Holy Vindicator

[Gertak]

I'm thinking of creating an oracle or cleric to grow into a holy vindicator and was hoping to get some input on a couple of things that aren't super clear to me.

The Holy Vindicator channel energy says it stacks with any other class that gives channel energy ("The vindicator's class level stacks with level in any other class that grants the channel energy ability"). How would this work if I took say 7 levels of cleric, 1 level of oracle, and 4 levels of holy vindicator? Would I channel x number of times per day as 1+4 and x number of times per day as 7+4? Or would I channel as 1+7+4 and if it's that way, how many times a day would I channel?

The oracle gains spells per levels as a normal spontaneous caster and then an extra spell every 2 levels from it's mystery. Would the character still gain that extra mystery spell when advancing as a holy vindicator? For that matter, would the cleric still gain the domain spell? I know it wouldn't gain the domain abilities but the domain spell? It makes it confusing because the Holy Vindicator, under spells, says specifically "At the indicated levels, a vindicator gains spells per day as if he had also gained a level in a divine spellcasting class he belong to before adding the prestige class. He does not, however, gain other benefits of that class other than spells per day, spells known, and an increased level of spellcasting."

What would happen if a Holy Vindicator got a ring of regeneration? Would he just not be able to activate his Stigmata at all while wearing it? (ring of regeneration makes you immune to bleed damage)

[Trenloe]

I'm thinking of creating an oracle or cleric to grow into a holy vindicator and was hoping to get some input on a couple of things that aren't super clear to me.

The Holy Vindicator channel energy says it stacks with any other class that gives channel energy ("The vindicator's class level stacks with level in any other class that grants the channel energy ability"). How would this work if I took say 7 levels of cleric, 1 level of oracle, and 4 levels of holy vindicator? Would I channel x number of times per day as 1+4 and x number of times per day as 7+4? Or would I channel as 1+7+4 and if it's that way, how many times a day would I channel?

When you refer to an Oracle I assume you mean with the life mystery and "Channel (SU)" class ability?

The difference here is that this is "Channel (SU)" and not "Channel Energy (SU)" (subtle difference). So, only cleric and holy vindicator levels (in your example) will stack for the purposes of calculating Channel Energy effects.

EDIT: Sorry, I've re-read your message. I'd say you don't get the extras - as it specifically says you are getting the "spells per day" entry on the cleric or oracle class table.


The oracle gains spells per levels as a normal spontaneous caster and then an extra spell every 2 levels from it's mystery. Would the character still gain that extra mystery spell when advancing as a holy vindicator? For that matter, would the cleric still gain the domain spell? I know it wouldn't gain the domain abilities but the domain spell? It makes it confusing because the Holy Vindicator, under spells, says specifically "At the indicated levels, a vindicator gains spells per day as if he had also gained a level in a divine spellcasting class he belong to before adding the prestige class. He does not, however, gain other benefits of that class other than spells per day, spells known, and an increased level of spellcasting."
You stopped quoting from the reference just at the point that your question would have been answered - it goes on to say (immediately after your quote above): "If he had more than one divine spellcasting class before becoming a vindicator, he must decide to which class he adds the new level for the purpose of determining spells per day."

What would happen if a Holy Vindicator got a ring of regeneration? Would he just not be able to activate his Stigmata at all while wearing it? (ring of regeneration makes you immune to bleed damage)
"Activating stigmata causes bleed damage..." if you're immune to bleed then Id' say you can't activate stigmata.

[Gertak]

Lets substitute the paladin ability to channel for the Oracle, then, so the same situation applies. How would it stack then?
On the same note, though, here is something pulled from a FAQ:
Channel Energy: If I have this ability from more than one class, do they stack?

No—unless an ability specifically says it stacks with similar abilities (such as an assassin's sneak attack), or adds in some way based on the character's total class levels (such as improved uncanny dodge), the abilities don't stack and you have to use them separately. Therefore, cleric channeling doesn't stack with paladin channeling, necromancer channeling, oracle of life channeling, and so on.

—Sean K Reynolds, 07/14/11

This doesn't seem to imply it is not the same thing as it mentions them all together. I still didn't find anything on the holy vindicator specifically, though.

On the spells part I understand I only get to choose one divine class to gain the spells from, but in the case of the oracle do I gain the mystery spells? Or in the case of the cleric do I gain the domain spells?
Actually from doing some searching on the forums it seems to imply, though I didn't see an official response, that you would gain neither the mystery spell nor the domain spell.

That's what I assumed on the bleed part, would be a bit crazy otherwise.

[Trenloe]

Lets substitute the paladin ability to channel for the Oracle, then, so the same situation applies. How would it stack then?
It may be just down to semantics, but the Paladin's ability is "Channel Positive Energy (SU)" - also it uses different mechanics than the cleric ability, in terms of number of times it can be used.


On the same note, though, here is something pulled from a FAQ:
Channel Energy: If I have this ability from more than one class, do they stack?

No—unless an ability specifically says it stacks with similar abilities (such as an assassin's sneak attack), or adds in some way based on the character's total class levels (such as improved uncanny dodge), the abilities don't stack and you have to use them separately. Therefore, cleric channeling doesn't stack with paladin channeling, necromancer channeling, oracle of life channeling, and so on.

—Sean K Reynolds, 07/14/11

This doesn't seem to imply it is not the same thing as it mentions them all together. I still didn't find anything on the holy vindicator specifically, though.
Thinking of it a little... The Holy Vindicator does say "The vindicator's class level stacks with levels in any other class that grants the channel energy ability." so, does this mean that you add Holy Vindicator levels to both the cleric and oracle? They won't stack all together as the mechanics are different, but would you get oracle channel as Oracle + VL levels and cleric channel as cleric + VL levels - I think this would be too powerful.


On the spells part I understand I only get to choose one divine class to gain the spells from, but in the case of the oracle do I gain the mystery spells? Or in the case of the cleric do I gain the domain spells?
Actually from doing some searching on the forums it seems to imply, though I didn't see an official response, that you would gain neither the mystery spell nor the domain spell.
The ability specifically says "He does not, however, gain other benefits of that class other than spells per day, spells known, and an increased level of spellcasting." "Spells per day" is a specific entry in the class table. See the entries for Oracle and Cleric and see where "Spells per day" is listed in the table:
https://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/advanced/baseClasses/oracle.html
https://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/classes/cleric.html#_cleric

Note, if you are looking on d20pfsrd then it incorrectly labels the spells an oracle gets as just "Spells" and not "Spells per day" - this may have been a cause of the confusion?

So, from this, I'd say you don't get the extras for mystery or domain spells.

[Gertak]

Ya, it seems really powerful to me as well but I'm not sure how else to interpret it...

[Callum]

It may be just down to semantics, but the Paladin's ability is "Channel Positive Energy (SU)" - also it uses different mechanics than the cleric ability, in terms of number of times it can be used.


Thinking of it a little... The Holy Vindicator does say "The vindicator's class level stacks with levels in any other class that grants the channel energy ability." so, does this mean that you add Holy Vindicator levels to both the cleric and oracle? They won't stack all together as the mechanics are different, but would you get oracle channel as Oracle + VL levels and cleric channel as cleric + VL levels - I think this would be too powerful.

I think you addressed this earlier, Trenloe - a Life Oracle gets an ability called Channel that is like, but not the same as, Channel Energy; so the Holy Vindicator levels won't stack with the Oracle levels.


The ability specifically says "He does not, however, gain other benefits of that class other than spells per day, spells known, and an increased level of spellcasting." "Spells per day" is a specific entry in the class table. See the entries for Oracle and Cleric and see where "Spells per day" is listed in the table:
https://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/advanced/baseClasses/oracle.html
https://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/classes/cleric.html#_cleric

Note, if you are looking on d20pfsrd then it incorrectly labels the spells an oracle gets as just "Spells" and not "Spells per day" - this may have been a cause of the confusion?

So, from this, I'd say you don't get the extras for mystery or domain spells.
Yes, that's what I think, too.

[Gertak]

If you read that quote from Sean K Reynolds that I posted, he specifically says "Therefore, cleric channeling doesn't stack with palading channeling, necromancer channeling, oracle life channeling, and so on.". Though that is not a direct statement of they are all the same, it definitely does imply that it is, especially becuase if they weren't the same this question wouldn't even need an answer. Or at least I think he would have said they are not the same.

Actually I found a much more direct answer from Sean (and MUCH longer read but does have some very good information):
paizo.com/threads/rzs2ln8z?Can-A-Life-Oracle-with-Channeling-take

To summarize he says "if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it's probably a duck." and also goes further to say they are the same thing.

[Callum]

Thanks for the link (https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2ln8z?Can-A-Life-Oracle-with-Channeling-take), Gertak - that thread makes interesting reading. Although I have several issues with what SKR says in it (particularly his unsatisfactory explanations of why rules sometimes have different wordings - it shouldn't be too hard for a professional design team to ensure that two things that are the same end up being called the same thing), it does seem clear that the different channel energy abilities are all intended to be interchangeable. Therefore, a cleric/life oracle/holy vindicator will use cleric levels + HV levels to determine the damage dice and save DC of the clerical channel energy, and oracle levels + HV levels to determine the damage dice and save DC of the oracular channel energy.

Is that too powerful? The damage dice and DC will still lag behind those of a single-classed cleric or oracle, but you will get a greater number of uses per day overall. A life oracle 18 with Cha 24 would get 9d6 channel energy (DC 26) 8 times a day; while a cleric 4 / life oracle 4 / holy vindicator 10 with Cha 24 would get 7d6 channel energy (DC 24) 18 times a day; and a cleric 9 / life oracle 9 with Cha 24 would get 5d6 channel energy (DC 21) 18 times a day. But the C4/LO4/HV10 would only have 11th-level spell-casting ability (5th-level spells max), as opposed to 18th-level ability (with 9th-level spells) for a single-classed cleric or oracle. Overall, I'd say that's a reasonable trade-off, and not too powerful. (A cleric 1 / life oracle 7 / holy vindicator 10 with Cha 24 would get 9d6 channel energy (DC 25) 8 times a day, 6d6 channel energy (DC 22) 10 times a day, and 14th-level spell-casting ability, with 7th-level spells.)

[Gertak]

Thanks very much for your input Callum! The way you spelled it out it doesn't look overly powerful in a fight, pretty much just negates downtime without having to use heal spells or items. Alternately allows using cleric channel offensively and still having oracle channel for healing. With the spellcasting lost, realistically still way too big a hit to be worth it from a power level standpoint I think.