The not so secretive tower of exploding die

[Mask_of_winter]

I love the dice tower. And I would use it more if the die shadow wouldnt appear on the table when in use. Players know they rolled high if they see the dice exploding. Can that be patched?

[tauriih]

Seconded. This is especially problematic when player decisions and information are influenced by the outcome of a secret roll. Seeing the "shadow explosion" alerts players that the roll was likely successful, thus compromising a significant portion of the secrecy.

For example, if I present an investigation scenario and give conflicting clues to two players who both rolled in the tower, the PCs will know that the clue revealed by the explosion is likely the correct one. Even if I can trust them not to metagame, most of the mystery and fun are lost.

[Doswelk]

To be honest I do not mind the die exploding in the tower...

In a face-to-face game the players hear me re-rolling exploding dice, so this is not different.

Also when I make players make tower rolls I do not tell them what modifiers they have to the roll, unless the roll explodes more than once, they only know they have rolled 1 to numbers of sides on die-1 higher, then they wonder about the mods I'm applying.

[bennis1980]

We encounter this in Rolemaster too on a 96-100 roll. It would be nice to hear any solutions to this problem.

I do have one solution which I have used on many occasions to keep my players on their toes: throw random dice rolls simulating exploding dice (the GM dice must be ghosted for players for this to work). I give the players a vague idea that I've done it (like a GM giggle). They are aware that I sometimes do try to fool them so it keeps them second guessing.

The above temp fix is much easier in RM as you just need 2d10 ready to go, but you could have one of each die (plus whatever the wild die is) ready in a quick tab. Of course this is a crass temporary measure and it would be nice to see this fixed, but it does create some funny situations: a critical fail in which the player is sure of their success!

[Trenloe]

We encounter this in Rolemaster too on a 96-100 roll. It would be nice to hear any solutions to this problem.
A lot of RM rolls that are open ended can go down as well - so players seeing shadow dice could mean GREAT or OH CRAP! ;-)

[phantomwhale]

If you want it - chuck it on the wish list :) I just did a tidy up, so it's much trimmer after the upcoming 3.4 adjustments

Suspect the only way of doing this would be to not use the 3D dice at all, and just pop a magical value into the GM chat - or MAYBE just show the first roll, and don't show any explodes.

What I suspect I can't do (without core FGII changes) is roll a GM dice and not show the players the shadow. Mind you, it's hard to roll a secret explode at the gaming table too, unless you have very soft, stealthy dice...

Workaround, whenever you see a tower roll, quickly throw 6d6 exploding damage dice out yourself :D Baffle the players...

[Doswelk]

My favourite option a player of mine suggested is always have the dice explode (i.e. throw fake dice but do not record result).

[Trenloe]

My favourite option a player of mine suggested is always have the dice explode (i.e. throw fake dice but do not record result).
I think this is a good idea. Confusion will reign! :D

[Mask_of_winter]

I can work around it. I have the player make 3 rolls and secretly roll a d6 that will determine which roll counts. I dont need half the neat gadgets you clever programmers made for this ruleset if I run a game face to face but FG2 and this ruleset offers possibilities that aren't there for face to face games. I guess I was curious to see if my sentiments on the matter were shared and if it was possible to change this.

Thank you Ben.

[phantomwhale]

On reflection, psychologically, I think just occasionally tossing out the odd dice just after a secret roll should be enough...

"I'm afraid the guard hears your approach", "But I saw the roll explode ?..."

...once you've fooled them once, they'll never trust the shadow rolls ever again :)

[Moon Wizard]

Yeah, it would require a change to the FG client to create a "secret" flag or something similar to keep the die roll shadows from being sent over the network.

Regards,
JPG

[Lysander]

The problem I was confronted with is this: The player has bennies for a reason, to reroll bad rolls at their option. If you have them roll secretly in a dice tower, they do not have the data available to determine if they should spend a bennie to reroll.

Example: I have a d12 in notice and am asked to make a secret dice tower roll. I roll d12 with my wild die, and even w/out exploding, I don't know if I rolled a 2 (most likely a fail) or an 11 (most likely a success with a raise). (or a 2/5 with the wild die, likely a fail/success)

I have no solution from this direction of the problem either. Ultimately, I abandoned the dice tower for Savage Worlds except for special situations...

[phantomwhale]

Yes, I must admit since porting the dice tower over to Savage Worlds, I've very rarely used it, precisely because of the benny re-roll mechanism.

[sakmerlin37]

Yeah, I haven't used the dice tower in SW due to the bennies/fate chips. Although, if you hold it in reserve...

[Doswelk]

Actually the fact you know whether or not a dice has exploded does not nerf the tower as much!

I have had players spend a bennie because the dice did not explode, so maybe we should keep it as it is!

[Mask_of_winter]

I'm glad this thread has spurred some interesting discussion.

I totally understand your point Lysander. I guess its a flaw in the Savage Worlds rules. Depending how you look at it. I think Pinnacle hopes SW players are mature enough to roleplay the result of their rolls and keep with the spirit of the narrative so that if they roll a critical failure on a knowledge check they will not metagame. But we all know very few players will let their characters be vulnerable on purpose when they know the information they've been given is false.

Let me ask you this Lysander. You say that if the roll is made secretly you dont have all the information you need to decided whether you should use a benny or not. What about modifiers to the roll, is that out in the open in your game also or kept a secret by the gm? Because if the difficulty of a knowledge check is kept secret, one would not have all the necessary information to decide if he should use a benny or not.

[Mgrancey]

As a suggestion with an investigation situation, if someone explodes provide more clues, not necessarily more accurate ones. If they get two similar clues one true and one false. Well, now their exploding die seems a lot less sure.

[Lysander]

MoW: Depends on the situation on modifiers, some things they would be aware of if it's in their immediate environment - yes, some not so much. In a face to face game, If I'm in an critical negotiation and I roll a 2 & 2, the game mechanism allows me at my option to re-roll with a bennie to try to get a better result. Metagaming not withstanding, the SW system allows the player to try to sway the situation with bennies as the players discretion.

In FG as a player, if I can't see the roll, I can't determine if it is in my (or the group's) best interest to spend a bennie or not. As a GM, if I want a hidden roll, I tend to roll off the chat window so I can see the result without exploding dice tipping off the players. Occasionally I will make players roll in the dice box for something they would have absolutely no chance to know what is going on (a rare circumstance).