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View Full Version : Thinking of starting a C&C campaign... questions!



JohnD
August 9th, 2013, 05:36
I am accustomed to DMing in PF, 3.5e and Rolemaster. I bought the 4th edition of the C&C rules a while ago; have not really used so far.

What are some of the things I will have to do differently in the C&C rules from what I will be accustomed to from the other rulesets in terms of functionality?

Do I need anything beyond the 4th edition rules that are available here on the FG store?

S Ferguson
August 9th, 2013, 18:10
Absolutely nothing out of the ordinary. The key thing to look at are the Siege rolls (rolls against the base attributes). These take the place of most of the non class and race specific skills. The other nice thing is that you're only rolling against a base difficulty of 10 for "Prime" skills, one determined by class and up to to more depending on race; otherwise you're rolling against a "Secondary" skill which is more difficult (base difficulty 18). The only other difference is the encumbrance system which is based off of Encumbrance Values (or EV's as they're referred to in the game. It's quite the elegant system based off of the 3.0 rules of D&D. You shouldn't need anything else from the store (although Castellan's Guide to Arms and Armor of the Middle Ages helps if you don't have access to those rules - but AD&D weapons are comparable); if you have any 1e D&D material (especially the monster manuals) they can come in handy, as material from that is easily blended into the system. It might seem a bit Rules-lite in comparison to the systems you're used to dealing with, but the simplicity reaps rewards as it doesn't bog down gameplay, often requiring a single roll where more would be required in other systems. So in toto that's the differences in the systems, and no you don't really need anything other than the core rules to get you going. Hope this helps. Feel free to ask more questions if you need to.

JohnD
August 9th, 2013, 18:42
Thanks for that!

S Ferguson
August 9th, 2013, 19:03
No problems.

Trenloe
August 9th, 2013, 21:20
The C&C ruleset is a bit older than the recent 3.5e and 4e rulesets. So recent functionality is not present.

I don't have access to it at the moment so I can't 100% confirm these:

Targetting - click to target and double-click to attack damage are not implemented. You need to drag/drop rolls to the token or CT.
Players do not get access to the story and images lists - once they close the specific window shared by the GM it has to be re-shared for the players to get access.
Effects - these are basically place holders to show when something expires. There are no modifiers or built-in conditions linked to C&C effects.
Grid alignment tools - you can't bump/resize the grid pixel by pixel. Get the grid right first time or do it again!
No import/export of PCs.
Players need to have bought the C&C ruleset to be able to use the library modules - they are installed as "client" not "common" (shared). So, even though the GM control if the players can access the modules, the players have to have bought the ruleset and have it installed - the modules will not be downloaded from the GM! But, the players don't need to buy the ruleset to play - just like all other FG rulesets this will be downloaded when they connect to the GM.

I think the above are the main differences. It's been a while since I played so if my recollection of the above is not correct please don't shoot me down in flames! :o

Dr Venture is working on Sorcerer's updated ruleset and is making some progress in developing a more up-to-date ruleset. I don't know where he is in doing this, I know it is a long process...

Trenloe
August 9th, 2013, 21:21
Do I need anything beyond the 4th edition rules that are available here on the FG store?
Not really - there is a lot of cool stuff for C&C in the store, but the ruleset stands on its own fine.

S Ferguson
August 9th, 2013, 22:08
The C&C ruleset is a bit older than the recent 3.5e and 4e rulesets. So recent functionality is not present.

I don't have access to it at the moment so I can't 100% confirm these:

Targetting - click to target and double-click to attack damage are not implemented. You need to drag/drop rolls to the token or CT.
Players do not get access to the story and images lists - once they close the specific window shared by the GM it has to be re-shared for the players to get access.
Effects - these are basically place holders to show when something expires. There are no modifiers or built-in conditions linked to C&C effects.
Grid alignment tools - you can't bump/resize the grid pixel by pixel. Get the grid right first time or do it again!
No import/export of PCs.
Players need to have bought the C&C ruleset to be able to use the library modules - they are installed as "client" not "common" (shared). So, even though the GM control if the players can access the modules, the players have to have bought the ruleset and have it installed - the modules will not be downloaded from the GM! But, the players don't need to buy the ruleset to play - just like all other FG rulesets this will be downloaded when they connect to the GM.

I think the above are the main differences. It's been a while since I played so if my recollection of the above is not correct please don't shoot me down in flames! :o

Dr Venture is working on Sorcerer's updated ruleset and is making some progress in developing a more up-to-date ruleset. I don't know where he is in doing this, I know it is a long process...

Shouldn't be too long of a wait now. A lot progress is being made. And the player's who join get reference to the PHB if it's force-downloaded (that option is included in the ruleset). but mostly the technical side you've got right. Pretty good I'd say from memory.:)

S Ferguson
August 13th, 2013, 03:53
Oh, and in the game there are no opposed rolls. So if you cast a spell, it's cast, and you don't roll for success; the target rolls against the Challenge Level (CL) which is usually the base difficulty usually 10 for spell slingers, add their level to the skill and any other modifiers and either takes no effect, half damage or full damage. (using spells as a simple example). Basically the no opposed rolls speeds things up and give the characters a bit of an edge in the game. Otherwise initiative is rolled, combat basically follows the 3.0 system, and it's a heck of a lot of fun. A definite two thumbs up in systems.

JohnD
August 13th, 2013, 04:05
Shouldn't be too long of a wait now. A lot progress is being made. And the player's who join get reference to the PHB if it's force-downloaded (that option is included in the ruleset). but mostly the technical side you've got right. Pretty good I'd say from memory.:)

I wouldn't mind looking at the new version while figuring the rules out... sounds like it wouldn't take long regardless.

I generally love the complexity of Rolemaster, but a simple, straight forward system has a lot going for itself in this day and age of hectic schedules and over burdensome work responsibilities.

Will have to PM Dr. Venture.

damned
August 13th, 2013, 09:41
Where does this "10" keep coming from?
Primes are 12 and others 18....

S Ferguson
August 14th, 2013, 01:49
Sorry. The joys of typing after too many a late night. 10 seems to stick in the brain better and (with a +/-2 margin of error - you should see it when the CB is 8!). Besides in my F2F and VTT games I like the 55% probability margin rather than the 45% you've got in the original rules - it speeds up gameplay and doesn't unbalance it too much. THE RULES ARE YOUR SERVANT - NOT YOUR MASTER or so the saying goes in the PHB. Call it an arbitrary GM fiat. But I do stand corrected. Officially the primes are 12 and non-primes 18. Oops.

JohnD
August 14th, 2013, 16:44
What are commonly used methods for stat generation (finding the base less than pleasing).

I thought of basing it on the prime stats.

If you have two prime stats you roll 4d6 twice and 3d6 five times, dropping the lowest total, arranged as desired.

If you have three prime stats (i.e. Human) roll 4d6 three times and 3d6 four times, dropping the lowest total, arranged as desired.

Re-roll all your stats if the cumulative modifiers are less than +4.

I've created a few test PCs with the above approach and find that they approximate my memories from AD&D days of solid yet non-overpowering PCs, who could be good at what their core function(s) are, with perhaps a little something else beyond. My main goal being to achieve a balance where each PC can manage to hold his/her own, yet still needs to rely on the rest of the party to survive.

I've also thought about adopting the AD&D starting age tables and applying stat modifiers from the DMG (i.e. +1 CON & -1 WIS for Young Adult then +1 STR and +1 WIS for Adult IIRC).

S Ferguson
August 14th, 2013, 17:04
While the PHB only uses the 3d6 arrange in order, their are a few alternate methods of rolling stats:
- 4d6 knocking off the lowest die roll
- for very powerful characters there's a 5d6 discard the lower two.
- rolling 3d6 and NOT arranging them to your liking
- a 66 point spread in which to distribute among the six abilities
- using any of the above methods and reduce any one attribute by two points or two attributes by one and increase another attribute by one

These are just the alternate "canonical version" rules It depends on the power level you want your characters to start off with. Any of the AD&D 1e methods would work equally as well as any other method in which to improve your game. Hope this helps. Since the primes are determined by class and racial choice, it generally isn't good to mix methods, after all, the character class determines the first prime skill and then usually characters will minimax it so the other primes are strong and complementary.

Cheers,
SF

dr_venture
August 14th, 2013, 17:15
Since most game mechanics (other than combat) are based on the Siege roll, the bonus from a high stat and the bonus from a stat being a Prime are essentially the same things: a bonus to your die roll when making a Siege check. Whether you look at the target roll for a Prime stat as being 12, or you look at all target rolls being 18 (non-Prime) with the Primes getting a +6 bonus, the effect is the same: Siege checks for prime stats are 6 points 'easier' than for non-prime stats. So what I'm getting at is that when you allow a 4d6 roll for Primary stats in addition to their built-in bonus just for being Primes in the first place, you're really super-charging those character's ability to make successful Siege checks for their Primary stats... they're going to be especially good at making those rolls, which works just fine if that's what you prefer for your game.

FWIW, I just go with straight 4d6, toss the lowest, arrange as you see fit... but I'm a very laid back GM that way. I even let players shift a few points around to weight their character to their liking. I still have no trouble imperiling my characters, though, but at least they're characters that the players really care about :)

Basically, you can use the regular old AD&D stat generation tricks that you used in those games, and it all works out just fine, IMO.

I'd suggest snagging a copy of the Castle Keeper's Guide if you can swing it (I think it's 20% off right now) as it provides a lot of material like alternative game mechanics, like ways to generate stats, use the Siege mechanic, calculate stats bonuses, etc. There are lots of good options along these lines if you think you could use them.

S Ferguson
August 14th, 2013, 17:31
Although all the methods in the CKG were delineated in my previous post. The CKG is a must if you really want to get to the "guts" of the system, but it certainly isn't necessary. Most of it is material (such as Dungeon and Wilderness encounter structure, game balancing, character expansion, gear weathering, etc.) that you probably have got a good handle on already. It is as Dr. V said off 20% until the 18th (in the usual Gen-Con fashion sale). And if you feel the need to dive into the system give it a go. I've read it twice, and now refer to it only when I need to (for calculating probabilities or to find out why a rule was made the way it was). It's nice, but not essential.

If you'd like further options there's the free Crusader's Companion full of house rules available at http://www.trolllord.com/downloads/pdfs/crusaderscompanion.pdf It should give you a taste for what the system can do.

JohnD
August 14th, 2013, 20:16
Thanks for that link Scott... it is a great read.

S Ferguson
August 14th, 2013, 20:27
No problem.

Cheers,
SF

damned
August 14th, 2013, 23:22
Sorry. The joys of typing after too many a late night. 10 seems to stick in the brain better and (with a +/-2 margin of error - you should see it when the CB is 8!). Besides in my F2F and VTT games I like the 55% probability margin rather than the 45% you've got in the original rules - it speeds up gameplay and doesn't unbalance it too much. THE RULES ARE YOUR SERVANT - NOT YOUR MASTER or so the saying goes in the PHB. Call it an arbitrary GM fiat. But I do stand corrected. Officially the primes are 12 and non-primes 18. Oops.

you can of course play with 10 and 17 for example as you suggest - i was just checking you hadnt changed the target numbers in the ruleset!
there are lots of ways to tinker with it.
i think there is/was another method where you had primes, secondary and normal(?) attributes and you might roll against 12, 15 and 18 :)

anyways - while you guys are busy improving the ruleset you can say/do anything and its ok with me :)

damned
August 14th, 2013, 23:32
mr ferguson - im not really nitpicking honest! you can get 30% off for GenCon :) all except the last 1 or 2 product releases... :)

johnd - i allow the players to choose either of these:
roll 4d6 x 6 dropping lowest die and allocate to the attributes as they like
or
assign 16, 14, 13, 12, 10, 9 as they like

the former gives them the chance to get higher scores whilst the latter guarantees them 3 attributes with positive bonuses.

dr_venture
August 14th, 2013, 23:39
i was just checking you hadnt changed the target numbers in the ruleset!

Actually, the ruleset doesn't provide automated pass/fail for Siege checks, it just adds up the numbers for the GM... thus the pass/fail numbers are not declared anywhere. I think this is best, as each GM can set their own pass/fail numbers, and can apply any secret modifiers after the fact on the spot. And determining & declaring pass/fail is pretty simple.

S Ferguson
August 14th, 2013, 23:47
Heavens no. We wouldn't impose anything on the ruleset. That has to be canon.:D

Cheers,
SF

dr_venture
August 15th, 2013, 06:52
Well, you got your wish, John: the new version has leapfrogged from our hands and straight into FG 3.0 - I haven't even looked at it yet myself. Check out Moon's thread if you're interested.

S Ferguson
August 15th, 2013, 09:40
Bear in mind it's only an Alpha Release at the time.

Cheers,
SF

damned
August 15th, 2013, 10:14
but Im currently using a Beta release!

S Ferguson
August 15th, 2013, 10:19
Well it's still a "beta release" in terms of it's functionality. You'll find the new additions to be helpful.

Cheers,
SF