View Full Version : Minor Spell Issues

July 25th, 2013, 02:12
I glanced through the 3.0 release notes and didn't see anything like this (not that I expected to), but thought I'd bring to your attention a few things I noticed about the spell entry in the action tab while making a spellcaster in the 3.5e/PFRPG ruleset.

#1. There is no caster level modifier on individual spells, only the spell class as a whole
#2. There is no way to indicate a minimum value of 1 for the numeric variables of a spell action
#3. There is no way to input different die types into the initial and per-caster-level numeric variables

There are several feats, traits, class abilities, spells and items that grant a caster level bonus to a single spell or group of spells. There is no way to adjust the overall CL number in the spell description as can be done for the save DC and SR check.

Not as important, but a lot of 1st-level class abilities use the Even CL to increase variable but have the notation '(minimum 1)' since a 1st-level character's CL will round down to zero. Simple formulas can just be worked around by avoiding the variable fields and putting a universal 1 in the final modifier. But a player would have to remember to change it back upon reaching level 2 or 3.

I didn't come across this myself, nor is it all that critical, but I figured I'd mention it with the others. If I remember right, there are a few spells that deal one type of damage die on the initial damage and a second type that scales per caster level (i.e. 2d8 + 1d6/level damage). The current numeric variable fields don't differentiate between initial and scaling damage dice.

Don't really expected any of this to be fixed, but wanted to throw it out there. Obviously a lot of work has been done to provide easy-input fields in the spell entries and this would fall in line with that mentality.

July 29th, 2013, 03:18
Something else I noticed that I would like to bring to your attention.

The way the Empower Spell feat works in Pathfinder differs from 3.5e. The additional effect of rolled variables (such as the 10d6 of a CL 10 fireball) are rolled separately instead of a universal +50% of the total. This change has an effect when combined with other metamagics in Pathfinder, especially Maximize Spell.

In the spell action for damage and healing, the choice of Empower is just increasing the end result. I figure this is asking a bit much, but can the application of Empower in the PFRPG ruleset apply to the number of dice that are rolled rather than the result of the roll? And can this application be rolled after the Maximize setting in the spell action (currently the two can't be set to be used together for some reason).

For instance in Pathfinder, a CL 10 fireball deals 10d6 fire damage. The same fireball Empowered deals 15d6 fire damage. Maximized it deals 60 fire damage. Maximize and empowered it deals 60+5d6 fire damage. Also keeping track of the total number of dice for the spell would be helpful since abilities affect this.

Moon Wizard
August 2nd, 2013, 03:38
According to the Pathfinder FAQ, the Empower Spell feat works the same as in 3.5E.

Thanks for the breakout on the spell improvements. Definitely on the list, just lower priority right now with v3.0 in testing.


August 2nd, 2013, 04:13
An empowered, maximized spell gains the separate benefits of each feat: the maximum result plus half the normally rolled result.

The FAQ confirms that empower does works on the 2d8 (making it 3d8) and on the non-random numerical bonus. It doesn't mention anything there about how empower works. The above quote shows that the effects of Empower are rolled dice instead of a multiplier to the end result.

All variable, numeric effects of an empowered spell are increased by half, including bonuses to those dice rolls.

This shows that the 'numeric effects' that Empower affects are the dice rolls.

Probably more digging than you want to get into, but here is a post (http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2lwfp?Intensified-Empowered-Maximized-Burning-Hands#1) on the Paizo message boards detailing the interaction of Maximize, Empower and Intensify Spell metamagics. The second post by Ragingdork shows the in-depth breakdown of what is maximized and what is rolled.

Moon Wizard
August 2nd, 2013, 04:47
Every example I've seen for Empower Spell adds 50% of the total after everything is added up, even in the thread you posted and in the FAQ I posted. This is consistent with v3.5E. The Intenstified Spell metamagic feat is the one that provides extra dice, not Empower Spell. The combination of metamagic feats is a different question.

In all circumstances, I hesitate to use unofficial threads as the basis of my ruleset decisions. They tend to be filled with lots of opinions and individual interpretations of the rules. The issue is that in many cases there are varying interpretations that could all be correct, and only the game designers can answer the question about which is right. Thus, I'll wait for an official FAQ on the subject.

For now, I'll leave the ruleset as is, where a spell can either be maximized or empowered, since that ruling is straightforward and documented via FAQ.


August 2nd, 2013, 05:23
Upon further investigation, it seems Jason Bulmahn changed how Empower works twice and then Sean Reynolds changed it again. Currently the extra dice from Empower only occurs when combined with the Maximize feat.

Since FG doesn't have automation for both Empower and Maximize together, this isn't really an issue. (All I really care about is the individual caster level anyway...)