FG 2 Savage Worlds User Guide?

[AstaSyneri]

Hi!

I am a dinosaur. I like manuals. Written manuals. Maybe illustrated.

AFAICS there currently are only user guides for D&D 3.5 (https://www.fantasygrounds.com/userguide35E/) and D&D 4.0 (https://www.fantasygrounds.com/userguide4E/), likely because they are the basic rule sets that FG 2 ships with.

As a new FG 2 (Savage Worlds) user I find myself a little bit overwhelmed, especially when I try to find information and "best practices" for the GM to prepare adventures for my gaming group (who are of the "we are used to major PC games quality" and not the "yeah, we used to start with a pencil, a napkin and just a d6, but all the imagination" types ;-)).

While I'd be willing (in my own interest) to assemble the information and massage it into a user guide akin to the ones mentioned above I certainly wouldn't be able to do it without help (and eventually access to building the pages, unless that is done by "official FG personnel").

Therefore I must ask?

1. How much would you like to have such a SW user guide?

2. And in what capacity would you like or be able to participate in it?

[Trenloe]

There is an 11 page guide that comes with the product - look in <FG App data folder>\docs. But, I'm guessing that this won't go as far as you're talking about... :)

[AstaSyneri]

There is an 11 page guide that comes with the product - look in <FG App data folder>\docs. But, I'm guessing that this won't go as far as you're talking about... :)

That folder is empty. :(

[phantomwhale]

I think the 11 page guide was a "new features" guide that came out with version 3.3

As the main developer, I'm ashamed to say I've never found enough time to catalogue all the Savage Worlds features into a manual. It certainly is crying out for one, esp. after all the new "power" features that were added into v3.4, but without any documentation.

I would certainly be keen to be involved in a collaboration to produce a manual, if we can find a good way to go about this.

[AstaSyneri]

I think the 11 page guide was a "new features" guide that came out with version 3.3

As the main developer, I'm ashamed to say I've never found enough time to catalogue all the Savage Worlds features into a manual. It certainly is crying out for one, esp. after all the new "power" features that were added into v3.4, but without any documentation.

I would certainly be keen to be involved in a collaboration to produce a manual, if we can find a good way to go about this.

It's a very common theme, unfortunately - as building such a documentation usually is a lot more work than one would think (and developers are usually happy when they can say 'hey, it works, great, we are done!' ;-)).

How are the user guides on the website done - is there a CMS behind it? I can start writing, but there will be lots of questions, if I start at my knowledge level right now. LOTS of questions ;-).

Anybody else besides Phantomwhale?

[phantomwhale]

Well, for me it's been the case of do you want me to (a) write documentation for 3-4 months, or (b) build the next version which keeps Savage Worlds up to date with 4E, and maybe adds a few more bells and whistles.

I guess existing users will always go for (b), especially with the many tutorial videos and helpful forum members around to help out. But a manual is probably not primarily for "newbies" (although it would help), I think it's value would like in documenting the hidden corners of the ruleset, and help people find new features they didn't know about.

I do note you mentioned "Best practice" in your initial notes - again, some of this is probably something much better dealt with in a video (such as one of Doswelks) or a blog / forum post. But a manual would certainly offer a core understanding of each component that might help someone build up there own best practice, or understand others more easily.

Anyway - for me the key to getting this working is how to collaborate, and equally produce a manual that's easily updated. Previous efforts from me have been MS Word docs, converted to PDF for publication. For this, I'd hope something smarter and more collaborative was possible, but must admit I'm not familiar with the solutions on offer. Also would be nice to produce both an online guide, with the potential for an offline (PDF ?) manual too.

[mafh]

You could use the enhanced library extension to write a manual for the Savage Worlds ruleset. I've been writing a short one for my players, but I'm new and don't understand everything myself. Anyway, you could just have the manual be an optional module that you could install. Also, this way it could be community edited.

[phantomwhale]

Hadn't thought about making a Savage Worlds manual a Fantasy Grounds library module - it would be quite neat and self contained to have it part of the software itself.

I'm not sure it would be the best format for a full rundown of the ruleset functionality though, due to the limitations in the formatting (e.g. no inline images, limited search / indexing). But a FG library "quickstart and tips" module could be really helpful.

[AstaSyneri]

My post wasn't supposed to be an accusation ;-). I totally understand that. And I absolutely loathe manuals that just say "If you press button save, it saves".

What I'd like to see is a manual that gives


a rundown on what a player can do in FG 2
what the GM can do while running a session
how the GM most efficiently can prepare his sessions


Certain parts might get a somewhat more extensive treatment, some may just be very short.

As for the format: I would in general prefer to see it on the library page as a third user guide. That way it's most easily found.

Videos are okay for certain parts, but as I stated before hate it, when I only have videos to rely upon. Videos are not time efficient!


Well, for me it's been the case of do you want me to (a) write documentation for 3-4 months, or (b) build the next version which keeps Savage Worlds up to date with 4E, and maybe adds a few more bells and whistles.

I guess existing users will always go for (b), especially with the many tutorial videos and helpful forum members around to help out. But a manual is probably not primarily for "newbies" (although it would help), I think it's value would like in documenting the hidden corners of the ruleset, and help people find new features they didn't know about.

I do note you mentioned "Best practice" in your initial notes - again, some of this is probably something much better dealt with in a video (such as one of Doswelks) or a blog / forum post. But a manual would certainly offer a core understanding of each component that might help someone build up there own best practice, or understand others more easily.

Anyway - for me the key to getting this working is how to collaborate, and equally produce a manual that's easily updated. Previous efforts from me have been MS Word docs, converted to PDF for publication. For this, I'd hope something smarter and more collaborative was possible, but must admit I'm not familiar with the solutions on offer. Also would be nice to produce both an online guide, with the potential for an offline (PDF ?) manual too.

[phantomwhale]

Much of what you've listed sounds quite generic to FG - were you after a general FG guide, or something more Savage Worlds specific ?

[AstaSyneri]

Much of what you've listed sounds quite generic to FG - were you after a general FG guide, or something more Savage Worlds specific ?

I was looking at a guide that was in the order of the D&D guides on the website, + SW specific things + some more points for GMs on how to prepare their games (that information imho is the hardest to find).

What would you consider SW specific?

[phantomwhale]

That makes sense - from my point of view, 80% of the 4E FG guide is equally applicable to the Savage Worlds ruleset - aside from slightly adjusted graphics, it's all the same.

The differences are where I guess it's much less clear (e.g. character sheets, combat tracker) which is where there is simply no documentation.

So producing a complete guide to the ruleset without repeating a lot of the 4E basics would be hard, but to exclude them would be quite odd to a new user coming to use FG + Savage Worlds for the first time. This has always been my dilemma on what scope to do for a Savage Worlds manual.

Game preparation is also quite non-specific to Savage Worlds. Having your image / story and other assets ready to go is something covered well so far in videos by Xorn and others, but perhaps they could be coaxed into making text guides to these steps too.

I guess the separation between Savage Worlds and the core FG engine isn't a clear one to users, but it means a lot of what you are looking for can be applied to any FG ruleset, with perhaps a Savage Worlds features guide to decorate that knowledge.

Apologies - I'm shotgunning my thoughts out without too much filtering right now; not sure I'm being much use / making much sense yet ! In any case, hopefully it's not coming across as too argumentative, more "several points for discussion" (which is the aim !)

[AstaSyneri]

Apologies - I'm shotgunning my thoughts out without too much filtering right now; not sure I'm being much use / making much sense yet ! In any case, hopefully it's not coming across as too argumentative, more "several points for discussion" (which is the aim !)

No, that's fine. I am listening (reading, really), quite intently. Go ahead.

As I said before - videos are a nice tool, but are not very efficient time-wise. I can scan a document a lot quicker for the parts that I need than I can watch a video that maybe just tells me things I already know.

I can read!

[Trenloe]

It's not aimed at Savage Worlds, but the conversion document attached at the bottom of post #1 in this thread will give you some good pointers for game preparation such as story structure, encounter and map links, map shortcuts, etc..

https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?17108-Steps-to-create-your-PFS-scenario-in-Fantasy-Grounds&p=129738

[mafh]

Here's an example on what I'd like documentation for: to the left of the modifier star in the Savage Worlds ruleset, there are three little buttons. They apparently don't exist in the 4e rules (or at least I couldn't find out anything about them) and trial and error hasn't been enlightening. If there was at least a document that referred to, say, the 4e documentation but pointed out where the Savage Worlds ruleset are different and how these different things work, that would be really great. (By the way, if anyone can tell me what those buttons do, it would be great.)

[scionofnyarlathotep]

Although not manuals, there are, of course, Doswelk's videos on Youtube.

https://www.youtube.com/user/doswelk

Always very useful.

[AstaSyneri]

Although not manuals, there are, of course, Doswelk's videos on Youtube.

https://www.youtube.com/user/doswelk

Always very useful.

Not if you can't use sound or are looking for something specific ;-) (I hear myself as a broken record now ;-)).

[phantomwhale]

Here's an example on what I'd like documentation for: to the left of the modifier star in the Savage Worlds ruleset, there are three little buttons. They apparently don't exist in the 4e rules (or at least I couldn't find out anything about them) and trial and error hasn't been enlightening. If there was at least a document that referred to, say, the 4e documentation but pointed out where the Savage Worlds ruleset are different and how these different things work, that would be really great. (By the way, if anyone can tell me what those buttons do, it would be great.)

These are one of many features from Ikael's extension which got merged into the new version. They are for toggling whether to apply wound, fatigue and encumbrance penalties to your next roll.

Whilst I'm pleased to say that the Savage Worlds ruleset benefited greatly being able to integrate the core part of Ikael's work into it, regrettably this came without documentation, and a some months effort integrating and bug fixing. I made the call to take on new features without having them accurately documented, and now freely admit this shortfall might cause issues for newer players.

Hopefully whatever AstaSyneri, myself (and others?) can figure out will go some way to bridging this gap.

[AstaSyneri]

Absolutely. Don't expect miracles, though. I am still in the process of learning the tool and with a full-time job and three kids this is not going to be complete in just a few weeks.

Part III of the documentation (Part I: Player's View, Part II: GM's View for running things) I would like to see in a task-oriented way (for information just like Trenloe pointed out above) for preparing adventures, off the top of my head:


How to build your own module
How to prepare maps & encounters
How to generate Extras (NPCs in general, Wild Card or not, in fact)
How to build your own custom token set
How to customize your screen (for example exchange the background picture)
How to efficiently use the quick tab on the bottom of the screen


Do you have any other topics/ideas that fit this approach? I know much of this would be part of "How to build a module", but I'd like to offer smaller tidbits as well, to get GMs started so much more easily.

And, Phantomwhale and I will need more help. Anybody else volunteering?

[phantomwhale]

Apologies if this is starting to become a recurring answer, but almost everything in Part III is generic between SavageWorlds and FantasyGrounds in general (and a large number of them have been addressed on the forums several times, for what it's worth).

From my point of view, I really want to detail the tools and features that are added into SavageWorlds as that's a fairly large scope of work in and of itself !

[AstaSyneri]

Apologies if this is starting to become a recurring answer, but almost everything in Part III is generic between SavageWorlds and FantasyGrounds in general (and a large number of them have been addressed on the forums several times, for what it's worth).

From my point of view, I really want to detail the tools and features that are added into SavageWorlds as that's a fairly large scope of work in and of itself !

Of course. That's what different points of views are for ;-). Would you care to quickly write out a bullet point list of what those tools and features would be?

[phantomwhale]

That's probably step 1 - will start looking at getting that sorted out this month.
That, or figuring out a collaborate system for people to assist - without that, we're back to just doing the documents ourselves, which is kind of where I've been for a while now !

[AstaSyneri]

That's probably step 1 - will start looking at getting that sorted out this month.
That, or figuring out a collaborate system for people to assist - without that, we're back to just doing the documents ourselves, which is kind of where I've been for a while now !

Well, it doesn't look like we are going to get that many additional volunteers at this point.

For my part I'll start by forging ahead and researching a few topics and keeping notes on how things are done (in effect small articles).

[mafh]

Thanks for the answer on the modifier star buttons, phantomwhale! Very helpful. =)

[heyhogan]

Here is a link to some something I wrote a while ago - Savage Worlds 3-3 Supplement.docx. It is a bit dated, but might be the start you are looking for to start. I also have a couple of PDF files for general FG use.

https://app.box.com/s/c0j7f5zf534mvix0g64h

[AstaSyneri]

Heyhogan has updated this to version 3.4 in this thread (https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?19601-Savage-Worlds-Supplement-3-4).

Which very nicely saves me a lot of work, so for now I can concentrate on other areas.