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KhybersGhost
June 3rd, 2013, 06:49
I've recently been taking a peek at the GURPS rule set as well as the Rifts rule set. There doesn't seem to be any automation at all for either. (click as I may on fields on the character sheets, I can't seem to get a single dice roll) Are the rule sets primarily cosmetic at this point?

Isembard
June 3rd, 2013, 13:23
Steve Jacksons Online Gaming Policy forbids automation, which is why it hasn't been included with the ruleset.

Rolling dice is handled by dragging from the character sheet to the chat window.

Saith_mobile
June 3rd, 2013, 15:30
Gurps has a minimal automation.and success/failure/criticle checks as well as handling rapid fire of ranged weapons. The goals in development are to smooth play while maintaining the policies set by SJGames. You can lean more at http://enhanced.vlexofree.com
Which is where I currently maintain the ruleset with the.help of the community.

yako2020
June 13th, 2013, 13:40
I understand how the rules of SJ Games, but I also believe they should rethink this regard, because as we are in an age of information, where people from distant places can interact almost instantly, automation would give us the feeling of playing a game Gurps of truth.
And yes it would change anything in my system like, my desire for new books and of course the fact that I could meet with my friends, eat snacks and take a lot of soda, but when automation facilitates to have that tremendous desire but we can not play together and always know that even in the rare exceptions that could move in are available for play via internet.
Remember that this is only a dream and a humble opinion.

Trenloe
June 13th, 2013, 17:45
I understand how the rules of SJ Games, but I also believe they should rethink this regard, because as we are in an age of information, where people from distant places can interact almost instantly, automation would give us the feeling of playing a game Gurps of truth.
And yes it would change anything in my system like, my desire for new books and of course the fact that I could meet with my friends, eat snacks and take a lot of soda, but when automation facilitates to have that tremendous desire but we can not play together and always know that even in the rare exceptions that could move in are available for play via internet.
Remember that this is only a dream and a humble opinion.
I'm sure everyone here agrees with you. Let SJ Games know how you feel! :-)

Gigermann
June 14th, 2013, 00:21
Actually, I don't agree, for the very reasons SJG created that rule—if you automate everything, you don't need the books to play, so you stop buying the books. Bad for business.

Trenloe
June 14th, 2013, 01:00
Actually, I don't agree, for the very reasons SJG created that rule—if you automate everything, you don't need the books to play, so you stop buying the books. Bad for business.
I don't think allowing more automation of online GURPS gaming would stop people buying books. I'd argue that it would attract more people to GURPS if there were a few well constructed VTTs out there aiding people to play GURPS online by automating core aspects of the rules. I'm not talking about any of the supplements, just stuff from the basic set that is needed to run the games online. It wouldn't need to cover character creation (this can be imported from the GURPS character generator) or players can create them manually - still requiring players to buy books.

Being even more free with their data (i.e. publishing under the OGL) doesn't seem to have stopped Paizo selling lots of their Pathfinder core books, despite every single bit of the data in these books being available online for free: http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/

It's always a subject for debate as to whether being a bit more lenient with rights will help or hinder a company's commercial development - but it certainly helps reach more people if there are portions that can be re-used (like game mechanics) by the community at large.

S Ferguson
June 15th, 2013, 01:50
I don't think allowing more automation of online GURPS gaming would stop people buying books. I'd argue that it would attract more people to GURPS if there were a few well constructed VTTs out there aiding people to play GURPS online by automating core aspects of the rules. I'm not talking about any of the supplements, just stuff from the basic set that is needed to run the games online. It wouldn't need to cover character creation (this can be imported from the GURPS character generator) or players can create them manually - still requiring players to buy books.

Being even more free with their data (i.e. publishing under the OGL) doesn't seem to have stopped Paizo selling lots of their Pathfinder core books, despite every single bit of the data in these books being available online for free: http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/

It's always a subject for debate as to whether being a bit more lenient with rights will help or hinder a company's commercial development - but it certainly helps reach more people if there are portions that can be re-used (like game mechanics) by the community at large.

I'm on the automated side over the issue. GURPS is also at a lull in it's sales period. The game has wandered away from the simplicity of 2e or 3e revised. I can't really see how you can hinder sales by making the ruleset automated, that's why you need to buy the books: to learn the game. As there is no text from the rulebooks available in the ruleset, unless you know what you're doing it's pretty much useless, automated or not. An automated system in a VTT often advances sales as the players would probably pick up at least the Player's Handbook, if not more, if the GM really turns them on to the system. I know from personal experience that I've bought games after playing them online. The books fill the vacuum between the player's and the GM so everyone's on the same playing field. On the other hand SJ is rather particular about the intellectual rights of his products. He just isn't comfortable with the modern-age of electronic gaming yet.

Mellock
June 15th, 2013, 09:11
Actually, I don't agree, for the very reasons SJG created that rule—if you automate everything, you don't need the books to play, so you stop buying the books. Bad for business.

I can't speak for anyone besides myself, ofcourse, but Fantasy Grounds has been the major drive for me to keep buying books. Automated or not. It's what keeps me into gaming. I mostly play 4e, which is one of the most possibly-automated rulesets out there. I have four GURPS books with 2 more on the wish list. If saithan hadn't said "Hey, I'm doing a GURPS game, and we're a player short, you wanna join?" I wouldn't have bothered. Same with Savage Worlds. I have a heap of books for it now, and haven't even played it for ages. But it's well supported on FG2, and so when I find a book that strikes my fancy, I think "This may come in handy, and it looks cool" instead of "I'll never get to play it anyway, better get another one, or just leave it."

It's not books I pass over, it's things like physical battlemats, miniatures, scratch paper and markers and dice. Okay, I may buy some dice now and then.

S Ferguson
June 15th, 2013, 15:00
It's not books I pass over, it's things like physical battlemats, miniatures, scratch paper and markers and dice. Okay, I may buy some dice now and then.

You buy dice? Haven't you already accumulated enough dice to give 15 people and their respective mothers a set? For shame....:)

GunnarGreybeard
June 16th, 2013, 09:07
I'm with Trenloe on this. It was Saithan's GURPS ruleset that got me to buy the GURPS books and supplements I have. I may never use them with Fantasy Grounds all but it encouraged me to dig deeper into the system enough so that I'm playing it F2F tabletop. IMHO, if the SJ Games powers that be allowed for a more automated ruleset (it doesn't need to be to the extensive level that RMC and D&D 4E are), it might even encourage more players to jump in.

yako2020
June 16th, 2013, 15:12
I know here in where I come from a town in the interior of São Paulo in Brazil. The RPG books are very rare. It's a fight to get one or to launch a book of Gurs. Here the staff prefers WoD or D & D. I grew up with GURPS, taste and play it today. But time passes mudsam some players, new players come into our matches, but I think there must be wondering where the fantasy grounds and its automation go ... because I say he goes in order to facilitate visualições, expedite calculations, unite and meet distant friends and we can still imagine a new way of SJ sell their supplements. And here where I'm usually one or two people in the group have the books and data. Thing that ever could be different in Fantasy Grounds. Example: I really like the style cyberpunk adventures, so let's say I would have to play to have the Basic Module and complements Ultratech and Hightech and every player who wanted to participate should have these supplements. This is just an ideas, but whatever.

saithan
June 16th, 2013, 23:22
Yako you need to make your ideas known to SJGames. you are making your point and it is fine but you are making it to the wrong people!

in the mater of automation I am old school so I tend to only need enough to just enough and the current policy at SJGames does not effect me. as weather people want it that is fine too I am neutral, but SJGames makes their policies and they are the ones that need convincing.

S Ferguson
June 16th, 2013, 23:41
Yako you need to make your ideas known to SJGames. you are making your point and it is fine but you are making it to the wrong people!

If you've ever dealt with SJG's legal department prepared to be stonewalled. They spent a lot of time with programmers working on RPGs that wanted to use the GURPS system but there was only one that "made it" and it was a flop, in terms of sales. The public is curtailed to using partially automated systems (like the character generator in Hero Labs) and they like to keep it that way. I don't really think it's sales of product they're worried about, but more of keeping GURPS quality control consistent. After all if someone put out a version of GURPS, and it "hurt the products image," that impacts sales, and gets there ire up.

I don't think though that it would hurt to try contacting them. If we got together a electronic petition, they might provide a license. And that's a *big* "might." and it depends on the number of GURPS FG fans clamoring for a product, under their "control," that the ruleset on FG is not complete without knowledge of the game itself.

Otherwise semi-auto (geez, I sound like a gun nut here) all the way. There's more than one way to skirt around the license. Like splitting up sections of gameplay, so that while something might take two clicks in different boxes, instead of one.

Just my 2 cents worth
SF

saithan
June 16th, 2013, 23:55
I am in contact with gurps writers (in a game with a few) and am quite aware of the issues with them not being interested in talking (they are worse in licensing as you pointed out) not to mention spyke had gotten a cease and desist back in the days of grip.

currently I have skirted the policy to a degree that seems ok(though it caused a slight rift with me and spyke). atm the ruleset tracks successes/failures and crits as well as ranged weapons autofire and rapid fire rules. (coming next is damage multipliers for those heavy damage dealing dragons and sci-fi weapons.) also various tools in the ruleset to ease the GMs burden are being developed and improved.

I would think it cool if people tried to sway them on the mater! regardless of how I feel about automation the attention could be good!

S Ferguson
June 17th, 2013, 00:12
I am in contact with gurps writers (in a game with a few) and am quite aware of the issues with them not being interested in talking (they are worse in licensing as you pointed out) not to mention spyke had gotten a cease and desist back in the days of grip.

currently I have skirted the policy to a degree that seems ok(though it caused a slight rift with me and spyke). atm the ruleset tracks successes/failures and crits as well as ranged weapons autofire and rapid fire rules. (coming next is damage multipliers for those heavy damage dealing dragons and sci-fi weapons.) also various tools in the ruleset to ease the GMs burden are being developed and improved.

I would think it cool if people tried to sway them on the mater! regardless of how I feel about automation the attention could be good!

I love those features. Glad to hear your still improving the system. GURPS-o-philes I'm sure are quite happy in the direction you're taking the ruleset. The main thing though is an audience. Sort of similar to a "class action suit" where a large number of people show their love for both the system and FG, and bring it to their attention. Not that they're not used to dealing with the FBI confiscating their computers or anything.

Spyke
August 5th, 2013, 18:10
not to mention spyke had gotten a cease and desist back in the days of grip.

It has to be said that it was a very nicely worded and friendly cease and desist. ;-)

GURPS 4e-Enhanced has already taken things a step or two closer to the line than I was comfortable with originally with the earlier GURPS 4e ruleset, though, of course over at MapTool they went much further. SJG have drawn a line that keeps third party activity in check. People cross that line, but not too far, as SJG's intention is clear. They want to keep control of the GURPS mechanics as far as apps are concerned.

Spyke

S Ferguson
August 5th, 2013, 18:13
It has to be said that it was a very nicely worded and friendly cease and desist. ;-)

Spyke

They are fairly nicely written, in a legalese sort of fashion :P

Spyke
August 5th, 2013, 18:28
currently I have skirted the policy to a degree that seems ok(though it caused a slight rift with me and spyke).

Not really a rift, saithan. It's more that I've been a) so insanely busy this last few years, and b) got swept up with iTabletop (*) when I did have some leisure time, that I've never really found time to work out how to respond to your enhancements. There were areas of automation that I was uncomfortable with which were going out in a ruleset that essentially had my name on it.

I'm very pleased generally that you've taken my work forward, though, as I simply haven't had the time to keep my earlier set updated for changes in FG itself. (I should probably update my site. Does v0.96 even work any more?)

Spyke

(*) iTabletop suited me down to the ground due to having very little spare time. Playing face to face with video chat and a way to hand out PDF character sheets meant far less prep work than I used to have to do for an FG session.

Fantasy Grounds is still my favourite VT for text chat-based games.

saithan
August 5th, 2013, 23:50
it is awesome to see you around again.
there are a few updates needed for 0.96 nothing major
i'll PM you my G+, contact me.