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malvok
April 16th, 2013, 02:23
Has anyone worked on getting the Spacemaster attack and critical tables into the Rolemaster Classic ruleset?

I've switched my Traveller campaign to Spacemaster 2nd Ed. and I'm going to be using the Rolemaster Classic ruleset. It would be awesome if someone had already ported the attack tables and criticals so I won't have to do the work. :)

I'm also writing a Spacemaster 2nd Ed. character generation program that will export to the Rolemaster Classic ruleset. I'll release it when it's ready so others can use it. (It's 80% done.)

After I finish the Spacemaster generator I'll do one for Rolemaster 2nd Ed. (I already have most of the data necessary.) It too will export to Fantasy Grounds.

Dakadin
April 17th, 2013, 17:57
I ran a SpaceMaster game during FG Con last year just to prove that it could be done. I just did the bare minimum to run a 4 hour session and improvised the things I didn't have. Unfortunately, it was put together for RMC v1.3 which was before I started reorganizing the ruleset. The new organization should make these things easier in the long run since I've been trying to pull out the rule specific things.

One thing that I noticed is the fumble range is associated with the table so fumbles require some manual intervention or would require multiple versions of the attack table. One for each fumble range.

I'm curious how things turn out for you so please let me know how it goes. :)

S Ferguson
April 18th, 2013, 01:01
I've also run Spacemaster 2nd ed. games over FG using almost nothing but the dice. I'm sure, since Spacemaster 2e has the streamlined tables (compared to 1e) there, it won't be hard to adapt.Mind you I'm not the one doing the adapting

Kethevin
February 10th, 2021, 04:12
Has anyone worked on getting the Spacemaster attack and critical tables into the Rolemaster Classic ruleset?

I've switched my Traveller campaign to Spacemaster 2nd Ed. and I'm going to be using the Rolemaster Classic ruleset. It would be awesome if someone had already ported the attack tables and criticals so I won't have to do the work. :)

I'm also writing a Spacemaster 2nd Ed. character generation program that will export to the Rolemaster Classic ruleset. I'll release it when it's ready so others can use it. (It's 80% done.)

After I finish the Spacemaster generator I'll do one for Rolemaster 2nd Ed. (I already have most of the data necessary.) It too will export to Fantasy Grounds.

Did you ever finish? How did it work out?

QuirkyBirky
March 17th, 2021, 09:05
I'm probably biting off more than I can chew here, but I'm currently looking into trying to set up Spacemaster weapons & attack tables for use in the RM ruleset. I'm no coder, and am completely new to FG (not thrown any virtual dice in anger yet), so I'm not really ticking all the boxes for this endeavour! However I can bluff my way through the XML code so will see how it goes, but anything more than that is going to be beyond me. Running on FGU, for what it's worth.

I think I've identified the relevant parts for the attack tables from Arms Law, plus the 'weaponlist' section, so I aim to modify and include those in a separate mod. I have tinkered with a new mod file, and early signs suggests that it seems to work, though I've got sidetracked with some of the issues below. I've also seen Dakadin's instructions on custom crit tables too, so that's something else on my 'to do' list. Heck, maybe professions, races & skill too, but not anytime soon (need to learn to walk before I start running!). I've not got too much further as I'm noticing potential issues as I go.

Firstly the fumble ranges aren't fixed on the attack tables, but vary with the different weapons. Dakadin suggested above that multiple versions of the same table might be required to get around this, and that's the same conclusion that I've come to (certainly the only one I'd have a chance at pulling off). I think the same thing goes for the shotgun table, where the critical type varies with ammo type, and maybe also with the burst fire rules (increased damage plus puncture crits become shrapnel crits).

Thresholds for Mark 1, Mark 2 etc. weapons can presumably be replicated by using the same structure as the martial arts attack ranks, so I'm hoping to give that a whirl, but different thresholds for RM ATs is something I just plan on ignoring for now, unless anyone has any suggestions (I can see this creating issues with the existing RM tables, and I'd rather not have to modify them all to include an additional 20 SM ATs).

Biggest issue for me at the moment (assuming I can get the rest working ok) is multiple crits (F, G & H). I'm guessing this will take more than just tweaking the XML. Any suggestions here would be greatly appreciated. If I can't find a decent solution to this, is it possible to just manually pull up the crit tables in FG and roll both crits? Like I say, I'm completely new to FG.

I know I'm not the first person to look into this, judging by the various posts I've seen on this thread and elsewhere, and I know Dakadin has previous run a version of Spacemaster, so I'm just after any pointers anyone might have. Alternatively anything glaringly obvious that I've missed (i.e. my assumptions about which sections of code I need to include in my mod file). I'm guessing greater minds than mine have looked at some of the points above. Even if I don't get far with this, maybe some of the questions I'm asking and any answers that come of them will assist anyone else looking to do this.

I can't see our group playing Spacemaster any time soon, but should hopefully have a Rolemaster game going before long. We've not played together for years (maybe 20?), and we're spread out across the country (and the World in one case) so FG looks like a great solution. I take my hat off (or would if I was wearing one) to all those involved in the development of, and those who continue to work on, both RMC and the FRP extension.

Thanks in advance.

Dakadin
March 17th, 2021, 17:55
HI QuirkyBirky,

Quite a bit has changed so professions, races and skills can be created within the ruleset now.

The fumble ranges now use the items/attacks instead of the attack tables so you won't have to create multiple tables anymore for different fumble ranges. Just update the items and it should work.

Yes, the thresholds should work for Mark 1, etc as long as they are at the same values as the ranks/creature sizes. You just need to set it appropriately in the items.

I can show you a sample of how it is setup for the multiple criticals when I get off work. The lightning bolt table in Spell Law is a good example. It allows the GM to select each critical individually when resolving the attack.

Please let me know if you have any questions.

Thanks,
Dakadin

QuirkyBirky
March 17th, 2021, 21:58
Thanks Dakadin. Hopefully I'm on the right track. I've had a go at the blaster attack table (managed to get a decent OCR of the tables, which helps), and I'll sort out the heat crit table and fumble tables next and see if it all works together. If so then I'll crack on with the rest.

I'm definitely interested in the multiple crit setup. I'll try picking through Spell Law to find it, but if you can flag it up (in big flashing neon lights so I don't miss it!) then that would be fantastic.

Regarding the professions, races and skills, once I've done them from within FG, can I export as a mod? I won't be the one running the game so am trying to make life easy for our long suffering GM. That might sound like a dumb question, but like I said before, I'm completely new to FG.

Edit: I found the multiple crits for lightning bolt in Spell Law. Something else for me to play with! Thanks again Dakadin.

Dakadin
March 17th, 2021, 22:26
Yes, you can export the professions, races and skills as a module.

strubbel
March 18th, 2021, 07:57
I set up a Python script that interprets csv crit tables and builds xml crit tables of them. It‘s not perfect but a nice timesaver that helped me to get some companion crits. If interested i can send it to you. Maybe it is even possible to use it as a base for attack tables building.

QuirkyBirky
March 18th, 2021, 09:03
That sounds intriguing Strubbel. I think the attack tables shouldn't take me long to do. I'm not much of a coder so I've been importing decent OCR copies of the tables into Excel (which makes it easy to spot gaps or errors) and using formulae to create the XML (don't laugh, I'm old-school). Once one is set up then the others should be straightforward enough.

I think the criticals will be the bit that slows me down since it's not just a copy and paste exercise every time, so I'll gladly give your Python script a go. Coincidentally, I recently bought a book on Python to try and help teach my son (and myself) how to use it (not got far yet!).

strubbel
March 19th, 2021, 09:50
https://pastiebin.com/60545449a0f89

You might need to install / import pandas for it to run.

The script expects the csv (separator is ; ) in the shape of having a header Roll,A,B,C,D,E and the first column with nn-nn for the rolls, OCR tables often have the 66 and 100 as singles, these I set to 66-66 and 100-100.
Not all things are covered but it reduces manual tasks and can be extended anyway. Export is an xml snippet that can be put in the db.xml.
So far, stat loss, Effects on attacker, Initiative and some of the less keyword oriented but more elaborate effects like "explodes means dying" are not covered. Conditional effects are sketched in the xml but not fully automatted, as well as multiple wound effects that need to be numbered I think.
I'm only a dabbler myself and it is one of my first things done with Python as well, so if you encounter any trouble, bugs or errors I am happy to learn ;)

Hope that helps!

QuirkyBirky
March 19th, 2021, 10:50
Thanks Strubbel. I'll give that a go over the weekend. If I can get it working then it'll be a heck of a lot quicker than what I'm currently doing, even if I need to go back over the conditional effects and more colourful death terminology.

I was wondering how initiative effects could be handled. They certainly appear to be ignored in the critical tables I've seen so far, but I imagine it's easy enough to sort these out manually in the CT so I'm ok with that.

It certainly looks impressive for a Python rookie (to me at least) - I can sort of follow code, and maybe tweak it, but I can't write it. I'll let you know if I come across any bugs, errors or glitches. Thanks again.

strubbel
March 19th, 2021, 11:00
I just added some explanatory comments since it is not only for me anymore. I would be happy to help you if something is still unclear.
Also, I am pretty sure there are lots of opportunities to optimise and I would welcome feedback. I am just lazy and think function->niceties>optimisation and stop at step 1 most of the time ;)

QuirkyBirky
March 21st, 2021, 12:30
I thought I'd better write some sort of follow up. Strubbel's code works well once you've set up the csv of the critical table properly. There's still plenty of work for me to do to complete the tables, but it has saved me immense amounts of time with setting up the structure and filling in the additional hits, stun, parry, no parry etc. effects. The tables are functional even if they're not complete.

It's still early days for me, but I've managed to put together a Blaster attack table, complete with result caps for Marks 1-5, and have managed to get it working with F, G & H crits (pulling the secondary crits from a radiation crit table). The radiation crit table still needs a bit of work, but it's good to see it all working and it gives me more confidence going forward with the rest. I'm sure the other attack tables will have their own challenges to overcome (result caps for range on shotgun, burst fire on projectile, additional crits for the next round on flamer), but it would be no fun if it was too easy!

I guess I'll need to look at fumble/weapon failure at some point. I don't know how easy it would be to do it 'by the book' (i.e. for blaster 1d10 - 1-6 charge depleted, 7-9 roll on weapon malfunction, 10 roll on fumble table), but it might just be easier to cheat by combining these on a single weapons failure table. I'll worry about that when I get to it.

Dakadin
March 22nd, 2021, 06:36
Good job! Some of that will still need to be handled manually or might need an extension but it sounds like you getting things setup which should automate a good portion of the process. Please let me know if you have any questions.

micael
December 21st, 2022, 09:09
Hi QuirkyBirky,

Do you have done some attack/crittables to try it out- where could I find that mod? I would love it to mix it with Rolemaster because I am using shadowworld where a few spacemaster guys are living togetherwith Rolemaster system guys.
Thanks
Micael

QuirkyBirky
December 21st, 2022, 13:43
Hi QuirkyBirky,

Do you have done some attack/crittables to try it out- where could I find that mod? I would love it to mix it with Rolemaster because I am using shadowworld where a few spacemaster guys are living togetherwith Rolemaster system guys.
Thanks
Micael

My understanding is that we could get into trouble with ICE if we shared these tables, since it's their intellectual property. I appreciate that's not the answer you want and it's not very helpful, and it's also why I ended up putting my own tables together, despite knowing that others had done so before me.

I'm happy to offer some pointers as to what needs doing. As you can see on this thread, I've had help from Dakadin and Strubbel, so I'm happy to pay it forward. In all honesty, the hardest part is finding a way to shoehorn the table data into the relevant tags in the XML. Once you've sorted that then it's just cleaning up the scanned & OCR'd tables. Strubbel's code for compiling the critical tables saved me huge amounts of time.

micael
December 21st, 2022, 16:11
Can you not ask ICE like Dakadin and Ardem has doing, so you can share- they can give you the right persons to ask surely-FRPG is for free and RMC is for pay, so I could imagine, that they have no problem if you share a few tables for freeand make others happy? In fact it is shadowworld stuff, because there are people running around using spacemaster weopons... I will also ask in the Discord forum...
Thanks
Micael

JohnD
December 21st, 2022, 20:05
Can you not ask ICE like Dakadin and Ardem has doing, so you can share- they can give you the right persons to ask surely-FRPG is for free and RMC is for pay, so I could imagine, that they have no problem if you share a few tables for freeand make others happy? In fact it is shadowworld stuff, because there are people running around using spacemaster weopons... I will also ask in the Discord forum...
Thanks
Micael

It may be a question of the current ICE ownership having rights to the Spacemaster content. I have no idea one way or the other but the best solution is entering tables on your own for your own use (and I have absolutely no idea of what is involved in that).

RajekPlathmos
December 31st, 2022, 18:18
My understanding is that if the book is available on DriveThruRPG you can create and publish the data. A quick search shows that all Spacemaster v2 is available as well as numerous companion and adventures see link below.

https://www.drivethrurpg.com/browse.php?keywords=spacemaster&x=0&y=0&author=&artist=&pfrom=&pto=

So if someone is going to go ahead and make these books then you can publish the tables and then, once Smiteworks approves the project, you are good to go.

Smiteworks likes it when you approach them with a finished product to publish. I currently have Rolemaster C&T II and the Heroes and Rogues books for Rolemaster V2 submitted and approved so they are keen on getting product out.

I have thought about making these books but I haven't put any time into it. To be honest it took me months to make the above 2 books so if I do go ahead and do it then it will take a while to finish. If multiple people want to combine their talents to make these books then that makes things more complicated from a publishing point of view but it can be handled easily with the proper documentation.

I've been working more on the Rolemaster companions on the hope ICE will get their licensing ducks in a row but maybe it's time to switch gears. I love Spacemaster as well as Star Strike and Armored Assault. All of these books are available on DriveThruRPG so if there are people who want to either do the whole book or put forward time with a group it's just a matter of people coming together and someone pulling the trigger.

I am interested in everyone's opinions so please reply to this thread and let's see what can be arranged.

Yours in ICE
Rajek

micael
December 31st, 2022, 23:42
My understanding is that if the book is available on DriveThruRPG you can create and publish the data. A quick search shows that all Spacemaster v2 is available as well as numerous companion and adventures see link below.

https://www.drivethrurpg.com/browse.php?keywords=spacemaster&x=0&y=0&author=&artist=&pfrom=&pto=

So if someone is going to go ahead and make these books then you can publish the tables and then, once Smiteworks approves the project, you are good to go.

Smiteworks likes it when you approach them with a finished product to publish. I currently have Rolemaster C&T II and the Heroes and Rogues books for Rolemaster V2 submitted and approved so they are keen on getting product out.

I have thought about making these books but I haven't put any time into it. To be honest it took me months to make the above 2 books so if I do go ahead and do it then it will take a while to finish. If multiple people want to combine their talents to make these books then that makes things more complicated from a publishing point of view but it can be handled easily with the proper documentation.

I've been working more on the Rolemaster companions on the hope ICE will get their licensing ducks in a row but maybe it's time to switch gears. I love Spacemaster as well as Star Strike and Armored Assault. All of these books are available on DriveThruRPG so if there are people who want to either do the whole book or put forward time with a group it's just a matter of people coming together and someone pulling the trigger.

I am interested in everyone's opinions so please reply to this thread and let's see what can be arranged.

Yours in ICE
Rajek

Hi Rajek,

I would love to have the spacemaster material (2ed, Starstrike, Armored Aussault and Privateers- the latter because the skillsystem is like FRPG/RMSS instead of spacemaster 2ed, where skills are like RMC- the 2ed because Rolemaster shadowworlds is using parts of it in history and equipment from the Essaence Lords who ruled the galaxy 200k years ago and then degenerated in a all out war, so only a dozen of the original Duskwalker lived in an Essenceprison named Kulthea Eastern Hemisphere) on FGU and buy all immediatly- especially since now are vehicles available (5ed FGU Spelljammer got this first)- so you could place each section from a starship in the vehicle and make it target and destroyable. ERA will publish Privateer soon and I found it really nice to have both systems like for Rolemaster FRPG (ERA and FGU) available, ERA for character generation and FGU for general play. But I myself have a fulltimejob and lots of others duty so would not be able to help with such a project except buying it in the end. Anyway I could wait a few months, having not enough time to inklude it in my campaigns till they get higher in level anyway.
Thanks for your answers and of course I hope you will change horses for a time;-)
Micael
P.s. I know that is really much to ask, but if you would do one adventure for spacemaster, too, that would be a blast, because most of the old material is really sparse with maps, explecit encounters and skillcheck descriptions. So it would be a blast to have one on FGU- I have come back to Rolemaster after leaving it 1999, because I was not able to generate enough player in a german city. The main reason I came back was ERA and FGU applications of Rolemaster and even a shadowworld module on FGU, so I could easily start an online campaign where a lot of more players are available which has not to live near me.

JohnD
January 1st, 2023, 01:02
I currently have Rolemaster C&T II and the Heroes and Rogues books for Rolemaster V2 submitted and approved so they are keen on getting product out.

Well that is interesting.

RajekPlathmos
January 3rd, 2023, 23:58
So I thought I'd give an update here so that people aren't left in the dark for too long.

I talked with Dakadin, he is weighing his options regarding supporting a 'new' ruleset. I give him props for keeping the RolemasterClassic ruleset going on his own so I don't want to push.

To that end, I have purchased the Ruleset Wizard and am starting to look at possibly making an extension. The Spacemaster system I am hoping to create is for the 2nd Edition Spacemaster. Not anything that came afterwards. Sorry if that isn't the response people are looking for.

I just wanted to let everyone know that this discussion hasn't died. I see this thread started a while ago so I know there is interest in it. Please be patient. I will do what I can.

QuirkyBirky
January 4th, 2023, 20:50
An extension is the way to go. I don't know what's involved with the Ruleset Wizard, but I certainly wouldn't recommend starting from scratch. RM2 & SM2 are similar enough that an extension to tweak bits of rules here and there will get you much of the way there, so no need to reinvent the wheel. The attack and critical tables are pretty straightforward but time consuming. The critical tables that I've done don't automate everything, but I just wanted to get something usable in my own game. Other tables, such as vehicular manoeuvres, are quite easy to set up too. Most of my spare time is taken up with game prep at the moment, and I'm no coder so when I do play around with this stuff, I tend to blunder around in the XML or LUA until it either works, or it all just stops working altogether.

There are challenges. If you want to integrate SM2 with RM2 in a Shadow World campaign then you need to be able to handle the differences in ATs between the systems (SM attack tables top out higher with RM ATs). The weapon 'marks' on SM attack tables don't tally with the MA ranks or Size caps on RM attack tables (and I understand that these are hard coded in the ruleset). Flamer criticals has secondary crits on the following round, shotgun damage caps vary with range. Fumbles are handled differently in terms of weapons failure, charge depleted or weapons fumble. Distances and weights in RM are imperial but metric in SM2. It's possible to sort but sometimes it's easier to settle for handling some stuff manually, or in separate tables that don't function as neatly as those in the table resolver.

I don't know what it would take to get a fully functional (or at least as functional as Dakadin's got RMC) SM2 ruleset, but getting something that works sufficiently well to handle most of the heavy lifting is certainly possible.

Rainbird
January 4th, 2023, 21:51
Rajek - Thanks for the update. I for one are very happy with SM 2Ed as I still own my hardcopies and have been hoping for some version of a SM rule add/extension to compliment the FGU RM.

Good luck with it.

Regards - Rainbird