A Plethora of Extensions

[dr_venture]

Is there some way we can organize the communication about and distribution of extensions (and potentially mods) for FG? There are several extensions I'm interested in, and they all seem to have the links to their versions and the explanations of their current statuses spread across forums and discussion threads. My I humbly suggest that the extensions, their version, and their statuses be concisely listed somewhere on the site? I'd really like to be able to go to one page and see what I can use with C&C, what state it's in (for instance, the Towns and Shops extension is still pre-beta, but will soon be useful for my games), and any known issues (or even a link to known issues that I can pursue for extensions I'm interested in).

A concise overview,arranged by ruleset, might also help players select a game system they're interested in using according to the extra functionality the ruleset supports. Finally, a way to indicate when an extension's functionality - or part thereof - has been added to the ruleset it supports. I understand that this is the model Smiteworks would like to pursue in developing rulesets (people create extensions, and popular changes can be added to teh ruleset as time and user interest allow). I think that's a great idea, but it's hard to keep track of it all, even as a fairly regular user of the forums.

Eventually, a wiki will probably greatly help solve this, but in the meantime... can we do something to clarify the situation aside from yet more Forum threads with important info scattered throughout multiple pages and threads?

Yours truly,

Confused in California

[Trenloe]

There is usually a sticky thread in the relevant rule forum if there are enough extensions available for that specific ruleset. This sticky thread is used to keep track of extensions for that ruleset, versions and updates.

For example, there is a new one to keep track of extensions designed for the new FG 3.0 CoreRPG: https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?20320-FG-3-0-CoreRPG-Extensions In theory, most extensions designed for CoreRPG should work with rulesets properly designed and layered on top of CoreRPG. For example, the town and shop extensions are listed in this thread and should be usable with C&C.

[dr_venture]

I saw that thread - that's what made me write this post. There's never been any thread like that for C&C that I'm aware of, nor was there for Rolemaster when I used that (there is now, though). Even in your very helpful post, I had to click over to the thread for the Shops and Town extension and read through it to find that it's actually pre-beta. It would just be really nice to get the basic overview without having to read through all the threads to find out the condition of each extension.

I fully admit that my aggravation on the subject is due in large part that it seems like most important data about FG required searching through forums and reading pages of posts to dig out the current situation, as opposed to just having concise documentation. Or posting questions for somebody to answer, even if the question has been asked 100 times before, but the questioner didn't know whether the question had ever been asked, or what exactly to search for. So I guess I'm kinda venting, not bagging on you Tren (you're one of the especially good guys, sir) - at this point I'm kinda over-irritated when I have to hunt things down regarding FG that just need to be documented somewhere, instead of committed to the forums. Personally, I find the forums a fantastic place to discuss things and answer questions, but a really inefficient and aggravating place to find solutions that have been answered over time (sometimes multiple times as features have changed) during the course of a discussion.

Whine - moan - whine - moan...

[Trenloe]

Yes, I agree - it would be very nice.

But... someone has to do it - keep up on all of the posts, work out what is good/bad/doesn't work anymore, etc., etc..

FG old timers like us know that SmiteWorks is a small company and they can't commit resource to do something like this. At times in the past great members of the community have taken the time and resources to produce (and host) things like the FG wiki - but over time they move on and then they are left standing.

Doing something in the public forums is the best we can do - because it stays public and so it can be viewed and maintained over time as people come and go.

Perhaps you could take on the role for a while of working something out? Or recruiting some people who are willing to put something in place within this forum?

[Blacky]

Agreed, things are way too spread out and ill explained. A Mediawiki with a lot of templates to have the maximum informations on various creations would help a lot if properly maintained.

And that's for the main games supported (the ones with a dedicated forum). For every other games, or worse for non English production, it's a living nightmare.

[Trenloe]

Even in your very helpful post, I had to click over to the thread for the Shops and Town extension and read through it to find that it's actually pre-beta.
The post does say "...will release a beta in a week or so" but that was referring to the places and groups databases (which haven't been released) - the town and shop extensions are completely usable - there are minor cosmetic issues but nothing stopping you using them at all...

[damned]

One issue with posts is that if the extension begins to be worked on by another person he/she cannot go back and update the initial post. Some which are maintained consistently by one person can keep updating the first post with the current info but that is often not the case.
I wonder if an extension library could be created? Similar to the Community Ruleset Library?

[dr_venture]

The core problem, in my mind, is that the Forums encourage a running dialog... which is excellent for running dialogs (yeah, baby), but not so good for concisely communicating a definitive status or condition. The longer the conversation goes on (which means it's a productive conversation for the most part), the less useful the thread's ability to communicate concise and definitive information without wading through the whole conversation. Half the time I read something later in the conversation, and it's referencing discussions that occurred some pages previously, requiring a bunch of reading just to get a single nugget of information. It's like if every time you wanted to know the status of a project at work, you were required to watch a video of the previous day's 2 hour project meeting, instead of getting a 1 sentence summery from your co-worker. The information is all there, it's just really inconvenient to sort through.

I would actually be happy to manage some sort of page that collected official statuses of extensions and such - once the page is initially set up, there should only be occasional updates required. I think the forum could be used in a way similar to what is being done now... but I would argue that the "thread" containing the post should not allow discussion, and the only additional posts should be by the page admin, if at all. it should be used for posting info summaries, not for discussing them - discussions can take place in other threads that anyone is free to start and participate in. Perhaps that would be the extent of the "replies" commonly made to the initial post: they could be links to relevant conversations in other threads for those who want to dig deeper into a subject.

The only other thing I'd add is that this needs to be a job which is not just handled by "whoever" and falls through the cracks if they get busy - someone (be it Smiteworks or long-term community folks) needs to make sure that it is being dealt with. But that said, I don't think it should be a lot of work after the initial setup.

What do you think - does that make sense as a solution for the short term? Is that even possible to do with this forum?

[damned]

you could handle that with a forum thread that only one person (or one small group of mods) could post to. They just continually add or replace the attachment and add to or update the associated text in the single post. the existing threads would continue the productive dialogue but the nuggets would all be in the separate thread.
have one stickied post in each ruleset or forum or have a separate forum for these types of posts.
thats one possibility... im sure there are others - perhaps if the library could also have an accompanying release notes that you could read online without having to downloading the whole thing to find the notes.

[dr_venture]

That's just what I was thinking, damned.

[dr_venture]

Sadly, the thread for Tenians Language Chat Extension for select FG 3.0 rulesets (https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?20332-Tenians-Language-Chat-Extension-for-select-FG-3-0-rulesets) is a great example of why forums are such bad places to keep track of this stuff - somehow I missed the entire post about the 3.2 release of that extension and all the fantastic new features Trenloe included (you hunka manly-man developer, you!)... and that thread is one I'm following with a lot of interest, too.

Is there a service on the web somewhere for distributing versioned software that is free and easy to use for FG purposes? Something that allows users to subscribe to specific titles/software widgets and alerts them whenever a new version is released?

[Trenloe]

Is there a service on the web somewhere for distributing versioned software that is free and easy to use for FG purposes?
Good idea. But, again we get down to the issue that someone needs to own this and keep it up-to-date and not disappear in a years time so no one can maintain it. If Smiteworks own it then fine - but keeping up on all of the community rulesets and extensions is a huge undertaking and I can also understand that Smiteworks might not want to take this on as it can be seen by a lot of people that the stuff they control on such a website would be Smitework approved rulesets and extensions and hence their responsibility to provide support if they go wrong.


Something that allows users to subscribe to specific titles/software widgets and alerts them whenever a new version is released?
We kinda have this now, but one other thing that might be causing you issues in not knowing about updates at the moment is that there appears to be a few users are not receiving email updates when threads have new posts - so this is certainly not helping.

[dr_venture]

Tren... you're in England now? Weren't you in Denver not that long ago? You do get around!


someone needs to own this and keep it up-to-date and not disappear in a years time so no one can maintain it.

Hmmm... well, I just figure that at least if the web mechanism for distributing versioned software could be identified, then the community could adopt it as the preferred method of tracking versions/distributing software. Then use consistent use of that mechanism could be group enforced by the community... in theory. If that failed, the fallback would just be what we have now, which seems like the worst scenario. That said, I haven't used any of these web-based software distribution services, so I don't really know what I'm talking about in regards to overhead and management. No matter what mechanism we use, it has to be maintained, and if not by Smiteworks, then by the FG community. If the mechanism is a good one, I would hope it would be as easy to maintain by the community as the forums.

But I'm not trying to start an argument on the point - and I could certainly be totally wrong on this.


We kinda have this now, but one other thing that might be causing you issues in not knowing about updates at the moment is that there appears to be a few users are not receiving email updates when threads have new posts - so this is certainly not helping.

Agreed - I think it's because you get one email telling you that a forum topic has been updated, then no more emails until you visit the thread on the web site. So 5 updates might come in, but you just get the first email. I would think that would still be enough, but I keep somehow missing things in especially active threads. Ah well.

[damned]

Tren... you're in England now? Weren't you in Denver not that long ago? You do get around!


kicked him out.
id like to say the aussies did too but sadly he got out first!

alright so i may be embellishing a little :)

[Nickademus]

Just have the dev of an extension collect names as a 'mailing list' to send out messages upon a version release. It would be easier for each dev to keep track of the handful for that extension than for a single person to keep track of all the extension updates.

Regardless, usually the first post of a thread is updated to reflect new versions. Even if you miss the announcement, you can always scan the first posts regularly of the ones you are interested in.

[Blacky]

Good idea. But, again we get down to the issue that someone needs to own this and keep it up-to-date and not disappear in a years time so no one can maintain it.
It would be better than nothing but the right way would be to have one place for updates, but each author/maintainer ping this place himself for his own product (having one or two meta-maintainers to update this central place by themselves would inevitably lead to abandonment issues).

It would still be difficult to reach all the people that aren't or can't be on these forums, but it's still better than the alternative.


If Smiteworks own it then fine - but keeping up on all of the community rulesets and extensions is a huge undertaking and I can also understand that Smiteworks might not want to take this on as it can be seen by a lot of people that the stuff they control on such a website would be Smitework approved rulesets and extensions and hence their responsibility to provide support if they go wrong.
SmiteWorks can act has an host. Host things that are purely community based, and stated as such.

[Andraax]

Is there a service on the web somewhere for distributing versioned software that is free and easy to use for FG purposes? Something that allows users to subscribe to specific titles/software widgets and alerts them whenever a new version is released?

Source Forge.

[Blacky]

Sourceforge was good. Until they choose to add spyware inside the download of some softwares. Forget Sourceforge.