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hawkwind
August 9th, 2013, 09:53
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2q15q?Season-5-PFS-rules-and-Online-Play


lets hope that pdf version which can be edited turns up real soon, more book keeping for players and GM's so just what i wanted from the PFS!

Trenloe
August 9th, 2013, 15:57
To be honest, with what we have been advocating on how we run PFS on FG (i.e. GMs fully completing chronicle sheets, including purchases) this is not really a big increase in what we are doing now.

The main "hassle" is that this is an additional sheet to the chronicle sheet - and the "problem" of having to add to an ongoing inventory list that may be in a number of weird formats depending on how the player is tracking (paper, PDF, etc.).

What this does highlight, for people who may have missed it, is that certain purchases are no recorded on the chronicle sheet, they are on the inventory sheet - which has to be used from August 15th!

http://paizo.com/pathfinderSociety/faq#v5748eaic9qyq

It looks like this whole process is still under discussion and details may change before August 15th...

hawkwind
August 9th, 2013, 17:43
I'm looking forward to a system of double entry book keeping for season six. It looks like this something players will have to fill out and GM's sign off or have I misunderstood the process?

Trenloe
August 9th, 2013, 18:59
It looks like this something players will have to fill out and GM's sign off or have I misunderstood the process?
That's the way it is currently worded in the Season 5 guide. Essentially what should be done now (Season 4) with purchases on the chronicle sheet - which we have been advocating doing for FG PFS games, but instead of recording the larger purchases on the chronicle sheet they are recorded on the inventory sheet with each item signed off by the GM.

This should be an ongoing record of purchases above 25 GP with new purchases added to the same sheet. This is the main difficulty I see for us with online play. If a player also plays face-to-face and has a hand filled out inventory sheet how do we process this here? We'll have to get the player to scan/photo their inventory sheet and send it to us - then mess around with converting it, adding in data, signing it, etc..

I'll have a chat with the online VC to see how he sees this happening and what processes we can put in place to make this as painless as possible for all involved.

lachancery
August 9th, 2013, 21:22
<groan> Not pleased about this additional burden... This is the sort of "innovation" that makes PFS GMs question if they want to keep doing it.

Before enforcing this, they should add the inventory sheet as web pages to the online reporting tool, and reviewable by anyone for audits. Since each session has to be reported on paizo's site, a character's official inventory would not be tied to a form which must flow between physical and virtual tables, but to the online record.

Trenloe
August 9th, 2013, 21:30
Before enforcing this, they should add the inventory sheet as web pages to the online reporting tool, and reviewable by anyone for audits.
This would be nice, but quite frankly a HUGE overhead for people who play face-to-face games in strictly time constrained environments - conventions, game stores, etc. Remember, this is the vast majority of PFS gaming.


Since each session has to be reported on paizo's site, a character's official inventory would not be tied to a form which must flow between physical and virtual tables, but to the online record.
Reporting on Paizo.com is not mandatory. Having a clear, fully completed record for each of your characters is the only mandatory requirement. Introduction of the inventory form is supposed to make it easier for GMs to do a fast audit of a PC's purchases.

We will have to wait and see what the solution is to the recording of this information for online games. In theory it is the player's responsibility to keep this in check - but as we all know, there are a lot of players who don't keep their chronicle sheets in order so it is more than likely that doing this correctly will still fall on the GM's (or campaign coordinators) shoulders...

Let's see what transpires...

hawkwind
August 9th, 2013, 21:54
What was the thinking behind this change assuming all the VL's & VL's got to discuss it first? The old system sort of worked although the standard of chronicle sheets I saw from non-FG sources has been dire

Trenloe
August 9th, 2013, 22:03
What was the thinking behind this change assuming all the VL's & VL's got to discuss it first? The old system sort of worked although the standard of chronicle sheets I saw from non-FG sources has been dire
It was purely and simply to put all major purchases together on a single sheet (or, multiple sheets of the same format once a sheet is full) to allow a GM to quickly do an audit of character purchases without having to go through a big set of chronicle sheets - which, as you say, the standard can be quite dire. Which seems to suggest that the "old" system was not working properly for a lot of people.

Chronicle sheets will still be reviewed as part of an audit, but now the main areas to check are XP, PP and Fame on the chronicle sheets with purchases on the inventory sheet/s.

It is really not changing what "should" have been done before season 5 - just taking out onto a separate sheet one of the main causes of concern highlighted in audits to date.

Nightfiend
August 15th, 2013, 02:35
Question on season 5.

After looking over the new inventory sheet, I am a little confused about how this will play-out online. I am seeing a lot of people unhappy with the idea of another up keep item for the GM's, so I am wondering if this is something that is going to stick around. That being said, do we copy items bought onto the chronicle sheet from the inventory sheet? Or is the inventory sheet taking the place of the listed bought and sold items on the chronicle sheet? Is the sheet a running track of all items ever bought. (I.E. the same sheet gets handed over to the GM each time the character is played), or is it a new sheet, like a chronicle, that gets filled out each time the character is used? If it is a tracking sheet that is reused, to keep a history, how do we pass that back and forth online? Last question, is there a PDF of this sheet that can be altered yet?

Trenloe
August 15th, 2013, 06:06
Question on season 5.

After looking over the new inventory sheet, I am a little confused about how this will play-out online. I am seeing a lot of people unhappy with the idea of another up keep item for the GM's, so I am wondering if this is something that is going to stick around. That being said, do we copy items bought onto the chronicle sheet from the inventory sheet? Or is the inventory sheet taking the place of the listed bought and sold items on the chronicle sheet? Is the sheet a running track of all items ever bought. (I.E. the same sheet gets handed over to the GM each time the character is played), or is it a new sheet, like a chronicle, that gets filled out each time the character is used? If it is a tracking sheet that is reused, to keep a history, how do we pass that back and forth online? Last question, is there a PDF of this sheet that can be altered yet?
All good questions. A lot of these as they relate directly to online play are still to be resolved.

Some of this is covered in the inventory sheet thread: http://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?19322-Inventory-sheet-for-season-5

To quickly answer some of your more generic questions - the sheet is a running list of all items over 25 GP that have been purchased by the PC. Some minor purchases can be covered in the chronicle sheet - if you have a look at the picture of the new chronicle sheet in the PFS season 5 guide there is no specific "Sell" and "Buy" section - just a generic notes section at the bottom. So - fill in purchases less than 25 GP in the notes section or in the inventory sheet it's up to you. But, *any* single item purchases above 25 GP *have* to be entered in the running inventory sheet.

Standby for further updates. I will be meeting with the PFS online VC at GenCon and this will be one of the items on the agenda.

Please post any follow up questions in the inventory sheet thread referenced above - thanks.

Nightfiend
August 15th, 2013, 06:29
After doing a little more reading I believe all items will have to be added to the chronicle sheet. The inventory sheet looks like a quick reference for GMs. Both sheets should be updated with anything over 25 gp. especially seeing we are not sure if they are going to keep this going or not. If they dung this for any reason at least the original chronicle will be correct and the quick reference sheet can be disposed of.

I also see that there is an official fill-able PDF available now. Ill post the link for anyone who is interested.

http://paizo.com/products/btpy84k4/

4658

Anymore input you get will be welcomed. Also maybe a PDF chronicle / inventory sheet, properly filled
out could be posted here to clear up where things go. I noted that there is no clear signature spots on the inventory sheet, and have read mixed information on the fact that it even needs to be signed at all. I see a chronicle number labeled at the top of the sheet but I think there should be a spot next to each item so the GM knows what chronicle the item came from.

Malkavian_Andi
August 15th, 2013, 10:04
I see a chronicle number labeled at the top of the sheet but I think there should be a spot next to each item so the GM knows what chronicle the item came from.There are actually 3 spots for exactly that. When you buy an item, you put that in the notes section of your chronicle sheet, then list the item on your inventory sheet, putting the chronicle # in the first box next to your item (the chronicle # which lists the purchase). If you later sell the item, you put the chronicle # that lists the selling in the middle box next to the item. If you use an expendable item (like a potion or scroll), you put the chronicle # that lists that action in the right box next to the item name.

In short, the inventory tracking sheet acts as a table of contents for the purchases on your chronicle sheets.
I don't think GMs will have to sign it. After all, they already signed the chronicle sheets that list the purchases the tracking sheet refers to.

Trenloe
August 15th, 2013, 15:03
In short, the inventory tracking sheet acts as a table of contents for the purchases on your chronicle sheets.
This is a very good description and the best way of looking at it.


I don't think GMs will have to sign it. After all, they already signed the chronicle sheets that list the purchases the tracking sheet refers to.
I think you're right - the most recent update to the PFS guide and the FAQ no longer mention GM signing/adding initial to the inventory sheet: http://paizo.com/pathfinderSociety/faq#v5748eaic9qyq

Nickademus
August 15th, 2013, 19:39
So, today is 'the day'. Any word on an electronic add-on to the inventory tracker from Paizo or PFS? Or must we just rig up something for ourselves?

hawkwind
August 15th, 2013, 22:44
DIY for now

Blackfoot
August 15th, 2013, 22:53
Someone had built a googledocs one on the paizo site.. it seemed relatively easy to use. I don't know what the official form looks like so I'm not sure how legal it is or not.

Trenloe
August 15th, 2013, 23:00
Someone had built a googledocs one on the paizo site.. it seemed relatively easy to use. I don't know what the official form looks like so I'm not sure how legal it is or not.
From the PFS FAQ referenced in a post above :

The Inventory Tracking Sheet located in the back of the*Guide to Pathfinder Society Organized Play*is an example of the type of sheet that a player may utilize. If they have a favorite, custom Inventory Tracking sheet modeled after the one found in the Guide, they are free to use it.

Quite frankly I think this is opening a can of worms allowing people to use anything they want. I'd recommend that until we hear otherwise use the fillable PDF referenced by Nightfiend in post #11 above.

Nightfiend
August 16th, 2013, 03:59
Well looks like the official PDF will let you add content, but not save the content as a PDF. It only allows you to print it with the added content or save as a blank copy of the PDF. (Shakes his head) So back to printing and scanning till we have a savable PDF that can be posted.

BTW, Off subject, can someone tell me how to delete the uploaded old files on this forum?

Trenloe
August 16th, 2013, 04:07
BTW, Off subject, can someone tell me how to delete the uploaded old files on this forum?
Click "Edit Post" and remove the XXXX text.

Trenloe
August 16th, 2013, 04:13
Well looks like the official PDF will let you add content, but not save the content as a PDF. It only allows you to print it with the added content or save as a blank copy of the PDF. (Shakes his head) So back to printing and scanning till we have a savable PDF that can be posted.
Adobe reader fillable and saveable PDF for the inventory sheet uploaded to post #2 of the Files Thread: https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?16899-Files-GM-tools-etc

Nightfiend
August 16th, 2013, 04:13
I am assuming that everyone knows about this free and easy to use pdf editor, but just encase, here is a link to an editor that I have used a lot, and have been happy with.

http://www.pdfescape.com/account/?expired

Also, about deleting the uploaded content. I was referring to items uploaded on the manage attachment popup. I don't see a delete option to remove them when you are finished. So as I progress with my character I will have one million copies of it in the manager.

Nickademus
August 16th, 2013, 12:20
BTW, Off subject, can someone tell me how to delete the uploaded old files on this forum?

Also, about deleting the uploaded content. I was referring to items uploaded on the manage attachment popup. I don't see a delete option to remove them when you are finished. So as I progress with my character I will have one million copies of it in the manager.

I have been wondering this also. The attachment manager fills up quite quickly.

Blackfoot
August 16th, 2013, 20:14
I have been wondering this also. The attachment manager fills up quite quickly.
I believe you are limited to 5 attachments per post. Otherwise.. I haven't had any problem with needing to remove items from it... are you sure you aren't confusing the number of items per post with the number of items in the manager?

Nightfiend
August 16th, 2013, 23:08
No I'm referring specifically to the manager. For example I wanted to join your game, so using the manager I up loaded a file for Gareth, named Gareth. After the game I updated the Gareth file on my computer and up loaded it again, to join another game. Rinse and repeat for a few more games, and I now have four files on the upload manager named Gareth. I am assuming you need to be able to delete these or there is going to be a massive archive of files. Passing forms back and forth using this manager is going to be a PITA if you can't eliminate the extra, not needed files. I'm sure there has to be away to delete them, I just haven't figured it out yet. Maybe Trenloe will be able to advise on this.

Nickademus
August 17th, 2013, 00:32
I'm not talking about a limit (and I don't think Nightfiend is either). I have not seen a limit, which also confuses me. I'm just trying to be nice and not take up any more server space that I need. Likewise, there has to be a way to remove files from the server, and I would hope it isn't an admin-only feature.

Blackfoot
August 17th, 2013, 01:04
No I'm referring specifically to the manager. For example I wanted to join your game, so using the manager I up loaded a file for Gareth, named Gareth. After the game I updated the Gareth file on my computer and up loaded it again, to join another game. Rinse and repeat for a few more games, and I now have four files on the upload manager named Gareth. I am assuming you need to be able to delete these or there is going to be a massive archive of files. Passing forms back and forth using this manager is going to be a PITA if you can't eliminate the extra, not needed files. I'm sure there has to be away to delete them, I just haven't figured it out yet. Maybe Trenloe will be able to advise on this.
We digress sharply from the intent of this thread... let's move this discussion to a new thread.