NPC/Effect/Spell Auto Phrases ver 2.9.4

[Nickademus]

Every time I search through this forum for info all I find is outdated tutorials and broken links. So I'm just going to ask and apologize if it's already right in front of me.

Fantasy Grounds seems to automatically search for key phrases in the NPC descriptions, spell descriptions, and effects as well as other object data. These phrases either cause a mechanic to be applied to a target, create an additional effect entry, or highlight a section of text that can be double-clicked to perform an action. As far as I can tell, these aren't commands that are entered, just simple text that FG recognizes.

Is there a list of the proper phrases or key words that FG uses to determine if something is more than just text? I imagine this is based on ruleset (I am looking for Pathfinder data) and version (I have 2.9.4).

[Moon Wizard]

There is a built-in parsing algorithm in the 4E ruleset that was adapted to the 3.5E ruleset. They both only work on power/spell descriptions. In general, the algorithms attempt to look for phrases within the power/spell text that are used by the game developer to indicate common rolls or conditions.

Unfortunately, the algorithms are fairly complex to understand, due to the large number of ways that the game designers stated rolls. Also, they have been patched over time to add support for new data, so I don't have a complete list of rolls/conditions parsed.

In general, I tell people to simply enter the spell exactly as it appears in the rulebooks, as that is the source material I used to build and test the parsing algorithms.

Here is an example to help understand how it gets complex quickly, especially in 3.5E/PFRPG where there is less standardization in describing rolls/conditions in the spell description text.



deal/deals/take/takes/dealt/dealing/taking/causes [hit] point/points of [acid/cold/electricity/fire/force/sonic/positive/negative] damage [per [two] caster level/levels [of the caster] (maximum #/to a maximum of #)]


Regards,
JPG

[Trenloe]

There's also a bunch of "stuff" (that's a technical term :p ) done when an NPC is added to the combat tracker.

If you don't mind checking out some LUA code, have a look at the \ct\scripts\manager_ct.lua script - the addNPC function in particular - the section from "-- Decode monster type qualities" is where a lot of the effects are generated.

[Trenloe]

Also, a lot of base data used (like damage types, energy types, immune types, conditions, bonus types, etc.) is stored in \scripts\data_common.lua

[Nickademus]

Thank you for the info. Definitely steps in the direction I'm wanting.

I assumed the complexity, but I was hoping for a compiled list that was edited through the update. A pain to make but some programmers/companies require such things. It was worth a try. And I understand about Pathfinder being a ***** in the spell descriptions. I've been working on a project to create spell cards for my live game and it seems there were five or more individuals creating the spell entries, each with their own format for stats and wording of the descriptions. Bah.

I might dig into the lua scripts if I can't intuitively stumble my way through things on the surface. I did find an old post pointing to the User Manual for the effect parsing. I had completely forgotten it existed (probably due to the only two times I attempted to use it I found outdated info that didn't address the issues). The Manual is helping me to create user-defined effects, but the built-in effects/conditions in the 3.5e Manual list the 4e stats. Is there a list of the actual affects of the 3.5e effects/conditions?

[Trenloe]

The Manual is helping me to create user-defined effects, but the built-in effects/conditions in the 3.5e Manual list the 4e stats. Is there a list of the actual affects of the 3.5e effects/conditions?
https://www.fantasygrounds.com/userguide35E/ref_effects_35E.xcp

Have a look at the "Label: Conditions" and "Label:Modifiers" sections (links at the bottom of the left sidebar). These are 3.5e/PF specific.

[Nickademus]

That is what I'm using. Take a look for yourself. Modifiers lists the syntax for effects (which has been REALLY helpful). Conditions lists 4e effects for the conditions. I'm wanting to know what the 3.5e ruleset built-in conditions do because I'm not sure things are being applied right.

In a test adventure, had a monster with the grappled condition (only effect on it). One player attacked it against an AC with [Def Effect -3]. The other attacked it against an AC with [Def Effect -2]. Would be really nice if there were a place in the game, GM-side or player-side, where the affects of effects were displayed for verification.

Edit: Would also be nice to see the full Descriptor Legend for the Effect Modifiers. [save type] and [damage type] are not listed and [bonus type] is missing several types which I think, but am not sure, FG recognizes (such as competence, circumstance, dodge, insight, and such).

[Callum]

Yes, I asked for the lists in the 3.5E user guide to be corrected a while back. Trenloe dug into the code and gave me several lists in response to various questions of mine; for example, here: https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?16187-Numbers-in-the-IMMUNE-effect&p=121293&viewfull=1#post121293

[Trenloe]

That is what I'm using. Take a look for yourself. Modifiers lists the syntax for effects (which has been REALLY helpful). Conditions lists 4e effects for the conditions. I'm wanting to know what the 3.5e ruleset built-in conditions do because I'm not sure things are being applied right.
I have had a look for myself - hence why I referred you to this specific page. This is what I see for conditions in the 3.5e user guide. These look pretty 3.5e to me - and are quite different from the same page in the 4e user guide:
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/39085830/Screenshots/3.5e%20conditions.jpg

[Nickademus]

I'm see 'GRANTCA' stands for Grant Combat Advantage, which isn't a Pathfinder term and, to my knowledge, was never part of 3.5e. Squeezing in Pathfinder is a -4 to attacks and -4 to AC (don't think 3.5 has squeezing), but here it is listed as just a -5 attack. Cowering should cause a lose of Dex bonus (or GRANTCA if I understand how flat-footed works). Helpless and unconscious are missing the adjustment to Dex to make it a -5 penalty (or can FG not set values with effects, only modify them?). Pathfinder only note: Incorporeal is half damage instead of a miss chance. Might be others; I just grabbed some to show the differences.

Normally I would just chalk these off to conversions from 3.5e to Pathfinder or copy/paste errors from a 4e set of code. But these affects are automated and not shown in the program. I can't turn them off and still use the built-in conditions, causing me to have to avoid them and make my own set of conditions, blocking use of the default module.

I'm not trying to make this problem bigger than it is. I'm just seeing some weird behavior and want to know what the actual numbers are that the Pathfinder version of the 3.5e 2.9.4 ruleset is using. I have no clue where the above set of numbers came from, but they could be the cause of the issue (or just typos on the website).

Edit: Upon looking, I'm seeing a major difference between the Pathfinder and 3.5e versions of grappling. In Pathfinder, you don't lose your Dex bonus. Instead, you take a -4 Dex penalty, -2 to attack rolls and combat maneuvers, and lose the ability to perform Stealth or opportunity attacks. But even with the 3.5e version of grappling, how can a creature with a Dex of 12 take a -3 AC penalty for grappling against one player and a -2 AC penalty against the other. Should be a -1 penalty for the Dex lose.

[Trenloe]

GRANTCA may be a 4e term, but if you look at the table in the 3.5e ruleset (the one I took a screenshot above) this explains how this is used in 3.5e ruleset under the second section "Combat Advantage".

Now, if some of the 3.5e condition entries in this table are wrong, then that is a completely different matter to them being "4e effects and conditions". Thanks for highlighting that point! :)

I've tested your example of grappling and it is working OK for me, I don't see different defensive effects for different players when their target has the "Grappled" condition. Could you provide more details? Perhaps a screenshot? Also, please remember to mention which "System" option you have selected - 3.5e or PFRPG. Thanks.

[Nickademus]

I'm sorry. I saw the GRANTCA when I went to the page and assumed it was 4e content.

Didn't grab a screenshot because I was busy testing my new effects. They worked fine, which made me very happy. It was the built-in condition that I had trouble with. I'll ignore it for now and watch to see if it happens again. ....Actually, I won't be using the built-in grappled anymore since it isn't set to the PF rules. I'll probably need to go ahead and make a set of Pathfinder conditions anyway since others are different from 3.5e (like incorporeal).

Edit: Oh, by the way. I looking in the data_common.lua script that you indicated and found some of those lists. Thank you for that.
How hard would it be to expand the Save Type list to include spell schools and descriptors such as [mind-affecting], (charm), and [fear]? A lot of abilities that affect saves vs. certain types of effects.

[Moon Wizard]

If you can help me pinpoint which effects are not calculating correctly, then I can adjust them in the ruleset code.

Thanks,
JPG

[Nickademus]

I'll have to dig out my 3.5e book and see if it's a Pathfinder thing or an actual error. I'll whip up a list tonight.

Okay, here it is.

Corrections
Squeezing is: GRANTCA; ATK: -5
Should be: GRANTCA; ATK: -4; CMB -4; AC: -4
(Can't find squeezing rules at all for 3.5 so I guess it is a Pathfinder thing.)

Blinded is: AC: -2; GRANTCA; SKILL: -2 strength dexterity; SKILL: -4 search perception
Should be: AC: -2; GRANTCA; SKILL: -4 strength dexterity; SKILL: -4 search perception

Cowering is: AC: -2
Should be: AC: -2; GRANTCA

Dazzled is: ATK: -1; SKILL: -1 spot search perception
Should be: ATK: -1; CMB: -1; SKILL: -1 spot search perception

Deafened is: (nothing)
Should be: INIT: -4

Entangled is: ATK: -2; DEX: -4
Should be: ATK: -2; CMB: -2; DEX: -4

Frightened is: ATK: -2; SAVE: -2; SKILL: -2; ABIL: -2
Should be: ATK: -2; CMB: -2; SAVE: -2; SKILL: -2; ABIL: -2

Invisible is: ATK: 2; CA; TCONC
Should be: ATK: 2; CMB: 2; CA; TCONC

Panicked is: ATK: -2; SAVE: -2; SKILL: -2; ABIL: -2
Should be: ATK: -2; CMB: -2; SAVE: -2; SKILL: -2; ABIL: -2

Prone is: ATK: -4 melee; AC: -4 melee; AC: 4 ranged
Should be: ATK: -4 melee; CMB: -4; AC: -4 melee; AC: 4 ranged

Shaken is: ATK: -2; SAVE: -2; SKILL: -2; ABIL: -2;
Should be: ATK: -2; CMB: -2; SAVE: -2; SKILL: -2; ABIL: -2;

Sickened is: ATK: -2; DMG: -2; SAVE: -2; SKILL: -2; ABIL: -2;
Should be: ATK: -2; CMB: -2; DMG: -2; SAVE: -2; SKILL: -2; ABIL: -2;

Slowed is: ATK: -1; AC: -1; REF: -1
Should be: ATK: -1; CMB: -1; AC: -1; REF: -1

Ability Score Zero Conditions (may not be possible):
Helpless is: AC: -4 melee
Should be: AC: -4 melee; DEX: -*

Unconscious is: AC: -4 melee
Should be: Prone; Helpless

Paralyzed should be: Helpless; Str: -*

Petrified should be: Helpless

* = the current value of the ability score

Pathfinder Specific Condition Changes (3.5e conditions are accurate):
Grappled: DEX: -4; ATK: -2; CMB: -2 (except to grapple)

Incorporeal: (nothing; just click the Half Damage modifier)

[Nickademus]

Just noticed this. The Effect Modifiers page lists SAVE as the syntax for changing a specific save, but the Slowed effect has 'REF: -1'. Is that the right syntax for a Reflex save and just not listed or is it supposed to be 'SAVE: -1 reflex'?

[Callum]

You can find my corrections, which I posted in January last year, here (https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?15870-3-5E-v2-8-1-Condition-errors).

Squeezing (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/movementPositionAndDistance.htm#squeezing) does come from 3.5E. What makes it tricky is that (in both Pathfinder (https://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/combat.html#_squeezing) and 3.5E) there are actually two "levels" of squeezing. If you're in a space that's half as wide (or more) than your normal space, then you take ATK: -4 and AC: -4. If you manage to use Escape Artist to get into a space smaller than half your normal, then you take AC: -4, GRANTCA, and can't attack.

You might also be interested in my updated version of an Effects module (https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?18006-Effects-library&p=153520#post153520), which includes reminder text about the elements not handled by Fantasy Grounds.

[Nickademus]

I looked at your Effects module, but when I saw Charge only gave +1/-1 I put it on the back shelf to check later. Not sure where these numbers are coming from.

[Callum]

That's just a typo. It should be +2/-2, obviously.

[Nickademus]

Yes, well typos have to be fixed before something is usable.

At any rate, I don't think you understand what I'm talking about. Your list of effects are add-ons that simply point to the built-in conditions. You don't define a condition like Blind; your effect just applies 'Blind' and offers advise on the gray area outside the automation. I'm was pointing out that there are errors in the automation and asking for a list of the values being used in the program since I can't see an effect before it is used (or confirmation that the stats in the User Manual were the values in the code and thus incorrect).

Your list uses the built-in conditions and therefore has the same issues.

[Trenloe]

To answer your specific question Nick' - there isn't a list of exactly how the program is applying the automated conditions. Someone would have to go through the code and/or experiment with the application to create one.

[Nickademus]

Very well. Thanks for your help in this thread.

[Moon Wizard]

One of the challenges with the conditions is that the modifiers that they apply are situational.

I'm going to take a look at the list you sent for the v3.0 update that is currently in alpha testing.

Regards,
JPG

[Moon Wizard]

Callum/Nickademus42,

Thanks to both of you for the detailed reports.

Based on my analysis of your feedback, there will be adjustments to the Blinded, Deafened and Turned conditions. Otherwise, the conditions look correct. Please let me know if you see any errors.

Also, CA and GRANTCA were borrowed from my 4E effects as a short-hand way of stating "denied Dexterity bonus to AC". Technically, it tells the ruleset to use the flat-footed AC, instead of the regular AC, for attack roll resolution.

OK, starting with Callum's old post, since I must have missed it originally. Please correct me if this is not what you are seeing.



Blinded

Currently applying -2 penalty to strength/dexterity-based skill checks and -4 on search/perception skill checks.
Should be -4 to strength/dexterity skills as you stated. To be addressed in v3.0.


Cowering

Currently applying "GRANTCA", which means to use flat-footed AC when checking AC for attacks


Sickened

Currently applying -2 penalty to non-spell damage rolls
Spell damage currently has a separate internal damage roll type, so it should not be applying this penalty to spells.


​Turned

Currently applying -2 AC penalty
​Should apply no penalty as you stated. To be addressed in v3.0.



Next, Nickademus42's post. Again, please correct if you see something different.



From p.199 of the Pathfinder Core Rulebook, all attack bonuses/penalties are applied to CMB and all AC bonuses/penalties are applied to CMD. See the paragraph on CMB right before CMD is defined, and the first couple of paragraphs defining CMD. So, I will not respond specifically to those effects, since they should be correct. (Dazzled, Entangled, Frightened, Invisible, Panicked, Prone, Shaken, Sickened, Slowed)




Squeezing

Currently applying "ATK: -4; AC: -4" (which also applies to CMD, see note above)
Specifically for half as wide or more squeezing condition as stated in Pathfinder Core Rulebook on p.193.


Blinded

See above response to Callum.


Cowering

Currently applying "AC: -2; GRANTCA"


​Deafened

​​Currently applying nothing.
Should apply "INIT: -4". To be addressed in v3.0.​


Grappled

Special case
Applies ATK: -2 (not applied to CMB/grapple)
Applies DEX: -4 (Pathfinder only)
Applies CA to attacker (if attacker is not Grappled)


Helpless

Currently applying "AC: -4 melee; ACDexZero"
Currently, there is no mechanism to zero out Dexterity for anything other than AC. Given that the conditions that cause Dexterity zero usually preclude any actions, it has not been an issue. Also applies to Paralyzed, Petrified and Unconscious.


Paralyzed

Currently applying "AC: -4 melee; ACDexZero"
There is currently no mechanism to zero out Strength. As with the Dexterity zero state, the condition causing usually precludes any actions.


Petrified

Currently applying "AC: -4 melee; ACDexZero"


Unconscious

Currently applying "AC: -4 melee; ACDexZero"
Technically, this does not apply the prone effect according to the condition description, though it is a natural result.
It is expected that the Prone condition be applied separately, since it stays even after the creature is conscious again.​





Incorporeal

Currently a special case
Attacks

If an attacker with the Incorporeal condition makes an attack which is not specifically an "incorporeal touch" attack, the attacker is treated as "incorporeal".
If the defender has the Incorporeal condition, the defender is treated as "incorporeal".
If the attacker and defender "incorporeal" states are not the same, then the attack is given a 50% miss chance.


Damage

If damage does not have the "force, "spell" or "magic" damage types, then ignore it.
If damage has the "force" damage type, then ignore incorporeal state of defender.
If damage has the "spell" or "magic" damage types, then apply half damage in Pathfinder or full damage in 3.5E.




Note: The responses below are from reviewing the actual ruleset code. I may have to update the manual reference tables separately.

Thanks,
JPG

[Nickademus]

Looks mostly good. The values in-game are a bit different than what was posted in the User Manual (as I suspected).

Two things of note for Pathfinder specifically:
1. Grappling does not GRANTCA like in 3.5e
2. Incorporeal has no miss chance associated with it, just the half damage

Thanks for taking the time to address this.

[Moon Wizard]

Thanks for wading through my text. ;)

As you stated, the Incorporeal condition is already applying 50% miss chance in 3.5E and half damage in PFRPG.

Good catch on the Grappled condition. It will be addressed in v3.0.

Thanks,
JPG

[JerryRig]

I try to open the labels as described here and it goes back to a page that was their before I opened the submenu's to select from

[Trenloe]

I try to open the labels as described here and it goes back to a page that was their before I opened the submenu's to select from
I'm confused as to what that means. Could you expand upon the steps you are carrying out?

[Nickademus]

Some of this has been changed in 3.0 FG, so the spells look different. Or are you referring to the web page?