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Moon Wizard
August 15th, 2013, 04:56
About a week and a half ago, I took the work that Dr_Venture and SFerguson had done so far, and I ported it over to the new v3.0 layered rulesets platform. I did it in semi-secret fashion, because I wasn't sure how long it would take or whether I would have the time to get it going before Gencon.

As part of the transition, I was able to preserve most of the already implemented enhancements in addition to adding a lot of functionality built up from the new CoreRPG base ruleset layer.

If you would like to test out this new version, it is available via updating while in Dev mode specified in the FG Settings page. Make sure to read the note on v3.0 testing in the forums, and to back up your FG data folder before updating and using the new version since it is currently in alpha testing.

Cheers,
JPG

damned
August 15th, 2013, 08:13
Can I use this for a live game? If we do that I guess everyone needs to be in Dev mode?
My group have been using the beta for quite a few months.

JohnD
August 15th, 2013, 16:14
How would this affect other, non-C&C content I have (3.5e/PF/RMC)?

Trenloe
August 15th, 2013, 17:09
How would this affect other, non-C&C content I have (3.5e/PF/RMC)?
It shouldn't - it'll be a ruleset just like other 3.x rulesets, built on top of CoreRPG but a ruleset all the same.

If you're talking about moving to 3.x test in general then refer to this thread for more info: http://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?19231-Test-Release-v3-0-%28alpha%29

And *backup any data before you try anything*. :)

Andraax
August 15th, 2013, 18:13
So, how do I get this ruleset to test? I switched to dev and it updated a bunch of stuff, but my C&C ruleset is still at 2.0.

Trenloe
August 15th, 2013, 18:29
Make you've updated your User ID and password in the FG settings window (press the "Update" button) then it should download from the FG store what rulesets you have. Then run the update again.

You may need to delete the old .pak file (make a backup first) before running the update.

Andraax
August 15th, 2013, 21:43
Make you've updated your User ID and password in the FG settings window (press the "Update" button) then it should download from the FG store what rulesets you have. Then run the update again.

You may need to delete the old .pak file (make a backup first) before running the update.

OK, that worked. Now I'm getting errors when trying to open my C&C Player's Handbook and the Monsters & Treasures book, but I can at least do some testing now.

dr_venture
August 15th, 2013, 22:59
Can I use this for a live game? If we do that I guess everyone needs to be in Dev mode?
My group have been using the beta for quite a few months.

Damned: beware that this new ruleset is not backwards compatible to the previous 3.0 beta builds of the C&C ruleset - it is only backwards compatible with the currently released 2.0 ruleset. That's great news for the vast majority of users, but for us beta testers/users, it means we need to rebuild any current beta campaigns into the new system.

Moon Wizard
August 16th, 2013, 07:29
Yeah, sorry about the extra work for the beta testers. I was having a hard time reconciling the current release ruleset with the previous beta build and make it have the best backward compatibility.

I may be able to fine-tune the version migration code if I have more details.

BTW, we are at Gencon this weekend, so I'm limited to responding to forums in the evening.

Regards,
JPG

Andraax
August 18th, 2013, 02:32
Here is a bug report / fix for you:

The party sheet is not calculating the value of items when you try to sell them. It always says that the "cost" is zero. The code in CoreRPG is using a db value of "cost" while in campaign/record_item.xml for C&C it's called "value". I renamed "value" to "cost" and everything started working.

Andraax
August 18th, 2013, 04:23
And another one for you. In scripts/manager_combat2.lua, you calculate the HP for monsters, then never set it - so it's always 0 in the combat tracker.

Adding the following line at the end of the HP calc section in addNpcHelper fixes this problem:


DB.setValue(nodeEntry, "hp", "number", nHP);

damned
August 18th, 2013, 05:56
re-entering campaign data is no big deal for me.
does that mean that moving to FG 3.0 will mean going back to C&C 2.x?
if so I will continue to enjoy the C&C 3.x beta :)

Andraax
August 18th, 2013, 15:06
OK, couple more changes. I noticed that BtH was not getting set on the CT for creatures (PC were fine). Right below the hp fix above, I added:


DB.setValue(nodeEntry, "bth", "number", nHD);

Also, I was getting errors when applying damage in the CT, this was due to there being no GameSystem.getDeathThreshold. I added the following function to scripts/manager_gamesystem.lua:


function getDeathThreshold(node)
return 10;
end

Andraax
August 19th, 2013, 21:10
And another one. Effects were not being applied in the CT. I found that the function to apply them was there, just never referenced anywhere. Rectified by adding the following line to the onInit() function in the file scripts/manager_effect.lua:


CombatManager.setCustomEffectsAdvance(processEffec ts);

Andraax
August 19th, 2013, 22:03
Upon further testing, I disliked the fact that an effects notification was only done with ongoing wounds / regeneration and when an effect expired. So, I added the following code to list out any current effects for that NPC in the chat window (respecting the GM only flag) - goes right after the "Check for effect expiration" section in scripts/manager_effect.lua:



-- Notification
if nodeActor == nodeNewActor then
local sEffName = DB.getValue(nodeEffect, "label", "");
local listEffectComp = parseEffect(sEffName);
for _,rEffectComp in ipairs(listEffectComp) do
if rEffectComp.type ~= "DMGO" and rEffectComp.type ~= "REGEN" then
-- Determine visibility
local bGMOnly = isGMEffect(nodeActor, nodeEffect);
-- Notification
sMsg = "Effect ['" .. sEffName .. "']";
message(sMsg, nodeActor, bGMOnly);
end
end
end

S Ferguson
August 19th, 2013, 23:14
Don't modify the code to your tastes; try to make it with as little impact on the system as possible. The underlying CoreRPG might be changed (it is still in alpha) and your efforts might go to waste. It's good that you're enthusiastic about correcting things but I wouldn't want to see it go the way of the dinosaur....:)

Andraax
August 20th, 2013, 00:01
That's why I'm posting my updates here - so Moon will see them and either incorporate them or tell me why they shouldn't be. I was actually going to make that last change a selectable options, eventually.

S Ferguson
August 20th, 2013, 00:18
You'd probably be better off making the changes in an extension format so that it's easier for him to debug. Copying and implementing code off of a forum is an arduous process (trust me - I know). He also is working on 4 different rulesets right now so an amicable option would be to compile your ideas as they come to you, make the changes in an extension, and submit the code for testing. Who knows what will happen next? :)

Andraax
August 20th, 2013, 01:10
Oh, I am making the changes via an extension. If Moon asks for a copy of the extension, I'll be happy to provide it.

S Ferguson
August 20th, 2013, 01:22
Just make sure that you've got a QA sheet to accompany it. And an explanation of what you've changed and why. That way it benefits the community, not just our own private "House Rules" (which were actually from the CKG). Try not to make too many changes as the code isn't quite ironed out yet.

Moon Wizard
August 20th, 2013, 20:50
Andraax,

Thanks for the concise updates to the code to fix the obvious issues. I will be posting an update this week to take care of the simple and obvious ones.

Also, the extension route is an excellent way to make updates to the code as it allows me to add now or later, especially for behavior / feature changes (like effect announcements).

On the effects announcement, I actually just removed the effects announcement in 3.5E and 4E rulesets in order to simplify and remove chat window clutter. All the information is already available in the combat tracker with a large graphical pointer to the active combatant. In most cases, I make simplifications like this when I feel the feature is marginal or not used often; and I wait for someone to mention its loss. ;) The original feature actually output the effects with the turn notification message in the requestActivation function (which is now in CoreRPG, another reason it was removed). Do you feel like the mention of the effects in the turn notification is actually something that adds value past the existing view in the combat tracker for your game? Thoughts?

Thanks for your help,
JPG

Andraax
August 20th, 2013, 22:46
On the effects announcement, I actually just removed the effects announcement in 3.5E and 4E rulesets in order to simplify and remove chat window clutter. All the information is already available in the combat tracker with a large graphical pointer to the active combatant. In most cases, I make simplifications like this when I feel the feature is marginal or not used often; and I wait for someone to mention its loss. ;) The original feature actually output the effects with the turn notification message in the requestActivation function (which is now in CoreRPG, another reason it was removed). Do you feel like the mention of the effects in the turn notification is actually something that adds value past the existing view in the combat tracker for your game? Thoughts?

Like I mentioned, I think it should be switchable on and off via the options window. There are many times when I have the combat tracker partially obscured and rely on the info in the chat window (many times I have just the left side of the CT in view with the current map on top of it).

I recently also found a problem with the "Blinded" effect (and I assume this might also exist with a few others, like "Stunned", etc). The "Blinded" defense adjust (-5 to AC) is applied as an attack modifier to the attacker - so attacking a target that is blind becomes *harder*. :-) I haven't dug into it too much, but I may just "flip" those, and add 5 to the attack roll.

S Ferguson
August 20th, 2013, 22:56
Like I mentioned, I think it should be switchable on and off via the options window. There are many times when I have the combat tracker partially obscured and rely on the info in the chat window (many times I have just the left side of the CT in view with the current map on top of it).

I recently also found a problem with the "Blinded" effect (and I assume this might also exist with a few others, like "Stunned", etc). The "Blinded" defense adjust (-5 to AC) is applied as an attack modifier to the attacker - so attacking a target that is blind becomes *harder*. :-) I haven't dug into it too much, but I may just "flip" those, and add 5 to the attack roll.

I have that problem, hypothetically speaking, as well. Any illusion spell will cause some type of effect as a combat modifier if it succeeds (dazzled, darkness, etc.). The list for combat modifiers isn't long but it would be nice to have that aspect cleared up.

Cheers,
SF

Andraax
August 20th, 2013, 23:19
OK, here is a problem that might go down into CoreRPG. I removed an effect, but it continued to be applied. It even survived a restart of FG.

4729

S Ferguson
August 20th, 2013, 23:31
OK, here is a problem that might go down into CoreRPG. I removed an effect, but it continued to be applied. It even survived a restart of FG.4729The problem persists after restart because all the "current" effects are placed in the DB.

Moon Wizard
August 20th, 2013, 23:33
Strange, let me see if I can recreate, or if I need help getting it set up.

Cheers,
JPG

Trenloe
August 20th, 2013, 23:33
OK, here is a problem that might go down into CoreRPG. I removed an effect, but it continued to be applied. It even survived a restart of FG.

4729
Can you click the effect icon (outline of a person) to hide the actual new effect line and see what the system thinks is still in operation. Also, are there any effects on the bugbear?

Andraax
August 21st, 2013, 01:03
The problem persists after restart because all the "current" effects are placed in the DB.

Except that the effect had been removed before I shutdown the software.

Andraax
August 21st, 2013, 01:04
Can you click the effect icon (outline of a person) to hide the actual new effect line and see what the system thinks is still in operation. Also, are there any effects on the bugbear?

Here you go. No effects on the bugbear. Notice that the Blinded is counted against the attacker either way.

4730

S Ferguson
August 21st, 2013, 01:16
Except that the effect had been removed before I shutdown the software.

Have you checked the DB in order to verify that the effect in question has been actually removed?

Cheers,
SF

Moon Wizard
August 21st, 2013, 01:20
Andraax,

I couldn't recreate locally. Can you send me a copy of your campaign folder zipped up for this one? ([email protected])

Thanks,
JPG

Andraax
August 21st, 2013, 03:14
Have you checked the DB in order to verify that the effect in question has been actually removed?

Seems to have been. There is an effect in the DB, but it's empty. Other entries in the CT have the same thing, no name, no duration, etc.

S Ferguson
August 21st, 2013, 03:24
If the effect has been removed, then it shouldn't be appearing in the DB at all. Have you tried pulling the effect out of the DB and reloaded it? It might be a residual.

Cheers,
SF

Andraax
August 21st, 2013, 03:33
If the effect has been removed, then it shouldn't be appearing in the DB at all. Have you tried pulling the effect out of the DB and reloaded it? It might be a residual.

I added another entry to the CT that has no, and never had any effects. It was also added with that same, blank effect in the DB.

Andraax
August 21st, 2013, 04:10
I couldn't recreate locally. Can you send me a copy of your campaign folder zipped up for this one? ([email protected])

Actually, I found the problem. It was in some code I was testing. I've got it fixed now - and the effects are working now properly (the ones I've tested anyway).

Incidentally, the function hasEffect() always returns false in the ruleset. You create "aMatch" as local, and then you only return true if aMatch has entries at the end of the function. However, I can't see where you're ever setting any values in aMatch. The weird effect of always returning blinded was caused by a change I made trying to fix hasEffect() - which I've now fixed.

Andraax
August 21st, 2013, 04:19
Here it is; seems to be working now.

4732

dr_venture
August 21st, 2013, 05:04
You da man, Andraax - really great work!

S Ferguson
August 21st, 2013, 15:41
Here it is; seems to be working now.

4732

I thought you said you were programming in extensions? :) You're making good strides, just don't take on too much or this type of error occurs. As you correctly surmised the aMatch is only called twice in the entire ruleset under effects, One sets it up as the null frame, and the rest of the function populates it with a list of effects from the DB; and checked vs. being empty, the #aMatch > 0. to see if there is anything in the list if not nMatch (or no match) takes hold. Good show though.

Cheers,
SF

Andraax
August 21st, 2013, 16:00
As you correctly surmised the aMatch is only called twice in the entire ruleset under effects, One sets it up as the null frame, and the rest of the function populates it with a list of effects from the DB; and checked vs. being empty, the #aMatch > 0. to see if there is anything in the list if not nMatch (or no match) takes hold.

You say the rest of the function populates it - how? There is no reference to it between where it is created and where it is checked. Some behind the scenes magic? When I said it exists only twice, I meant that - once for the line where it's created, and the second time is where it's checked for having a value. I see no place in the code where that value is changed after creation.

And yeah, I'm doing extensions, but my extension replaces this script with my modified one.

S Ferguson
August 21st, 2013, 16:07
in the iterator:

for kEffectComp, rEffectComp in ipairs(effect_list) do

-- CHECK FOR AN ACTUAL EFFECT MATCH
if string.lower(rEffectComp.original) == sLowerEffect then
if bTargeted and not bIgnoreEffectTargets then
if isEffectTarget(v, rTarget) then
nMatch = kEffectComp;

this type of iterator with the ipairs command (and often the in pairs command) is the lua equivalent of searching the key and node of a frame (if it helps think of this as a numerical array which starts at 0 and goes to the highest element). It just iterates though DB nodes until it runs out of effects or finds that there's nothing there to begin with.

Andraax
August 21st, 2013, 16:16
OK, so that code changes the value of aMatch without ever referencing it? Are there any other variables that it changes that aren't actually in the code? And how do we find a list of these magical variables that are changed without ever being referred to in the code?

BTW, I understand iterators like this. I use them all the time in Perl and Python. But it seems that LUA is the only language that changes variables without the code ever telling it do so.

Andraax
August 21st, 2013, 16:31
BTW, here is the results of two tests with and without my changes to hasEffect(). You'll notice that the "before" does not do the automatic defense adjustment for the "Blinded" effect.

4743
4744

I added the following code into that loop you mentioned and it now works:

if nMatch then
table.insert(aMatch, kEffectComp);
end

It works, because now it actually changes the value of aMatch when a match is found, and therefore returns a true. My bug was because I put it after the wrong "end" (it was after the end of the if statement where the test actually occurred, so aMatch was getting set for *every* effect rather than just for those that matched).

S Ferguson
August 21st, 2013, 16:42
It's using aMatch basically a holder and the loop control; and yes that piece of code is self-contained. All in that function, The code reading:

local aMatch = {};
for _,v in pairs(DB.getChildren(rActor.nodeCT, "effects")) do...

sets up the empty list, we don't care about the index but we want to populate the list with the effects from a particular Node (obviously effects from the character node). This populates aMatch behind the scenes, in a succession of iterators. it's finally checked to see if the list is greater than 0, and if it is aMatch is found and aMatch is produced. If you've programming functional iterators like these in Perl, Python (or more notably Lisp) you can see where the lexical scoping takes place. Lua was originally built by the Brazillian government as an all purpose language to handle large documents, Who knows what they were thinking? :) (try reading a whitepaper on the language and try to hold in the guffaws. imagine a language with one data structure, object-oriented, and based off of 5 or so disparate languages - sheesh). Mind you I guess this is a little too much, too little, too late. I was about to suggest you put that line in the code.:mad: I'll get on the ball quicker next time.

Cheers,
SF

S Ferguson
August 21st, 2013, 16:47
BTW, here is the results of two tests with and without my changes to hasEffect(). You'll notice that the "before" does not do the automatic defense adjustment for the "Blinded" effect.

4743
4744

I added the following code into that loop you mentioned and it now works:

if nMatch then
table.insert(aMatch, kEffectComp);
end

It works, because now it actually changes the value of aMatch when a match is found, and therefore returns a true. My bug was because I put it after the wrong "end" (it was after the end of the if statement where the test actually occurred, so aMatch was getting set for *every* effect rather than just for those that matched).

Guess my explanation wasn't needed then. And I realized the error just now after flipping through the function again. I've been up for over 24 hrs. you have to cut me some slack...:)

Cheers,
SF

Moon Wizard
August 23rd, 2013, 01:13
New update to the v3.0 release and minor updates to the C&C ruleset.
http://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?19231-Test-Release-v3-0-(alpha)&p=155480#post155480

I am aware that I was a little ambitious in trying to simplify the data structures, and that several of the creature modules/adventures are not loading. I'm going to address that on the next pass, as well as review the reports I have so far to pick up the other items I haven't gotten to yet.

Thanks,
JPG

S Ferguson
August 23rd, 2013, 01:44
New update to the v3.0 release and minor updates to the C&C ruleset.
http://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?19231-Test-Release-v3-0-(alpha)&p=155480#post155480

I am aware that I was a little ambitious in trying to simplify the data structures, and that several of the creature modules/adventures are not loading. I'm going to address that on the next pass, as well as review the reports I have so far to pick up the other items I haven't gotten to yet.

Thanks,
JPG

You just got a preliminary updated list. :)

Andraax
August 23rd, 2013, 23:26
Couple of things with the Personalities / Encounters windows.

When you drop a Monster NPC entry from the Personalities window onto an Encounter, the token disappears. You have to drag the token separately. This seems to work fine if it's a character type NPC. Also, if you have a character type NPC, the HP field in the CT is not filled in when you add from either the encounter screen or the personalities screen (including dropping them).

When you drop a full character from the Characters window onto the Personalities window, there are multiple errors. The first line is after dropping, when you pop up the entry to view it. The next three display when you change the NPC from a Monster to a Character type. And pretty much none of the data is copied over.

Ruleset Error: Database type mismatch for 'ac'
Ruleset Error: Database type mismatch for 'hp'
Ruleset Error: Database type mismatch for 'ac'
Script Error: [string "campaign/scripts/npc_character.lua"]:26: attempt to index global 'hp' (a nil value)

There are errors when you drop a Character NPC from one of the purchased modules into the Personalities window (ac and move wrong type) though it sounds like you're working on that already.

S Ferguson
August 24th, 2013, 20:27
Couple of things with the Personalities / Encounters windows.

When you drop a Monster NPC entry from the Personalities window onto an Encounter, the token disappears. You have to drag the token separately. This seems to work fine if it's a character type NPC. Also, if you have a character type NPC, the HP field in the CT is not filled in when you add from either the encounter screen or the personalities screen (including dropping them).

When you drop a full character from the Characters window onto the Personalities window, there are multiple errors. The first line is after dropping, when you pop up the entry to view it. The next three display when you change the NPC from a Monster to a Character type. And pretty much none of the data is copied over.

Ruleset Error: Database type mismatch for 'ac'
Ruleset Error: Database type mismatch for 'hp'
Ruleset Error: Database type mismatch for 'ac'
Script Error: [string "campaign/scripts/npc_character.lua"]:26: attempt to index global 'hp' (a nil value)

There are errors when you drop a Character NPC from one of the purchased modules into the Personalities window (ac and move wrong type) though it sounds like you're working on that already.

This is a common problem with NPC's. Monsters from modules, and Encounters from modules. He's working on it.

Cheers,
SF

Andraax
August 24th, 2013, 20:54
This is a common problem with NPC's. Monsters from modules, and Encounters from modules. He's working on it.

The first set of errors was not from modules, those were from entries created within the ruleset. Only the last one was, hence my comment "though it sounds like you're working on that already."

S Ferguson
August 24th, 2013, 21:18
My bad - sorry. But the same thing happens for all NPC's monsters (from modules - the "prototype" of backwards compatibility) , and encounters. I mentioned from the Modules because that's what the current code is based on for "reading" the disparate types.

Cheers,
SF

dr_venture
August 25th, 2013, 05:27
Abilities cannot be dragged onto character sheets, even though they can be dragged onto links in text documents. I'd love to start working on a library of abilities for both C&C as well as my Old West game, but until this can be fixed, there in no alternative than to create each ability from scratch, even though the basics of fully operational drag-n-drop seem to be in place. I'm guessing the Abilities page just needs the code to accept drops of abilities, correct?

JohnD
August 25th, 2013, 14:18
Drag and drop would be a great step forward. As would being able to add spell modules and other contents... maybe I'm missing something.

JohnD
August 26th, 2013, 12:44
Is it just me or is the DEX bonus not being applied to AC right now?

Andraax
August 26th, 2013, 12:52
Is it just me or is the DEX bonus not being applied to AC right now?

Confirmed.

Andraax
August 26th, 2013, 13:23
Is it just me or is the DEX bonus not being applied to AC right now?

Here is an extension that fixes this problem (until it gets an official fix).
http://s3.silent-tower.org/C_n_C+Bug+Fixes.ext

JohnD
August 26th, 2013, 20:44
Thanks for that. I must say that I really like the graphical update to the ruleset.

I have 3.0 on my laptop and 2.9.4 on my desktop for hosting now, but it is nice to be able to have a trial run through the updated version play testing a few things.

JohnD
August 27th, 2013, 04:43
Get the following error when I try to open any creature from the Monsters & Treasure book (and nothing ever actually opens):


Runtime Error: Unable to create window with invalid class (monster : [email protected] and Treasure)

Get the following error when I open any of the armor or weapon sections from the Arms & Armor book (but the page opens and can be accessed normally):


Ruleset Error: Database type mismatch for 'ev'

Andraax
August 27th, 2013, 05:19
Are you sure you're opening the correct Monsters & Treasures book? There is a new one that should download with the 3.0 update. I'm pretty sure Arms & Armor has not been updated yet (though it might also be the same problem, you're not opening the new one).

JohnD
August 27th, 2013, 10:44
Hmmm... well I'm opening the only one that is available. The A&A book likewise has everything "linked" in the new manner (same as 3.5 for example) with additional information.

Suppose I delete the modules in question and re-run the update - that should force a download of the correct books, right? I note the Creatures book has the tan cover, not a green one.

Andraax
August 27th, 2013, 12:53
Suppose I delete the modules in question and re-run the update - that should force a download of the correct books, right? I note the Creatures book has the tan cover, not a green one.

Yeah, that's what I had to do. And make sure you delete any "unpacked" version you might have in your modules directory - it will pull that in preference to the ".mod" file.

Trenloe
August 27th, 2013, 17:24
And make sure you delete any "unpacked" version you might have in your modules directory - it will pull that in preference to the ".mod" file.
FYI. This is only relevant for extensions, modules do not work in an unpacked form.

S Ferguson
August 27th, 2013, 17:37
FYI. This is only relevant for extensions, modules do not work in an unpacked form.

Yep the order of operations are extensions, directories (what I assumed he meant by "unpacked" then the actual .pak (library) file.
@JohnD That issue has been fixed however, if you reload it should work, just make sure you don't have a Castles and crusades folder, nor a CoreRPG folder under rulesets, and you should be laughing.

Cheers,
SF

Trenloe
August 27th, 2013, 17:58
Yep the order of operations are extensions, directories (what I assumed he meant by "unpacked" then the actual .pak (library) file.
I think Andraax was referring to the fact that extensions can be ran as an unpacked directory and lua/xml files within the \extensions directory - not having to "pack" the extension into a .ext file, very handy for development. I think he thought that this is the case for modules too, which it is not.

In my testing with extensions, FG will read extensions in directory format first then the .ext - so if there are duplicates (a directory and a .ext) in the \extensions directory the directory version will be used instead of the .ext.

S Ferguson
August 27th, 2013, 18:53
I think Andraax was referring to the fact that extensions can be ran as an unpacked directory and lua/xml files within the \extensions directory - not having to "pack" the extension into a .ext file, very handy for development. I think he thought that this is the case for modules too, which it is not.

In my testing with extensions, FG will read extensions in directory format first then the .ext - so if there are duplicates (a directory and a .ext) in the \extensions directory the directory version will be used instead of the .ext.

No this problem was definitely cured by the directories in the /ruleset folder. You're quite correct though in it being handy to have extensions in directory form, lord knows we've been through that before. :) Regardless directories override "compressed" instances in all cases (excluding modules which I'm not sure if you can run "unpacked" - please clarify if you know any different - I've always turned them into modules first)

Cheers,
SF.

JohnD
August 27th, 2013, 18:57
OK so I should simply delete the C&C directory in rulesets and do an update?

Sorry, the rest of this flies over my head and below my knees. :p

Trenloe
August 27th, 2013, 20:44
No this problem was definitely cured by the directories in the /ruleset folder.
That might well be the case, but I was replying to Anxraax's post about removing any unpacked modules in the modules directory. I was simply clarifying that modules do not work in an unpacked state whereas extensions do.

S Ferguson
August 27th, 2013, 20:47
OK so I should simply delete the C&C directory in rulesets and do an update?

Sorry, the rest of this flies over my head and below my knees. :p

Yep.

Cheers,
SF

JohnD
August 31st, 2013, 00:39
OK so I should simply delete the C&C directory in rulesets and do an update?
So I deleted the C&C pak file under rulesets but am still getting the error. Any ideas?

Andraax
August 31st, 2013, 00:43
Did you delete the other one, too? The one that I installed originally installed itself in the \Windows\Program Files\... directory.

S Ferguson
August 31st, 2013, 00:51
As long as there is no C&C directories under rulesets, you should be able to downgrade it temporarily to 2.9.4 (it will install the original ruleset) and then bump it back up to 3.0 should get you running again. That's how I've been playing and testing.

Cheers,
SF

JohnD
August 31st, 2013, 02:04
Did you delete the other one, too? The one that I installed originally installed itself in the \Windows\Program Files\... directory.
Hmmm... no just the one under the Application directory. Will try this as well... am hampered by a less than stellar internet connection right now.

S Ferguson
August 31st, 2013, 02:19
... am hampered by a less than stellar internet connection right now.
It happens now and again. Oh for the days of duplex modems....

Cheers,
SF

JohnD
August 31st, 2013, 02:34
Yeah... the only down side of visiting my parents in the boonies.

JohnD
August 31st, 2013, 16:05
So I reverted to 2.9.4 which took about 45 minutes on my current connection. :/

I am planning a new campaign for late September-ish. When I reverted, none of the content I put together in 3.0.0 was useable... characters and NPCs were all garbled and throwing up errors all over the place. So... question; what should I be building in now? Will stuff made in the current Live version of C&C port forward or will I need to start everything all over again after the upgrade/update to v3? Essentially I guess I'm asking if my work now will be wasted later on.

Also noticed in 3.0.0 that NPCs couldn't enter their stats... there were no editable fields.

Andraax
August 31st, 2013, 17:26
Make your campaigns in 2.9.4 with the ruleset for 2.9.4. Make a backup before switching to 3.0.0 for doing testing. The ruleset for 3.0.0 will convert all of your stuff from 2.9.4, but there is no conversion to go backwards (that's why you need to make a backup). When the final release for 3.0.0 is ready, you can just start using that with your live games, and they'll convert up automagically.

S Ferguson
September 1st, 2013, 01:34
So I reverted to 2.9.4 which took about 45 minutes on my current connection. :/

I am planning a new campaign for late September-ish. When I reverted, none of the content I put together in 3.0.0 was useable... characters and NPCs were all garbled and throwing up errors all over the place. So... question; what should I be building in now? Will stuff made in the current Live version of C&C port forward or will I need to start everything all over again after the upgrade/update to v3? Essentially I guess I'm asking if my work now will be wasted later on.

Also noticed in 3.0.0 that NPCs couldn't enter their stats... there were no editable fields.


Going from 2.9.4 to 3.0 is doable. The reverse, sadly to say, isn't, as different data structures are used in the two different versions. V3.0 is probably going to go through quite a few changes yet before it's finalized. if you do your campaign in 2.0 you're playing safe. By then hopefully the CoreRPG underlay of 3.0 will be solidified. It really makes no difference to the players as C&C promotes roleplaying rather than roll-playing (and they're downloading the ruleset from you anyway ;))

All your data from the 2.9.4 version should be portable to 3.0 by the time the bugs are worked through. So if you do your work in 2.9.4 it's safe (additionally, FG 3.0 requires *everyone* to be operating at 3.0 as the versions are not backwards compatible).

As to the NPC issue, are you choosing personalities, then checking off the character block? The stats you currently can't enter, but if you, say import a character from a 2.0 campaign (where you can adjust the stats) it should display them properly. Don't forget that there are two types of NPC: Class based (which are characters in there own right) and non-classed based which are the fletchers, and hucksters, and others that are probably there to be killed.

C&C convention is to only list the Primes for non-classed NPCs and then the regular saves (P & M). This is often used for classed-based NPCs that are retinue, helpers and hirelings that don't need to be fully fleshed out. These can be marked down on the notes page currently (where the personality section goes). An inconvenience, for now but remember we've still got to go through a public beta before the final product is released, as "official"

Cheers,
SF

Andraax
September 4th, 2013, 05:34
Moon released a new update, which includes a new CnC ruleset. However, there is still a problem with the calculation of AC in CnC. I updated my bug fix extension to work with tonight's released ruleset.

CnC Bug Fixes Extension (http://goo.gl/6l34wR)

S Ferguson
September 4th, 2013, 14:58
I believe it's because your DEX bonus is dependent on the situation you find yourself in (e.g. it's not applicable to rear, or surprise attacks). It's up to the CK how and when to implement it I don't actually think it's an oversight, or if it is, it shouldn't be.

Andraax
September 4th, 2013, 15:28
I believe it's because your DEX bonus is dependent on the situation you find yourself in (e.g. it's not applicable to rear, or surprise attacks). It's up to the CK how and when to implement it I don't actually think it's an oversight, or if it is, it shouldn't be.

Since most situations require it, it would be a pain to have to put in a modifier most of the time. It's easier to put in a bonus modifier to the attacker for rear and surprise attacks in those rare situations that they happen. Actually, the previous ruleset had a "flatfooted" AC to handle those situations, but I'm not seeing that in the new ruleset. Extension time.

Edit: Actually, I just checked out the new ruleset. You can drop a temporary modifier onto AC. So, to handle surprise or rear attacks the GM just needs to drop the modifier onto AC. I still contend that Dex needs to be in the calculation.

S Ferguson
September 4th, 2013, 15:46
Since most situations require it, it would be a pain to have to put in a modifier most of the time. It's easier to put in a bonus modifier to the attacker for rear and surprise attacks in those rare situations that they happen. Actually, the previous ruleset had a "flatfooted" AC to handle those situations, but I'm not seeing that in the new ruleset. Extension time.

There is no concept of "flat-footed" in C&C Combat (at least as far back as 2e condensed). and your DEX bonus comes into play anytime your characters get surrounded, ambushed, surprised, get into a combat with 3-1 odds against... this list goes on. The shield bonus should fluctuate as well as it only as good as the number of attacks you can fend off. By all means build an extension if you want to include things like DEX always on (except when it's off), but don't make them part of your canonical bug fixes!

Cheers,
SF

Andraax
September 4th, 2013, 16:19
From the character sheet in the Player's Handbook - it sure seems as if Troll Lord Games intends Dex to be part of the AC calculation for most situations:

4949

S Ferguson
September 4th, 2013, 16:42
Yes but the CK adjucates when the DEX modifier is being called into play. The slot on the character sheet lists (as you'll note) all modifiers, because in the PnP community, we have to rely on "recording everything." The character sheet, you'll notice also lists racial and class abilities under the same "block" even though some of these are actually siege checks and technically, should be given their own slot to match abilities and modifiers to them.... The joys of PnP :P .

Andraax
September 4th, 2013, 16:57
Going by your logic, the shield shouldn't be included either. Nor deflection and miscellaneous. All of which *are* included. I think it's silly that "miscellaneous" is included in AC calculations but dexterity isn't.

Trenloe
September 4th, 2013, 17:08
If DEX is by default added to AC for usual combats then I think it would be a good idea to have it added to AC as default. This makes it less likely for the player/GM to forget to apply it for a straight attack vs AC without any factors that might change the AC. It is much better to then have the GM assign a penalty if needed, not the other way around.

Otherwise the GM will be having to make changes for all attacks other than ones that completely deny DEX.

If you remove DEX from the standard calculations you may as well remove other stuff as well and just add it each time someone makes an attack, asking the questions: is DEX appropriate and if so, how much? Is shield appropriate? What armour am I wearing todayt? etc., etc.. I know that is an extreme analogy (especially the wearing armour bit) but must RPGs I've played start at the status-quo level and then modifiers are used to remove things if the situation warrants it.

I'm not aware of any d20 based system that doesn't start with DEX applied to AC as a default. Relying on the GM adding it every time could be very confusing for players and GMs not familiar with the implementation in FG. The total AC is the abstract total difficulty of hitting that PC, which includes DEX.

Also, if removing DEX from PCs AC as default is implemented, does this mean that all of the monster/creature stats need to be adjusted to take this into account? I know monster AC is abstract and NPCs don't include a DEX stat, but I'm sure that NPC AC includes a modifier based of how dexterous that NPC is. This would get too confusing if a PC's normal AC didn't include DEX but an NPC effectively did - best to start with the status quo for both PCs and NPCs.

S Ferguson
September 4th, 2013, 17:11
The misc. box is for magic items. And by my logic the armor should be included as it directly pertains to "actual" protection, although it can be worn out over the course of battles (CKG). Deflection from missiles is part of the armor's construction so it it a function of the armor. And yes the shield bonus is tentative as you can only use it to block a certain number of enemies' attacks per level. Otherwise it's just a glorified watch on your arm :). It boils down to how you run your campaign, C&C's appeal to me is that we can have these types of "rules variants" discussions and no matter what, the system still works in the end.

Cheers,
SF

dr_venture
September 4th, 2013, 17:17
Dex has always been included in automatic AC calculations in C&C rulesets... and 3.5 and 4e and OSRIC and Rolemaster, as far as I'm aware. Dex is normally included in most AC calculations from what I've seen, so it should be normally included in the calculation in C&C. Almost all rules in a RPG are up for arbitration by the GM, thus we have the Modifiers box for those occasions... but the sheet calculations should be set up to automate the most likely and most logical use of the game mechanics.

Trenloe
September 4th, 2013, 17:25
Dex has always been included in automatic AC calculations in C&C rulesets... and 3.5 and 4e and OSRIC and Rolemaster, as far as I'm aware. Dex is normally included in most AC calculations from what I've seen, so it should be normally included in the calculation in C&C. Almost all rules in a RPG are up for arbitration by the GM, thus we have the Modifiers box for those occasions... but the sheet calculations should be set up to automate the most likely and most logical use of the game mechanics.
Completely agree.

Who is actually making the decisions/doing the development of the new 3.0 C&C ruleset?

dr_venture
September 4th, 2013, 17:26
Anyone else have an idea what the extra buttons are used in the Modifiers box... or are they broken? The 9 options there seem potentially useful, but while C&C has standard modifiers for Concealment, it has no such modifiers for Cover. Also, isn't Touch handled by attacking via the Touch attack roll on the Combat page vs. the Touch AC, as opposed to using some kind of modifier? (I'm speaking of FG ruleset mechanics here - obviously it's *all* modifiers in the end)

Also, I suppose it's already been noted somewhere that the treasure parcels can't be allocated in the Party Sheet - the "Award XP" option is there, but when you select it, you get a 2nd confirmation step in the radial menu, but no options that can be selected.

S Ferguson
September 4th, 2013, 17:27
If DEX is by default added to AC for usual combats then I think it would be a good idea to have it added to AC as default. This makes it less likely for the player/GM to forget to apply it for a straight attack vs AC without any factors that might change the AC. It is much better to then have the GM assign a penalty if needed, not the other way around.

Otherwise the GM will be having to make changes for all attacks other than ones that completely deny DEX.

If you remove DEX from the standard calculations you may as well remove other stuff as well and just add it each time someone makes an attack, asking the questions: is DEX appropriate and if so, how much? Is shield appropriate? What armour am I wearing todayt? etc., etc.. I know that is an extreme analogy (especially the wearing armour bit) but must RPGs I've played start at the status-quo level and then modifiers are used to remove things if the situation warrants it.

I'm not aware of any d20 based system that doesn't start with DEX applied to AC as a default. Relying on the GM adding it every time could be very confusing for players and GMs not familiar with the implementation in FG. The total AC is the abstract total difficulty of hitting that PC, which includes DEX.

Also, if removing DEX from PCs AC as default is implemented, does this mean that all of the monster/creature stats need to be adjusted to take this into account? I know monster AC is abstract and NPCs don't include a DEX stat, but I'm sure that NPC AC includes a modifier based of how dexterous that NPC is. This would get too confusing if a PC's normal AC didn't include DEX but an NPC effectively did - best to start with the status quo for both PCs and NPCs.

Point well taken. But those unfamiliar with the rules would be equally likely to forget (in the heat of the battle) to remove the DEX bonus, however your argument of NPC AC vs. PC AC has given me cause to waver. The situations in which a character, say rear attacks, an NPC with an armor class of 15 is has his AC reduced (if not completely negated) according to the rules, so in effect the NPCs and the PCs are on a level playing field. The player's would also question why there DEX bonus isn't being applied. The argument works both ways. It's a tough call. I have no personal problem with having it included - just, as you can see, in the execution of the game. It's just when you get to the CT how would you rectify the lack of DEX or shield bonuses. That's *my* main concern. And C&C isn't your ordinary d20 game. It's superior! :).

dr_venture
September 4th, 2013, 17:29
I'm technically still the contracted guy with Smiteworks for the ruleset, but Moon is handling the dev, as it should be for this release.

S Ferguson
September 4th, 2013, 17:31
Anyone else have an idea what the extra buttons are used in the Modifiers box... or are they broken? The 9 options there seem potentially useful, but while C&C has standard modifiers for Concealment, it has no such modifiers for Cover. Also, isn't Touch handled by attacking via the Touch attack roll on the Combat page vs. the Touch AC, as opposed to using some kind of modifier? (I'm speaking of FG ruleset mechanics here - obviously it's *all* modifiers in the end)

Also, I suppose it's already been noted somewhere that the treasure parcels can't be allocated in the Party Sheet - the "Award XP" option is there, but when you select it, you get a 2nd confirmation step in the radial menu, but no options that can be selected.

Given the finite list of modifiers, they should all be included. And the modifiers for concealment work both ways as well I noted in the PHB if you're concealed you have a penalty to your attacks as well.

Andraax
September 4th, 2013, 17:39
Anyone else have an idea what the extra buttons are used in the Modifiers box... or are they broken? The 9 options there seem potentially useful, but while C&C has standard modifiers for Concealment, it has no such modifiers for Cover. Also, isn't Touch handled by attacking via the Touch attack roll on the Combat page vs. the Touch AC, as opposed to using some kind of modifier? (I'm speaking of FG ruleset mechanics here - obviously it's *all* modifiers in the end)

They work fine. They apply a modifier to all attacks from you against your current targeted opponent(s). This modifier is remembered from turn to turn - so once you apply it, you don't have to remember to use it on subsequent turns. I'm guessing the Touch button is there for magic users but I haven't played around with it much yet.


Also, I suppose it's already been noted somewhere that the treasure parcels can't be allocated in the Party Sheet - the "Award XP" option is there, but when you select it, you get a 2nd confirmation step in the radial menu, but no options that can be selected.

Treasure can't be allocated directly from the party sheet - you have to add it to a character's sheet directly (hmm, maybe you can drag it to the character's inventory on the party sheet, or to the character's portrait to add it, haven't tried that). That "party treasure" section is there, AFAICT, to collect stuff together for sale. Put it there, then one click to sell it all. Once it's sold and the money added to the party's money section, then it can be divided up among the party with a couple mouse clicks from there.

S Ferguson
September 4th, 2013, 17:44
Dex has always been included in automatic AC calculations in C&C rulesets... and 3.5 and 4e and OSRIC and Rolemaster, as far as I'm aware. Dex is normally included in most AC calculations from what I've seen, so it should be normally included in the calculation in C&C. Almost all rules in a RPG are up for arbitration by the GM, thus we have the Modifiers box for those occasions... but the sheet calculations should be set up to automate the most likely and most logical use of the game mechanics.

Okay. You've got me. the DEX can stay. I suppose any smart CK will know when to pull it. However surprise attacks and ambushes happen quite frequently in my campaign, so DEX is usually an annoyance there. It's that point of the DEX modifier I was addressing, not straight combat. How many times do you encounter normal combat? Some adventures rely on ambushes as the munchkins would rather attack by stealth rather than brute force. Also without this, the Barbarian's "Combat Sense" wouldn't, um, make much sense. Also in all those games, you are penalized for sneak attacks and ambushes.

dr_venture
September 4th, 2013, 17:57
They work fine. They apply a modifier to all attacks from you against your current targeted opponent(s). This modifier is remembered from turn to turn - so once you apply it, you don't have to remember to use it on subsequent turns. I'm guessing the Touch button is there for magic users but I haven't played around with it much yet.

Thought I messed around with that and didn't see it... I'll try again - thanks.


Treasure can't be allocated directly from the party sheet - you have to add it to a character's sheet directly (hmm, maybe you can drag it to the character's inventory on the party sheet, or to the character's portrait to add it, haven't tried that). That "party treasure" section is there, AFAICT, to collect stuff together for sale. Put it there, then one click to sell it all. Once it's sold and the money added to the party's money section, then it can be divided up among the party with a couple mouse clicks from there.

My bad - I meant the XP tab - when you right-click on either an encounter or quest item, you get a "Award XP" option, which if clicked on, brings up a 2nd radial that I assume is supposed to have a confirmation option, but actually contains no options at all - it's just an empty radial menu.

S Ferguson
September 4th, 2013, 17:57
They work fine. They apply a modifier to all attacks from you against your current targeted opponent(s). This modifier is remembered from turn to turn - so once you apply it, you don't have to remember to use it on subsequent turns. I'm guessing the Touch button is there for magic users but I haven't played around with it much yet.


You are correct it is there for MUs but also things like wights who need to grasp you to life drain.

Cheers,
SF

dr_venture
September 4th, 2013, 18:12
How many times do you encounter normal combat?

Well, in all 'normal' or common combats... which is to say, all combats that don't involve surprise. In those combats where surprise is a factor, 'normal' combat is every round other than the first one, where somebody is surprised and loses their Dex bonus. Not adding the Dex bonus is the exception.

S Ferguson
September 4th, 2013, 18:16
Well, in all 'normal' or common combats... which is to say, all combats that don't involve surprise. In those combats where surprise is a factor, 'normal' combat is every round other than the first one, where somebody is surprised and loses their Dex bonus. Not adding the Dex bonus is the exception.

Alright. You've convinced me. Maybe there should be a modifier for surprise.

Cheers,
SF

Moon Wizard
September 4th, 2013, 19:40
I took flat-footed AC out after a discussion with S Ferguson, since C&C doesn't officially have a flat-footed AC. However, it sounds like there are situations in C&C which are exactly the same as flat-footed. (i.e. Characters lose their Dex modifier when surprised, etc.) Even Scott seems to be in favor of having an option for that based on this discussion.

Given this new information, I think I will add flat-footed back into the character sheet, CT entry and modifier button for the modifier box. You can use this option for any surprise, rear attacks, etc.

Also, there are a couple missing graphics on the party sheet XP tab as DrV found.

Regards,
JPG

JohnD
September 4th, 2013, 19:56
Yeah - another vote in favour of including DEX in the default AC calculation from me... can add modifiers to counteract as needed.

dr_venture
September 4th, 2013, 22:20
Given this new information, I think I will add flat-footed back into the character sheet, CT entry and modifier button for the modifier box. You can use this option for any surprise, rear attacks, etc.

When you put it that way, I agree - it sounds like a good idea... having another option is almost always nice, since you can always ignore it if you don't use it.

So a question for the forum: is the term "Flat-footed" a good description for AC minus Dex? Now that I've heard it described, it makes sense to me, but I'm really an AD&D & Rolemaster guy, so the term was meaningless to me until moon described it. In fact, "flat-footed" as such does not appear as a specific term anywhere in the 5th edition PHB, though it is common in other related game systems.

I may be alone in this, but a more descriptive name might be helpful, such as "Surprise AC" or the more plain "AC (no Dex)"... or something else? Just curious if I'm alone in not understanding what "flat-footed" means in specific game terms, or if there is a simple but more descriptive term?



Also, there are a couple missing graphics on the party sheet XP tab as DrV found.

I had no idea it was just a matter of a missing graphic - can I whip something up for ya?

S Ferguson
September 4th, 2013, 22:36
When you put it that way, I agree - it sounds like a good idea... having another option is almost always nice, since you can always ignore it if you don't use it.

So a question for the forum: is the term "Flat-footed" a good description for AC minus Dex? Now that I've heard it described, it makes sense to me, but I'm really an AD&D & Rolemaster guy, so the term was meaningless to me until moon described it. In fact, "flat-footed" as such does not appear as a specific term anywhere in the 5th edition PHB, though it is common in other related game systems.

I may be alone in this, but a more descriptive name might be helpful, such as "Surprise AC" or the more plain "AC (no Dex)"... or something else? Just curious if I'm alone in not understanding what "flat-footed" means in specific game terms, or if there is a simple but more descriptive term?

No, you are not alone, I feel the same way. It just doesn't sound right. I can't come up with a better term although AC(No DEX) sounds good. Call a spade a spade.


Cheers,
SF

Andraax
September 4th, 2013, 22:46
Given this new information, I think I will add flat-footed back into the character sheet, CT entry and modifier button for the modifier box. You can use this option for any surprise, rear attacks, etc.

Actually, if you add a modifier button to basically back out any Dex / Shield adjustment on the target, that should be all that's needed. Call it "Surprised / Unaware". There is no need to have another field for flatfooted.

S Ferguson
September 4th, 2013, 23:21
Actually, if you add a modifier button to basically back out any Dex / Shield adjustment on the target, that should be all that's needed. Call it "Surprised / Unaware". There is no need to have another field for flatfooted.

That's the best thing I've heard all day. Thank you for this suggestion. Simple and effective. Nice.

Cheers,
SF

Moon Wizard
September 4th, 2013, 23:36
The challenge is that the bonuses are not broken down in the combat tracker, and creatures don't have them broken down either. Therefore, it requires a new field to specify what the "flat-footed"/"surprised"/"rear" AC should be. The easiest way is to have a single field that can be linked to the character sheet, as opposed to trying to cram all those options into the combat tracker. For simplicity, I'm just going to reimplement the FF AC field. My goal with every character sheet implemented is to provide support for all the options, so that there is a spot for everything that could come up.

If you guys want to come up with a different label, it doesn't matter to me. I need a label for the field on the character main page, character combat page, combat tracker entry (abbreviation) and modifier window button.

Regards,
JPG

Andraax
September 4th, 2013, 23:45
I need a label for the field on the character main page, character combat page, combat tracker entry (abbreviation) and modifier window button.

My suggestions are: "Flatfooted" "Flatfooted" "FF" "Surprised / Unaware" respectively.

S Ferguson
September 4th, 2013, 23:52
My vote is with Dr. V: AC(-DEX)

dr_venture
September 5th, 2013, 00:19
I also like "Surprised / Unaware." I mainly brought this up as previous ruleset releases have been very light on the documentation, and an unusual field name could cause confusion. If there were docs, I think it'd be less important what the field title was.

On another note, when the main page of the sheet was converted from the Sorcerer beta to the 3.0 beta, the specification of Secondary stats was lost (this is an optional rule in the CKG, so ostensibly no problem there), as was all automation surrounding races (which I ain't complaining about, BTW). However, the upshot of both of these omissions is that Half Elves of Human background cannot designate a stat as being a secondary stat. Personally, I consider that a fairly big pain in the kiester, as players and GMs will always have to make a note of it somewhere on the sheet, then remember to manually adjust any rolls on that stat only... ensuring that it gets missed some number of times.

A very simple solution which I had moped to implement on the previous beta would be to change the mechanism for selecting the primary stat from clicking on the stat name to using a tri-state check box, maybe like a dark dot for Primary, a 50% dark dot for a Secondary, and an empty circle for normal stats. That would solve both the half elf bug and allow the optional secondary stats option (and FWIW, Go Fer Yer Gun!, the Old West version of C&C, gives all characters 2 primaries and 2 secondaries, so it helps with at least that alternative game system - perhaps others?).

Not sure what you'd do with stat name color for primaries - maybe just leave all stats black and let the checkbox do all the delineating?

Moon Wizard
September 5th, 2013, 00:46
Unfortunately, "Surprised / Unaware" is too large. "Flat-footed" was just barely small enough. I did "(No Dex)" instead of "Flat-Footed" on character sheet, "NoDex" instead of "FF" on combat tracker entry and "No Dex" on modifier window button.

I removed the automation in the previous beta character sheet. It was hard to migrate, and seemed like it would be difficult to maintain, manage and debug. I really try to avoid making "character builder" features in the rulesets, since they are basically another entire product to build and maintain.

Actually, the +2 for half-elves (or alternate genre) can be added to the character sheet right now by using the mouse wheel to adjust the bonus for the relevant stat. This can be used to apply the Charisma racial attribute check bonus as well as the human lineage attribute check bonus.

JPG

dr_venture
September 5th, 2013, 02:55
While that will mathematically account for the bonus, adding the +2 to the Secondary stat instead of declaring it via a setting feels more like a workaround... which given the amount of work surrounding this release, is understandable. Hopefully we can address this in a future release.

S Ferguson
September 5th, 2013, 03:19
Indeed. Some of those racial abilities fail outright. Like the +2 Charisma bonus for empathizing isn't going to go to far with a dwarf. :) There must be some way of adding extra modifiers to the mix (mind you the window real estate *is* small).

dr_venture
September 5th, 2013, 03:53
I can certainly live with it for now... I'm just being a <bruce_campbell> WHINER-BABY! </bruce_campbell> :) I don't mean to dump more on moon's lap - he's going above and beyond for this, really the rebirth of the C&C ruleset. Once this release is solid, we can start looking at filling in the finer points. Looking forward to it!

S Ferguson
September 5th, 2013, 17:12
I can certainly live with it for now... I'm just being a <bruce_campbell> WHINER-BABY! </bruce_campbell> :) I don't mean to dump more on moon's lap - he's going above and beyond for this, really the rebirth of the C&C ruleset. Once this release is solid, we can start looking at filling in the finer points. Looking forward to it!

Oh these are sad times when passing ruffians can say Bruce Campbell lines to helpless players....

Moon Wizard
September 6th, 2013, 08:14
Just a quick note that the next alpha version that I'm planning shortly will require a re-import of existing campaigns.

I originally had simplified the NPC record to support several of the new features included with this updated version of the ruleset. However, due to the many different variations of NPC/monster records, there were lots of backward compatibility issues. So, instead of trying to go back and rebuild every module in the store, and not support any personally exported modules; I decided to take a different approach. I reverted the NPC simplifications and instead rewrote several portions of the CoreRPG layer and the C&C ruleset to handle multiple NPC/monster record types.

Cheers,
JPG

S Ferguson
September 6th, 2013, 20:06
They seem to be working A-OK. Cool beans.

Cheers,
SF

dr_venture
September 8th, 2013, 03:50
Combat Tracker > Menu: There is now a Rest menu item (very cool) that has two options - one is "Overnight Rest" which presumably heals everyone 1 point and resets spells for casters (I haven't confirmed the spell part yet).

What I'm wondering about is the second option, "Short Rest"... what does it do, if anything? As far as I'm aware, there is no automatic rule mechanic to associate with a short rest. I believe that temporary hit points heal at 1 point per 10 minutes (or something like that)... but that doesn't seem to really warrant a menu option, just to heal everyone of 1 point of temp damage. So what's up there?

Andraax
September 8th, 2013, 04:11
Combat Tracker > Menu: There is now a Rest menu item (very cool) that has two options - one is "Overnight Rest" which presumably heals everyone 1 point and resets spells for casters (I haven't confirmed the spell part yet).

What I'm wondering about is the second option, "Short Rest"... what does it do, if anything? As far as I'm aware, there is no automatic rule mechanic to associate with a short rest. I believe that temporary hit points heal at 1 point per 10 minutes (or something like that)... but that doesn't seem to really warrant a menu option, just to heal everyone of 1 point of temp damage. So what's up there?

A short rest does 2 things - resets the combat tracker (clears the active entry, resets the round counter, clears the GM identity, and runs any custom registered events for end of combat, like from extensions), and subtracts 50 rounds from all expiring effects (and removing those that are then expired).

dr_venture
September 8th, 2013, 04:34
Nice... glad I asked! That really needs to go into documentation somewhere :P

Andraax
September 8th, 2013, 05:37
Nice... glad I asked! That really needs to go into documentation somewhere :P

And if you're documenting, you should also document what an overnight rest does - reset temporary and non-lethal hits to 0, decrease wounds by 1, and reset all cast spells for spell users.

S Ferguson
September 12th, 2013, 02:17
Man, the documentation would be larger than the ruleset. A quite a few tomes, I'd say.

Cheers,
SF

Moon Wizard
September 13th, 2013, 07:33
New update to the dev version of the C&C ruleset.

Regards,
JPG

dr_venture
September 13th, 2013, 15:26
Everything to do with the draggable Abilities looks brilliant! It cleans up and simplifies both the character sheet and PHB, makes character creation and gameplay much easier. Great work everyone.

JohnD
September 13th, 2013, 16:14
So... still build in the 2.0 version or is moving to 3.0 for actual game play OK yet?

S Ferguson
September 13th, 2013, 17:05
Some of the things are still up in the air (not too many anymore) as 3.0 settles into the "beta" phase of it's alpha release. (confusing, I know, but...). I've been running My local game through 3.0 and aside from a few "hiccups" everything is hunky-dory. The sheer volume of improvements would put me in line for 3.0 playing, *but* it is still in the alpha stage. A big whooee! to all the changes! we're getting a stronger system by the day.

dberkompas
September 27th, 2013, 19:08
I've never played a game of C&C, but have been reading the books, blogs, forums and would love to try.


BoomerET

Andraax
September 27th, 2013, 19:12
I've never played a game of C&C, but have been reading the books, blogs, forums and would love to try.

Free tomorrow afternoon?

dberkompas
September 27th, 2013, 19:38
Andraxx,

Wow, I appreciate the offer, but I'm taking my son camping this weekend.

Weekdays are out as well.

I don't know if others are like me, but I have a hard time retaining things read on PDF's as opposed to dead-tree versions.

I ordered all the hardcovers offered on the latest Kickstarter, so hopefully I'll have those soon(ish?).


BoomerET

dr_venture
September 28th, 2013, 00:08
Folks, let me know what you think of the small button icons in the upper right. I'm trying to echo the brown with gold border, but had to tone down the border as it was way too distracting to me. How does it look now... acceptable? Too boxy? I like the white on the dark for the icons themselves, but am unsure about the borders.

There ya go, Scott - you mentioned you disliked the old 'stone' buttons, so I tried for something better for ya :)

JohnD
September 28th, 2013, 01:38
The new ones look fine - both CK and Player (I guess they're the same but I'm looking on two different monitors)... blend in nicely.

JohnD
September 28th, 2013, 06:47
Can someone please explain how the token to token targeting works? I had people who said they couldn't select tokens on the map to target in my game tonight.

Thanks.

Moon Wizard
September 28th, 2013, 07:02
The way token targeting should work:

Target with any token
* Select token(s) [left click to select/deselect, Shift+click to append to selection, use selection mode button or radial menu to select by region]
* Once selected, a black ring will appear around selected token(s)
* Specify targets [Ctrl+click to target/untarget token for all selected tokens, or use target mode button or radial menu to select by region]

If no tokens are selected, then Ruleset attempts to determine source token by using active CT or active identity.

Regards,
JPG

JohnD
September 28th, 2013, 07:06
The way token targeting should work:

Target with any token
* Select token(s) [left click to select/deselect, Shift+click to append to selection, use selection mode button or radial menu to select by region]
* Once selected, a black ring will appear around selected token(s)
* Specify targets [Ctrl+click to target/untarget token for all selected tokens, or use target mode button or radial menu to select by region]

If no tokens are selected, then Ruleset attempts to determine source token by using active CT or active identity.

Regards,
JPG

OK so essentially like how it works in 3.5/Pathfinder and even RMC?

Moon Wizard
September 28th, 2013, 08:01
It's very similar for GM, but different for players. They used to just left click to target.

Now, it's a single targeting interface for both players and GM; and targeting is directly visible on map instead of having to match to CT to see who is targeted.

Cheers,
JPG

JohnD
September 28th, 2013, 16:38
Yeah then the players were right, I don't think that this was working last night, even for the DM side. Had drag and drop the dice on tokens to attack.

S Ferguson
September 28th, 2013, 16:55
Folks, let me know what you think of the small button icons in the upper right. I'm trying to echo the brown with gold border, but had to tone down the border as it was way too distracting to me. How does it look now... acceptable? Too boxy? I like the white on the dark for the icons themselves, but am unsure about the borders.

There ya go, Scott - you mentioned you disliked the old 'stone' buttons, so I tried for something better for ya :)

And I appreciate it man. Interface looks good.

SF

Trenloe
September 28th, 2013, 17:18
Yeah then the players were right, I don't think that this was working last night, even for the DM side. Had drag and drop the dice on tokens to attack.
Are you using CTRL+Left-Click to target? If you do this the player will see an arrow go from their token to the token/s targeted.

The players (and the GM) need to hold down CTRL while they are left clicking. If they don't see the white targeting arrow then they haven't done it correctly.

JohnD
September 28th, 2013, 17:25
No we weren't... Will test shortly.

Noticed attacks from CT didn't take extra bonuses beyond BtH into account, so with BtH of 0 someone with a +2 sword would attack with a 0 modification.

Broad Sword +2 (2d4+2)

Above is the nomenclature used.

Trenloe
September 28th, 2013, 17:37
Looks like the buttons along the top of an image don't work: mask, draw, erase are greyed out and never come on when you press them. If you add a grid to an image the grid tool cannot be selected so you can't resize or move the grid, when tokens are on the map the select and target buttons don't do anything.

JohnD
September 28th, 2013, 17:39
Looks like the buttons along the top of an image don't work: mask, draw, erase are greyed out and never come on when you press them. If you add a grid to an image the grid tool cannot be selected so you can't resize or move the grid, when tokens are on the map the select and target buttons don't do anything.

Yes, noticed that too now that you remind me. Holding left CTRL and mouse click does draw the targeting line.

Trenloe
September 28th, 2013, 17:42
No we weren't... Will test shortly.
FYI - Left click (no CTRL) by a player will only allow then to select allies - SHIFT+Left-Click allows the selection of multiple allies. Handy for group movement all together - but this doesn't work with token movement locked.

A GM can select all tokens and move them around if they wish.

JohnD
September 28th, 2013, 22:45
No we weren't... Will test shortly.

Noticed attacks from CT didn't take extra bonuses beyond BtH into account, so with BtH of 0 someone with a +2 sword would attack with a 0 modification.

Broad Sword +2 (2d4+2)

Above is the nomenclature used.

Can someone please confirm that I am not the only one to notice this?

Andraax
September 28th, 2013, 23:10
Can someone please confirm that I am not the only one to notice this?

Did previous versions of this ruleset *ever* add a modifier from a weapon name into the calculations?

For this one, add an effect of "ATK: 2 melee" to the npcs wielding magical +2 weapons.

S Ferguson
September 28th, 2013, 23:41
No I don't believe it did. In C&C, weapons (that are +2 here for sake of argument) the +2 has to take place in a certain order. The field doesn't have anything pulled out, the extra +2 in the name being just a descriptor, and it would be typically written as Broadsword (2d6 + 4) for rolling results. It has the caveat can hit magical creatures for normal damage, or half -damage depending. This has sort of always been in the ruleset. Besides the bonuses, say for a masterworked weapon, the +2 from that is indistinct from any other +2 bonus, be it magic, a magical weapon, or whatnot. The name field is exactly that; a name. I did notice this. but it isn't too much trouble to work around so I didn't complain.

Cheers,
SF

JohnD
September 29th, 2013, 01:08
Hmm... well, a) I could swear it was working when I was creating the creature's attacks and testing, and b) in an earlier version of 3.0, but it sounds like that isn't everyone else's experience so maybe I had taken too much crystal blue persuasion.

Seem like this would be something to implement though.

S Ferguson
September 29th, 2013, 01:45
That's one of the problems of using an alpha to mitigate the game. Occasionally things slip out due to the underlay code of the CoreRPG, and sometimes they're neat. My question though is how do I disambiguate that this is a magical sword +2 and this fine masterworked sword +2 are different items. Both would be Broadsword +2, which would confuse things. perhaps an extra box for enchantments on the weapon status sheet would be apropos.

JohnD
September 29th, 2013, 01:47
Yeah, in this case, the magic portion of it was just an example. The NPC really had the bonus due to a stat.

dr_venture
October 13th, 2013, 07:55
Latest testing results with the C&C ruleset:

* When you roll on a table with a positive or negative modifier that causes the result to be higher or lower than the top or bottom of the table, the result comes back as "[Unable to find result row or column]" - I would suggest simply returning the first or last result of the table as the result instead of the error.

* The BtH of the Fighter class is incorrect in the PHB - it shows Lvl 1 with a BtH of 0 with +1/level after that, but it should actually start with a BtH of 1.

* Inventory doesn't allow duplicate items, but rather changes the quantity if duplicates are dragged in. This is a problem when indicating that items are carried in 2 separate places, like one quiver of arrows on the back, and another hung from the belt. Also, multiple belt pouches or sacks with separate contents are not possible.

Will post more as I find them.

Andraax
October 13th, 2013, 14:43
* Inventory doesn't allow duplicate items, but rather changes the quantity if duplicates are dragged in. This is a problem when indicating that items are carried in 2 separate places, like one quiver of arrows on the back, and another hung from the belt. Also, multiple belt pouches or sacks with separate contents are not possible.

I'm not so sure the current functionality should be changed. If you want more than one, drag it in, change the name (like add "on back" to the end), drag another, change the name, drag another, and so on. If you drag an item that is identical to the current one, it *should* change the quantity in my opinion.

S Ferguson
October 13th, 2013, 14:55
I'm not so sure the current functionality should be changed. If you want more than one, drag it in, change the name (like add "on back" to the end), drag another, change the name, drag another, and so on. If you drag an item that is identical to the current one, it *should* change the quantity in my opinion.

The only trouble with that is the ammo counter. How would you specify to the weapons sheet what quiver you're using? This, I think is a lot more functionality than it's worth due to it's complexity. It's a sad day when we can't impose our opinion on a mere automaton. :)

@Dr_V: fixed the BtH.

Cheers,
SF

Andraax
October 13th, 2013, 17:20
The only trouble with that is the ammo counter. How would you specify to the weapons sheet what quiver you're using?

It doesn't update the ammo counter now. Has to be done manually.

S Ferguson
October 13th, 2013, 18:21
It doesn't update the ammo counter now. Has to be done manually.

Correction: It would be difficult to discern between the two different quivers, say. I know the ammo counter has to be updated manually but imagine the havoc wreaked by having multiple quivers to draw from.

I would like to see the ammo counter reinstated however. But that's just me.:)

Regards,
SF

Andraax
October 13th, 2013, 18:36
Correction: It would be difficult to discern between the two different quivers, say. I know the ammo counter has to be updated manually but imagine the havoc wreaked by having multiple quivers to draw from.

Not really; easiest way I can see to do that is to have multiple bow entries on the combat screen and have one tied to each quiver. But I don't really see a need to have *that* much automation. Most of the time the archer is going to draw from one quiver and only use the other one to periodically reload the quiver he draws from. It's easy enough to manually adjust the ammo counter when this action is declared.

dr_venture
October 13th, 2013, 18:53
I'm not so sure the current functionality should be changed. If you want more than one, drag it in, change the name (like add "on back" to the end), drag another, change the name, drag another, and so on. If you drag an item that is identical to the current one, it *should* change the quantity in my opinion.

Hmmm... I'm conflicted - I see your point in one sense, but it's still problematic. I have 2 quivers, one on the belt and one on the back, so I wind up renaming them "Arrows, back (20)" and "Arrows, belt (20)"... which is totally redundant, as the field right next to the item name indicates where they are located. I could use "1" and "2" I guess... just seems kinda lame to have to append numbers to items in order to force the inventory to allow me to list them separately.

Then there are the candles: bought the "Candles (5)" item (oh how I loathe the bunching of items in FG like that - each item in the PHB should be for a single item, because as soon as you use one, the name, EV, weight, and price all become inaccurate). I want to put 4 candles in a backpack, which works fine, but I want another candle in a belt pouch... which means I have to change the names of the candles to allow it.

To me, that seems as illogical as having multiple items with the same name, but more irritating. YMMV, of course.

S Ferguson
October 13th, 2013, 19:00
Not really; easiest way I can see to do that is to have multiple bow entries on the combat screen and have one tied to each quiver. But I don't really see a need to have *that* much automation. Most of the time the archer is going to draw from one quiver and only use the other one to periodically reload the quiver he draws from. It's easy enough to manually adjust the ammo counter when this action is declared.

Well, there's the screen real estate to think about but switching quivers would be a round. It just, to me at least, seems like the easiest solution would be to have to manually check which quiver the archer is firing from. Simulates the turn and the action of switching quivers. The only time you would need both would be if the arrows, for sake of argument, were of different types, or "laid out and ready to hold the line." Alternately, drawing from two quivers would then just be a matter of having different quivers listed below the weapon - proving that they differ. Otherwise you have to spend the round reloading and readying the quiver. That's my simple solution. Of course an argument could be made for the "readied" status of quivers, and declare that it's just as easy to draw from one as from the other, but unless there was reason to, realistically speaking, there never would be a reason to (you are keeping track of your own ammunition and drawing from one quiver makes this a heck of a lot easier). In fact if the arrows don't differ and both quivers are "readied" you could just increase the number of arrows in the ammo box.

S Ferguson
October 13th, 2013, 19:02
Hmmm... I'm conflicted - I see your point in one sense, but it's still problematic. I have 2 quivers, one on the belt and one on the back, so I wind up renaming them "Arrows, back (20)" and "Arrows, belt (20)"... which is totally redundant, as the field right next to the item name indicates where they are located. I could use "1" and "2" I guess... just seems kinda lame to have to append numbers to items in order to force the inventory to allow me to list them separately.

Then there are the candles: bought the "Candles (5)" item (oh how I loathe the bunching of items in FG like that - each item in the PHB should be for a single item, because as soon as you use one, the name, EV, weight, and price all become inaccurate). I want to put 4 candles in a backpack, which works fine, but I want another candle in a belt pouch... which means I have to change the names of the candles to allow it.

To me, that seems as illogical as having multiple items with the same name, but more irritating. YMMV, of course.

YMMV? Qu'est que se?

SF

dr_venture
October 13th, 2013, 19:04
BUG: the inventory EV values definitely don't add up correctly when containers are involved.

1) Create a blank character.
2) Put a backpack in its inventory - the encumbrance will correctly show as "2."
3) Add a bedroll (EV 3) to its inventory - the encumbrance will correctly show as "5."
4) Change the bedroll's location to be "Backpack"

BUG: The character's Total Weight Carried now incorrectly reads "0" when it should read "2" - the backpack's EV Capacity of 8 should simply eliminate the bedroll's EV of 3, but the Backpack's own base EV of "2" should be added to the character's Total Weight Carried.

Furthermore, the Bedroll still has a button to declare whether the bedroll is carried or not, or worn. This button should be hidden for items in containers and its encumbrance should be determined by the worn/not worn/carried status of the container.

5) Set the bedroll's location to 'blank' (or "Not Carried").

RESULT: The character's Total Weight Carried now correctly reads "2"

dr_venture
October 13th, 2013, 19:05
YMMV? Qu'est que se?

"Your Mileage May Vary" (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/your_mileage_may_vary)

S Ferguson
October 13th, 2013, 19:07
BUG: the inventory EV values definitely don't add up correctly when containers are involved.

1) Create a blank character.
2) Put a backpack in its inventory - the encumbrance will correctly show as "2."
3) Add a bedroll (EV 3) to its inventory - the encumbrance will correctly show as "5."
4) Change the bedroll's location to be "Backpack"

BUG: The encumbrance now incorrectly reads "0" when it should read "2" - the backpack's EV Capacity of 8 should simply eliminate the bedroll's EV of 3.

Furthermore, the Bedroll still has a button to declare whether the bedroll is carried or not, or worn. This button should be hidden for items in containers and its encumbrance should be determined by the worn/not worn/carried status of the container.

5) Set the bedroll's location to 'blank' (or "Not Carried").

RESULT: The character's Total Weight Carried now correctly reads "2"

I take it that you've had more problems with your steamer trunks? I think that this is a problem with the capacity items encumbrance, rather than the capacity items capacity. For the record, the capacity item just redistributes the weight; you still have to have some way of knowing what's in you pack. That backpack can only hold up to an EV 8 so it doesn't *really* negate the weight, it merely redistributes the weight it can hold. You still can't throw 3 bedrolls in a pack and expect it to work which, last I checked, was handled

EDIT: I checked what happens when 3 bedrolls are thrown in a backpack and the encumbrance incorrectly reads 6. rather than 5 (2 for the backpack, 2 bedrolls in the backpack, and one carried. It seems to aggregate multiple Items and incorrectly applies them. Two pouches for example gives a virtual nightmare. Is there capacity 1 or 2? It doesn't calculate these well either; Try throwing those 3 bedrolls into your two large belt pouches.

To me it definitely looks like a logic problem.

Regards,
SF

dr_venture
October 14th, 2013, 00:57
Another bug: dragging almost any weapon from the Arms and Armor guide into weapons listing area of the Combat tab automatically creates two versions of the weapon: a melee version and a ranged version. I'm guessing that this is because the scrip on this page assumes that anything with a 'range' is able to be used at range, such as a dagger... which is reasonable. Unfortunately the weapons in the Arms and Armor module all have a 'range' which is really the equivalent of 'reach.'

damned
October 14th, 2013, 01:36
Would it be best to update Arms & Armour to remove Range from Melee weapons or to change it to Reach if that can be displayed?
How are spears from the PHB currently displayed being they are both melee and ranged?

Andraax
October 14th, 2013, 04:10
Hey, you can throw *any* weapon. ;-)

damned
October 14th, 2013, 07:43
but my crossbow has never hit the barn door since i threw it at one of my players last year...

S Ferguson
October 14th, 2013, 14:29
Another bug: dragging almost any weapon from the Arms and Armor guide into weapons listing area of the Combat tab automatically creates two versions of the weapon: a melee version and a ranged version. I'm guessing that this is because the scrip on this page assumes that anything with a 'range' is able to be used at range, such as a dagger... which is reasonable. Unfortunately the weapons in the Arms and Armor module all have a 'range' which is really the equivalent of 'reach.'

Actually daggers weren't meant for throwing, you needed a more balanced blade or a weighted blade for swords. Hey if Conan could throw swords like spears into howling mad demon-spiders why can't we?. The entries in Arms and Armor don't list range for melee weapons - it's officially marked "-" but only in the charts.. It's only "internally" that it has a "range" which is supposed to be read reach. Is there even a need for a reach stat? Certain weapons like Glaives and whatnot are useless at short ranges, in which you can get past their guard and small weapons aren't very helpful at a distance. C&C is not really a combat crunching type of game, say like, Rolemaster is.

Poll: are the relative reaches important, save for the free attack a longer reach weapon gets on a closing opponent?

Cheers,
SF

S Ferguson
October 14th, 2013, 14:30
but my crossbow has never hit the barn door since i threw it at one of my players last year...

Aim better next time.:)

dr_venture
October 17th, 2013, 03:30
Actually daggers weren't meant for throwing, you needed a more balanced blade or a weighted blade for swords.

Regardless, many GMs allow daggers to be thrown at a 10' range. Also, the PHB lists several weapons under "Melee" - not ranged or missile - that are clearly meant to be used as ranged weapons.

As for "Reach" I'd like to see it included because... why not? It's info I can use to GM my games more easily, or ignore if I choose. I like that choice to be in my control.

S Ferguson
October 17th, 2013, 04:11
Regardless, many GMs allow daggers to be thrown at a 10' range. Also, the PHB lists several weapons under "Melee" - not ranged or missile - that are clearly meant to be used as ranged weapons.

As for "Reach" I'd like to see it included because... why not? It's info I can use to GM my games more easily, or ignore if I choose. I like that choice to be in my control.

Just to be pedantic (because I so enjoy that word) the weapons listed as having a range under the melee section, have the *option* of being thrown, i.e. a spear or trident were much more effective as stabbing weapons than thrown weapons; javelins were meant to be thrown. That's why you have a Axe, Throwing under melee (where it's much better placed as a hacking weapon than a thrown weapon. It lead to some interesting weapon designs for throwing knives and such (the pinnicle being the chakram). But that's just being pedantic.

Reach is really only applicable when the defender has, say, a polearm and can get an attack in before an opponent reaches him. The same could be said if the poor sod with the polearm has that as his only weapon and the opponent gets behind his guard. IMHO this could be narrated rather than adding tactical ethos to a game that doesn't even have a scaled map. The info you need is right there in the PHB. A "why not" list can get pretty large, pretty fast. I say just choose the rules you're going to use and be done with it.

But that's just a late night opinion.

Cheers,
SF

dr_venture
October 17th, 2013, 05:48
But that's just being pedantic.

I'm not sure of the need for the detailed explanation - I'd be surprised if any GM was unaware that weapons with ranges are not required to be thrown, but can *optionally* be thrown... pretty obvious. *shrugs*


Reach is really only applicable when the defender has, say, a polearm and can get an attack in before an opponent reaches him. The same could be said if the poor sod with the polearm has that as his only weapon and the opponent gets behind his guard. IMHO this could be narrated rather than adding tactical ethos to a game that doesn't even have a scaled map. The info you need is right there in the PHB. A "why not" list can get pretty large, pretty fast. I say just choose the rules you're going to use and be done with it.

The reach/range data is simply a text display option - I can't imagine why a long list would exist to be either in favor or against the inclusion of data... it's just not that big of a deal. In short, you may not see the need for Reach in your game, but your declarative statement "Reach is really only applicable" is simply inaccurate. I can think of a couple of additional places where it'd be useful. Heck, when is it unimportant to know at least the approximate length of a weapon... and if approximate, why not just show a number that is precise? Since the question is about whether data should be shown or not, why in the world wouldn't you choose the 'inclusive' option of displaying slightly more info and catering to a larger number of GM styles (it's available to those who want it, and can be easily ignored by others), rather than the 'exclusive' option of making some people look it up who don't want to have to? It's not like it's a huge programming task or the interface is littered with redundant info, and the data is already in the modules. If you want to have to look things up in the PHB, that's fine, nut I'd like to have it handy without doing so - why deny me the convenience?

The caveat here is that I'm assuming the programming required is minimal to make it range to reach conversion work correctly - if it's a big deal to make it work, then obviously it's not worth it, as the data is available in the PHB, and small convenience isn't worth the additional dev work.

S Ferguson
October 17th, 2013, 17:37
I'm not sure of the need for the detailed explanation - I'd be surprised if any GM was unaware that weapons with ranges are not required to be thrown, but can *optionally* be thrown... pretty obvious. *shrugs*



The reach/range data is simply a text display option - I can't imagine why a long list would exist to be either in favor or against the inclusion of data... it's just not that big of a deal. In short, you may not see the need for Reach in your game, but your declarative statement "Reach is really only applicable" is simply inaccurate. I can think of a couple of additional places where it'd be useful. Heck, when is it unimportant to know at least the approximate length of a weapon... and if approximate, why not just show a number that is precise? Since the question is about whether data should be shown or not, why in the world wouldn't you choose the 'inclusive' option of displaying slightly more info and catering to a larger number of GM styles (it's available to those who want it, and can be easily ignored by others), rather than the 'exclusive' option of making some people look it up who don't want to have to? It's not like it's a huge programming task or the interface is littered with redundant info, and the data is already in the modules. If you want to have to look things up in the PHB, that's fine, nut I'd like to have it handy without doing so - why deny me the convenience?

The caveat here is that I'm assuming the programming required is minimal to make it range to reach conversion work correctly - if it's a big deal to make it work, then obviously it's not worth it, as the data is available in the PHB, and small convenience isn't worth the additional dev work.

Given the programming side, I'm of the impression that it requires to much dev work for too little gain.

With that said, most of the "reach" statistics, in not just C&C but in RPG's in general, are abstracted to facilitate game play (Rolemaster excepted). After all. a sword wielded by a fifteen stone six footer would have a significant advantage in "reach" with equally long weapons over his 5'6 opponent. My specific example out of the PHB was not a pure declarative statement with the word "really" in there; I *am* giving benefit of the doubt after all - it wasn't meant to be a sweeping, brush everything under the carpet statement. Hey, if you want to actualize tactical combat at that level do so.

I'm just generally under the impression that if it's not enhancing play, it's taking away from it. This is just my humble opinion however. I'd like to hear of the few other examples you thought up, however, as I always keep an open mind (except with steamer trunks); we all know what combatants are assumed to be doing, and, aye, there lies the rub.

It's not really a question of denying anyone anything. It's what is "true" to the rules given a small bit of automation. You don't throw all your tools into one case *just* on the off-hand chance you might need one; you bring the ones for the job, and if you find you need more you add them later. Heck, if you want reach to matter, more power to you; heck, extensions were designed for this sort of thing.

Cheers,
SF

Moon Wizard
October 17th, 2013, 18:10
I didn't read all the discussion, but the net is that range ~= 0 implies ranged or thrown in the ruleset. It's used that way across multiple rulesets.

Therefore, if there is a desire for the weapon "length" data, it will need to be stored in a different field. Best place would be the description field similar to what was done for the Arms and Armor module extra data. If someone adds the data to the description fields, I will update the modules.

Regards ,
JPG

dr_venture
October 18th, 2013, 04:51
Makes sense. I don't have the bandwidth for dev right now, and I'm guessing that Scott isn't interested, so this can easily be put on the back burner for a potential future version.

S Ferguson
October 18th, 2013, 14:46
I was interested, but the additional material isn't publishable in an official product, and the only other way is by having redundant code over two items (Arms & Armor and PHB). I gave up. I tried, though. Oh and we're on "test" now. We've moved into beta territory!

Cheers,
SF

dr_venture
October 20th, 2013, 23:27
BUG: the inventory EV values definitely don't add up correctly when containers are involved.

1) Create a blank character.
2) Put a backpack in its inventory - the encumbrance will correctly show as "2."
3) Add a bedroll (EV 3) to its inventory - the encumbrance will correctly show as "5."
4) Change the bedroll's location to be "Backpack"

BUG: The character's Total Weight Carried now incorrectly reads "0" when it should read "2" - the backpack's EV Capacity of 8 should simply eliminate the bedroll's EV of 3, but the Backpack's own base EV of "2" should be added to the character's Total Weight Carried.

Furthermore, the Bedroll still has a button to declare whether the bedroll is carried or not, or worn. This button should be hidden for items in containers and its encumbrance should be determined by the worn/not worn/carried status of the container.

5) Set the bedroll's location to 'blank' (or "Not Carried").

RESULT: The character's Total Weight Carried now correctly reads "2"

Moon, I saw that an update you posted a few days ago mentioned you fixed errors in the EV calculation - I just want to verify that this bug has not been fixed. As the inventory currently stands, there is no benefit from putting inventory items into a "capacity" object.

As I understand it (and you probably do to, as you somehow manage to pick up the details of a number of systems!) the capacity object (i.e., let's use the backpack as our example here) has it's own EV value (i.e., 2) which is added to the character's total encumbrance. The backpack has an EV Capacity rating that represents the amount of weight that it can hold (effectively, the number of EV points that are basically negated from the items placed within the pack. I don't know how you would want to handle "over-packing" an item by putting more EV into it than can be put there. My approach when implementing was to just subtract the backpack's 8 EV Capacity from the total of the items within, and if there was more than 8 EV worth of items in the pack, the excess just wasn't negated... meaning that if you put 9 EV worth of stuff into the backpack, the total EV of the pack and it's contents was 3 (2 for the pack's own EV, and the 1 EV from the contents that was 'overpacked'). It was easy to calculate, and seemed like a simple solution.

Right now, the current "test" build still shows what is described above, where the backpack is not affecting the EV of the contents placed inside.

S Ferguson
October 20th, 2013, 23:44
Followed your instructions to the tee and got an encumbrance value of 2 not 0. I cannot reproduce this error. It does have "overspill" when it comes down to capacity items throw 6 swords and 3 bedrolls in one. one of the bedrolls will show up in the "encumbrance counter. You didn't miss an update did you?

Cheers,
SF

dr_venture
October 21st, 2013, 00:01
DOH! you're right, the line that reads "0" is incorrect - the number should be "5"! AND... it identified the real bug: when I type the name "backpack" (lower case "b") the inventory shows the bedroll as indented - i.e., in the Backpack... however the total EV reads as 5, meaning the bedroll isn't being calculated as being inside the backpack.

If I change the spelling of the bedroll's location to "Backpack" (with the capital 'B'), the bedroll still shows as being inside the backpack, but now the total EV is correctly calculated as "2".

So, that would be a new bug: either the EV calculations need to be based on a case-insensitive comparison of location/container names, or the Inventory needs to be updated to not show items as being inside containers when their names are not a case-sensative match.

Nice work, Scott. :)

dr_venture
October 21st, 2013, 00:17
Another bug:

I keep throwing bedrolls into the inventory (each with a EV of 3) each one is added to the backpack (EV capacity of 8). The problem is, I can throw 8 bedrolls in, a total of 24 EV, into the backpack that has a EV capacity of 8. When I add a 9th bedroll, the character's total EV encombrance goes up to 5 (the backpack plus 1 bedroll). After testing the same thing with an Awl (EV of 1), the bug looks to be that the calculations are using the backpack's "EV Capacity" value to determine the number of items that can be carried in the backpack... thus the pack can equally carry 8 Awls, or 8 Anvils - they are the same... which is a bug.

The "EV Capacity" of a container represents the total amount of EV that the backpack can contain, not the number of items. The backpack with a EV Capacity of 8 can hold 2 bedrolls (3 EV each) with a capacity of 2 EV to spare. If you put 3 bedrolls (a total of 9 EV) into the pack (8 capacity), the pack and its contents should have a combined EVE total of 3 EV (2 for the base EV of the backpack itself, and 1 for the 'overpacking' of the 9 EV of bedrolls into a 8 EV capacity pack).

S Ferguson
October 21st, 2013, 00:26
I think this was part of the planned changes when the text thing-a-ma-jiggy is complete, then we have EV rather than weight; and the case sensitivity will be fixed. Funny, I swore it was case insensitive in the code, but now that I look at it, it's so that Steamer Trunks can be made into capacity items and they won't get confused with "steamer trunks."

I think the way the rules are being interpreted is that a capacity object can hold a number of items, as up long as they don't have an EV rating greater than its capacity value. Any carried items do not add to Encumbrance. If there are 9 items in the backpack with have an EV of 3 (which is less than the backpack capacity of 8). The first 8 items do not count towards Encumbrance, but the 9th item does.

From PHB:

CAPACITY OBJECTS


Items that are designed to carry and redistribute the weight and bulk of other
items are called Capacity Items. Capacity Items can carry a number of items
equal to their Capacity. Furthermore, a Capacity Item cannot carry any item
whose EV is equal to or greater than it’s Capacity rating. So a Backpack, with
a Capacity of 8, can carry up to 8 items whose EVs are 7 or less.


Items that are carried in a Capacity item do not have their EV included
in the character’s Encumbrance Total. Instead, the character only notes
the EV of the Capacity item. So the character wearing an EV 2 Backpack
that has a Bedroll (EV 3), hammer (EV 2), 50 nails (EV 1), and one torch
(EV 1) has five items in the Backpack (and thus has space for three more
items). The character’s Encumbrance Rating is only increased by 2 when
they carry the Backpack, ignoring the EVs of the items inside of it.

The emphasis I think that is being taken is the 1st paragraph of that passage. the example isn't clear about what the other items might be which clouds the issue. 3 more items of, say, EV 6?Them is the joys of sticking to the rules. The only other viable option, is to not auto-calculate, and have it as a fill in field - which would suck, and throw us three steps backwards. After a *long* thread with Moon this seems like the most viable option short of taking it out. Apparently it's drawn the most coding for what seems like very little payback in the rules over all.

Hope this helps,
SF.

Moon Wizard
October 21st, 2013, 00:58
As SF was saying, the latest incarnation of the C&C rules state that the EV capacity of a container equates to the number of objects that can be carried in the container as long as the EV value for the carried object is less than the EV capacity value for the container.

The labels will be fixed later, but I will look at case sensitivity as well.

Regards,
JPG

damned
October 21st, 2013, 02:20
I read it the same way... very interesting interpretation by the Trolls...

Andraax
October 21st, 2013, 17:19
I keep throwing bedrolls into the inventory (each with a EV of 3) each one is added to the backpack (EV capacity of 8). The problem is, I can throw 8 bedrolls in, a total of 24 EV, into the backpack that has a EV capacity of 8. When I add a 9th bedroll, the character's total EV encombrance goes up to 5 (the backpack plus 1 bedroll). After testing the same thing with an Awl (EV of 1), the bug looks to be that the calculations are using the backpack's "EV Capacity" value to determine the number of items that can be carried in the backpack... thus the pack can equally carry 8 Awls, or 8 Anvils - they are the same... which is a bug.


Actually, it's not. That's the RAW:


Items that are designed to carry and redistribute the weight and bulk of other items are called Capacity Items. Capacity Items can carry a number of items equal to their Capacity. Furthermore, a Capacity Item cannot carry any item whose EV is equal to or greater than it's Capacity rating. So a Backpack, with a Capacity of 8, can carry up to 8 items whose EVs are 7 or less.

Items that are carried in a Capacity item do not have their EV included in the character's Encumbrance Total. Instead, the character only notes the EV of the Capacity item. So the character wearing an EV 2 Backpack that has a Bedroll (EV 3), hammer (EV 2), 50 nails (EV 1), and one torch (EV 1) has five items in the Backpack (and thus has space for three more items). The character's Encumbrance Rating is only increased by 2 when they carry the Backpack, ignoring the EVs of the items inside of it.

dr_venture
October 22nd, 2013, 05:08
Clearly I misread the PHB. I hear a house rule calling my name...

Andraax
October 22nd, 2013, 20:12
Clearly I misread the PHB. I hear a a house rule calling my name...

They changed it between version 4 and version 5. The 3.0 ruleset uses version 5.

dr_venture
October 22nd, 2013, 20:51
They changed it between version 4 and version 5. The 3.0 ruleset uses version 5.

Well it's good that the ruleset is doing what it officially should... but what a horrible change - a backpack can only hold 8 awls. Of course, even under the old rules, it could only hold an 8 pound grease crock and nothing else. Streamlining rules is great, as long as sensibility doesn't fly out the window at the same time. The EV system, in it's current implementation... not one of C&C's strong points :P Off my soapbox now, thanks for listening ;)

On another note, it looks like at least some items that had a footnote associated with their EVs in the PDF version of the PHB had those footnote numbers combined with their EV... so the Canteen with an EV of 1 with a tiny "1" footnote next to it now has an EV of 11 in the PHB. Same thing with the "Case, Map or Scroll" right below it, which also has an EV of 11. Haven't had time to look through for others. So there, have a bug... they're free!

S Ferguson
October 23rd, 2013, 23:27
Well it's good that the ruleset is doing what it officially should... but what a horrible change - a backpack can only hold 8 awls. Of course, even under the old rules, it could only hold an 8 pound grease crock and nothing else. Streamlining rules is great, as long as sensibility doesn't fly out the window at the same time. The EV system, in it's current implementation... not one of C&C's strong points :P Off my soapbox now, thanks for listening ;)

On another note, it looks like at least some items that had a footnote associated with their EVs in the PDF version of the PHB had those footnote numbers combined with their EV... so the Canteen with an EV of 1 with a tiny "1" footnote next to it now has an EV of 11 in the PHB. Same thing with the "Case, Map or Scroll" right below it, which also has an EV of 11. Haven't had time to look through for others. So there, have a bug... they're free!

Luckily those were the only two items with that type of footnote. Your objections have been duly noted and corrected. In the meantime you always have your steamer trunk to hold your excess items in.

Cheers,
SF

damned
October 24th, 2013, 11:00
The EV system, in it's current implementation... not one of C&C's strong points
...but it sure makes things easier to manage.

dr_venture
October 24th, 2013, 21:25
...but it sure makes things easier to manage.

If I'm going with 'unrealistic' anyway, I find it easiest to just ignore encumbrance altogether ;) Now *that's* old school.

S Ferguson
October 25th, 2013, 02:00
If I'm going with 'unrealistic' anyway, I find it easiest to just ignore encumbrance altogether ;) Now *that's* old school.

Old school, but really house ruled. The Encumbrance system works if you use it properly and keep an eye on the characters possessions so it doesn't get out of hand. Working *with* it is old-school. And compared to, say AD&D 1e, it's a lot more realistic than that (which is why you have your steamer trunks). Embrace the System. You'll love it. It's a way of life.:)

Cheers,
SF

damned
October 25th, 2013, 12:29
Encumbrance is a PITA at the best of times.
Anything that puts some restraints on the players without turning me into a PITA is great!

S Ferguson
October 25th, 2013, 22:40
Encumbrance is a PITA at the best of times.
Anything that puts some restraints on the players without turning me into a PITA is great!

You're probably a fan of equipment wear and tear out of the CKG, then (Gosh I love those rules).

Cheers,
SF

damned
October 25th, 2013, 23:02
When players drop a weapon in combat - either to change weapons or because of a critical fumble (or critical hit by their opponent) I make them drop a d10 - a 1 results in damage to their weapon. Its only happened once so far so Im still not positive the players know why they are dropping the d10 :)

S Ferguson
October 25th, 2013, 23:17
When players drop a weapon in combat - either to change weapons or because of a critical fumble (or critical hit by their opponent) I make them drop a d10 - a 1 results in damage to their weapon. Its only happened once so far so Im still not positive the players know why they are dropping the d10 :)

Well the secret's out now! :D

Cheers,
SF

damned
October 25th, 2013, 23:26
Nah - suckers dont read these forums...

dr_venture
November 3rd, 2013, 03:08
Bug: Dwarves have two draggable abilities that are very similar: Resistance to Fear (CHA-based save) and Resistance to Poison (CON-based save). When you drag those abilities to a character sheet, Resistance to Poison has the CON attribute associated with it, while the Resistance to Fear has not attribute assigned to it. I would argue that Resistance to Fear should have the CHA attribute assigned to it, and that since both abilities carry a +2 bonus, that both should have a +2 bonus associated with them - if not, then the character is not getting any additional bonus beyond what any other character gets.

dr_venture
November 3rd, 2013, 04:50
Getting a script error when I try to double-click on an Ability die to roll into chat:

Script Error: [string "scripts/manager_action_ability.lua"]:74: attempt to concatenate global 'sAbilityStat' (a nil value)

This is a partially completed new character - he does have all his attributes filled in, and a level... so the calculation should have everything it needs in that sense.

dr_venture
November 4th, 2013, 23:39
The "Fearless" Ability for Halflings gives a +2 bonus on all saves vs. fear... which is a CHA check. Seems to me the ability should be set to the CHA stat and have the bonus automatically set at +2.

dr_venture
November 4th, 2013, 23:47
The "Special" ability for rogues is all about how their chosen AC might affect their use of other abilities. While the label "Special" may be exactly what appears in the PHB, it is unnecessarily vague for use in FG... the label essentially tells you absolutely nothing other than there is something you have to click on to read. It would be much more useful to have the label read something like, "Special (re. rogue AC)" so at least the player's memory is jogged on seeing the title.

EDIT: The string "Special (how AC affects rogue ability use)" fits easily within the minimum page width, and is far more informative.

Magnatude
November 5th, 2013, 17:38
Hey guys, our C&C Sunday group made the change to the test. Awesome job, Our GM was extremely impressed with all the new functionality.
And it s nice to see the efforts being made here to keep us informed about some of the glitches.
Thanks, everyone.

dr_venture
November 5th, 2013, 18:31
JPG has really come through on the C&C ruleset - there are a few things that I'd love to see happen, but that's just me being fussy - the reality is that the new ruleset is much superior to the one I was working on. He's been super responsive to input on C&C-specific features, even with the rest of his sizable workload on this release. And now that C&C is based on the RPGCore ruleset, all/most/many (?) of the updates there will be inherited by C&C, which is a win for us C&C players and for Smiteworks in that their future dev efforts on RPGCore will be leveraged into more benefit for more people.

I only previously took on the dev role for C&C in an effort to make sure it didn't languish (which it really was doing), and I had the only code base (at the time) that was a significant step forward from it's bare bones origins. Now we don't have to worry about that anymore!

dberkompas
November 6th, 2013, 06:12
As I get deeper and deeper into creating a Hero Lab plug-in for Castles & Crusades, I'm also looking at the import/export XML abilities so I can eventually import characters into FG.

That being said, I was clicking on the Attributes, and they appear to start off brown, clicking them once turns them Red, which it says is Primary. Then if you click it again, it turns blue, indicating Secondary.

Now unless I'm mistaken, Attributes are either Primary or Secondary, so what's with the Brown Attribute. Or possibly just something due to programming, core game system carry-over?


BoomerET

damned
November 6th, 2013, 06:49
secondary attributes is an optional rule.

dr_venture
November 6th, 2013, 06:55
There is an optional rule in the Castle Keeper's Guide that allows for attributes to have three states: Primary, Secondary, and Tertiary... which is just a third target number between the other two for successful rolls. The new ruleset allows for this optional rule (the blue setting). The naming scheme that C&C uses is a bit confusing because of the naming scheme ("tertiary" is added at the 'bottom' of the list) while the target success number is in between the two default settings. So we just went with the names used with teh optional rule, and assume that players will just not use the blue/"secondary" setting if they're not using that optional rule.

dberkompas
November 6th, 2013, 06:59
I'm working in 5th Edition. Maybe secondary attributes were optional in a previous edition?
Pg. 8 in PHB:


There are two types of attributes: primary and secondary. Primary
attributes are those physical or mental abilities in which a character
is particularly well trained or very experienced in using. Secondary
attributes are those the character uses with only average skill.


Posted the above before Dr Venture posted.

Thanks Dr. V, I appreciate the help. I'm not that far yet in the PHB, still waiting on my hardcovers. My retention from hardcovers seems to be much better than reading PDF's.


BoomerET

dr_venture
November 6th, 2013, 07:16
Note that the optional rule appears on page 230 the Castle Keeper's Guide, not the Player's Handbook. In part it reads,


Castles & Crusades is designed with only a primary and secondary attribute
system; however, it is possible to add tertiary attributes to the mix without
unduly affecting game play.

The Castle Keeper's Guide is kind of interesting, in that it genuinely is completely optional to even use to play the game. All of the info in it is truly optional, and meant just for the GM to pick and choose from to expand and/or modify their game.

damned
November 6th, 2013, 09:42
so... to clarify one more time - i should ditch my current campaign based on 2.9.4 plus the DrV Beta Ruleset and move to FG3 Beta? Do I need to download a new ruleset?

S Ferguson
November 6th, 2013, 15:00
As I get deeper and deeper into creating a Hero Lab plug-in for Castles & Crusades, I'm also looking at the import/export XML abilities so I can eventually import characters into FG.

That being said, I was clicking on the Attributes, and they appear to start off brown, clicking them once turns them Red, which it says is Primary. Then if you click it again, it turns blue, indicating Secondary.

Now unless I'm mistaken, Attributes are either Primary or Secondary, so what's with the Brown Attribute. Or possibly just something due to programming, core game system carry-over?


BoomerET

As Dr. V has already pointed out there are rules for tertiary stats, but they are not implemented in the system as it stands. The red iare your primary stats, the blue secondary stats, and the brown are your "unmodified" stats, i.e. those that don't incur a bonus on the roll. I'll be waiting for that Hero Lab plugin. Lord knows it's needed!

Cheers,
SF

S Ferguson
November 6th, 2013, 15:06
so... to clarify one more time - i should ditch my current campaign based on 2.9.4 plus the DrV Beta Ruleset and move to FG3 Beta? Do I need to download a new ruleset?

All you have to do is open up FG, choose settings, check test and then update. It will automagically download the brand spanking new (and much loved) 3.0 edition. Keep a campaign backup and port your 2.9.4 game over. (sadly the Doc's and my work on the "old" 3.0 beta has happily gone the way of the dinosaur and it's not compatible).

Cheers (or sighs),
SF

JohnD
November 6th, 2013, 19:25
As Dr. V has already pointed out there are rules for tertiary stats, but they are not implemented in the system as it stands. The red iare your primary stats, the blue secondary stats, and the brown are your "unmodified" stats, i.e. those that don't incur a bonus on the roll. I'll be waiting for that Hero Lab plugin. Lord knows it's needed!

Cheers,
SF

Yes something for Hero Lab would be great.

dberkompas
November 6th, 2013, 19:59
Working on a Ruby converter. Right now it only does attributes, but doesn't do pri/sec, that'll come later this afternoon.

Ruby is the language I know best, so that's what I'm using (I learned python for the Call of Cthulhu project I abandoned)

I may create a webpage on my site that you can upload an xml created from my Hero Lab plug-in, and it will spit out the XML that can then be imported into FG.

So much to do, so little time. Isn't that the way it always is.

If anyone would like to see my code, either the HL plug-in, Ruby code, etc. Just ask, and I'll put it on my site to freely download.


BoomerET

dberkompas
November 6th, 2013, 20:50
Been having some fun...
If you've installed my Hero Lab plug-in, here's a converter that will create an XML file for FG.

Right now it only has attributes, I'm about to add name, player, pri/sec.



#!/usr/bin/env ruby

require 'rexml/document'

# Parameters needed on command line
# input XML file
# ouput XML file
# ie. convertCharacter myHero.xml myFGhero.xml
# Then import myFGhero.xml into the 'test' C&C ruleset

attrList = %w( charisma constitution dexterity intelligence strength wisdom )
inputFile = File.new( ARGV[0], "r" )
outputFile = File.new( ARGV[1], "w+" )
doc = REXML::Document.new inputFile
#doc.elements.each("document/public/character/attributes/attribute") { |element| puts element.attributes["name"] }

outputFile.puts "<?xml version=\"1.0\" encoding=\"iso-8859-1\"?>"
outputFile.puts "<root version=\"3.0\" release=\"12|CoreRPG:1\">"
outputFile.puts " <character>"
outputFile.puts " <abilities>"
attrList.each do |attribute|
attrString = ""
outputFile.puts " <#{attribute}>"
attrString = " <score type=\"number\">"
doc.elements.each("document/public/character/attributes/attribute") do |element|
if element.attributes["name"].casecmp(attribute) == 0
attrString += element.attributes["value"]
end
end
outputFile.puts "#{attrString}</score>"
outputFile.puts " </#{attribute}>\n"
end
outputFile.puts " </abilities>"
outputFile.puts " </character>"
outputFile.puts "</root>"

damned
November 6th, 2013, 21:43
It will automagically download the brand spanking new (and much loved) 3.0 edition. Keep a campaign backup and port your 2.9.4 game over. (sadly the Doc's and my work on the "old" 3.0 beta has happily gone the way of the dinosaur and it's not compatible).

Your work, both of you, was much appreciated. I bet its a load off your shoulders!
I will give it a whirl on Saturday.

S Ferguson
November 7th, 2013, 00:28
Your work, both of you, was much appreciated. I bet its a load off your shoulders!
I will give it a whirl on Saturday.

You'll love it. Trust me.

Cheers,
SF

damned
November 9th, 2013, 08:37
heeeeelp!
how do i use FG3 and C&C when Ive got the beta v3 C&C ruleset loaded?
im pretty sure I shouldnt be using DrVs version...

damned
November 9th, 2013, 14:32
ok - so i worked it out in time for my game... i removed DrVs v3beta release from my rulesets directory and then in update i logged in using my forum/store credentials and that seems to have done the trick.
i did encounter some things that i think may be bugs though...

1. one player who has the C&C ruleset could not get the PHB to load - i (CK) kept getting a script error every 1 second - and darn it I didnt record it - so I had to deny him the PHB to be able to play otherwise every one second the screen focus moved to the script errors window.
2. right at the end of the session i connected a second local machine instance to the game to view the maps from player side and it crashed all three of my players sessions.
3. levels are not auto calculated? bonus to hit? languages (racial)? abilities (class and racial)? armour class on worn armour? are these features that will or wont be in the new C&C ruleset as these were in teh beta ruleset.
4. in combat how do i have monster initiative auto re-roll but not characters?
5. in combat is it best to delete/remove dead enemies from the tracker? i used to change their initiative to 0 and they would stay at bottom of list out of way. now they re-roll their initiative at beginning of each round even if they had 0 initiative during prev round.
6. how do you prep an encounter in this new version?
7. oh yeah - another big one - i couldnt get the monsters in monsters and treasure to open. "Runtime Error: desktop: Unable to create window with invalid class (referenceindex_filtered_scrollable : [email protected] and Treasure)" other links from that resource worked.

keep up the great work guys!

JohnD
November 9th, 2013, 16:42
Well issue 1 is the exact same thing I was experiencing last night. I couldn't stop it.

dr_venture
November 9th, 2013, 17:05
Damned, you're... well, damned. The new FGIII ruleset is only backwards-compatible with campaigns created with the FGII 2.0... meaning the current release version of the C&C ruleset. The beta ruleset I was working on had changed too much from the previous release, and when Moon_wiz did his big upgrade, he had to choose which to support with his limited resources, and of course the logical choice was to support all the customers of the released ruleset.

The only folks badly affected are the folks using the previous beta... which is you, me Scott, and a handful of others... none of which have active campaigns. In fact, I think you and I are the only ones with a lot of game content based on the defunct beta. I know Moon feels bad about us getting a bit of a nut shot when we were part of the team helping with the beta, and obviously that wasn't his intent at all and we're much better off with his v.3 ruleset than mine (me being a cobble-together-type developer, and he being a mega-developer), but he's just been too swamped with RW stuff as well as the overall FGIII release.

I know I have my main Greyhawk campaign, as well as 7 other "module builder" campaigns that all need to be surgically removed from my dev and moved to the new C&C release. The good news for me is that I think that the only things that are really incompatible between versions are specifically things having to do with either characters or inventory items. So my main campaign is hosed, but the majority of my "module builder" campaigns should open with the new C&C without issue, as they are mostly just pictures and text, with a few links to either custom Personalities or ones out of the M&T volume... both of which I *think* the new FGIII C&C will deal with OK.

I hope I can figure out a way to either convert the campaigns... but we may be stuck hand-converting the campaigns. Life has got me beat down recently, but give me some time and maybe I can figure put together a routine that would parse through the characters and items and convert them to the correct format.

Other than your main campaign, do you have a lot of stuff that is going to be orphaned by the new version?

dr_venture
November 9th, 2013, 17:33
Oh, just saw your last message Damned - dunno if I was maybe answering the wrong question?

Here's a couple quick responses before I run out the door.

1) On the PHB problem, were you careful to remove not only the ruleset of my version, but also the modules? The PHB, M&T and Castellan's mods all need to be removed before upgrading to the FGIII version.
3) The class automation has been removed, yes - none of that stuff is automated in the FGIII release, as it had some problems that were not easily fixed.
4) There is a way of having monsters auto-roll their inits... it's either an Option or... I know you can roll all the NPC Inits from the radial menu that appears from the "Menu" icon in the CT.
5) Yeah, I miss that feature too... but for now, yeah, you gotta delete 'em, I think.
6) It should be like the previous version, though I admit I haven't even tried it. Can you elaborate?
7) See #1... I suspect that may be the problem.

S Ferguson
November 9th, 2013, 17:37
I've tried (with limited success) to reconstruct the campaigns from the beta to no avail the data nodes it uses are waaay out of whack with any of the "public" versions: characters and their inventories just don't come in at all. The rest of the campaign *should* (don't quote me on this) be able to be recovered That I've had success with) but V2.0 is the way the campaigns are imported now (and flawlessly I might add). As Dr. V stated, for the most part, with the beta 3.0 to FG 3.0, you're well... damned.

Cheers,
SF

S Ferguson
November 9th, 2013, 18:08
ok - so i worked it out in time for my game... i removed DrVs v3beta release from my rulesets directory and then in update i logged in using my forum/store credentials and that seems to have done the trick.
i did encounter some things that i think may be bugs though...

1. one player who has the C&C ruleset could not get the PHB to load - i (CK) kept getting a script error every 1 second - and darn it I didnt record it - so I had to deny him the PHB to be able to play otherwise every one second the screen focus moved to the script errors window.
2. right at the end of the session i connected a second local machine instance to the game to view the maps from player side and it crashed all three of my players sessions.
3. levels are not auto calculated? bonus to hit? languages (racial)? abilities (class and racial)? armour class on worn armour? are these features that will or wont be in the new C&C ruleset as these were in teh beta ruleset.
4. in combat how do i have monster initiative auto re-roll but not characters?
5. in combat is it best to delete/remove dead enemies from the tracker? i used to change their initiative to 0 and they would stay at bottom of list out of way. now they re-roll their initiative at beginning of each round even if they had 0 initiative during prev round.
6. how do you prep an encounter in this new version?
7. oh yeah - another big one - i couldnt get the monsters in monsters and treasure to open. "Runtime Error: desktop: Unable to create window with invalid class (referenceindex_filtered_scrollable : [email protected] and Treasure)" other links from that resource worked.

keep up the great work guys!

As to the rest. here are some shorter answers (before I run out the door after Dr. V.

1. I'll try to reproduce the error.
2. See 1.
3. Nope. Nothing is automated, but the drag'n'drop feature takes its place.
4. Switch the auto-roll option off in the options menu.
5. Unlike Dr. V I hated that feature. Just delete them unless they're bleeding out (they can still crawl).
6. Under the encounters tab. They can be made up of personalities (under that tab) or not.
7. See 1.

Cheers,
SF

damned
November 9th, 2013, 21:49
Well issue 1 is the exact same thing I was experiencing last night. I couldn't stop it.

Did you try this - kinda of a bummer that you have to deny players the PHB but its better than not being able to play -

Library -> Modules -> Players Handbook -> Block Player Load?

That did of course mean that the player couldnt load the PHB but did mean I could run the session :)

damned
November 9th, 2013, 21:51
Other than your main campaign, do you have a lot of stuff that is going to be orphaned by the new version?

I was loving your beta version (thanks SF and anyone else who was helping you too) but I fully understand the benefits of FG3 and running C&C as close to the Core as possible. Im all onboard with that - not to worry. I screen shot all the characters and told the players to start typing when they arrived :) They coped.

damned
November 9th, 2013, 21:58
As to the rest. here are some shorter answers (before I run out the door after Dr. V.

1. I'll try to reproduce the error.
2. See 1.
3. Nope. Nothing is automated, but the drag'n'drop feature takes its place.
4. Switch the auto-roll option off in the options menu.
5. Unlike Dr. V I hated that feature. Just delete them unless they're bleeding out (they can still crawl).
6. Under the encounters tab. They can be made up of personalities (under that tab) or not.
7. See 1.

Cheers,
SF

1. John D reports the same.
2. Blyssful has experienced the same in other FG3 rulesets.
3. NP. I did use the Drag and Drop. Do you think that we will get those features back and some point or does that "fork" C&C away from the Core? Just curious.
4. So its all or nothing? in the beta I could have NPCs re-roll and players not.
5. I liked that feature/option but I wont lose any sleep over it.
6. Ohoh! The Encounters word is a button not a title!
7. Yeah that was a big issue... tried opening from player side too (after enabling) but no go.

JohnD
November 10th, 2013, 00:01
Did you try this - kinda of a bummer that you have to deny players the PHB but its better than not being able to play -

Library -> Modules -> Players Handbook -> Block Player Load?

That did of course mean that the player couldnt load the PHB but did mean I could run the session :)
Yeah I did but it kept spamming the report.

dr_venture
November 10th, 2013, 21:00
BUG: If you share a text document (mother doc) with links to other documents (daughter docs), then the 'mother' and 'daughter' docs will all be shared (which is as expected, I think). The bug occurs if the daughter docs have links to 3rd tier 'granddaughter' docs which have not been shared - when a player/client clicks on a link to a 'granddaughter' document, a script error results:

Runtime Error: desktop: Unable to create window with data source (encounter : encounter.id-00013)

Expected result: I would assume that either the 'granddaughter' document would be shared on the fly, or that an error would be gracefully posted via chat or something. Even better would be to catch the problem on the GM's side when the 'mother' document is shared, by either warning the GM that the players won't be able to follow all of the links leading from the shared doc, or sharing all linked documents recursively so that no error can occur... which I suppose could lead to a *lot* of shared docs off of just one 'mother' doc. Hmmm...

S Ferguson
November 11th, 2013, 18:24
Geeze Louise, we have a genealogical bug! Lord only knows what this will do to the family tree. Nicely pruned?

Cheers,
SF

S Ferguson
November 11th, 2013, 19:37
3. NP. I did use the Drag and Drop. Do you think that we will get those features back and some point or does that "fork" C&C away from the Core? Just curious.
.

Probably not as it becomes difficult to code the character sheet. Had a long discussion with Moon about this and have to agree. The code becomes a virtual mess. It's the reason the Beta 3.0 couldn't cope with importing characters and their items. The code was, literally, unmaintainable without getting into logic traps and other such nasties....

Cheers,
SF

Moon Wizard
November 11th, 2013, 22:40
Here's my two cents to add to the mix:

1. If I can reproduce (or at least get the text of) this script error, I should be able to figure out what is happening. I'm not seeing that issue when I run two instances on the same machine connected to each other. Do you see this in a new campaign too?

2. I really want to catch this crash condition before I move out of beta, but I haven't ever seen it on my machine. Any more details on what you were doing at the time? Can you recreate?

3. In general, I steer rulesets away from "character generation" tasks. There are entire applications devoted to just this process (such as Hero Lab) that people pay money for, which shows just how much work this can be. These features add a heavy development, complexity and maintenance level to the ruleset. Plus, I have found that it makes the code more fragile (i.e. error-prone). I suspect that this may be looked at after v3.0 by some of the C&C folks, but I asked DrV and SFerguson to wait until after v3.0 release to begin tinkering.

4. If you click on the CT menu button, under the initiative sub-menu, there are options to reroll all initiatives, reroll PC initiatives, reroll NPC initiatives and clear all initiatives.

5. In every other ruleset, people just delete enemies which are dead? Any purpose in tracking dead enemies in the combat tracker?

7. Make sure that you remove all the C&C modules (and open a new campaign to verify they are all gone). Then, re-update using the updater. It's working fine on my end.

Regards,
JPG

S Ferguson
November 11th, 2013, 23:21
Has anyone actually used the Encounter XP Box on the party sheet? Even in edit mode I can't seem to drop any encounter, be it story, creature or whatnot, and nothing is happening. Ghould I be worried?

Cheers,
SF

Moon Wizard
November 12th, 2013, 00:11
I just dragged an encounter entry from the campaign encounters list to the encounters section on the party sheet and it created an entry. Encounters can only be added by drag and drop. Are you dragging the red box from the encounters campaign list or from the encounter details window?

For quests, they are created on the party sheet page using the "add" button visible after you enter "edit" mode; or via the right click radial menu.

Regards,
JPG

S Ferguson
November 12th, 2013, 00:42
I just dragged an encounter entry from the campaign encounters list to the encounters section on the party sheet and it created an entry. Encounters can only be added by drag and drop. Are you dragging the red box from the encounters campaign list or from the encounter details window?

For quests, they are created on the party sheet page using the "add" button visible after you enter "edit" mode; or via the right click radial menu.

Regards,
JPG

I figured out the quest part rather quickly. and finally figured out the encounters problem. IMHO the XP award shouldn't just be for defeated creatures in encounters, seeing that most of the modules don't implement encounters that way. It should also apply to personalities (the big bad boss creature) and "Story" Encounters (e.g. puzzle to be solved, gained insight, disarm a devious trap, etc.). These are types of things that non hack-n-Slash gamers like giving experience points for: good roleplaying. Any chance of working this in?

Regards,
SF

Moon Wizard
November 12th, 2013, 03:31
No plans right now, unless you want v3 to keep moving back for release.

For now, you can use an encounter record with no creatures, or a quest record, to track other XP awards.

Regards,
JPG

Andraax
November 12th, 2013, 03:32
You can create an encounter without any creatures, only an XP award. Give it any title you want (ie, "Good Roleplaying"). This can be added to the encounter section of the party sheet and distributed like encounters with creatures.

My only problem with XP awards is that I can't award XP to only one player...

damned
November 12th, 2013, 04:02
1. Here is log - every one second or thereabouts making play impossible.

Network Error: Unable to locate requested file '[email protected] Handbook'
Network Error: Unable to locate requested file '[email protected]'
Network Error: Unable to locate requested file '[email protected] Of Aikarn'
Network Error: Unable to locate requested file '[email protected]'
Network Error: Unable to locate requested file '[email protected] Handbook'
Network Error: Unable to locate requested file '[email protected] Handbook'
Network Error: Unable to locate requested file '[email protected] Handbook'
Network Error: Unable to locate requested file '[email protected] Handbook'
Network Error: Unable to locate requested file '[email protected] Handbook'
Network Error: Unable to locate requested file '[email protected] Handbook'
Network Error: Unable to locate requested file '[email protected] Handbook'
Network Error: Unable to locate requested file '[email protected] Handbook'
Network Error: Unable to locate requested file '[email protected] Handbook'
Network Error: Unable to locate requested file '[email protected] Handbook'
Network Error: Unable to locate requested file '[email protected] Handbook'
Network Error: Unable to locate requested file '[email protected] Handbook'
Network Error: Unable to locate requested file '[email protected] Handbook'
Network Error: Unable to locate requested file '[email protected] Handbook'
Network Error: Unable to locate requested file '[email protected] Handbook'
Network Error: Unable to locate requested file '[email protected] Handbook'
Network Error: Unable to locate requested file '[email protected] Handbook'

This was simulated just now by having an unregistered install connect to my ultimate license.

damned
November 12th, 2013, 04:42
2. Started an ultimate campaign. connected a demo license to it from a second computer and then connected a localhost session and it did not crash. i did not have characters selected or do any gaming. I will test it again at the end of my next proper session and report back.

damned
November 12th, 2013, 04:46
3. 4. 5. 6. thats all good - just clarifying.

7. Still get this error after deleting Castles&Crusades from \rulesets and downloading again.
Runtime Error: desktop: Unable to create window with invalid class (referenceindex_filtered_scrollable : [email protected] and Treasure)

Moon Wizard
November 12th, 2013, 05:25
The reason why I think it is a left-over module issue is that my version of the C&T module does not contain a reference to "referenceindex_filtered_scrollable" at all. It was only used for the other beta of CnC.

Try renaming the modules directory, and running the updater again. It should repopulate the modules directory with only the official ones.

Note: Two modules can have the same name, and one will overwrite the other; which I believe is what is occurring.

Cheers,
JPG

damned
November 12th, 2013, 06:03
So I used to have a folder Castles and Crusades in teh rulesets directory. I moved it and now i have a file Castles and Crusades.pak
I will delete that and retest.

Moon Wizard
November 12th, 2013, 06:22
That is the rulesets directory, and you only want the PAK file there not the folder.

The modules directory is the one where all the data modules are located, including the PHB.

JPG

damned
November 12th, 2013, 07:17
deleting the modules worked!
that "fixed" errors 1 and 7 which were not as it turns out your errors at all...

these probaby didnt update automatically because they were Dr_V's beta modules and not the official FG ones distributed through you...?

JohnD
November 12th, 2013, 10:25
1. Here is log - every one second or thereabouts making play impossible.

Network Error: Unable to locate requested file '[email protected] Handbook'
Network Error: Unable to locate requested file '[email protected]'
Network Error: Unable to locate requested file '[email protected] Of Aikarn'
Network Error: Unable to locate requested file '[email protected]'
Network Error: Unable to locate requested file '[email protected] Handbook'
Network Error: Unable to locate requested file '[email protected] Handbook'
Network Error: Unable to locate requested file '[email protected] Handbook'
Network Error: Unable to locate requested file '[email protected] Handbook'
Network Error: Unable to locate requested file '[email protected] Handbook'
Network Error: Unable to locate requested file '[email protected] Handbook'
Network Error: Unable to locate requested file '[email protected] Handbook'
Network Error: Unable to locate requested file '[email protected] Handbook'
Network Error: Unable to locate requested file '[email protected] Handbook'
Network Error: Unable to locate requested file '[email protected] Handbook'
Network Error: Unable to locate requested file '[email protected] Handbook'
Network Error: Unable to locate requested file '[email protected] Handbook'
Network Error: Unable to locate requested file '[email protected] Handbook'
Network Error: Unable to locate requested file '[email protected] Handbook'
Network Error: Unable to locate requested file '[email protected] Handbook'
Network Error: Unable to locate requested file '[email protected] Handbook'
Network Error: Unable to locate requested file '[email protected] Handbook'

This was simulated just now by having an unregistered install connect to my ultimate license.

Yeah that's it.

JohnD
November 12th, 2013, 10:28
Will remove what damned did and try to test. Damn I hate insomnia and sleeping at 11 AM, I'm sure my employers aren't fond of it either.

damned
November 12th, 2013, 12:28
remove any Castles and Crusades from \rulesets
remove any Castles and Crusades from \modules although you can leave Calendar and Castlellans_Guide_Arms_and_Armor as they are not part of the official ruleset/module.
re-run updater and you should (fingers crossed) be good

S Ferguson
November 12th, 2013, 16:54
You can create an encounter without any creatures, only an XP award. Give it any title you want (ie, "Good Roleplaying"). This can be added to the encounter section of the party sheet and distributed like encounters with creatures.

My only problem with XP awards is that I can't award XP to only one player...

Do tell. I like slipping a little bonus incentive every now and then too.

Cheers,
SF

dr_venture
November 15th, 2013, 02:40
Bug: The text description of the Knight's ability, "Birthright Mount" is all kinds of screwed up... prolly best to just take it out of the PHB from scratch.

Feature Request: None of the abilities listed on the character class details pages have any level info associated with them - this makes it so that you have to open each skill to see if it applies you your character yet. May I suggest that the abilities have the level at which the class receives the skill listed on the page itself so you know what to drag to your sheet without any hassle? So for instance, the Bard page currently lists the abilities as:

Decipher Script
Exalt
Legend Lore
Fascinate
Exhort Greatness

May I suggest they instead be listed as:

Decipher Script
Exalt
Legend Lore
Fascinate (4th level)
Exhort Greatness (9th level)

JohnD
November 15th, 2013, 02:50
Bug: The text description of the Knight's ability, "Birthright Mount" is all kinds of screwed up... prolly best to just take it out of the PHB from scratch.

Feature Request: None of the abilities listed on the character class details pages have any level info associated with them - this makes it so that you have to open each skill to see if it applies you your character yet. May I suggest that the abilities have the level at which the class receives the skill listed on the page itself so you know what to drag to your sheet without any hassle? So for instance, the Bard page currently lists the abilities as:

Decipher Script
Exalt
Legend Lore
Fascinate
Exhort Greatness

May I suggest they instead be listed as:

Decipher Script
Exalt
Legend Lore
Fascinate (4th level)
Exhort Greatness (9th level)

Great suggestion.

S Ferguson
November 15th, 2013, 02:51
What exactly is wrong with the birthright mounts? Level notes are being considered.

Cheers,
SF

dr_venture
November 15th, 2013, 03:00
What exactly is wrong with the birthright mounts?

The text partially repeats itself half way through and has both mounts jumbled into the main body of text at the bottom, with no formatting to make it remotely easy to read.

dr_venture
November 15th, 2013, 03:01
Level notes are being considered.

By whom, and what is the consideration?

damned
November 15th, 2013, 06:12
i think it is a good idea too :)
nice simple solution.

S Ferguson
November 15th, 2013, 16:16
They've been added but I'm waiting on some info (about the mount) before I push it out to the throbbing masses (like you). About the most I can do about the mount (for now) is put RIDING HORSE and LIGHT WAR HORSE (in caps) which doesn't necessarily make it any easier to read.

dr_venture
November 15th, 2013, 23:12
Can't you at least put carriage returns? The caps would be nice, or a link to personality/creature files.

*throbs quietly*

S Ferguson
November 15th, 2013, 23:57
Can't you at least put carriage returns? The caps would be nice, or a link to personality/creature files.

*throbs quietly*

I'll do my best.

Cheers,
SF

damned
November 16th, 2013, 02:24
thanks Scotty!