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Trueshots
February 2nd, 2013, 19:23
Ok, I've heard Masterwork tools are an issues not just in PFS but as Pathfinder as a whole. But with that I know they are allowed in PFS, I want to know what would keep me from being able to use them or not be able to use them. It seems to me, if they are legal, they are legal....period. So I'd like to hear from you guys that are tight with Paizo, what the "OFFICIAL" view on these Items are. Below is a list of a couple I intend to buy before my next game. I have come up with names and reasons for having that particular tool. Let me know what you think.

Masterwork Tools
Masterwork Tool (Acrobatics) 50gp
Daredevil Slippers (help in tumbling trough threaten squares)
Masterwork Tool (UMD) 50gp
Sticky Handle Wrap (helps keep wands from slipping during use)
Masterwork Tool (Perception) 50gp
A Masterwork Kit for the Senses, includes the following:
~Sight: Google's of Truth (The goggles' act almost as magnify glasses, enhancing ones sight)
~Hearing: Gel Ear Plugs (These earplugs filter loud noises and the wearer is able to hear distinct sounds much better)
~Smell: 2" Cedar Stick (This small sliver of Cedar wood can be placed under the nose, once sniffed an individual has an enhanced sense of smell)
~Taste: Spice Blend (This pinch of spices when placed on the tongue will enhance the individuals sense of taste)
~Touch: Sensitivity Gel (This gel is placed on the finger tips and dries instantly, this coating gives the finger tips enhance sensitivity. Stays on until washed off)
Masterwork Tool (Sleight of Hand) 50g
Tacky Gloves (These gloves have a tacky material on them and enhances the wearers ability to hold onto items removed from others)
Masterwork Tool (Disguise)
Makeup (a small container and mirror joined by a hinge, the container contains makeup. This item can enhance/distort facial features.)

Trenloe
February 3rd, 2013, 01:17
There was quite a discussion already about this here : http://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?t=17556

Basically, your list is OK with the exception of the kit for perception. I'd rule that each of those items would be separate tools (50gp each) and not covered by a kit.

To the best of my knowledge there has not been an "official" PFS ruling, but the expanded text in the entry in Ultimate Equipment pretty much covers their use and I mention this a few times in the above referenced thread.

Trueshots
February 3rd, 2013, 02:02
Basically, your list is OK with the exception of the kit for perception.
Yea I only called it a kit because I was trying to cover all the senses that perception covers. Are you really saying I need 5 perception items just to get the +2 from perception I'm looking for?

Trenloe
February 3rd, 2013, 03:28
Yea I only called it a kit because I was trying to cover all the senses that perception covers. Are you really saying I need 5 perception items just to get the +2 from perception I'm looking for?
I'd say so, yes... But, each GM might be different in their interpretation.

The wording of the Masterwork Tool entry in the Ultimate Equipment guide is as follows, I've highlighted in bold a couple of sections that are relevant here:

This tool is perfect for its intended job. It grants a +2 circumstance bonus on a related skill check (if any). The bonuses provided by multiple masterwork items do not stack.

Several common items already count as masterwork tools for particular skills. These are the alchemistís lab, climberís kit, disguise kit, healerís kit, masterwork musical instrument, and masterwork thievesí tools. Therefore, there is no masterwork climberís kit, masterwork healerís kit, and so onóthose items are already the best available for general checks with the relevant skill.

Some skills have no appropriate tool or masterwork tooló no nonmagical item exists that grants a bonus for all uses of that skill. For example, just because a certain perfume is favored by local nobles (granting a +2 circumstance bonus on Diplomacy checks to influence them) doesnít mean that perfume has the same effect on a member of the thievesí guild, a foreign berserker, or a medusa. Likewise, just because a fake beard woven by dwarves out of the beards of famous dwarves may grant a +2 circumstance bonus on Use Magic Device checks to emulate the dwarven race doesnít mean the beard has any effect on using that skill to activate elven items or paladin items, or to decipher a written spell.

Individual GMs may want to allow masterwork tools for other skills at the listed cost. The circumstance bonus for such a tool should never be more than +2. The tool should either have a limited number of uses (such as the disguise and healerís kits) or only apply to certain aspects of the skill (such as the balancing poleís bonus on Acrobatics checks to traverse a narrow surface or the magnifying glassís bonus on Appraise checks for detailed items).
So, for the perception skill I would say that, for example, Masterwork glasses (+2 to sight based perception checks) and Masterwork hearing trumpet (+2 to listening based perception checks) are definitely 2 different masterwork tools and need to be purchased separately - based on the "only apply to certain aspects of the skill" section highlighted above.

Just like your daredevil slippers will only help in acrobatics checks to avoid attacks of opportunity, not for balancing on a narrow ledge.

Trueshots
February 3rd, 2013, 03:30
Roger that! Guess Ill buy a few more lol

Malkavian_Andi
February 3rd, 2013, 12:03
Trenloe is making a good point there.

I also have in mind an item you can purchase from the "Assault on the Kindom of th Impossible" chronicle sheet. It's a +2 Intimidate item for 55 gp (Mask of the Tiger's Eye). So if you could just buy an item that grants +2 to all intimidate checks for 50 gp, the Mask of the Tiger's Eye would be pretty pointless.

So I think it's a good idea to have 50 gp masterwork tools only affect one kind of check related to a skill.

Bloodlust
February 3rd, 2013, 12:54
Except that it's a unique piece of equipment which means it may not be covered by the "Masterwork Tools" rules and therefore apply to all uses of Intimidate without limited uses.

Blackfoot
February 3rd, 2013, 18:17
Trenloe is making a good point there.

I also have in mind an item you can purchase from the "Assault on the Kindom of th Impossible" chronicle sheet. It's a +2 Intimidate item for 55 gp (Mask of the Tiger's Eye). So if you could just buy an item that grants +2 to all intimidate checks for 50 gp, the Mask of the Tiger's Eye would be pretty pointless.

So I think it's a good idea to have 50 gp masterwork tools only affect one kind of check related to a skill.
If there is an existing item that serves the same purpose, that item eliminates the option of purchasing the basic one.

Skellan
February 3rd, 2013, 20:53
I think masterwork tools are something of a cheat and I will only take them being used for specific tasks

Trueshots
February 3rd, 2013, 21:29
Ok, one last question. Since you saying I need all 5 MW tools for the single perception Bonus. Do I have to add the 1lb encumbrance to each of them? I mean the sliver of cedar wood, the gel inside the ear, the pinch of herbs all weight merely grams or ounces. No where near 1lb a piece. Thanks!

Malkavian_Andi
February 3rd, 2013, 21:54
The 1 lb. encumbrance is based on the tool being somthing you need for a profession, like a butcher's cleaver, but I suppose tools for other purposes should have the same weight. So in your case, you'd have to find a reason for it to be that heavy, like including a box to store the gel in or tools to prepare the herbs.

At least that's what I suppose could be a good way to handle it.

Trueshots
February 3rd, 2013, 23:09
The 1 lb. encumbrance is based on the tool being somthing you need for a profession, like a butcher's cleaver, but I suppose tools for other purposes should have the same weight. So in your case, you'd have to find a reason for it to be that heavy, like including a box to store the gel in or tools to prepare the herbs.

At least that's what I suppose could be a good way to handle it.

I got you. I don't mind the weight being in my bag, I'm more concerned with the portion of it that is on my body. I'm floating at the (light/med) encumbrance mark now and am trying not to go over it. So the 5 items I have weigh 5 lbs, that's a lot for the suggested uses I have. probably 5x what they would normally weight all together.

Gwaihir Scout
February 4th, 2013, 01:44
Nothing like encumbrance to make you prioritize. Well, you'll almost never need smell, taste, or touch, so you can get rid of those until you can carry more weight.

A masterwork backpack costs 50 gold, but lets you carry weight as if your strength was one point higher. There's also muleback cords that cost 1000 gp and take the shoulders slot for carrying as if you had 8 more strength, then the ever-popular handy haversack and bags of holding.

Trueshots
February 4th, 2013, 01:53
Hmm nice points, I saw the backpack you were talking about but the weight in my pack isn't the issue. I plan on dropping it as a free action at the beginning if combat. I'm problem is I'm so weak, the items that are left must be on my body in order to use the in combat or quick situations. Ill have to check the other item you suggested but 1k gold is a lot. I'm saving my money for agile weapons and Mithral armor which is quite expensive. Thanks for the tips for sure!

Gwaihir Scout
February 4th, 2013, 02:09
Yeah, I just wait until I can afford the handy haversack myself. I prefer to get a cloak of resistance for my shoulders slot.

Trenloe
February 4th, 2013, 16:16
Ok, one last question. Since you saying I need all 5 MW tools for the single perception Bonus. Do I have to add the 1lb encumbrance to each of them? I mean the sliver of cedar wood, the gel inside the ear, the pinch of herbs all weight merely grams or ounces. No where near 1lb a piece. Thanks!
Simple answer - each masterwork tool is 1lb.

As PFS is an organized play campaign with many GMs you'll have to stick with the listed weights even if it might seem a bit over-the-top for your envisioned manifestation of the the tool, if you were playing a home campaign then your regular GM could make a call to reduce weight etc.. But, for PFS, use the weights listed.

JohnD
February 4th, 2013, 19:19
I would rule that all together they make up 1 lb, perhaps more in terms of space to carry/store than actual weight.

Trenloe
February 4th, 2013, 19:34
I would rule that all together they make up 1 lb, perhaps more in terms of space to carry/store than actual weight.
But, for PFS you can't make arbitrary rulings like that. Each masterwork tool is 1lb.

If you were GMing a home game John, making that rule is fine. We are specifically talking about how this related to Pathfinder Society games - where GMs can't make "home rules" and everyone should adhere to the RAW (rules as written).

I just want to be 100% clear on this - non-PFS home game: make as many home rules as you want. Pathfinder Society game: run the scenario and maintain your character using the rules-as-written and the Pathfinder Society list of valid player resources: http://paizo.com/pathfinderSociety/playerResources

JohnD
February 4th, 2013, 19:51
But, for PFS you can't make arbitrary rulings like that. Each masterwork tool is 1lb.

If you were GMing a home game John, making that rule is fine. We are specifically talking about how this related to Pathfinder Society games - where GMs can't make "home rules" and everyone should adhere to the RAW (rules as written).

I just want to be 100% clear on this - non-PFS home game: make as many home rules as you want. Pathfinder Society game: run the scenario and maintain your character using the rules-as-written and the Pathfinder Society list of valid player resources: http://paizo.com/pathfinderSociety/playerResources
Ah yes, quite right. Organized play needs the same rule (official) to apply to everyone.

Gwaihir Scout
February 5th, 2013, 01:12
Masterwork Tool (Disguise)
Makeup (a small container and mirror joined by a hinge, the container contains makeup. This item can enhance/distort facial features.)

I should have spotted this sooner, since I have one. There's already a Disguise Kit. 50 gp, gives you a +2 to the Disguise skill for 10 uses.

It occurred to me that all the preexisting tools are actually tools, as in things you have to pull out and use to get the +2 circumstance bonus, not simply things you can wear. I think you may need to change your earplugs and goggles into something else. An ear trumpet for your ears, a jeweler's loupe for close examination, and a telescope for looking at a distance, perhaps?

Trenloe
January 19th, 2015, 03:25
Since this has reared it's ugly head again, I will make some recommendations. As has been stated before, GM approval may vary with this...

Things that a player *must* do if they have purchased one or more generic masterwork tools (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/ultimateEquipment/gear/toolsAndSkillKits.html#masterwork-tool):


Do not include the +2 bonus in your skill entry in your character sheet.
On your character sheet detail each masterwork tool you have - what it is, what specific use of a skill it applies to. No masterwork tool covers all use of a skill.
When you want to use a masterwork tool, ask the GM if it is appropriate to use for a skill check and what action/how long it will take to use the tool.
If you have a "tool" that you constantly wear, make this clear to the GM before the start of the game, discuss with the GM and be clear/agree about the exact circumstance where the bonus will apply.


Remember that it is more than likely that the use of these tools will not be free actions or included in the usual action required for a skill check - let the GM adjudicate if you can use the tool and what action/s are required to use it.

These tools are 50gp items that give a +2 circumstance bonus for a very limited situational use of the skill. They are not a cheap way to get +2 bonuses across the board.

HoloGnome
January 19th, 2015, 05:51
Not sure if the relevant paizo threads are referenced earlier, but with the extra pointer to the references, I have tracked them down. It's nice to know that there is some official comment and support.

Commentary on 50gp MW Tools for Any Skill:
+2 Spellcraft Item? (http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2pppd?2-Spellcraft-Item)
Masterwork Tools for All Skills (http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2n978&page=1?Masterwork-Tools-for-all-skills)

Trueshots
January 19th, 2015, 06:08
Not sure if the relevant paizo threads are referenced earlier, but with the extra pointer to the references, I have tracked them down.
That second thread is what I quoted earlier...where mike brock says:



I spoke with Sean Reynolds and he advised that ANY SKILL is allowed to receive the +2 bonus per the Core Rulebook. These will be more clearly defined when the Ultimate Equipment Guide comes out.

Let me add one caveat. If people start trying to game the system and abusing this by carrying around 10 or 15 or 20 or 25 different tools, I will put a PFS rule into place limiting it to one masterwork tool per character. Please do not make me take this step. I am trusting the playerbase to use this ruling responsibly.

I personally was carry 3, far from 10,15,20, or 25. Just like on all my toon I only have a few less than 5 and they are all situational. Thats why I have 3 for perception on my ninja. one for hearing, seeing and smelling. I have one for und to activate a wand only and I have one for acrobatics to tumble through threaten squares only (that has since been replaced by my Softpaw boots).

Simple fact is I wasn't asking for the moon, and I provided ample document from very respected people, I personally don't think a player has to do any more than that.

Its not the GM's responsibility to make sure a players character is perfectly legal and heres my proof. Online Venture Captain Jessie Davis (Ironhelixx) response to me about one GM missing that I had a incompatible archetype and the next finding out it was illegal. I asked him if the game the GM (lanchery) who missed it, it I could count that game invalid ( i was assuming it was GM's job to make sure everyone was legal) if so I would have been able to retain under the level 1 provisions, but this was his response to me:


Ultimately the responsibility to make sure a PC is legal for PFS is on the shoulders of the player and not the GM. That said I understand that there is a lot of material to cover and it can be confusing at time. Especially for new players.

HoloGnome
January 19th, 2015, 06:58
It is helpful that the official references are now identified and available. As GM, I requested the paizo reference material from you to clarify this character issue at game time, since it was something that differed from my reading of the rules in the CRB and UE. You did not present the requested supporting material (would have been acceptable as a forum thread) and also abandoned your commitment to the game and your fellow players because of the denied +2 UMD skill bonus, ending the session. Per the Guide, players are required to have all reference materials for their characters and present material when requested by the GM. As GM, I did what I thought was appropriate, including asking you for the official material to help me make the right determination and repeatedly asking you to join the table. As promised, you have my apologies for my lack of awareness of the older forum threads. I have read the threads and will allow +2 MW skill tools for UMD and Sense Motive per the designer statements with appropriate restrictions.

Trueshots
January 19th, 2015, 08:57
It is helpful that the official references are now identified and available. They were always available....


As GM, I requested the paizo reference material from you to clarify this character issue at game time, since it was something that differed from my reading of the rules in the CRB and UE. I gave you a reference from a freaking VL and half the GM's that GM here! But with an ego your size it wasn't good enough....


You did not present the requested supporting material (would have been acceptable as a forum thread) I did, in the form of this thread that we are now having a discussion on. I found the quote by Mike Brock I posted in a simple search on Paizo site. It took me 10-15 mins to find it. Problem was it was already a few mins past the game start time and I know you love to argue to death, it wasn't worth the time. I've sat and watch you argue a ruling or other GM's for 20-25 mins in a single round on more than one occasion, I didn't have high expectations of anything different today....


and also abandoned your commitment to the game and your fellow players because of the denied +2 UMD skill bonus, ending the session. your fault not mine. See the thing with people that play the victim mentality card is they don't think things though...You said you made the choice in the interest of the PFS, how did that work out for you? Sometimes if you don't have an answer and can't find the answer in a timely manner you just need to trust those that have come before you and know a great deal more than you. There's no penalty for someone being wrong and no prize for being right, something I think you need to learn real quick! Plus I posted for you on the thread telling you you could play with 3 plus a pregen, something you must have missed in your precious rulebooks. So them not getting to play was on you not me sister.



Per the Guide, players are required to have all reference materials for their characters and present material when requested by the GM. In your 2 games GM'd have you ever request proof that the player owned the reference material? copy and paste from the PRD or d20 site doesn't count but I watched you do it for 40 mins in one battle a few weeks ago, all the while badgering a 1st time GM to the point they never wanted to GM again!


As GM, I did what I thought was appropriate, including asking you for the official material to help me make the right determination and repeatedly asking you to join the table. I'm not required to join the table if a GM is increasing my chances of death with a person agenda that has no grounds. I'm not fond of re-rolling characters because I can't use the skills I have legally obtained...


As promised, you have my apologies for my lack of awareness of the older forum threads. I have read the threads and will allow +2 MW skill tools for UMD and Sense Motive per the designer statements with appropriate restrictions. you were aware then, just as much as you are now... and your apology is just a formality, nothing more. This isn't the last time we'll see this behavior.

I'm ending this high school drama with the fact that if you are such a stickler for doing whats best and legal for PFS, you sure are fond of breaking the rules when they suit you. Case and point, the last game you GM's where the party level was split and we could have played up. We had a tied vote, and you said you were the tie breaker to play down. That is illegal per the organized play book(which I provided for you in the post). Its the players decision. We lost one player before the start of the game and should have had a revote, which I asked for and you denied. All because you want to have a pissing contest. You can't abide by the laws in one area and completely disobey them in other and consider yourself JUST......You simply didn't want to play up because you thought our characters were weak, which you found they weren't When Lord Kavos practically ones shotted your end boss...

And yes, when I get pissed I become a massive douchebag, end rant.

cmdisc
January 19th, 2015, 12:36
That little jab really wasn't necessary. You know it wasn't 'his' boss. It was Paizo's. So no need to be snarky really.

Second, of course Kavos practically one-shotted it. His guy was 8th level running in a 5-6 subtier. Plus Kavos is an awesome player who has awesome builds. If he wasn't able to one-shot it, I'd be asking him if he was feeling ill that day. :p

Third, COULD the party have played up? Probably. But give HG a break there. It was his first PFS game. I think all of us wouldn't mind a little slack when we're trying something new.

Where I DO agree with you is in ending the high school drama. I think everyone here would agree with that. :)

cmdisc
January 19th, 2015, 12:38
Now regarding the topic, is anyone else finding it odd that PFS doesn't allow for custom-made items and yet the rules for Masterwork Tools certainly seems to encourage custom-made items?

Or maybe it's just me.

HoloGnome
January 19th, 2015, 15:22
TS - My first 2 PFS campaigns have been fun and successful. I understand you're not happy, but please move on. I have no ill will towards you.

cmdisc - yes - it's odd and maybe partly undermines the cost balance vs. base character design, feats, traits, skill ranks, items, buffs, etc., especially in the case of skills like UMD, albeit with a circumstance bonus. It's easy not to like the ruling in its current form. Or, special items aside, maybe the implication of the ruling is that all skills should be treated equally vs. seeing UMD as anything special - a slightly different perspective.

More generally, and beyond the realm of specific skills like UMD, what is the cost and durability of a circumstance bonus and, as GMs, what exactly are we supposed to allow and why the extra adjudication burden? Risk for table variation and player dissatisfaction seems high. And maybe all of these custom MW skill tools should follow the Kit model and have a limited use (10). For example, if there were a +2 MW consumable for improving UMD for wands (or even a specific wand, in a more restrictive circumstance model, if necessary), that might be reasonable.

Also, despite an apparent need for definition, this issue has never made it into the FAQ. Why is that? It just causes endless churn on the back-end for what seems like a trivial PFS FAQ endorsement. Maybe paizo has delayed intentionally to see what data and issues arise. Who knows?

For example, they could add a very concrete statement to the UE FAQ, such as:
Generic MW Tools provide a +2 circumstance bonus, are legal for any skill check, cost 50gp and have 10 uses.

It would end much, if not all, of the debate, take the onus off GMs and players, and keep the focus on gaming experience, especially by eliminating the need to define a specific purpose, which is mostly balanced against the risk of abuse/excessive durable items. There are other things they could add, like 1d4 activation durations or d20 rolls for applicable circumstances, but there's probably no value there - just extra detail.

In terms of the "circumstance" specificity, the model that already exists is the one for Antitoxin and Antiplague. They cost 50gp and provide +5 saves against any kind of venom or disease (without specificity), have 1 use and last for 1 hour. It's great - we don't have to screw around in game with discussions like - "Oh, you have the Black Widow Anti-Toxin, but this spider is a Cave Spider. Sorry - you're out of luck!" ...and who cares anyway? They're great and universally useful alchemical consumables!

So, from any perspective (gaming, logic, circumstance, etc.) where is the value in forcing Generic MW Tools and the players who want to create them to have a highly specific purpose? It seems over-engineered and over-thought. Just make them all consumable in the domain of circumstance, and unify them conceptually with other items that already exist (kits, alchemical creations, etc.).

That would be my vote, and I would welcome them, since they would fit nicely into the established structure of cost, function, duration, and bonus type.

Victor
January 19th, 2015, 15:57
I couldn't get thru this whole thread. You guys are out of your minds.
Since when is a pair of slippers or ANY item you wear a 'tool' for a cheap 50gp and bonuses. I guess for always. I have gone with the assumption that tools were tools, did not know you could just invent anything you want for a quick 50gp and +2.
It's cheaper than cheap and cheesier than cheese. I totally agree with Skellan, if I ran games, they would not be allowed.
Check the prices on the Daredevil boots, and other magic items that give minor bonuses, then compare that to the bonuses for MW gear. I love that even Tremloe had to put "tools" in quotes.
Thats my 2 MASTERwork cents. (*when you rub them together you get a bonbus on appraise) :)

HoloGnome
January 19th, 2015, 16:09
Victor - I agree with you that, by default, they should be disallowed, especially for exotic skills, at least. Also, I think they break the existing economy (feats, items, and character choices, etc.). My character spent 800gp on a Cracked Magenta Prism, for example (but for a competence bonus). The problem is that the paizo designers have sanctioned generic MW tool items and so they now must be addressed. Otherwise, there may be a lot of table variation and/or player abuse. And, per the Guide, GMs may not ignore rules clarifications. So...?

I like your MW pennies - can I get some? (Also, Daredevil Boots are a great item, btw.)

Trueshots
January 19th, 2015, 19:35
The quote from Brock was over 4 years ago I believe. He said he would change the rule if he saw it being abused, I assume that in the last 3 or 4 year's he's not seeing it abused and that's why it's still working as intended. For me I have no desire to carry around 10 or more tools, why does my ninja need a +2 on his swim check? It would be pointless. Also remember as G.Scout pointed out if there is already an item that has the +2 skill bonus you can't mw tool that item. Like disguise kit, healers kit,etc. Btw, yes daredevil boots are awesome (even when Victor laughs at me every time I click my heels together), but we're not talking a +2 bonus, it's a +5 bonus, to moving thru threatened sqs only AND a +1 to attack on that target. IMO everyone should have a pair.

Victor
January 19th, 2015, 19:58
It's pretty simple really. You get a +2 for 50gp to any skill you want. All you have to do is invent a thing that should give you that, right?
So what's the point of creating an item? Most people dont use too many skills, just pay your 200 or 300 gp, and add that +2 to every skill you use regularly. You shouldn't even have to 'invent' an item. I mean, it hardly costs a thing. Should be on every level 1's wish list.
I'm surprised Brock (who is he? the rulemaker?) hasn't seen this abused. It's made for abuse.

Trueshots
January 19th, 2015, 20:11
Yup, it should be on everyones wish list. By the time I get 3-4 games under my belt I usually have 2-5 of these things. Mike Brock is the global overseer of organized PF play. And I think like you said the reason it's not widely abused is because there are like 50+ skills I could put skill points into. Doing the for 3-4 of your main most used circumstancial stats isn't really a big deal. But in my case yesterday I really needed the +2 umd, to activate a wand and it would have still only only gI've me a 25% chance to activate a shield wand. My AC was 10. I need mage armor and shield just to get an 18. If I had to play with a 14 AC, the likelihood of me not dying would have been very low.

cmdisc
January 19th, 2015, 20:40
There are actually quite a few tools already listed throughout the various sources. I'm not sure why the PFS heads didn't just rule that you can slap a MWK label on those to get your +2. This would keep us away from the whole custom-built items thing that will probably see table-variant rulings on (as we've already seen here).

But it is what it is.

<shrug>

Trenloe
January 20th, 2015, 01:08
It's pretty simple really. You get a +2 for 50gp to any skill you want. All you have to do is invent a thing that should give you that, right?
Not exactly correct - please read the description of the masterwork tool in Ultimate Equipment: http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/ultimateEquipment/gear/toolsAndSkillKits.html#masterwork-tool

Also, what I say here: http://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?18149-Masterwork-Tools-The-Societies-View&p=197493&viewfull=1#post197493

Spending 50gp does not give you a blanket +2 across all uses of a skill - this is very important. Plus it is a piece of equipment that may (or may not) be active all of the time, might need actions or longer time periods to use, etc..

This is where the abuse comes in - I have seen many players buy a "Masterwork tool for skill XXX" and then just apply the +2 as a misc modifier to skill XXX and then just roll for that skill as if the masterwork tool is permanently active for all uses of the skill and costs a free action to use. This is completely and wholly incorrect and is abusing the use of this item. Hence why I have put the list together of what players should observe when buying and using a masterwork tool: http://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?18149-Masterwork-Tools-The-Societies-View&p=197493&viewfull=1#post197493

Can everyone who is reading this thread please read, digest and act on the list of things to do with masterwork tools.

I have looked through a few character XMLs posted for PFS games on this forum and have found at least one with masterwork tools where the exact nature of the tool is not listed on the character sheet AND a blanket +2 bonus has been added to the skill in question - this is incorrect and is abusing this item.

Trueshots
January 20th, 2015, 02:28
Can everyone who is reading this thread please read, digest and act on the list of things to do with masterwork tools.
I have looked through a few character XMLs posted for PFS games on this forum and have found at least one with masterwork tools where the exact nature of the tool is not listed on the character sheet AND a blanket +2 bonus has been added to the skill in question - this is incorrect and is abusing this item.
I'll update all of mine to make it more obvious at what I'm doing. I know for my ninja I only ever use acrobatics to move through threaten squares, so I added it on the skill tab like that. If by chance i need to use it to jump I just typically put a -2 in the dice box. Same with UMD, and as of date I've never use UMD for anything but to active a wand. But I'm going to rework all my xml's to reflect a better sense of understanding of what I'm doing. Thanks for jumping in on this threading a dealing with this, again...

Trenloe
January 20th, 2015, 02:32
I'll update all of mine to make it more obvious at what I'm doing. I know for my ninja I only ever use acrobatics to move through threaten squares, so I added it on the skill tab like that. If by chance i need to use it to jump I just typically put a -2 in the dice box. Same with UMD, and as of date I've never use UMD for anything but to active a wand.
If you want to hard code it in a skill then create another skill entry, don't do it in the base skill. e.g. "Acrobatics - Avoid AoO - M/W Tool" then it is clear to all that you're using a masterwork tool that is specific to avoiding attacks of opportunity.


But I'm going to rework all my xml's to reflect a better sense of understanding of what I'm doing.
Thanks.

Trueshots
January 20th, 2015, 02:49
If you want to hard code it in a skill then create another skill entry, don't do it in the base skill. e.g. "Acrobatics - Avoid AoO - M/W Tool" then it is clear to all that you're using a masterwork tool that is specific to avoiding attacks of opportunity.

This is typically how I do it. You can see I have them set up for my perceptions, my UMD and my perform/dayjob roll

Trenloe
January 20th, 2015, 02:59
This is typically how I do it. You can see I have them set up for my perceptions, my UMD and my perform/dayjob roll
I'd still put "M/W Tool" at the end - you probably won't see it in the skills tab, but it will show when you roll the skill check. Because, remember, it is still up to the GM to allow you to use a M/W Tool - just having a skill labelled "Perception (to listen)" doesn't say that this is based off using a M/W Tool, the GM might think it comes from an ability/trait or similar.

The purpose of all of this is to make it clear to all involved that you're wanting to use a M/W Tool. Also detail in the M/W Tool entry in the inventory what the tool is and what bonus you want it to apply to. Then make it clear to the GM when you want to use your M/W tool and they can rule on how long it takes, it it's appropriate to use in that situation, etc.. If all of this is done then you cannot be accused of abusing M/W Tools - you're being clear and up-front about their use and not hiding it from the GM. Also this will hopefully help educate others in their correct use - be an example on how to use these properly! :)

Trueshots
January 20th, 2015, 03:08
Roger that, I'll make the change now.

Victor
January 23rd, 2015, 22:09
I really needed the +2 umd, to activate a wand and it would have still only only gI've me a 25% chance to activate a shield wand. My AC was 10. I need mage armor and shield just to get an 18. If I had to play with a 14 AC, the likelihood of me not dying would have been very low.

This is not really relevant to the MWK item thread, but what you say here is a totally unsustainable model, and if you rely on it to stay alive, you will die. All it takes is for you to roll a 1 on one of those tries and that wand is useless for that day.
I would find a better way if I were you. :)

Trueshots
January 23rd, 2015, 22:14
This is not really relevant to the MWK item thread, but what you say here is a totally unsustainable model, and if you rely on it to stay alive, you will die. All it takes is for you to roll a 1 on one of those tries and that wand is useless for that day.
I would find a better way if I were you. :)

That was just for the level 2 game, next level it becomes a class skill and I can take skill focus or even a wiz level. its was a temp fix but at such low levels you have to be careful or you end up six feet under a pile of dirt.

ddavison
January 24th, 2015, 20:30
I wouldn't personally allow them in my games unless the player described what they look like and how they work to provide the bonus. I also wouldn't use them as a player unless I could do so with a straight face. Where do the players keep them and does it require an action to retrieve the item from a pack before use? I could see certain uses, like a listening device you could hold to a wall to get a +2 bonus to hear what is in the other room. Ultimately, this and all other rules should be determined by the GM for the game they are running. Many GMs will call for a vote from the players if it seems like it could be called either way, but I know that as a player I have had many cases where I didn't agree with another GM's ruling. If it's frequent or sever e enough of a disagreement, I'll find another game.

People have differences of opinion in how the game should be run and adjudicated. The forum is probably the best place for those discussions and debates, but please keep your points focused on the item being discussed or debated and don't turn it into personal attacks against each other.

Trueshots
January 24th, 2015, 20:47
@ddavison. As I attempted with this thread 2 years ago was to do just that, make a list of items I was using and how they were being used. When the global overseer of PFS organize play says its ok to use them, to me the GM doesn't get a say so on if they can be used. Its like saying that a GM can say if or when you can tumble through threatened squares. Anyone can attempt to move through threatened squares, it's not up to a GM to allow or disallow, there is simply a rule stating it can be attempted, that should be the end of it. Same with MW tools imo, the rules state you can use them and as of today's date they haven't been banned for inappropriate or over usage. So until then, it's really not up to the GM. Another example would be for a Society GM to buff or debuff enemies outside of what the PDF states. Its against the rules, so the GM's judgement makes no difference. weather the players are dying or blowing through stuff with too much ease. Rules are rules when it come to society, thus why homebrew games are so wonderful ;)

ddavison
January 24th, 2015, 20:53
There is always GM interpretation. The PFS doesn't change that. If that wasn't the case, we wouldn't be playing a tabletop style RPG. We'd be playing a full computer game and would be bound 100% by the implementation of what is and what is not allowed.

ddavison
January 24th, 2015, 21:09
@Trueshots, I'd recommend reading the Paizo guide for GM 101 for the Pathfinder Society. It's free and gives a good description of the guidelines that PFS gives to new GMs for running games. You can't expect every GM to run their games exactly the same, even inside of PFS.

http://paizo.com/products/btpy8vq7/discuss?Pathfinder-Society-GM-101

Excerpts:

Adjudicating Roleplaying
When players are interacting with NPCs, it is all too easy to
fall into dice rolling. Encourage your players to roleplay first,
without any dice rolls. Take note of what players say and who
says it. Only when they have made a request or reached a
critical point in the conversation should you ask for rolls—
and you should decide what skill was used, not the player.
Were the players being diplomatic, deceptive, or threatening?
Additionally, instead of allowing players to metagame and
all assist the character with the highest skill modifier, ask
the player who was leading the conversation to make the
check, with the others assisting. Take note of what players
say and give circumstance bonuses and penalties for the
appropriateness of their conversation. Players may protest,
but by using these techniques, you encourage more natural
and thoughtful interactions at your table.

Enforce Rule Zero. If you aren’t positive of a rule, or if there
is an argument with a player, you are right. Generally, don’t
look up the rule yourself, but be willing to look at a page that
a player hands you. In general, a single ruling won’t change
the outcome of a battle, but if you think you’re right, stick to
your guns.

When do you ignore the rules?
Use the Core Rulebook and supplemental texts when at
all possible to create rulings. Because PFS aims to offer
a predictable, fair, and balanced experience at all tables
internationally, sticking to the texts is critical to ensuring an
even play experience for all players. See the Advanced Topics
handout for more information on adapting to unexpected
character actions.

You are in Charge
One of the most important things for a GM to remember is
that you are the one in charge of your table, and you must
assert your authority appropriately. This does not mean that
you can gleefully crush the life and joy out of your players
without abandon. It does mean that you are the final arbiter
of rules and social situations (within the framework of PFS).
Do not allow players to bully you, whether it is over a rules
dispute, with power gaming, or with inappropriate behavior. If
needed, simply state Rule 0: The GM is always right.

If you believe that a PFS GM is abusing his players, then report them to the folks running the PFS games and avoid their games in the future. I'm actively a player and a GM for Pathfinder and many other games over the last 25+ years. A GM typically invests much more time in the game than a player does. Give them a break even when you disagree. Sitting on the GM side from time to time will help you empathize with them a bit more. If they are really trying to be a jerk to you as a player, then that is one thing. If they are trying to be fair, then just roll with it.

JohnD
January 24th, 2015, 21:14
At least you guys don't have to wait until 5th level before taking out the Tarrasque... you can tackle that challenge by 3rd level.

Trueshots
January 24th, 2015, 22:45
@ddavison, I'm very familiar with the rules you posted. I don't know when the last time you played PFS on FG was but in the last half dozen games I've been in, its nothing but rule arguments and "I can do this" and "no you can't" statements. The problem is for people like me. If I GM a game it can be very bad, because I am very poor with the rules. I GM just to give back a little and not leech so much on the community, but by no mean do I have a clue what I'm doing. So I'm pretty upfront in letting people know that this could be a crap shoot for them in regards to what they are use to. There's no telling what Ill say or do because, again, I don't have a clue what I'm doing...But my experience on both sides I heavily see players not allowing the GM to have the final say. It can be 4 rounds later and people are still copy and pasting crap and typing in chat why they should have been allow to do something to a creature that was actually killed 3 rounds ago....It's plain stupid. I like a lot of GM's on FG but I have no shame in saying that Skellan is my favorite and this is why. #1 most important, the accent ;) #2 it seems that no one ever argues about rules in his games and if they do he always has a quick and decisive resolve about it. He is NEVER offense about making a ruling. Also he never allows the other players to sit and be burdened with rules lawyering. Lastly, he enjoys seeing people be successful with the characters they have put so much time into. This (other than the voice) is most important aspect of GM'ing in my mind. I can hear it in his voice sometimes, when you do a very heroic feat (whatever it may be) he's proud of you, like he's on your side. Its very cool how he monitors and runs the game, very laided back but very excited at the same time. It's almost hard to explain. Nevertheless this should at least earn me some points with him in my next game he GM's LOL.

ddavison
January 24th, 2015, 23:21
It's always good when a GM sets the tone and when it's clear that they are not antagonistic to the players, but are instead just a facilitator in a cooperative story. The games that run smoothly like that are much more fun. Arguing about rules mid-game can definitely kill the flow.

It sounds like Skellan is a great GM.

Trueshots
January 25th, 2015, 00:04
It's always good when a GM sets the tone and when it's clear that they are not antagonistic to the players, but are instead just a facilitator in a cooperative story. The games that run smoothly like that are much more fun. Arguing about rules mid-game can definitely kill the flow.

It sounds like Skellan is a great GM.

AMEN brother, preach, preacher!!!!

cmdisc
January 25th, 2015, 07:16
It's not a perfect plan, but much of the arguing can be avoided if a player goes to the GM before the session to ask for a ruling on something that is obscure or ambiguous. That way the results are hashed out ahead of time and each party knows what to expect.