SW Enhanced Library extension

[Ikael]

This is the first part of pulling some features from SWFI extension and arranging own SW extension for them. This will increase extension modularity and reduce compatibility issues. Mainly this is for people who cannot use the SWFI extension because of compatibility issues with some other commercial products. All of these features are still going to be included in original SWFI extension so you don't need to enable dozen extensions to use them all. In addition the main and rapid development work is still done to SWFI first and changes are reflected to these modular extension laterwards more slowlier. Anyways here's the first one which includes library related features:


Library :: Allow host to create new entries to existing library: When host is browsing entries such edges, hindarances, skills, races, gear, power, etc. from library, s/he can create own custom entries into the library. Right click on selected library entry list and select "Manage" and then "create new". In addition host may also copy existing entries and modify them thereafter. To copy an existing entry, right click on the entry and select "copy entry", it will make full-copy of given entry. Custom entries can thereafter be used like any other library entries. Host can also export custom library entries into modules and use them in any other campaign thereafter. To allow players to see the custom entries, remember to export your customized entries as Shared (common) enteries.
Library :: Library Module builder: Host has option to create exportable module/library book from scratch using FGII application. To create your own book go to library window and click click on left column and select "Create Book". After book is created host can give a name and category for it and create any number of pages into it. To create a page, select your book and right click on right side of the window and select "Create Page". Currently following page types are supported: List of... edges, hindrances, skills, powers, texts; Different text entry types such as normal, narrow, short, mini, wide and textlists; Any type of Gears. Host has also option to copy-paste any existing library entries from other library modules into custom created by dragging-and-dropping them. For example, host may create own book with skill list and drag-and-drop any skill from SWD Player's guide module into the custom created book. Copy-paste is supported for following types: Skills, Edges, Hindrances, Powers, Weapons, Armors, Vehicles. Entries can only be copy-pasted to its own typed lists, for example skills can be copy pasted to own skills lists, edges to edgelist, Armors to armor list etc. Another important feature in Module Builder is that exported version is compatible in core Savage Worlds ruleset without need to use this extension!
Library :: Unavailable entries: Host has option to mark any library entry or category as "unavailable for players". Entries which are unavailable are not displayed for players anymore and host will see a thrikethrough line over the entry. To do this, right clikc on entry and select "Toggle item availability".
Library :: Short descriptions: Functionality added to library entry listing which will display short description about the entry below it. In each entry list, there is new button in the left bottom corner which will show and hide these short descriptions.
Library :: Filtering: Filtering functionality added to library entry listing. For all cases you can type free keyword which will show entries if keyword is found from entry's name or from its description. Another option is to use list type specific dropdown filtering. Currently four list specific filtering is supported: For NPC entries you can specify to display only wild cards or all, for Edges you can filter edges by their Rank (novice, seasoned etc.), for Hindrances you can filter them by their level (minor or major) and for Skills you can filter them by their linked attribute.
Library :: Sorting options: Host has option to define how library list should be sorted. Currently three methods are supported: by name, by node and by default. Default sorting will can contain special logic, while by name and by node are directly sorting by entry's name or by it's nodename. To apply different sorting, host can right click on the list and select "Sort by" option.
Templates :: Filtering template update: Existing filtering template updated so that it can support library entry filtering. The current was that filtering template had function parameter named the same as the windowlist itself (index). In addition the filter control will automatically pass the filtering keyword to target windowlist if it implements function 'setFilterKeyword(string)'.

[anmay73]

Ikael

Great tool, I have been using the suzerain setting to morph all settings into one timeline. My characters time travel to all the savage settings, I digress.

I made up my own library module compiling edges hindrances and new skills for all the new settings. I can see the module in my library. However, when my players connect the module does not show up in their library.

any suggestions ?

Thanks
Grey

[Ikael]

Did you export that module? If you did, did you remember to mark custom library & reference nodes as COMMON SHARED type? Otherwise only GM can see them. See the dots in attached image

[anmay73]

That was it, thanks for the help.

Great work

Grey

[S Ferguson]

Could we have a feature that takes the keeps track of experience you've earned and break it down into 5 pt. leveling, i.e 3 "points" to spend on whatever means by which you choose? Manually keeping track of experience points sucks.

[Ikael]

Could we have a feature that takes the keeps track of experience you've earned and break it down into 5 pt. leveling, i.e 3 "points" to spend on whatever means by which you choose? Manually keeping track of experience points sucks.

I think the other thread would be better place to discuss about this, but...

Do you something that is already in Character Summary tool? It will let you know how many advances you have with given number of experience. People could thereafter easily that all points (attributes, skills, number of edges) matches given advancement level. I haven't implement automatic checker that would state that "you have x unused advances" just because advancement rules are not consistent with character creation. For example: new skill costs "2 points" in advance while in character creation its "1 point". In addition additonal power points edge is usually not recorded into edges, instead you just increase your power points.

[S Ferguson]

I think the other thread would be better place to discuss about this, but...

Do you something that is already in Character Summary tool? It will let you know how many advances you have with given number of experience. People could thereafter easily that all points (attributes, skills, number of edges) matches given advancement level. I haven't implement automatic checker that would state that "you have x unused advances" just because advancement rules are not consistent with character creation. For example: new skill costs "2 points" in advance while in character creation its "1 point". In addition additonal power points edge is usually not recorded into edges, instead you just increase your power points.

Nope. not that tool. It just is a manual tool for memory aiding. However advances happen *after* character character creation; and the way advances are taken is static. Knowing whether or not you have unused advances could mean life or death.

I was thinking of the GM draging and dropping experience points onto the characters, potrait and when an advance is available (5 XP) have accumulated, have a + appear on the character's portrait to show that an advancement is available. It would eliminate a lot of "missed" advancements. It could appear in as a + in the upper corner of the character's potrait.

[Ikael]

Nope. not that tool. It just is a manual tool for memory aiding. However advances happen *after* character character creation; and the way advances are taken is static. Knowing whether or not you have unused advances could mean life or death.

I was thinking of the GM draging and dropping experience points onto the characters, potrait and when an advance is available (5 XP) have accumulated, have a + appear on the character's portrait to show that an advancement is available. It would eliminate a lot of "missed" advancements. It could appear in as a + in the upper corner of the character's potrait.

Ok, idea is good, but... how could we know when player has used an advance? If it's manual approach he could forget to remove it and on next session he sees that oh, he should get an advance! If it's automatic, then lots of smartness should be implement to several places.

I have been using Character Summary tool for doing that job. I quickly see all points and can determine if player lacks an advance or if he even has more than he should have.

[S Ferguson]

Ok, idea is good, but... how could we know when player has used an advance? If it's manual approach he could forget to remove it and on next session he sees that oh, he should get an advance! If it's automatic, then lots of smartness should be implement to several places.

I have been using Character Summary tool for doing that job. I quickly see all points and can determine if player lacks an advance or if he even has more than he should have.

Since the character has the advances *after* character creation, when you get an advance, it would act like the character point tracker (that tells you how many "points" you've used. Once a valid advance has been taken, the point would be decreased by 1. Examplia Gratia Patrick gets one advance from gaining 6 XP. in the mini-box it records 6 XP and 1 advance. Patrick adds a die to his stat. The advance is taken off, if instead he takes another edge, the advance is decreased. This way the character doesn't get "multiple free advances."

[Ikael]

Since the character has the advances *after* character creation, when you get an advance, it would act like the character point tracker (that tells you how many "points" you've used. Once a valid advance has been taken, the point would be decreased by 1. Examplia Gratia Patrick gets one advance from gaining 6 XP. in the mini-box it records 6 XP and 1 advance. Patrick adds a die to his stat. The advance is taken off, if instead he takes another edge, the advance is decreased. This way the character doesn't get "multiple free advances."

There is a big chance that the math could go wrong. For example when character creation is done? -- If all characters would be created outside campaign that would be ok, but for example in my case I create character within the campaign and thus there is no direct way to define when character is done. This kinda feature would requires that system is aware of character's character creation stats and would compare current values to them and determines if something is missing etc. This is not supported at the moment

A button could be provided which which would lock character' current values into base values, but what if character _was_ not ready after all, because of humane error: character has seasoned edge even if he couldn't get it, or if player would like to change a hindrance in the near beginning of the game (happened to me and I accepted it when hindrance didn't have effects yet). The whole transparency between "created character" and "ongoing character" is making this difficult. There should be possiblity fix that humane error or the whole math is wrong for the rest of character's lifespan. Then again if you can fix that humane error, it makes it possible to make another error :p Think about situation where you have developed to legenday, and for reason or another you reset your "base values" to current ones. The system would be providing you dozens of advances but you have had them already.

What about situation where you mistakenly delete existing skill? The system would believe that you have advance but it's more costy to bring it back (you have to use whole advance for adding new skill).

Such method would work in, say computer game where there is strict steps doing something: character creation and playing the game. You cannot go back to character creation after you have started the game, but in VTT we are humans and sometimes we want to do something that doesn't go the strict straight line.

This feature is very much doable, but maybe would require too much effort and changes compared to its benefits. But I am open ears to hear if you could provide full set of rules how this is applied, and that it would support methods fixing humane errors. In addition it should not be error prone in math because of this flexibility. With such rules I could review it and possibly include it into request list

[S Ferguson]

I'll start on the math and other assigned homework right away.:)

[S Ferguson]

There is a big chance that the math could go wrong. For example when character creation is done? -- If all characters would be created outside campaign that would be ok, but for example in my case I create character within the campaign and thus there is no direct way to define when character is done. This kinda feature would requires that system is aware of character's character creation stats and would compare current values to them and determines if something is missing etc. This is not supported at the moment


Let's see: You'd have to keep track of XP, No. of Advances, the floor(XP/5), a drag'N'drop tagged list of indices, for skills or edges, or whatnot. and the usual character creation points. That's it. Once a character is created, no matter *how* it's created, it's done. all your points are spent. Usually, player's decide when it's done. It's only when the GM awards XP that this sytem would come into play. *Only* refering to the above. (one of which is already implemented;) .

[quote=Ikael]A button could be provided which which would lock character' current values into base values, but what if character _was_ not ready after all, because of humane error: character has seasoned edge even if he couldn't get it, or if player would like to change a hindrance in the near beginning of the game (happened to me and I accepted it when hindrance didn't have effects yet).

This is character creation. You haven't started to get XP at this point.


The whole transparency between "created character" and "ongoing character" is making this difficult. There should be possiblity fix that humane error or the whole math is wrong for the rest of character's lifespan. Then again if you can fix that humane error, it makes it possible to make another error :p Think about situation where you have developed to legenday, and for reason or another you reset your "base values" to current ones. The system would be providing you dozens of advances but you have had them already.

Human error happens in *any* system, no matter how well something is written: garbage in garbage out. You can't if you're following the rules, decrease an attribute: except due to a hinderance or age, it can't happen. If any character lowered his attribute dice that has no impact on how much XP he has or how many advances he can store. I can mess with my character now, and it will mess up the points tracker. Most character's are "finished" once play starts, then "level" with an advance. If you really need it, you could drag anrop edges/skills/die increases, from the book onto the advances, which would then appear "tagged" to the system.


What about situation where you mistakenly delete existing skill? The system would believe that you have advance but it's more costy to bring it back (you have to use whole advance for adding new skill).

Unless it was a "tagged" skill it wouldn't matter; you'd buy it back with the same amount of advances you put into it (you'd get the number of Die advances, and the initial cost of gaining the skill). If it isn't tagged it generally will be reentered by the player, at it's former value. *Usually* there's no cheating, or the GM steps in.;)

We are playing a *fair* game after all. And all "improvements" would be on the server side "tagged" as an advantage, rather than the players side, so it is fairly restricted in what a player can alter. Besides if it falls below it's "tagged" XP, it's taken off charter starting points.


Such method would work in, say computer game where there is strict steps doing something: character creation and playing the game. You cannot go back to character creation after you have started the game, but in VTT we are humans and sometimes we want to do something that doesn't go the strict straight line.

Without the VOIP, this is pretty much a Minimal MUD. It is a computer game with rules designed by people, and accepted by people; and just like in pen and paper games you usually don't cheat (at least I hope you don't;) ). You can cheat in MUDs as well; but most people play to enjoy themseles, and grow as characters. Hence the chat and OOC chat.

It's really hard for someone to *subcontiously* navigate and delete icons to getting rid of the skill. That's why the icons for deletion were placed where they were. And if they do and the skill wasn't dropped onto the advance box, you wouldn't have too worry about iit because it would be "tagged", so values "tagged" would come off XP first, and the rest would come out of development points..

[qoute=Ikeal]This feature is very much doable, but maybe would require too much effort and changes compared to its benefits. But I am open ears to hear if you could provide full set of rules how this is applied, and that it would support methods fixing humane errors. In addition it should not be error prone in math because of this flexibility. With such rules I could review it and possibly include it into request list

Don't forget that SW is an "additive" rules system, in terms of points values and XP. With a "tagged" system (which could be a table of indices of the skills, edges or die increases) the only thing you can do is subtract until you can't any more. eventually you'll get to the standard blank character sheet (well with the character's name, and whatnot:) ) And 5 and 15 points to spend (which is already handled) if you're playing a standard game. It's just a game with numbers, and it would actually benefit the system because you could now truly separate, what was there to begin with and what was achieved along the journey to Legendary characters.

This at least separates the creation, from the gains due to achievements. You could even have a drag'n'drop sytem of adding edges, skills and die increases into the XP box so they show up in a "character log," a record of their progress through the game.

[Ikael]

...
This at least separates the creation, from the gains due to achievements. You could even have a drag'n'drop sytem of adding edges, skills and die increases into the XP box so they show up in a "character log," a record of their progress through the game.

The idea of "Character log" made me more interested about this idea, For some reason it would be nice to see how each character progressed, and maybe I could learn something from it :) It's not that useful but nice to have.

Basically I consider this idea as "nice to have" overall. I still think that, despite your comprehensive description, the math still has holes. Issues I am having at the moment:


There is no liner way to calculate how many "advancement points" character has used. We could think that each edge is 2-points, raising skill that's less than your linked attribute is 1-point and raising skill that're equal or greater than your linked attribute costs 2-points. Getting new skill cost 2-points. Each advancement grants you 2-points. Everything goes well until you increase your attribute. The skill was costing X points until die Y and further it costs Z.
If character takes "Additional Power Points" Edge, they never record it to character sheet, instead they put it into power points max. The system should be aware of how many power points character would have in the beginning and should be aware of changes in the maxes. In addition, I have seen some magical items that increase your power points... it would break the math totally!
Skills has a MUST to be linked into attributes, so each skills MUST be dragged and dropped from module, and no custom creation cannot be allowed or math breaks


There is big difficulties detecting when "You got an advance" should be displayed and when not.

NOTE: S Ferguson, if you want to continue this talk more, please create new thread since this has nothing to do with SW Enhanced Library extension!

[S Ferguson]

The idea of "Character log" made me more interested about this idea, For some reason it would be nice to see how each character progressed, and maybe I could learn something from it :) It's not that useful but nice to have.

Basically I consider this idea as "nice to have" overall. I still think that, despite your comprehensive description, the math still has holes. Issues I am having at the moment:

There is no liner way to calculate how many "advancement points" character has used. We could think that each edge is 2-points, raising skill that's less than your linked attribute is 1-point and raising skill that're equal or greater than your linked attribute costs 2-points. Getting new skill cost 2-points. Each advancement grants you 2-points. Everything goes well until you increase your attribute. The skill was costing X points until die Y and further it costs Z[/qoute]1) That's because it's static in SWD. Every 5 experience points you get an "advancement" which can be one of the folllowing: gain a free edge, increase a skill that's equal to or greater than it's linked attribute, increaese two skills that are lower than their linked attribute by 1 die, gain a new skill at d4, or increase an attribute by one die. That's all you have to "tag." You keep track of the advancements and only worry about the 5 pts to meet the requirements of having an advancement. When XP is spent, it's gone. Otherwise, characters don't change over the course of the game,
.[quote=Ikael]

If character takes "Additional Power Points" Edge, they never record it to character sheet, instead they put it into power points max. The system should be aware of how many power points character would have in the beginning and should be aware of changes in the maxes. In addition, I have seen some magical items that increase your power points... it would break the math totally!
2) The edge in FG still has to be recorded on the character sheet (i.e. dragged and dropped). In order to gain those power points so just keep track of the new edge: It can't be taken multiple times.



Skills has a MUST to be linked into attributes, so each skills MUST be dragged and dropped from module, and no custom creation cannot be allowed or math breaks
3) Like I said, you're limited in what you can "purchase." The only problem I foresaw was this one, however after thnking it over you're only going to gain the skill at d4 or raise the values independant of the link but dependant on the die value. you would just have to keep track of the die type at the time of the raise, then just go to point 1,



There is big difficulties detecting when "You got an advance" should be displayed and when not.


I don't think the difficulties are as bad as you think. It follows the formula of 5 pts=advancement, lose 5 pts until you have enough for another advancement,


NOTE: S Ferguson, if you want to continue this talk more, please create new thread since this has nothing to do with SW Enhanced Library extension!

I've really said all I have to say, but I'd be more than happy to discuss this in another thread.

[meathome]

Why not simply ad an advance tracker in a new tab, like seen on the newer savage worlds character sheets? Maybe make it a bit more interactive for example, you do everything like normal for a new character and use the character summary option to see how many skill and bonus points you spent (you would only need an option to increase an attribute from bonus points) Then have a separate tab with an advance tracker where you can simply select whatever kind of advance you want (for starters nothing needs to be automated just have an advance tracker with text.. I actually use the notes page of my players character sheet for this at the moment) A more advanced version could let you select an advance or drop an edge skill ,whatever, on it...

[S Ferguson]

Why not simply ad an advance tracker in a new tab, like seen on the newer savage worlds character sheets? Maybe make it a bit more interactive for example, you do everything like normal for a new character and use the character summary option to see how many skill and bonus points you spent (you would only need an option to increase an attribute from bonus points) Then have a separate tab with an advance tracker where you can simply select whatever kind of advance you want (for starters nothing needs to be automated just have an advance tracker with text.. I actually use the notes page of my players character sheet for this at the moment) A more advanced version could let you select an advance or drop an edge skill ,whatever, on it...

Now there is a sensible solution.

[Mask_of_winter]

I'm trying to create an arsenal of weapons for my M.I.B. game. Maybe I'm doing it wrong but the "manage" function to create weapons feels a bit clunky. Can someone give me pointers on how to use this please? Also, is it possible to make those entries draggable? Thank you.

[S Ferguson]

I'm trying to create an arsenal of weapons for my M.I.B. game. Maybe I'm doing it wrong but the "manage" function to create weapons feels a bit clunky. Can someone give me pointers on how to use this please? Also, is it possible to make those entries draggable? Thank you.

If your using SWFI, create a new book (by going into the library and right clicking on the left hand field. then in the right hand pane, right click create page, create item, and it will give you the option to create weapons, which automagically are draggable.

Cheers,
SF

[Ikael]

Mods, can you lock this thread. It will be continued in the new thread (https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?19202-Savage-Worlds-Enhancement-Extensions&p=152731&viewfull=1#post152731).