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adammar
March 1st, 2014, 22:55
I know that when the rule set came out there were fixes and additional material planned but has there been any additional development? Does it keep up with the current version?

DrakosDJ
March 2nd, 2014, 06:44
From what I've been told, the original developer has decided not to support it.

viresanimi
March 2nd, 2014, 16:04
It still works fine. There was a few problems when 3.0 rolled out, but Moon Wizard fixed it within an hour of reporting it. That's what I call service!

Vires Animi

DrakosDJ
March 3rd, 2014, 05:46
Yes, the template is working fine withing the current production build. I was under the impression the the OP was referring to updates/bug fixes or improved functionality.

The M&M template is well done, but there is no current maintenance or support for it. As far as I know, SmiteWorks is open to someone else taking up the helm and supporting the template, but the original author has moved on to other FG projects.

Though I am a professional programmer, I haven't get the time to get into the LUA scripting language to code for FG. I have some ideas on how it could be improved though.

damned
March 3rd, 2014, 06:06
i dont think there was a big uptake on this ruleset which given the amount of dev time that went into it was probably a little disheartening :(

viresanimi
March 3rd, 2014, 11:01
Its a real shame though, because it's really well done. Much like Savage Worlds, once you buy it, everything you could possibly want to play it, is there.

psicodelix
March 3rd, 2014, 14:16
Hi all,

first of all, as developer of the Mutants & Masterminds ruleset I would like to thank you for your interest in the ruleset and the kind words.

The current status of the ruleset is the same as most pre-3.0 rulesets, it's working properly as it did in the prior version, but lacking the new improvements of version 3.

Concerning your question, the reality is that, despite the tremendous time and effort invested on it, M&M ruleset has been quite unsuccessful, maybe because this game system isn't very popular among Fantasy Grounds players or any other reason. I've talked with Smite Works in the past about making updates or addons to the ruleset, but in my opinion it is not worth the hard work. Most of you know or can guess how difficult and time-consuming the development of FG is.

Mostly because of this experience I decided to start my current project, Ruleset Wizard, that will allow users to update or create new rulesets, with full 3.0 capabilities and with a much smaller investment of time and effort. As you will understand I prefer to focus my work into something useful for the whole community. Also I hope it will allow me to update and maintain the M&M ruleset as well.

damned
March 3rd, 2014, 14:28
i am most definitely one (hopefully of many) who will support the ruleset builder. i am very happy just playing in my sandbox with the Castles&Crusades ruleset but your ruleset builder really has the potential to open Fantasy Grounds right up to the masses. i see many one off, or a handful only of, requests for this game or that - and there is no way that a dev could code these rulesets for anything other than love (or a bit of masochism). with your ruleset builder they can invest some coin and develop a workable framework for anything they like.
huge thumbs up from me for even contemplating something so complex.

Tidalwave0089
April 28th, 2014, 18:17
While I understand why you're taking that stance, but can't someone at least take the time to bring it up to date with basic FG utility? You can't move or resize the chat or modifier window, you can't set the tokens to scale to the map. As far as usability goes it's almost pointless to use the set except that it might understand the rules of the game. Note I'm not asking for a rule update (like erreta) or new books added, just that basic functions be brought up to date, I know that it might be time consuming, but it's a full retail product. (obviously my comment applies to all paid rule sets).

I too would like to see your current project finished (I'd love to use it if it's user friendly to create a ruleset for Mekton Zeta or Silver Age Sentinels), but speaking as a paying customer, at full price there's at least some expectation of basic upkeep.

viresanimi
April 28th, 2014, 18:26
I wholeheartedly agree.

This is something I've paid for and I would love it for it to be updated for 3.0. The most important thing for me is the formatted notes. I would love to that in M&M. And the ability to lock the text fields. They are always unlocked, which is a bit annoying, but manageable. I'm not expecting massive changes, but as above, it would be nice to have certain basic features added.

Vires Animi

Trenloe
April 28th, 2014, 18:37
You can't move or resize the chat or modifier window, you can't set the tokens to scale to the map. ... Note I'm not asking for a rule update or new books added, just that basic functions be brought up to date.
These items you mention were only brought into mainstream FG rulesets in FG 3.0. Most GMs have been using Fantasy Grounds for ages without this new cosmetic functionality.

FYI - you can set token scaling on the map by zooming in to the point that a token is the right scale on the map (zooming the map does not zoom the token), then right-click on the token and select "lock token scale", then zoom out again and the token scale will be locked at the ratio you selected.


As far as usability goes it's almost pointless to use the set except that it might understand the rules of the game.
That's a very strong statement to make. The 2 of the 3 items you list above are very cosmetic, with the third being alleviated by "lock token scale". Is it really "almost pointless" using this ruleset because you can't move or scale the chat window and modifier box? That would mean that it was "almost pointless" using any ruleset before FG 3.0 was released, right?

I just think you need to spend a little bit of time getting used to how the ruleset works, taking into account the pre FG 3.0 functionality. Most GMs who are familiar with pre FG 3.0 rulesets don't have an issue using the M&M ruleset.

Yes, it would be nice to have this ruleset have all of the CoreRPG FG 3.0 bells and whistles. Yes it would be nice for a developer to support this ruleset into the future.

But there is nothing "broken" in this ruleset as it stands today.

viresanimi
April 28th, 2014, 19:25
But there is nothing "broken" in this ruleset as it stands today.

True! But a little love for the ruleset would still be nice. Cause I like it a lot.


Vires Animi

Tidalwave0089
April 28th, 2014, 19:29
Just as my previous comment is my opinion, this is yours.

I am a new customer and as such every tutorial that's out there is for some instance of the CURRENT product, which is 3.0. I have NO experience with 2.0 only with the current product and that's what I'm addressing here, that it needs to be brought up to date. That's the point, that it's OUT of date and needs to be addressed rather than ignored cause it doesn't matter to everyone. I paid for my product and rule sets like everyone else and I should be able to get the same level of customer service others are able to get.

With all due respect I don't care what "most" GM's are doing or handling it. They've been at it for awhile. I'm new and all it's doing is confusing me more. I can't even figure out where "Manage Local characters" is saved. I made a character but have NO button in import it into a campaign, nor can I find the folder he's in so I can just move him into the campaign. The websites manual itself isn't even up to date, and now to my surprise it turns out full retail rule sets aren't maintained either. It's quite a bit disrespectful to update some rules for some and not for others, as if the money I've spent so far isn't equal to others or worth the attention. I came into this really excited about FG, I even went out and bought Hero Labs just to work along side it (which in and of itself isn't working out either as, maybe due to the same issues, M&M HL characters can't be converted to FG as far as I've seen from the tutorial videos I've watched.)

As for the comment of it being a cosmetic function, I highly disagree as it's too useful on the whole to call is cosmetic. cosmetic is just for looks or show, having tokens not take over the map, I can't imagine anything more necessary to the very point of FG than that, and after watching the vids on the wiki, being taught how to use this program through CoreRPG, version 3.0.2, it's pretty jarring to find the product I paid extra for to play my game and run it for others runs extremely different from the rest, and not by style (like pictures on the buttons or what they are called) but basic functions every module should have access to. It's not limited to the ones I mentioned, those were just fresh on my mind, someone else mentioned you can't lock formatting, and I just noticed the character section has no import function in a campaign. I'm sure there's more that makes it different that justifies the attention to paying customers. We deserve the same value for our money others get too.

To you personally, thank you for informing me of that work around. While useful, not all tokens are created equal, so since you can't lock each token seperately, it often leaves some tokens just right and others twice as tiny, this especially pertains to the ones included with this rule set.

As for the other two, actually yes I find the chat window TOO big for my needs. My screen is only so big and it's in the way sometimes, in fact since me and my players use skype we will barely use it other than dice rolls. But it's not the only ones, I've been fiddling with it since I typed this up and to make a point images added for map use can't be resized either as they can in others, this is also a hassle and frustrating for new customers getting used to a program that's been changed but some parts ignored. Again I'm sure there are other things missing from it added since 3.0 and there's every reason to expect the same level of service for the money I've spent as others have.

I'm glad "most" GM's who have been playing before 3.0 are used to these issues, but that doesn't mean it shouldn't be fixed and addressed. I shouldn't have to, as a new customer, learn how to deal with both 2.0 and 3.0 set ups since the over all product has been updated. This wasn't a free rule set, it was full price, I didn't see any disclaimer that it was old and not up to date, nor that it wouldn't be, so I had no reason to think it wasn't and I'm sure others here feel the same. You may not care or don't see a problem with it, but we've paid our cash just like others and we deserve the same level of service the others have gotten. Maybe it can't happen soon, but this and other ignored rule sets should be updated.

Trenloe
April 28th, 2014, 19:37
Fair enough, Tidalwave0089, I agree with the majority of what you are saying. I just get defensive when people use phrases such as "it's almost pointless to use the set" when, actually, it is far from being pointless - especially when the reasons being stated are, IMHO, pretty minor compared to the HUGE set of features that the ruleset actually comes with. In case you may have forgotten:

Basic Ruleset functionality:

- Custom skin and theme
- Character Sheet - with drag and drop support and auto-roll functionality for numerous checks
- Combat Tracker - to facilitate combat and track NPC and PC health and conditions
- Fights - combine multiple NPCs into a Fight encounter ahead of time
- NPCs - drag them from a supported library module or create your own for use in stories or fights
- Screens - place any image from the web or from a module into your campaign image folder for use in a story or to share with players when the time is right
- Notes - track important details as your campaign unfolds
- Story - create your own story outline and links to other stories, NPCs, fights or images or follow along with a pre-made store-bought module when they become available. Export your module for others to play.
- The Net - access your Hero's Handbook or other home-made or store-bought modules when they become available
- Token box - store any token images you find into your campaign token folder or within your general fantasy grounds token folder and link those with your NPCs and Player characters for use on maps. You can build your own or purchase them from the Fantasy Grounds store for activation within your campaign. Search the forums for lots of free and useful tokens and tips on making your own.

viresanimi
April 28th, 2014, 19:47
I can certainly understand the sentiment, that one would want the ruleset to be as updated and have as many functions as others. On the other hand what we are "entitled" to is a ruleset that works. Which is does! If it was fundamentally broken, then I would agree.

By the way, you can resize images in M&M. Hold CTRL down and mouse click / drag for a new size. This is a basic function in FG I believe. However the ruleset cannot reset to an image's original size. Again. Would be nice to have. But strictly not necessary.


Vires Animi

Tidalwave0089
April 28th, 2014, 20:12
To make it clear, when I say "almost pointless" I mean it from two viewpoints.

#1. For two years I've been running Mekton Zeta campaigns online for my friends over skype. They did their character sheets in Windows Paint, I hand drew some shitty maps (not an artist by hand) to give them basic room ideas and we ran the story by voice and our meh math skills with rolls. I viewed this program as a step up from that, a major boost, but with missing features mounting it slowly loses some of the points that make it better than not having it.

#2. What does it actually have to entice me to USE this rule set (outside of the 18 dollars it cost me and would be a complete waste to now ignore it) over say, loading up Core, adding my maps and tokens, and just having everyone use their sheets in Adobe, Paint, or Hero Labs, hell hero labs can allow me to make mid game adjustments and create encounters that look like they take care of most in combat stuff on the fly as I add info (I still have a lot to learn about HL, but it's promising) to run the game?

For me I care about the principle of it. This is just the sort of digital project you come into expecting maintenance on as long as it's still active and especially if you pay for it, but I also come at this because I care about function over looks. The issues I mentioned, even moving windows and sizing tokens to work on map grids is not cosmetic, it's the very point of a visual map set up like this. Heck, that's the only thing this has over what we were doing before, that everyone can see the map, where they are on it, and some automation of the rules, so it's annoying to me that they aren't addressing those issues and disrespectful to me they have done so for others.

As for what you mention, I haven't forgotten them, let's look at them though:

- Custom skin and theme = This is what I would consider cosmetic. In some cases it's even confusing, there aren't as many buttons and they aren't all in the same places (uniformity helps people get into something and transition between them) for instance we have a "fights" button the others I've looked don't but NO "items" button.

- Character Sheet - Useful but there's no way to import from "Manage Characters" so this and the NPC's page lose usefulness since that means I have to create everything in each campaign and if I have recurring characters I have to do it all over again from scratch making what was meant to make the game more simple (by making the work more digital) a hassle, if I'm missing something it's not touched on anywhere I've seen and NOT apparent. Also I see no way to access portraits like in Core.

- Combat Tracker - very useful

- Fights - Useful but still suffers from the import issues

- NPCs - same as above.

- Screens - what I consider the main sticking point of these sort of programs, but there is a need to be able to resize tokens and even the whole map still, which this rule set can't do. Also it seems limited on what " from a module " can get you as I can't just access any module I have, just saying, but not as big a deal.

- Notes - Useful but you can't lock the text

- Story - Not sure how to approach this one. Useful, but we've already established there aren't going to be more, so that no longer matters, and I see export modules for others to play. I could go on to say how these things, at least the first one, seem more like false advertisement, but really all I want is a function update, not a refund.

- The Net - See above

- Token box - This is maybe the only thing that works like it does everywhere else.

All I'm asking for is an update to current functionality for the money we've spent.

Tidalwave0089
April 28th, 2014, 20:21
First off thank you for pointing out holding CTRL can do that, that helps me a lot, but that's more to my point. As a new user I don't know all these tricks to using it old style and the tutorials I've gone through were for 3.0 functions, and why wouldn't I, that's what I bought. I did not, however, know my new rule set wouldn't be and it needs to.

As for "entitled to" I agree and disagree, if there was a warning it was old and not up to date, then my comments would be more in line of "would be nice," but I bought 3.0, I bought a rule set for FG, had every reason to think it was FOR 3.0, turns out it's not. If other rule sets are "entitled" to updates, then so should we. If 3.5 and Core, which come with it free of extra charge, are updated then surely a rule set you had to pay extra for should be just as "entitled" if not more so, to update.

As for the rule sets actual functions, I can't comment as we haven't started playing it yet so I couldn't say the rule set works or don't work, but what isn't updated is bothersome and has created more hassle in making my story work than it's taken out of it.



I can certainly understand the sentiment, that one would want the ruleset to be as updated and have as many functions as others. On the other hand what we are "entitled" to is a ruleset that works. Which is does! If it was fundamentally broken, then I would agree.

By the way, you can resize images in M&M. Hold CTRL down and mouse click / drag for a new size. This is a basic function in FG I believe. However the ruleset cannot reset to an image's original size. Again. Would be nice to have. But strictly not necessary.


Vires Animi

viresanimi
April 28th, 2014, 20:27
Having bought the d20 modern myself - which is in a far worse state than M&M in my opinion - it might be an idea, that rulesets should have a tag in the store, which displays what version of Fantasy Grounds it is updated for. Just an idea.

Vires Animi

Tidalwave0089
April 28th, 2014, 20:34
I agree with this, while it's just more respectful and professional to just update them function wise, this would at least solve some issues for new users. However I'd go one step forward and suggest that they might consider a price discount for them as well, especially if it's basically not going to be added to or maintained. And I'm sorry to hear d20 is worse off, but I'll also take that as a warning. Hopefully some positive customer support can come of this thread and both this, d20 modern, and maybe the others can have basic function updates. I care much less about adding books and rules to it than I do it just working like the rest.

Trenloe
April 28th, 2014, 20:45
- Character Sheet - Useful but there's no way to import from "Manage Characters" so this and the NPC's page lose usefulness since that means I have to create everything in each campaign and if I have recurring characters I have to do it all over again from scratch making what was meant to make the game more simple (by making the work more digital) a hassle, if I'm missing something it's not touched on anywhere I've seen and NOT apparent.
This works *exactly* like it does in CoreRPG 3.0. Manage Characters is a player functionality. It stores the PC details locally on their computer and when they login to a game and go to "Characters" they will see their PCs stored locally in the "Character Selection" window as "local character" - the player selects this character and the details are transferred from the player to the GM and inserted into the campaign.

Once a PC is within a campaign the GM can use the /exportchar command to export that PC XML and then the /importchar command to import into another campaign. Just like you can do in FG 3.0.


Also I see no way to access portraits like in Core.
The player can assign the portrait by clicking the portrait button and double-clicking an a portrait - the portrait selected will be assigned to the currently active PC.



- NPCs - same as above.
Export NPCs (personalities) to a module using the /export command. Open such a module in a campaign through the "Module Activation" window. This is the same in FG 3.0.


- Screens - what I consider the main sticking point of these sort of programs, but there is a need to be able to resize tokens and even the whole map still, which this rule set can't do. Also it seems limited on what " from a module " can get you as I can't just access any module I have, just saying, but not as big a deal.
Resize tokens by using the "lock token scale" as mentioned before, or use CTRL+MouseWheel on a specific token (either on the map or on the token indicator on the combat tracker) to change that token's individual "zoom" level.
You can resize a map as viresanimi says above. Hole CTRL and left-click within a map, drag to the right/bottom to resize out, drag to the left/top to resize in.



- Notes - Useful but you can't lock the text
Only a GM can edit a note that they create - even if they share it with the players. A note owner (the person who created it) can edit a note.

This is very similar to the Core 3.0 functionality. The only difference in 3.0 is that the GM can lock a player note to stop a player editing a note that they've already created. Personally, I would use this piece of functionality very rarely - I'd let a player have full editing freedom over a note they'd created.



- Story - Not sure how to approach this one. Useful, but we've already established there aren't going to be more, so that no longer matters, and I see export modules for others to play. I could go on to say how these things, at least the first one, seem more like false advertisement, but really all I want is a function update, not a refund.
This is describing the standard "story" entry functionality available in *all* FG rulesets - just the same as CoreRPG 3.0. Yes, there probably won't be any pre-made modules in the store for M&M (but you never know), but all of the other functionality is available as described - including exporting modules for others to play. Type /export in the chat window.


- The Net - See above
You or other community members can make your own modules (copyright allowing). Type /export in the chat window.

See the FG 3.0 user guide in the wiki for other "slash" commands you can use in the chat window: http://www.fantasygrounds.com/wiki/index.php/Chat_Commands


All I'm asking for is an update to current functionality for the money we've spent.
The only thing I see "missing" is move/resize chat window and modifier box, and the auto token sizing when a token is added to a map with a grid - but there are 2 other ways to resize tokens.

If you have other areas that you are not familiar with I suggest you start a new thread in this forum to get clarification on how to use this ruleset to its full potential.

Tidalwave0089
April 28th, 2014, 21:18
Ok, I just gave /importchar a try. I guess I need specific instructions. I made a character with M&M rule set in the manage character section named Zombo. There is a Characters folder in the data folder for FG with a sub folder for M&M, but he's not in there. Just a XML files for hotkeys and module state, I tried those nothing happened, Zombo was not imported so this doesn't seem to work. If it's gonna be this confusing and complicated maybe this should come with a special manual.

Is the portrait button something only players can see? I SEE no portrait button except in Manage Character mode.

This seems to be working, though again I only know from 3.0, which is what everyone is teaching to use. Without warnings we shouldn't have to learn both old and new commands if you're a new person. I take it you've been here awhile, you've used 2.0, I haven't so with no specific manual to teach me this one I have no way at all to know this, all the featured tutorials I watched mostly teach about the button functions, and again as above the /importchar command doesn't do anything, where's my character?

While I still maintain for the price we've paid for this we should get the same level of service and quality other sets get (even the included ones), this makes a difference to me, and finally makes this manageable. I'm still extremely confused about other things, but at least now I can use this for the intended purpose, but it still should be addressed.

Alright, that one solves my issue more or less there. I have no way of knowing what a player can and can't do yet. I have only been working with it in GM mode and when I tried to open a second copy to join my first one as a play, as the person in the tutorial did, the program told me I couldn't because they had the same product code, but if you say that GM created notes and story elements can't be edited by players then that solves that.

/export did appear to do it's function, though I'll admit I didn't save and test it to see if I could load it into another campaign...hmm, maybe I should do that...

Same as above

I guess I'm going to have to do that, expect someone else to teach me the ways of 2.0 and make a vid maybe, rather than expect to get the same service others are getting? while I'm grateful for that you've pointed out, I stand by my point and have more than shown that as a new person this sort of no warning/lack of upkeep has caused confusion and frustration where there didn't have to be and now either I have to try and get others to help me make up for that or wait til they decide to do something that should have just been default to begin with. Either way I do have serious worries about continuing to spend anymore money on Smite Works projects if they have no expectation of service or the like, to be fair.

Trenloe
April 28th, 2014, 21:46
Re manage characters - see how I describe it in my previous post. /importchar is only used for importing a PC into a campaign that has been exported with /exportchar

Start another instance of FG and "Join game" with a host address of localhost - this will allow you to see the players view, and select a PC from the local cache (produced with manage characters).

In the end, anyone who comes to Fantasy Grounds has to go through a learning curve - and appreciate that different rulesets do things differently. A lot of what you mention above is not "the FG 2.0 way" of doing it (nor "the old way"), it another way of doing it and is completely supported in FG 3.0 and documented in the user guides: http://www.fantasygrounds.com/wiki/index.php/User_Guides

Tidalwave0089
April 28th, 2014, 21:55
See, this still isn't making any sense to me. I tried /exportchar, but it doesn't show me the character I made in this campaign (Tammy) in order to export her. So I have no idea what you're talking about. You make it sound so simple but it's starting to sound like we're somehow using different programs.

Thank you for that. This will help me see things better, I can't understand why that version can see the portrait button and it could see Zombo, but I couldn't and couldn't make use of him and I'M the GM, I need it more than my players do, wouldn't you think so? I don't see the point to some of these build choices. I had the player version pic Zombo, Now I can see him and work with it, but why couldn't I just load it in from before and work on it as a GM? That's my job. It makes me wonder whats the entire point of a Manage Characters mode if won't let me load characters into a campaign as the GM.

Again, if this was updated the way some others are then it wouldn't be as confusing nor require me seek out more and more info and guidance. If it was updated and as clear as Core is (where the videos I watched showed me how to use it) my group would have been playing over a week ago.

Trenloe
April 28th, 2014, 22:48
It makes me wonder whats the entire point of a Manage Characters mode if won't let me load characters into a campaign as the GM.
Manage Characters is a player specific piece of functionality that is designed to be used by a player outside of the campaign - i.e. when the GM is not online and the player is not connected to the GM. It allows them to create characters, update their character from a previous game, etc.. Then, when they login to a campaign with the same ruleset as they worked on in Manage Characters the player will be given the option to load their characters from their "manage characters" local cache - which will be shown as "local server" in the character selection window.

There is no need for the GM to have this functionality as they have complete access to all of the PCs in any specific campaign by clicking the "Characters" icon in the top right. The GM can export PCs from a specific campaign using the /exportchar command - if there is not a PC name added to this command then all PCs in the campaign will be exported. The export is in the form of an XML file - it does not go to manage characters, so remember where you saved the file in the "Save As" window that appeared. You can then use this XML file to import the character/s into another campaign (using the /importchar command and selecting the XML file in the "Open" window that appears) or send it to another GM and they can import the PCs in the XML file into their campaign.

Manage characters is very handy for those players who have not bought the M&M ruleset. If they have connected to an M&M campaign in the past, they can use Manage Characters to connect to the player "cache" of that campaign (stored locally on their computer) and check their PC, add experience, make changes, etc. out of game - without the need to connect to the GM. Then, when they next connect to a M&M game they can select this "local server" version of their PC to play with.

I'll reiterate - the GM has no need for this as they have full access to the campaign. In addition, some players who own the M&M ruleset themselves might not use Manage Characters at all and might build and maintain their PCs within a campaign and use /exportchar to send their PC XML to the GM before a game and /importchar to load up their most recent PC after a game.

Tidalwave0089
April 28th, 2014, 23:07
Thank you, that actually finally makes this whole thing a lot more clear for me.

I'm still sticking by my original point, however. This is a full retail module at full price with no warnings about it's actual version. It creates confusion and lacks the increasing ease of 3.0 functions, and is an additional cost on top of the FG price itself. If other rule sets, even the free included ones, are worthy of update, then ALL rule sets especially the ones that come at an additional cost should be updated, it sends a rude message about the value of some peoples money or worth over others, it's unprofessional and frankly doesn't do them any favors. That's how I feel about this topic, that's where I stand, these work arounds will work for now but there's no reason why the extra money we spent on this should not earn us the same level of service others have gotten. And that's where I stand on that.

damned
April 29th, 2014, 01:08
Hi @Tidalwave0089 - unless the ruleset is updated to be CoreRPG based you wont see these features. There are other rulesets that also dont have these features. If you really find it doesnt work for you contact [email protected] and see if they will give you a refund.
The message you are getting might be disappointing but its not rude. Many companies dont provide any updates to products once they have been purchased, others do if you maintain a support agreement, and others do provide updates for a limited period of time. When you contact support perhaps suggest that they add a note to the older rulesets pointing out they are not CoreRPG based.
Savage Worlds is one of the most popular rulesets here and it does not have CoreRPG support today. I believe that project is being worked on by community devs and it is a huge undertaking.
Smiteworks is a small team and they have finite resources so not everything can always be done. To date every upgrade to Fantasy Grounds itself has been free to license holders - not just incremental updates but all updates.
Send the email and voice your concerns and see what outcome you get.
No one is fobbing you off we just dont have the answers you are looking for.

Tidalwave0089
April 29th, 2014, 01:36
I might see your point, except they've sent a precedent that some will be updated and others not, and yes that is rude without disclaimers, maybe you don't feel that way but I do. The reason why I even bothered to say anything about it here was cause I cared enough to see things improve, I didn't come here to about a refund.

Moon Wizard
April 29th, 2014, 05:21
We would love to update every ruleset to use the latest CoreRPG framework provided with v3.0.

Every ruleset we sell in the store had a developer who built the ruleset at some point, and we depend on them to keep them up to date. However, economically it doesn't always make sense for people to spend their time that way, since this is a hobby effort all around. Usually just enough money to keep people creating new stuff, if that.

The whole reason for the CoreRPG ruleset and the developer layering was to enable better updating going forward. It was all in response to users voicing similar concerns before. Now, we need the community devs to help us bring it forward. If I wasn't so busy finishing v3.0.4 and trying to get us up on Steam to increase our user base, I would be working on bringing some of the older rulesets into the CoreRPG layer we built. It's always been the challenge of new users/features vs maintenance/docs with a minimal team.

As damned mentioned, we're a 2 person company doing this as a part time effort. The ones that were converted are mostly D&D or Pathfinder, which own the majority of the market. The other 2 converted so far were done by me to help ensure that the CoreRPG was flexible enough to support other systems.

I'm not making excuses, just laying out the decisions that we have to make to keep the company moving. At the end of the day, we have to balance all the factors.

Our long term plan is to migrate all rulesets to use the new CoreRPG layer, but how long that takes will depend on community involvement in that effort.

Regards,
JPG

damned
April 29th, 2014, 05:27
Hey Moon Wizard - would it be worthwhile adding a note to the ruleset descriptions saying if they are CoreRPG rulesets or not?

Moon Wizard
April 29th, 2014, 05:37
Perhaps. I'll flag it to Doug, who manages the store.

JPG

Tidalwave0089
April 29th, 2014, 13:34
Alright, hearing you want to and have some intention to do so makes me feel a bit better about it. I do understand with low staffing and time, there are limits to what you can do and I can see where trying to get on steam would help increase interest especially after Virtual table top was added recently, but surely you can agree that with confusion for new users abound and want appears to be a lack on service would only serve to under mind the interest and attention you want to get for this product. Obviously this goes a little both ways, getting more attention could increase sales and draw in new devs, but at the same time lack of upkeep and confusion could turn off some, save for the most enthusiastic hobbyist.

That being said, legit question: Why is it each rule set module controls and dictates functions rather than that being handled by the fantasy grounds program itself? I'm no programmer so maybe I don't get it, but from my view it looks lik FG is just a "box" in which you set a rule set and all functions, rather than FG's being the functions and the rule sets just plugging into it and giving access to rules, changing theme looks, but all sets basically working the same other than theme dressing and game rules. Seems like that would have made it much easier to make new content for when all you had to do was make the rule set letting FG's control and dictate basic functions.

damned
April 29th, 2014, 14:05
@TidalWave - you can play *any* game you want with Fantasy Grounds.

How do you play around a table? You get some paper and pencils and erasers and dice and some rulebooks.
You describe whats going on. You might sketch out a map. You might even use some minis for tactical play.
Something happens and you roll a dice and consult some tables and you add some ability modifiers and subtract some challenge ratings and someone makes a determination - Success! Play progresses on to the next person.

You can do that in Fantasy Grounds. You can text chat. You can share images/maps. You can lay a grid over the map. You can pass secret notes to players - even secret images. You have a funky 3d dice roller for the 6 main dice and you can use the command line for all other dice. The GM can pre-pare info and with a single click change characters or throw text into the chat window that was spoken by the Guard captain as he denies you entry to the city.

Thats pen and paper role playing and exactly what Fantasy Grounds was designed to do.

Fast forward and now you have combat trackers, rulesets that know what bonus to hit a level 6 half-orc barbarian with 17 strength and gauntlets of ogre strength gets when flanking his opponent. There are 6 variables there just on the attackers side - plus the variables on the defenders side.

It has been mentioned on several occasions in this thread that programming a ruleset takes HUNDREDS of hours. Most rulesets contain copyright material belonging to 3rd parties. Rulesets that are for sale here have a large chunk of the $$ go to the copyright owner to pay for their IP. The remainder is split between SmiteWorks and the Developer. The Developer is usually working for wages normally reserved for the dark continent. It is done for love, for a challenge, because the dev wants the ruleset to be played. No one is retiring on money made from making rulesets for Fantasy Grounds. Even if 100 people went out and bought this ruleset tomorrow it would not be financial incentive to update it. It would get updated because someone has the time and the desire to do it.

If you play a ruleset like Pathfinder or Savage Worlds on here and then you go play it on another tabletop you will get some idea of just how powerful this product is. And Savage Worlds is not CoreRPG based. Its not that Mutants & Masterminds isnt powerful or doesnt do tonnes of stuff for you - its just not as awesome as the Pathfinder ruleset - which is given away for free!

You have stated your case and its been heard. The reality is - it will happen or it wont happen. It wont happen for $28. It will happen because someone has the capacity to do it. There are many, many rulesets here with way less automation and cool stuff than M&M and some with more. Many of these were coded by people for free because it enhances the hobby they love. I can see that someone has just posted a DCC game on FG Con - that will be a far more bare bones experience than M&M and Im sure people will enjoy it just the same. Step back and take a deep breath and look at all the features it does have.

viresanimi
April 29th, 2014, 14:43
That is so well stated Damned. M&M is actually a great ruleset and the fact that the entire Mutants and Masterminds basic rulebook is contained within the ruleset with a lovely reference window, makes it worth the money in and off itself.

Vires Animi

Tidalwave0089
April 29th, 2014, 15:00
Dude, first off I wish you hadn't have mentioned the copyright holders. No duh they are involved if they are charging for the rule set, but do you think Green Ronin would be happy to know that Pathfinder and D&D gets better treatment and attention from the devs then their product does? No, I think they'd be annoyed, I sure as hell would if one copyright holders product was getting better treatment than my own, just as I'm annoyed free ones get updated when paid one may or may not. I'm beginning to see theres just that same new gamer attitude of being happy with whatever little thing comes along instead of caring about the quality of the product for the money you've spent, maybe i'm just too old. If I'm the only one with expectations that paid content will grow and improve then fine, forget I said anything and I guess we can just hope this project will find a way to grow anyway. I paid my price, took a chance and paid for a product I was interested in instead of torrenting it and learned a lesson. I hope if I check back on this product later down the road it'll have grown and evened out. I paid for it so I'll still use it, maybe I'll use the ruleset, maybe i'll just stick to core, but if honestly if the attitude, especially from other customers, is "whatever, it's good enough," then I can't see me bothering to putting more into it either, both effort and money.

damned
April 29th, 2014, 15:25
@Tidalwave0089 - we obviously are missing the intent of each others posts. I do hope you enjoy your gaming here, there is a wonderful supportive and creative community here and Im sure you will find plenty of things to assist your gaming experience. regards Damian.

Trenloe
April 29th, 2014, 17:57
Tidalwav0089 - you've paid for a V1.0 product THAT WORKS. You are in the great position with generous SmiteWorks that *if* this ruleset is ever updated, to V1.1, V2.0, V55 you will get that upgrade FOR FREE. This, in and of itself, is great for the paying user - but it is potentially not so great for a developer who, as damned has pointed out above, basically develops a ruleset for peanuts. Upgrading a ruleset to use CoreRPG is actually a major task which, to be honest, gives very little change in functionality at this time. Yes, everyone who reads this thread knows that you disagree on this point - but please take it from those of us who have been around here for a while, and have used any ruleset functionality to the full, that it really is very little change in functionality. I'm not trying to make you change your mind, just ask you to listen to what experienced FG users are telling you - because I think we'll just have to agree to disagree.

The danger that you now have is that you might end up missing one of the best things about Fantasy Grounds - the incredibly helpful community. Everyone who has read this thread understands your position on this. But, going on and on about it may result in you alienating some people in the community and so you might miss out on great help. That's not a threat, that is just the reality. One of the two people who own SmiteWorks has replied to this thread so they are aware of your position.

I would like to see you you come down off your soap box, take a few deep breaths, play your M&M game with your friends using the M&M ruleset, ask questions in this forum in a friendly manner when you inevitably come across something that doesn't make sense to you or doesn't work quite how you expect (see the manage characters and /exportchar stuff I helped you with early in this thread).

If you don't want to put more effort into learning to use the M&M ruleset for your online gaming then I think you will be missing out immensely, and that would be a shame.

I really hope that you become an active member of this community and over time get as passionate about Fantasy Grounds as a lot of us are. We all had to go through a steep learning curve, and the community helped out a lot with that. I really feel that you're still missing how great the M&M ruleset is because you are basing a lot of your opinion off a video for a different ruleset. Yes, I understand your point about perhaps the entry should say "Not based on CoreRPG" - but would that not cause more confusion for folks not in the know and, being completely honest, would it have actually stopped you buying the ruleset? Or, perhaps, on the other side of the coin, rulesets that are based on CoreRPG should indicate that they are? Either way this might not mean much to someone new to the product.

Now, to answer one of your questions: "Why is it each rule set module controls and dictates functions rather than that being handled by the fantasy grounds program itself?" Short answer - flexibility and freedom of development. The base Fantasy Grounds application provides a framework for rulesets to run on top of and has a defined set of commands that ruleset developers use to produce a ruleset. Each ruleset is programmed in thousands of lines of code (in the LUA programming language and using XML for framework specification) and a developer can do a lot within that framework to make the ruleset look, feel and operate how they wish. If you remove some of the functionality written into the ruleset and put it into the core app then you are removing development freedom and flexibility. If you ask any experience developer on this forum what they'd prefer - less freedom of development, but simpler rulesets then I'd imagine most would say "don't take away my freedom" and would probably ask for more development flexibility with more functionality controlled in the ruleset.

Andraax
April 29th, 2014, 18:42
Oh and a BTW. I disliked the size of the chat window in the Castles and Crusades ruleset (pre-CoreRPG) as well. You can adjust the size by tweaking the "Scale UI" in the Settings page. This will scale the fonts up or down, making the relative size of the chat window larger or smaller as well.

TalonKaine
April 29th, 2014, 23:16
Well said Trenloe... I agree FG forums are the most helpful forums I have ever experienced. The community is amazing.