
October 29th, 2016, 11:26
I am still playing around with it but much easier to do than many others I have tried.

It has a built in grid function so you can lay that on the map as you make it to ensure the grid will line up when you get to FG.

Generally don't draw a grid on the map; that way you'll have a much easier time putting an FG grid on it since you won't have to line up a grid. Usually chaps put a single guide square somewhere on the map (usually top right or top left) which shows what the grid size is.

Andraax
October 29th, 2016, 14:52
It has a built in grid function so you can lay that on the map as you make it to ensure the grid will line up when you get to FG.

Is there a drawing program that *doesn't* have a grid?

Myrdin Potter
October 29th, 2016, 16:25
The more I use CC3+, the more I think developers here suggest it to show what a really difficult to use program is like to put the UI in FG in context. :-)

All kidding aside, the learning curve for CC3+ was steep but I can hammer out a serviceable map in less than an hour now. I can also spend all day on one if I want it to look really good and match the module description.

Zacchaeus
October 29th, 2016, 16:43
Is there a drawing program that *doesn't* have a grid?

It's likely that they all have a grid but what I meant was don't export it with the grid. Not every package may have that option of course. I am assuming that bestellen is talking about CC3 which does have a grid and it can be hidden when exporting.

Andraax
October 29th, 2016, 16:45
All kidding aside, the learning curve for CC3+ was steep but I can hammer out a serviceable map in less than an hour now.

I can do a serviceable map in Gimp in under 10 minutes... :-)

Andraax
October 29th, 2016, 16:47
It's likely that they all have a grid but what I meant was don't export it with the grid. Not every package may have that option of course. I am assuming that bestellen is talking about CC3 which does have a grid and it can be hidden when exporting.

I know; I never export mine with a grid. It sounded like he was amazed his tool had a grid that he could use to help make his maps... I frequently use grid snapping to align features of my maps, but I never export with the grid.

Myrdin Potter
October 29th, 2016, 17:43
I can do a serviceable map in Gimp in under 10 minutes... :-)

I can make a room in under 10 minutes, but if I am trying to do more than a room and add furniture and sconces and lighting effects, it takes longer. I could not do it in gimp as I cannot draw. I am sure I could learn, but the time I spend on that is time I could be doing other things.

There are a few free texture and brush packs around for doing maps in gimp or photoshop, so I am sure if I spent time learning those I could be reasonably proficient in gimp. Or if I was just making a map like the old style AD&D ones, including being light blue to make it hard to photocopy. :-p

LordEntrails
October 29th, 2016, 18:52
... Or if I was just making a map like the old style AD&D ones, including being light blue to make it hard to photocopy. :-p

That's why they were that color? Something new I learned today :)

Andraax
October 29th, 2016, 20:32
That's why they were that color? Something new I learned today :)

Yeah, photocopiers at the time could not copy that shade of blue.

Myrdin Potter
October 29th, 2016, 22:50
Shows not only how old I am but that I tried to photocopy a map from that time at least once ...

I wish the cc3+ had a style that was old AD&D maps, right down to the color scheme. I will have to try and create one, I am flying over to Asia tomorrow and should have time while trapped on planes ...

Trenloe
October 30th, 2016, 07:01
I wish the cc3+ had a style that was old AD&D maps, right down to the color scheme.

You don't really need a style. Just set a background to the colour you want and then draw the symbols from the symbols\dungeons\filled\simple.fsc (black line drawing with a varicolour background) or Symbols/Dungeons/Filled/monochrome/simple.FSC contains black line drawing symbols with a fixed, non-varicolor white background.

If you download the "Joe Bardales' simple varicolor symbol catalog." ZIP file from this page: https://www.profantasy.com/annual/2007/december07.html there is a new symbol catalog (.fsc file) that takes the above monochrome symbols and makes the black portion any colour (varicolour) with a fixed white background. This allows you to make those classic maps.

Trenloe
October 30th, 2016, 07:10
A very quick example:

https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=15918

You're basically using the standard drawing tools in CC3+, with the previously mentioned varicolour symbols. Pick the colour that you want to use from the CC3 colour selector (remember which one you selected) and a fill style of Solid (make sure you see "FS: Solid" in the top right box in CC3). Then you can use "Box" tool to draw the background, change the colour to white and use the various drawing tools to draw you corridors and rooms, then change the colour back to that used for the background and load up the .fsc file that comes with the previously mentioned download. Then use the symbols to fill out your dungeon. Use the normal CC3 line drawing tools as needed. Pay attention to which sheet you put free drawings on, so that you can maintain drawing order. You won't be using any effects.

Myrdin Potter
October 30th, 2016, 07:48
Will try and grab that file before I head to the airport tomorrow. The main CC3+ activity for this trip will be manual reading and tutorial doing.

Trenloe
October 30th, 2016, 16:44
And some more Old-School symbols here: https://forum.profantasy.com/comments.php?DiscussionID=204&page=1#Item_0

Particularly the "Old School Dungeon Symbols - Deluxe Edition!" post towards the bottom of the thread.

The Dec issues of the 2007 annual has a nice style for this (does the colours, layers, door cutting, etc. for you) but it's currently only compatible with CC3 (not CC3+). If you're planning on doing a lot of this style and haven't already installed CC3 (not CC3+) then it might be worth you doing so and getting the 2007 annual.

Trenloe
October 30th, 2016, 18:04
Or you can convert the specific symbol style from CC3 to CC3+. Info here: https://forum.profantasy.com/comments.php?DiscussionID=6412

You'd need to copy and convert the following from your CC3 install directory to your CC3+ data directory:

Symbols\Dungeons\Annual Old School
System\Drawtools\Annual Old School VC
Templates\Dungeons\Wizard\Annual Old School VC.***
Convert the .FCT and .FSC files using FFIX (as outlined in the Profantasy forums post above) and save once you've transferred them to the CC3+ data locations.

This will give you most of what you need to get going: a Template for the new map wizard, drawing tools (for floors, rooms, walls, etc.) and symbol catalogs - which you'll need to open manually from the symbols directory.

LordEntrails
October 30th, 2016, 18:41
Awesome Info Trenloe, thanks!

Topdecker
October 30th, 2016, 19:02
15920

Artrage for the bulk of it, the border and lettering from GiMP. I started with a paper sketch, scanned it, and then dressed it up. I would hate to tackle a larger settlement, but for a small village, it is quick and fun. I keep meaning to write a quick mini-adventure for it, but that would lead to another map...

Myrdin Potter
October 30th, 2016, 20:08
My older daughter started taking art classes in college, so I can always enslave her. She is one of the players in my weekly game that I DM.

Nylanfs
October 31st, 2016, 15:43
The more I use CC3+, the more I think developers here suggest it to show what a really difficult to use program is like to put the UI in FG in context. :-)

All kidding aside, the learning curve for CC3+ was steep but I can hammer out a serviceable map in less than an hour now. I can also spend all day on one if I want it to look really good and match the module description.

CC was originally based upon an open source CAD program (unsure how much code is left). That's why it seems overly complex to novice users, almost every engineering RPG mapper that I have talked to has picked up up right away. :)

Zerbious
October 31st, 2016, 22:16
That's why they were that color? Something new I learned today :)

Yes... and in my field (civil engineering) we used to mark things on our plans with a light blue colored pencil that we didn't want copied/blueprinted or red colored pencil for things we wanted to show up in the copies.

NotRussellCrowe
November 5th, 2016, 16:36
For anyone looking into CC3 (like I am), this gentleman has a few videos showing what it can do with more videos to come as I understand it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vWOGrjgL4yk

So far he's showing off Dungeon Designer to make dungeons and floor plans but his intro video shows a bit of City Designer. Nice to see DD and CD shown off a bit as most videos I have seen are all for CC and building overland maps, but myself I'm more interested in dungeons and floor plans so these are just perfect for me.

Happy gaming!

bestellen
November 7th, 2016, 10:03
I am still playing around with it but much easier to do than many others I have tried.

Varsuuk
November 17th, 2016, 04:02
i so wish i had the time to play with this, i love maps. Although i'm a poor artist and have problems choosing between alternatives in most things... sigh...

Varsuuk
November 17th, 2016, 04:06
Ah, yes. I use Procreate. I'm not sure if it's the best map-making tool out there, but as far as drawing apps go it's pretty awesome. :)

- Z

//edit:/ I'm really fresh at this so don't mock me too much, and they are obviously not finished but here's some examples of how I'm using Procreate towards my first campaign:/

Mock?! Screw you :) those are beautiful. Excellent work. i bought Procreate but haven't tried much (on iOS, you do on mac or tablet?) - I forget, but don't recall seeing the graph paper option where it stays vs just being a visual guide?.. or did you load some of the addins i saw linked for it?

good work man,

bestellen
November 26th, 2016, 12:12
I am still playing around with it but much easier to do than many others I have tried.

NotRussellCrowe
November 26th, 2016, 12:33
ProFantasy is having a 30% off Black Friday sale (good for those outside the USA too!).

https://secure.profantasy.com/shop/default.aspx

Happy gaming!

Varsuuk
November 27th, 2016, 08:28
ProFantasy is having a 30% off Black Friday sale (good for those outside the USA too!).

https://secure.profantasy.com/shop/default.aspx

Happy gaming!

Prob won't be able to make anything due to time/skill but hey...


Gonna get the 3way bundle.
Going to get Dungeons of Schley (love his overlands, especially)

Anything else mega recommend if want to make dungeons and world maps (I'd like ability to make retro-Greyhawk ones eventually as well...is that in an annual i think I read?)
125-30% is expensive enough but will listen for advice.

lastly any reason to pay $10 for physical?

3 Way download of plus is exact same registration/upgrades as buying separately?

NotRussellCrowe
November 27th, 2016, 11:47
Hi, Varsuuk. I just purchased it yesterday and played a bit with it. You do get Schley overland symbols and styles included in the base CC3+ purchase, the Dungeons Symbol Set is only for dungeon and floor plan layouts. You can use them in cities and overland maps I believe. I'm also debating on picking up the Dungeons of Schley pack too as I really like his art.

Also, there are thousands upon thousands of free symbols and fills you can install.
https://forum.profantasy.com/comments.php?DiscussionID=1230&page=1#Item_0

The above constitutes many GBs of downloads so you can get lots of symbols for free.

Happy cartographing!

Kelly

LordEntrails
November 27th, 2016, 17:23
...
lastly any reason to pay $10 for physical?...

IMO, only if you are worried about PF not being around to get it for you later. You could also just get the download and burn it to disk yourself.

Myself, I'm hoping the CC add ons (specifically DD3) goes on sale tomorrow, but seems a little unlikely.

Trenloe
November 27th, 2016, 17:48
Myself, I'm hoping the CC add ons (specifically DD3) goes on sale tomorrow, but seems a little unlikely.

https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=16654

This also applies to bundle offers. See the bundle offers available to you by going to profantasy.com -> Service -> Login & Register -> Upgrades & Offers.

Varsuuk
November 27th, 2016, 17:54
Hi, Varsuuk. I just purchased it yesterday and played a bit with it. You do get Schley overland symbols and styles included in the base CC3+ purchase, the Dungeons Symbol Set is only for dungeon and floor plan layouts. You can use them in cities and overland maps I believe. I'm also debating on picking up the Dungeons of Schley pack too as I really like his art.

Also, there are thousands upon thousands of free symbols and fills you can install.
https://forum.profantasy.com/comments.php?DiscussionID=1230&page=1#Item_0

The above constitutes many GBs of downloads so you can get lots of symbols for free.

Happy cartographing!

Kelly


Cool, I asked because I didn't want to spend more on something totally worth it if I use it but very likely I may never get to it due to my job, family and lack of time management skills :)

But, if I needed to spend more to create the old time World of Greyhawk folio maps, I wanted to identify the product and possibly get another 30% off if can.Like said, last time I investigated last year, I believe someone told me some symbols I was interested in were to be found in Annual. I can only imagine I would have brought up WoG or some other TSR look since i had no exposure to anything else.

jajen2003
November 27th, 2016, 17:58
This also applies to bundle offers. See the bundle offers available to you by going to profantasy.com -> Service -> Login & Register -> Upgrades & Offers.

Too bad there's no Mac client. FG is the only app that gets Wine.

Trenloe
November 27th, 2016, 18:06
But, if I needed to spend more to create the old time World of Greyhawk folio maps, I wanted to identify the product and possibly get another 30% off if can.Like said, last time I investigated last year, I believe someone told me some symbols I was interested in were to be found in Annual. I can only imagine I would have brought up WoG or some other TSR look since i had no exposure to anything else.
Look through the various annuals, there are a few months that have different styles that compare/replicate with D&D styles.

https://secure.profantasy.com/products/sub.asp

NotRussellCrowe
November 27th, 2016, 18:07
Too bad there's no Mac client. FG is the only app that gets Wine.

I think this is a .Net app, you might be able to run get it to run with Mono
https://www.mono-project.com/

I've never tried and it's not stated on their site that they support it running in Mono so no guarantees that's for sure.

Trenloe
November 27th, 2016, 18:11
Do a search on "mac" in their forums. For example: https://forum.profantasy.com/comments.php?DiscussionID=3298

jajen2003
November 27th, 2016, 18:38
I think this is a .Net app, you might be able to run get it to run with Mono
https://www.mono-project.com/

I've never tried and it's not stated on their site that they support it running in Mono so no guarantees that's for sure.


Do a search on "mac" in their forums. For example: https://forum.profantasy.com/comments.php?DiscussionID=3298

Thank you both for the suggestions. We'll see how it goes. :D

Varsuuk
November 27th, 2016, 20:03
AHHHH found the art asset I was thinking about long ago - it wasn't World of Greyhawk assets, it was "old-timey" blue dungeons...

Prob can wait until I see if I actually use this app and THEN pay the full price if not on sale again.

https://www.profantasy.com/annual/2007/december07.html

Varsuuk
November 27th, 2016, 20:19
Look through the various annuals, there are a few months that have different styles that compare/replicate with D&D styles.

https://secure.profantasy.com/products/sub.asp


Since I do not know ANYTHING about CC (not past slight playing with as part of my old Forgotten Realms CD ;) from TST...), I presume the downloadable thing in link is only a portion of the "Old Style Dungeons" content in Annual#1? Could you (evne if you don't own but know what it might be) or anyone who has it describe what the difference is - atm, the only part of that annual I'd need is that one.
https://www.profantasy.com/annual/2007/december07.html


I'm NOT NOT gonna look at ANY other annuals... or I might spend more and I just can't this early in Month before XMas ;)

Myrdin Potter
November 27th, 2016, 23:29
Do the old annuals work with cc3+?

Zacchaeus
November 28th, 2016, 00:02
Do the old annuals work with cc3+?

Mostly no.

LordEntrails
November 28th, 2016, 00:44
Thanks Trenloe, I thought the CC sale was only on the items that showed a discounted price (the bundles). Greatly appreciate it. Going to go buy it now :)

seycyrus
November 28th, 2016, 02:39
Do the old annuals work with cc3+?

Not yet.

Trenloe
November 28th, 2016, 03:04
I presume the downloadable thing in link is only a portion of the "Old Style Dungeons" content in Annual#1? Could you (evne if you don't own but know what it might be) or anyone who has it describe what the difference is - atm, the only part of that annual I'd need is that one.
https://www.profantasy.com/annual/2007/december07.html
See three pages back: https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?20607-Map-Making-Software-Suggestions&p=297148&viewfull=1#post297148

heruca
March 14th, 2017, 15:06
Hi folks. I am creating cross-platform map-making software (for Windows and macOS), suitable for creating both print-resolution maps and lower-resolution maps suitable for use with virtual tabletop software. It's called MapForge (https://www.mapforge-software.com/), and it will be sort of a spiritual successor to Dundjinni, but with a greater focus on stitching maps together from pre-existing map tiles and then customizing the resulting map (with additional decorations, etc.) to suit the GM's particular needs.

https://www.mapforge-software.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/MapForge-Interface-Mockup-v2-Menu-1024x614.png

MapForge should appeal to GMs of face-to-face game sessions and to those using any VTT software, who want to create their own slick-looking battlemaps to visually enrich their RPG sessions (in any genre), but who find existing mapping programs (including image-editing tools such as Gimp and Photoshop) too intimidating/confusing/expensive.

I am currently running a Kickstarter campaign (https://kck.st/2ldOJOn) to fund the program's development. The software will be priced to be very accessible/affordable, probably $30 or so, but it's just $25 or $27 during the Kickstarter campaign. To help offset the cost even more, there will be at least 9 free content Add-Ons for it, covering various genres. MapForge will also offer a free level of use, so having a license won't be required to make maps with it.

Version 1.0 of MapForge should be ready to go on sale in July 2017. Shortly after that, MapForge will also have the ability to generate random "dungeon" layouts via Donjon (https://donjon.bin.sh/d20/dungeon/). And a companion utility app called Crucible will also be produced, which will allow users to create their own free content Add-Ons.

I hope you will all take a minute to check out the project, play around with the downloadable prototype, and if you like what you see, tell your GM friends about it.

Thanks!

--Hernan (aka Heruca)

PS: The campaign funded on day 1, and is now approaching 500% of the funding goal, with well over 1300 backers and 8 days to go. All of the Stretch Goals have already been unlocked.

celestian
March 14th, 2017, 17:59
PS: The campaign funded on day 1, and is now approaching 500% of the funding goal, with well over 1300 backers and 8 days to go. All of the Stretch Goals have already been unlocked.

Sucked me in ;) I love a simple/quick maptool generation program. I still use Dundjinni rarely and sure would love a newer version of that. It's so good to use for small encounter areas.

I use CC3+ right now for more elaborate stuff.

jasonthelamb
March 14th, 2017, 18:12
Just saw this on steam - if you like Pyromancer's online map creator, they've greenlit (early access) an online version!

https://store.steampowered.com/app/592260/

Klater
March 15th, 2017, 11:42
Just saw this on steam - if you like Pyromancer's online map creator, they've greenlit (early access) an online version!


Cool! Thanks:)

LordEntrails
March 15th, 2017, 17:38
Welcome to the community Klater, glad to have you :)

Varsuuk
March 15th, 2017, 17:47
I checked it out. Was going to bite but then read Mac and PC are separate licenses, he is willing to send you a new license if switch. That's really good for piece of mind for most. Unfortunately as some of you know,
i split my dev work between win desktop and macbook. So i'd need access to both licenses. Then on comments I found that you can only run on be of. I'm home sick so only skimmed, sent out a question to the creator. But if so, then doesn't bode well for my scenario.

so just a tip, he appears to be considering some license changes so do not walk away but be certain you only need to run on one pc before going all in.