Environmental Tokens?

[Honken]

I am just going to throw this out there...
What I am thinking about is having 2 layers of token. The bottom layer can be locked in place. The second and top layer being the characters and their adversaries, and should be able to change as the encounter progress. Is this a ruleset specific feature or would it have to be implemented in FG core?

As it is now, and correct me if I am wrong. There can be layers of tokens, but when 2 stack, you only get to grab the bottom one. Which is very annoying since you will grab an environmental token every second time.

And while I am at it. I would like to thank the source hackers and the ruleset fiddlers for making this awesome product. It has given me countless hours of fun.

/Honken - Long time user of FG, also... rambling.

[Trenloe]

DrZeuss has put together a great little extension that provides 3 layers for tokens on images/maps.

He made it for the 4e ruleset: https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14916

It has been converted to some rulesets:

3.5e: https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15647
Savage Worlds: https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18307

[Honken]

Oh, thank you! It will work with Pathfinder i presume?

/H

[Trenloe]

Oh, thank you! It will work with Pathfinder i presume?

/H
Pathfinder is rolled into the 3.5e ruleset with only minor changes based on the system mode (3.5e or PFRPG) of the campaign. The underlying FG functionality is exactly the same.

So, yes, this will work for the 3.5e ruleset in PFRPG mode.

[Griogre]

I don't believe the multi layer map extensions can be use to with premade encounters that you are going to export as part of a module, though. That's the biggest reason I don't use them.

[Trenloe]

I don't believe the multi layer map extensions can be use to with premade encounters that you are going to export as part of a module, though. That's the biggest reason I don't use them.
I've just done a test with this and it works fine for me.

What I did was:

Created a new 3.5E campaign (PF mode) with the Enhanced Image extension enabled.
Added a map to the campaign.
Dragged the "Elemental, Air (Large)" creature from the Bestiary to the NPC list.
Added one of Raymond's cool tokens to the creature in the NPC list.
Created a new encounter - added the creature from the NPC list to the encounter.
Opened the map - making sure I was on the top (play) layer.
Placed the tokens from the encounter on the map.
Exported the campaign to a module - include "Images & Maps", "Personalities" and "Encounters". You will receive a couple of errors in the chat window regarding the layers.
Created a new 3.5e Campaign (PF mode) with the enhanced images extension enabled.
Opened the exported module from step #8.
Opened the map from the module.
Opened the encounter from the module and clicked the "Add NPCs to Combat Tracker" button - the NPCs are added to the combat tracker and the tokens appear on the map (invisible).

[Griogre]

I'm such a D&D nerd - I started to lay down a few tiles for a map to see if 4E was different - liked the map and got an adventure idea, so then I created a short 14th level 4E 3 encounter delve. So I guess some of my players will bless or curse your name Trenloe... ;)

Ok back on course, the problem appears to happen in step 2. Instead of adding an image I created a drawing and added tiles to the bottom layer to make the map. And when I exported the module I got 3 warnings:

Warning: Image 'features_image' contains only non-exported drawing data.
Warning: Image 'image' contains only non-exported drawing data.
Warning: Image 'play_image' contains only non-exported drawing data.

I'm out of time, but I would presume the problem is drawings don't export encounter data so a work around should be if you wanted to use a tile map would be to create a blank image to use as a back drop to drop your map tiles on. I'll check this tomorrow.

[Trenloe]

I'm such a D&D nerd - I started to lay down a few tiles for a map to see if 4E was different - liked the map and got an adventure idea, so then I created a short 14th level 4E 3 encounter delve. So I guess some of my players will bless or curse your name Trenloe... ;)
Cursing or blessing depends on if they survive and what the rewards are! :-D


Ok back on course, the problem appears to happen in step 2. Instead of adding an image I created a drawing and added tiles to the bottom layer to make the map. And when I exported the module I got 3 warnings:

Warning: Image 'features_image' contains only non-exported drawing data.
Warning: Image 'image' contains only non-exported drawing data.
Warning: Image 'play_image' contains only non-exported drawing data.

I'm out of time, but I would presume the problem is drawings don't export encounter data so a work around should be if you wanted to use a tile map would be to create a blank image to use as a back drop to drop your map tiles on. I'll check this tomorrow.
I got 2 of the 3 warning you get (in step #8 in my list) and my image and encounter still worked OK - ignore them and see if the module still works?

I think this error is more referring to drawings on the image (using the line drawing tool)??

[Invictys]

I have done extensive testing and attempted many workarounds to get the 4e enhanced images to play nicely with exporting modules but to no avail.

Trenloe:

The scenario you described works very well, until your final step where you open the map, open the encounter, add the encounter to the combat tracker and the monsters appear invisible on the map where you placed them.

What doesn't happen is that the grid isn't there anymore causing you to have to replace the grid and adjust monster positions/sizes accordingly.

This is fine for a map containing a single encounter but still gets old fast. It becomes a real problem when using a large dungeon map or any other multi-encounter map especially if the map isn't scaled already for 50x50 or 100x100 squares but you scale it yourself using varying grid sizes.

Griogre:

I have tried to do the same thing, I use a base map and add certain object tokens to it on the background or middle layers to spruce it up or add other elements. Then I create the encounter on the top layer and export it.

What happens is that none of the tokens used on the play, background, or middle layer get exported (even if you drag the tokens to the token export area of the interface) and so when you load the encounter/map you find yourself with just the base map with no tokens that aren't a part of the encounter (regardless of what layer you placed them on even the top layer).

Also, the grid is no longer present as stated above.


I have tried various workarounds but nothing has been satisfactory. I discuss my struggles with this in some more detail in the 4e thread on the extension

https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showpost.php?p=147659&postcount=104

Unfortunately I am forced to choose between using modular adventures and using the extension.

I was using the modular adventures but the token stacking issue is out of control (I like to use spell effects and traps/hazards displayed visually) and thus I am just going to suck it up and have one huge campaign file.

Hopefully either Zeuss will update the extension somehow to fix the default placement of encounters on the base layer when loading a module prepared without the extension into a campaign running the extension (which would be a fine workaround in my opinion), or FG will update to integrate the multi-layer maps.

[Trenloe]

I have done extensive testing and attempted many workarounds to get the 4e enhanced images to play nicely with exporting modules but to no avail.

Trenloe:

The scenario you described works very well, until your final step where you open the map, open the encounter, add the encounter to the combat tracker and the monsters appear invisible on the map where you placed them.

The problem is that your description doesn't go far enough. What you will discover is that the monsters, while on the map and invisible as expected, are in fact on the background (bottom layer) not the top (play layer) and as such are unable to be targeted or interacted with by the players
I've just re-tested this and it is working fine for me -with the 3.5e version of the extension, but this is essentially the same extension as the 4e one.

Make sure that when you place the tokens (step 7 of my instructions) you place them on the play layer so that the exported module has the correct layer.

To check, open the db.xml file in your exported module and look at the <battle> entry for your exported encounter. Here is mine, note the bold entries for the maplink references - these point to the play_image layer:


<battle>
<category name="" mergeid="" baseicon="0" decalicon="0">
<id-00001>
<exp type="number">0</exp>
<level type="number">0</level>
<name type="string">E1</name>
<npclist>
<id-00001>
<count type="number">2</count>
<link type="windowreference">
<class>npc</class>
<recordname>npc.id-00002</recordname>
</link>
<maplink>
<id-00001>
<imageref type="windowreference">
<class>imagewindow</class>
<recordname>image.id-00001.play_image</recordname>
</imageref>
<imagex type="number">154</imagex>
<imagey type="number">388</imagey>
</id-00001>
<id-00002>
<imageref type="windowreference">
<class>imagewindow</class>
<recordname>image.id-00001.play_image</recordname>
</imageref>
<imagex type="number">306</imagex>
<imagey type="number">384</imagey>
</id-00002>
</maplink>
<name type="string">Elemental, Air (Large)</name>
<token type="token">tokens/air_elemental_A_01.png@Monster Pogs</token>
</id-00001>
</npclist>
</id-00001>
</category>
</battle>

[Invictys]

Oh just as an aside, Griogre I too have started using FG2 to create maps but due to the issues with the extension what I do is:

1)Create the map in a campaign with the extension loaded (so I can use the layers) using whatever base, tiles, and object tokens I want
2) Open it as big as it will go in FG
3) Take a screenshot of it with SnagIt.
4) Then I use that image as the base map for the encounter

This doesn't work obviously for creating a map larger than one screen or so because of resolution issues with the screenshot. But it gives me a ghetto mapmaking tool I find easy to use =)

[Trenloe]

And I've just done a test with 4e and it works fine too.

See the attached module as an example.

4214

[Invictys]

As I said before, it does work Trenloe, but the grid is not present.

The FG grid is what highlights enemies in red and allies in green so that doesn't work without setting a grid (making large scale encounters or encounters with neutral parties present harder to follow who is who). And if you use pointers to establish distances or area effect ranges the autoscaling on them doesn't work without a grid.

I suppose if you don't care about that stuff AND you use only maps where a grid is a part of the image that's fine but for creating maps on the fly or using maps without a grid already in place it is not.

It isn't working properly either way since a grid you set pre-export does not get carried over

[Trenloe]

As I said before, it does work Trenloe, but the grid is not present.

I suppose if you use only maps where a grid is a part of the image that's fine but for creating maps on the fly or using maps without a grid already in place it is not.

It isn't working properly either way since a grid you set pre-export does not get carried over
OK, I didn't see that you'd edited your post, removing the issue with tokens being on the wrong layer and replacing with the info about the grid.

Always a good idea to indicate where you make significant edits like this. :)

[Invictys]

Oh yeah sorry about that, like i said I did a bunch of testing and was responding to the thread from memory so couldn't remember exactly what caused what. I edited the thread within 5 minutes or so but you responded so quickly I guess you saw the initial unedited (and wrong) version of what I experienced =)

Either way, the grid issue makes it unworkable for me personally.

Edit: The token layer issue actually occurs when you load a module created without the extension into a campaign that is running the extension, which is one of the workarounds I tried

[Griogre]

Invictys, personally I went the other way. I feel I need modules much more than I need the layers extension. To me the most important part in of the extension is the ability to make a map from tile tokens on the bottom layer and detail tokens on the second layer neither which work on an export.

For spell effects I use tokens that are transparent except at the edges so they work on one layer. I have also started experimenting with "wall" tokens to let people map on the fly which seem to be working as well.

https://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m222/Griogre/DrawingScreenshot_zps8f76ca9a.png

[Invictys]

Griogre, I completely understand and I feel the same way that having the modular capability is important. I just can't deal with the token stacking issue caused by spell effect tokens and hazards. I like the walls on the fly tokens though I am going to use that for sure. I have thus far used only tiles and object tokens of other kinds

I hadn't thought of creating my own effects with transparent centers. Des this prevent the token stacking issue entirely? For instance, in your image above, if a mage created a poisonous cloud zone that persists for a few rounds and he did it right on top of the party, you are saying you place your mostly transpaent token on top of the area and yet they are able to always select themselves for movement and can target as normal?

I thought .png transparency didn't work like that but was only a visual thing, for all intents and purposes there is still part of the .png token overlaying the party yet it is transparent.

[Invictys]

This is a recreation from a recent fight I ran with poison cloud traps going off and pit traps. It looked awesome but ended up causing major targeting and movement issues so I ended up just removing the clouds and for the rest of the fight used pointers to mark out the locations of the poison clouds instead. Workable but not nearly as immersive.

The dwarf in the picture ended up selecting the cloud half the time and couldn't move himself so I had to move the cloud and let him move then move the cloud back into place.

https://i.imgur.com/YvOqnYG.jpg

[Griogre]

In FG, transparency clicks through - so yes it does solve the stacking problem. That red square in the picture is actually a spell effect and if you did drop it in that combat you could click on anything in the transparent part.

Edit: That's a pretty map. Yeah, if you used green squares transparent in the middle it would have avoided your problems.

[Invictys]

Good to know about the transparency thing, nice workaround.

Thanks, I have around 20 gigs of awesome maps (google images and cartographer's guild mostly)and token art scavenged from the internet (mostly Dunjjini CSUAC).

I think I have decided that if its a choice between modular adventures and really cool immersive fights with pretty spell effects, terrain, and hazards I choose the latter.

I just wish I didn't have to choose =(

Now if I wanted to be able to run the same adventure again later for a different group that would shift my priority the other way I would think.

[Trenloe]

Hey guys - I'm doing some testing here and I can't get *any* tokens placed on a map to export into a module. This is base testing - the enhanced images extension is not being used.

I could have sworn I've done this before - am I going mad?!? :o

The <tokens> entries are in the campaign db.xml, but when I export to a module the module db.xml doesn't contain the entries.

[Griogre]

LoL that's why modules won for me. I running three different groups now and I do reuse a fair amount of stuff - thats the only reason I can run that many groups.

[Griogre]

Trenloe, are you exporting an image or a drawing? Drawings (free form battlemaps) don't export tokens, but images do. That's really the problem with the token export in the Enhanced Images extention, I think.

[Trenloe]

Trenloe, are you exporting an image or a drawing? Drawings (free form battlemaps) don't export tokens, but images do. That's really the problem with the token export in the Enhanced Images extention, I think.
I'm trying with both images and drawings - with a brand new campaign without the enhanced images extension.

This is the campaign db.xml which you can see the token entries:

<image>
<category name="" mergeid="" baseicon="0" decalicon="0">
<id-00001>
<image type="image">
<bitmap>images/Blank White 1024x768.jpg</bitmap>
<gridsize>50</gridsize>
<gridoffset>32,37</gridoffset>
<gridsnap>on</gridsnap>
<tokens>
<idcounter>4</idcounter>
<token>
<prototype>tokens/ancient_blue_land_dragon_A_01.png@Monster Pogs</prototype>
<id>3</id>
<x>558</x>
<y>113</y>
</token>
<token>
<prototype>tokens/ancient_blue_land_dragon_A_01.png@Monster Pogs</prototype>
<id>4</id>
<x>508</x>
<y>263</y>
</token>
</tokens>
</image>
<name type="string">Blank White 1024x768</name>
<toolbars type="number">0</toolbars>
</id-00001>
And this is the exported module, which doesn't have the token entries:

<image>
<category name="" mergeid="" baseicon="0" decalicon="0">
<id-00001>
<image type="image">
<bitmap>Blank White 1024x768.jpg</bitmap>
<gridsize>50</gridsize>
<gridoffset>32,37</gridoffset>
</image>
<name type="string">Blank White 1024x768</name>
<toolbars type="number">0</toolbars>
</id-00001>

I think I'm going mad... :-o

[Trenloe]

Either way, the grid issue makes it unworkable for me personally.

OK, I get what the issue is...

Grids will only be exported with a module if they are on the "image" (base) layer. The Enhanced Images extension specifically does not apply a grid to this layer - if an image is opened that has a grid on the base layer it is copied to the middle (features) and top (play) layer and the base layer grid is removed.

I've done a search through DrZeuss's threads to see if there was a specific reason he did this and haven't found anything.

I've made a TTest version of the 4e enhanced images extension that applies the grid to the base layer and allow exporting the grid with the module. Apply the grid to the top layer as normal and it will be added to the middle and bottom layer automatically.

Give it a go and see if this works for you:

4215

[Invictys]

My experience has been that tokens not associated with an encounter (i.e. an object token not a trap/monster/hazard in the encounter/combat tracker) don't export.

I just tested it using the base program no extensions and confirmed it.

I used a base map of a canyon pictured below.

https://i.imgur.com/a2ToDRo.jpg

Then I decide to add some object tokens to add a pool of water at the top left and some boulders in the middle

https://i.imgur.com/idQg3kQ.jpg

I create an encounter, place monsters on the map and export the module (adding all tokens used to the token export box in the export interface--including the pool of water and the boulders).

When I load the module in another campaign the map does not have the water or boulders but instead just the base image used. When i load the encounter the monsters are there as expected with tokens and placement. Picture below.

https://i.imgur.com/nXf70Zd.jpg

[Invictys]

Wow thanks Trenloe! That edit you made to the extension fixes the grid issue completely. The fact that you have the ability/knowledge on editing the extension is fantastic, that's beyond my expertise =)

So now going forward I can use the extension you tweaked to load modules created with the extension!

Unfortunately I now have a few modules I created WITHOUT the extension. When I load these into a campaign WITH the extension running it places the monsters for encounters on the base layer instead of the play layer.

I hate to ask you, but is there some easy fix for this where you can make the extension put encounter monsters on the play layer by default instead of the base layer?

That would allow people using the extension to properly run both modules created with the extension and those created without it.

Either way, thanks again for the mod you did!

[Trenloe]

Unfortunately I now have a few modules I created WITHOUT the extension. When I load these into a campaign WITH the extension running it places the monsters for encounters on the base layer instead of the play layer.

I hate to ask you, but is there some easy fix for this where you can make the extension put encounter monsters on the play layer by default instead of the base layer?

That would allow people using the extension to properly run both modules created with the extension and those created without it.

Either way, thanks again for the mod you did!
I've had a quick look and the change is actually embedded in the module encounter <battle> entry where the placement references .image if the module was created without the layer extension and .play_image if created with the layer extension.

I'll see if there is some way to change the encounter placement code to check for .image and replace with .play_image or only ever add to the .play_image layer - perhaps only ever placing tokens from the encounter on the .play_image layer if the layers extension was present would be the way to go.

Don't know when I'll be able to look into this fully...

[Invictys]

Sounds like its more complicated than the grid issue.

Well I appreciate you taking a look, the extension is amazing if not for the issues with exporting/importing. Thanks to you though I can now create modules with it going forward and be able to use them properly in a campaign using it.

If you do have the time to look deeper into a fix that's great. Otherwise thanks again for taking the time.

[Trenloe]

Actually, the code in the combat tracker manager was quite easy to change.

Give this a go:

4216

This will look for .image rather than .play_image as the tokens are being added to the image map and replace with .play_image if appropriate. Thus, making it compatible for encounters made with or without the enhanced images extension originally.

the main "issue" with this is that it requires code to the ct_manager.lua script (addBattle function) so will require more work to keep up-to-date with future FG releases.

[Invictys]

Damn Trenloe I can't thank you enough man, those modifications you just made make the enhanced images extension totally useable for anyone who uses modules! :D

I tested it and the grid issue seems to have been resolved completely and the monsters are now placed on the play layer by default.

You should make a post in the 4e section with a link so that people are more likely to find it! Griogre and I can't be the only ones who like modules AND the extension!

Now if there were only a way to get FG to export non-encounter related tokens modules would truly be robust! Maybe in FG3 =)

[mattcolville]

By the way, 3.0 seems to have broken this. I get;

Ruleset Error: window: Control(access) anchoring to an undefined control (rightanchor) in windowclass (imagesmall)
Ruleset Error: window: Control(modified) anchoring to an undefined control (rightanchor) in windowclass (imagesmall)
Ruleset Error: window: Control(filter) anchoring to an undefined control (rightanchor) in windowclass (imagelist)
Ruleset Error: window: Control(filter) anchoring to an undefined control (rightanchor) in windowclass (imagelist)
Script Error: [string "campaign/scripts/campaign_list.lua"]:11: attempt to index field '?' (a nil value)
Ruleset Error: window: Control(access) anchoring to an undefined control (rightanchor) in windowclass (imagesmall)
Ruleset Error: window: Control(modified) anchoring to an undefined control (rightanchor) in windowclass (imagesmall)
Ruleset Error: window: Control(filter) anchoring to an undefined control (rightanchor) in windowclass (imagelist)
Ruleset Error: window: Control(filter) anchoring to an undefined control (rightanchor) in windowclass (imagelist)
Ruleset Error: window: Control(access) anchoring to an undefined control (rightanchor) in windowclass (imagesmall)
Ruleset Error: window: Control(modified) anchoring to an undefined control (rightanchor) in windowclass (imagesmall)
Ruleset Error: window: Control(filter) anchoring to an undefined control (rightanchor) in windowclass (imagelist)
Ruleset Error: window: Control(filter) anchoring to an undefined control (rightanchor) in windowclass (imagelist)

And as far as I can tell, there are no layer controls in v3 to replace this? I am disappoint. The ability to use tile tokens to make a map on the fly, in FG, seems not only hugely useful, but makes the program appeal to new GMs.

[Trenloe]

And as far as I can tell, there are no layer controls in v3 to replace this? I am disappoint. The ability to use tile tokens to make a map on the fly, in FG, seems not only hugely useful, but makes the program appeal to new GMs.
I'm sure that once FG 3.0 is officially released that useful extensions will be "upgraded" by members of the community to work with 3.0.