PDA

View Full Version : Damn it Jim! I'm a <occupation>, not a Code Kiddie...



Barum
January 6th, 2013, 19:38
Alright.. I've hunted around, and landed on FGII as a good place to start playing Pencil&Paper games over the interwebs.
I have encountered several problems with it, though.

1) The GM (who is a Mental Health & Social Services bigwig on the West Coast) is not, nor will he ever be somebody familiar with XML coding. So adding his rule set (a bastardization/hybrid of RuneQuest, GURPS, and AD&D) will be impossible for him.

2) Character creation while "offline" is not supported?

3) Addition of existing *.JPG maps looks like it's not supported from within the program?

4) Probably the BIGGEST issue is that every online and local "help" file seems to assume that the reader is a CodeMonkey, and can modify XML files at a whim. Nothing, that I have been able to find, here, or anywhere else, has good, clear, instructions for folks who aren't CodeKiddies. (Entering, or importing characters, maps, stories, NPCs, Treasures, icons, blah blah, woof woof, etc.)

So, if I'm a tabletop gamer who knows a little html, and remembers SOME assembly language from back in the late 70's, am I (a cabinet maker) excluded from using the very promising looking software? What about my fellow players, (A chemist, an insurance adjuster, a Beer Truck driver, a history teacher, and a Planetary Geologist) who can use Facebook, and want a "plug and play" solution to our now widely geographically scattered gaming group?
Where's the love for folks like us?

Trenloe
January 6th, 2013, 20:12
1) The GM (who is a Mental Health & Social Services bigwig on the West Coast) is not, nor will he ever be somebody familiar with XML coding. So adding his rule set (a bastardization/hybrid of RuneQuest, GURPS, and AD&D) will be impossible for him.
If you want to change the automation of a ruleset then, yes, someone will need to do some coding (probably a lot of coding). But, there are generic/core rulesets available that give you the core of Fantasy Grounds: text chat, whispers, story entries, images/maps, tokens, dice rolling, etc. without automation for a specific ruleset. Use Fantasy Grounds as your tabletop with the core online gaming functions, and let the GM and players adjudicate on the result of the dice rolls just like you would face-to-face.

It would probably be worth one of the members of your group doing a bit of XML coding to put a character sheet together that is specific to your hybrid rules.


2) Character creation while "offline" is not supported?
It depends on the ruleset. Most rulesets allow the "manage character" functionality that is specifically for players creating/modifying their characters offline. The player will need a copy of the ruleset to do this though.


3) Addition of existing *.JPG maps looks like it's not supported from within the program?
It's not supported from within the program, but it is easy and can be done on the fly while the GM is running a game. See the "Adding and removing images" subsection of "Images" in the left sidebar here: https://www.fantasygrounds.com/userguide35E/gm_images.xcp When you've done it once, it's easy...


4) Probably the BIGGEST issue is that every online and local "help" file seems to assume that the reader is a CodeMonkey, and can modify XML files at a whim. Nothing, that I have been able to find, here, or anywhere else, has good, clear, instructions for folks who aren't CodeKiddies. (Entering, or importing characters, maps, stories, NPCs, Treasures, icons, blah blah, woof woof, etc.)
I'm confused - to enter characters, maps, stories, NPCs, items, tokens etc. you don't need to code at all - this is all covered in the ruleset you use. For example to enter a story entry start a new campaign, click on the "Story" icon then click on the "New" button and start typing your story entry in the window that opens up.

There are plenty of videos available under the "Downloads" link at the top of this page. The "4E Campaign Management" video shows a lot of what you're mentioning.


So, if I'm a tabletop gamer who knows a little html, and remembers SOME assembly language from back in the late 70's, am I (a cabinet maker) excluded from using the very promising looking software? What about my fellow players, (A chemist, an insurance adjuster, a Beer Truck driver, a history teacher, and a Planetary Geologist) who can use Facebook, and want a "plug and play" solution to our now widely geographically scattered gaming group?
Where's the love for folks like us?
As mentioned above, it all depends on how much automation you want in your VTT (virtual tabletop). Anyone who wants a hybrid ruleset will either have to do some coding (if you want automation) or will have to handle the game just like you would face-to-face: players and GM look at the result of the roll and decide what it means in their hybrid/houserule game.

From some of your comments above, it appears you have missed or misunderstood some of the base functionality of Fantasy Grounds. A lot of which can be used without any coding - there are many players and GMs in this community who *never* touch the underlying code but play in long running campaigns.

I'd suggest starting Fantasy Grounds and running through one of the user guides (under the "Library" link at the top of this page) - when you open a section, a number of sub-sections appear in the left sidebar (these are quite easy to miss) so look through those too. It doesn't matter that the user guides are for 3.5E or 4E (the rulesets that come with FG) a lot of what is covered in the guides is generic for all rulesets.

Then, do the same with a few of the videos available under the "downloads" link - have FG running at the same time and try some of the things yourself.

If you then have any specific questions, please ask in the forums.

In the end, yes, if you want automation that is not covered by any of the rulesets then "someone" will need to do some modifications to the XML and/or LUA coding. But, not having this automation will not stop you playing - you don't have such automation face-to-face and it doesn't stop you playing face-to-face. Fantasy Grounds without automation provides the "virtual" tabletop for you to play when the group is spread out around the world - maps/images, story entries, real dice rolling, sharing images/stories with specific players (secret note passing), multiple maps on the same table, note taking, the list goes on...

Tiqon
January 6th, 2013, 20:56
You are aware that you can just download the program and try it out right, as a demo, with very few limitations (like saving)? Sometimes people miss that and that's really the best way of trying out if its any good for you. follow the advice Trenloe has given with the demo and Im sure you will get a clear idea :).

I must admit I have some codemonkey skills, but I have not had the time and the need to do any coding as of yet. You really don't have to.

Barum
January 6th, 2013, 21:44
I have the "demo/locked" 2.9.? version (downloaded and installed today), and poking around in it is how I've formed my opinions.

Right click/left click never brings up any "add file" options, and I can't go anywhere but "GM" from the launcher, so messing around with character creation seems unavailable. (One exception, so far, is the add character XML option from the Character Management area in the GM screen)

There's no "menu bar" along the top, or anything resembling a Win7 (or below) interface.
I think, overall, that the whole idea is fantastic, but the execution is lacking.
I know that as a Cabinetmaker, I tend to assume that if I know it, then everyone else does, too. What I see as an OBVIOUS door/drawer/handle//hinge/super-duper-hard-to-make-right-feature/whatever, sometimes gets missed by the inexperienced/uninitiated.
An experienced cabinetmaker will look at my hand cut, and hand joined dovetail joints, or perfectly aligned book-matched veneer, and go "wow! nice!". John Doe, looks, and doesn't even see it. He only wants the drawers/doors/lid to open and close without sticking, or making a crunch noise. (All the fancy-schmancy "under the hood" stuff in Cabinetmaking is there to make sure the item still works well after decades of use. Unlike IKEA...)

I see that happening a LOT with this program. I need an external character generator that exports to XML, or a random dungeon generator to make JPGs that I can't even find a button/menu item to import them to a campaign I might try to build in FGII...

It's great that they have put all this time, and effort into FGII, but unless I'm an initiate, I'm not going to notice the detail. I just want it to work, in a predictable, and intuitive manner.

Griogre
January 6th, 2013, 23:03
You are not going to be able to add an image to the demo. All the ruleset automation makes FG complex but you don't have to use it. I would suggest rather than trying to modify anything you play with one of the generic rulesets at first and use no automation and see if FG will work for you.

If you do this then all you will need to learn is how to throw dice into the chat box and the GM will have to learn to drop his map image into the image folder for the campaign. If the GM has copies of your characters then you won't have to do anything but create and empty character and choose a portrait for them so they can be moved around the map though you would probably want to use the character sheet keep track of expendables.

Alternatively you might find one using one of the D&D or GURPS rulesets is easier.

dr_venture
January 6th, 2013, 23:42
Barum, welcome to the forums!

I think you're spot-on with your description of the UI not being inherently obvious. Some things are, but some things are obvious only when you know to look for them. Perfect example: it was months and months before I realized that on the Spell tab of the character sheet, the little book icon could be clicked on to change between "spontaneous" and "prepared" casting modes. Once you know it, it's easy as can be, but unless someone shows you, it's up to you to stumble around and figure things out. I hear the videos are very good and I've watched a couple, but I'm just one of those people that doesn't like using them to learn software - sue me ;)

Many of the UI symbols and methodology is not standard, and thus requires figuring out anew. That said, with a little persistence, and some help here on the forums, you'll find there *are* a lot of things in the UI that make life easy. I've found that with my ruleset (Castles & Crusades - much like early AD&D), that usually after spending about an hour with a player just running through the basics of rolling, chat modes, buttons, etc., they feel right at home and can play without much fuss. And that's all via text chat, so a fair amount of that hour is just typing.

The ruleset you use makes all the difference in the world as to your experience, as many of the more flashy and cool features are coded into the ruleset itself. So if you're messing around with the 3.5 or 4e ruleset, the experience will be totally different that the generic ruleset.

I'd like to reiterate Trenloe's comments: since you're looking to play a very non-standard set of rules, your only option is going to be to use the generic ruleset, which I'm guessing can be found on the FGWiki site, here: https://oberoten.dyndns.org/fgwiki/index.php/Generic

I haven't used the generic ruleset, so I hope others on the forums will correct any misstatements I make.

The generic ruleset will allow you to virtually play the equivalent of a face-to-face game: there will be little in the way of cool automation, but you'll be able ta have remote players & GM have & share character sheets, notes, maps, images, chat in character, share die rolls, tokens or "lead figures" on a battlemat... but you won't have any rules automation. That means that the GM will have to manually resolve all rules and rolls, just like he does in a face to face game.

Also, the way I test what a player can see (and this may not work with the demo version - dunno) is that I launch a 2nd copy of FG and log into the first version as a player - you just have to enter your own computer's IP address to log in as a player with a 2nd copy of the game.

I'd say that your best bet for determining whether the system looks right for you is to download and use the generic ruleset, and mess around with that. Feel free to post your questions up here: the forums here are full of very helpful people - one of the best groups I've run into on the Internet!

Hope that helps... and isn't grossly inaccurate!

Valarian
January 6th, 2013, 23:46
I've just added the idea for a GUI ruleset builder to the ideas website, as discussed on the kickstarter thread. Please vote for the idea if you think it has merit.
https://fg2app.idea.informer.com/proj/?ia=62512

phantomwhale
January 7th, 2013, 01:52
+1 to what Dr Venture said - great summary of the state of play.

A lot of people use FGII "as is" and it works fine (albeit with the UI learning efforts). They might start to use user-written extensions or even some of the third-party tools in time, but even without those, the base offering is still very good and "enough" for many people.

But to really go in and shape brand-new stuff out of the "clay" that FGII offers, there is the technical learning curve you describe. The trade off is this has allowed technical users to make some very good rulesets and extensions for gaming systems that otherwise would have never had such tools built for them. But I think it's understood that this learning curve will leave out 90%+ of users.

A GUi ruleset builder would create a nice halfway stepping stone - I doubt it would open up all the deep functionality of a custom written ruleset / extension, but I often see what people are after and think "a basic ruleset with a custom build character sheet would cover that", and I reckon the GUI builder could nicely offer a quick way to say "put a text field there, put a number field there" and get your own character sheet up and running for a custom game.

In summary, I think (hope?) FGII IS a plug-and-play solution for gaming groups; just stick to it's basic offerings. But there is more under the surface too, which may or may not be of use to you either directly (if your a happy coder) or indirectly (if a happy coder writes an extension that helps you out). Hopefully the forum users are helpful too for figuring this out - it really seems a very helpful community in general :)

damned
January 7th, 2013, 02:26
I also GM a Castles&Crusades campaign and here is my view:

The application is not inherently intuitive - but most things that dont have an icon down the right are found via a right click and a left click... again, not intuitive - but once you know to right click to bring up the radial menu most things are pretty easy to find.

No VTT automation is going to be easy for a hybrid ruleset. The best or most well featured rulesets (eg best automation) are probably:
3.5E / Pathfinder
4E
Followed up by the commercial (add-on) rulesets for Castles&Crusades and Savage Worlds. (Please forgive me for all those cool rulesets my ignorance has led me to omit).

There are plenty of other rulesets that offer some of the bells and whistles of these.

Bearing the above in mind which rules does your bastard <weg> game most heavily draw upon? If its D&D see if the 3.5E/4E or even C&C rulesets do enough of what you want - starting with the character sheets. If not - look at the generic rulesets and see if any of those character sheets are close enough.

In my game I make up rules as I go along - shhhh - none of my players are reading this... Some examples are critical hits and misses... These are not allowed for in the Ruleset (AFAIK) so If a player (or opponent) rolls a natural 20 I simply have them drop the damage die twice - the game doesnt automate this but it works. At the other end if they roll a natural 1 I might declare they have tripped over, they have struck the PC next to them, they have dropped their weapon or whatever is appropriate for the situation - or I get them to drop a d6 (ok, ok, I admit I like having players roll d6 because of this way cool video: https://vimeo.com/23248158) to determine which of these has occurred. Then I might take it further - the opponent was attempting to charge my PCs and rolled a 1 and stumbled at the point of contact causing him to fall into my PC - my PC then ha to do a Dexterity Siege Check (thats a C&C thing) to avoid getting tangled in the falling opponent. If PC fails Siege check he might also go down under the failed charge attempt - or he might succeed and get a free hit in on the falling foe. None of this automation is covered by the game engine / ruleset but its still all happens within the game / VTT I just make those calls and have players throw dice...
Adding images? Again - its not intuitive but it works really easily - there is a shotrcut in your start menu called Application Data Folder - open it up and drop images into the \images folder and within about 2 seconds they will appear in your Images in the GM view of FG.
Not sure about offline character management - I think there is now some support for this in the 3.5E/4E/PF rulesets but that might also be dependant on license...

Is FG perfect? Hmmm... not even close. But it is a very cool platform and does do a lot of very cool stuff. That being said there are some other new VTTs out there that are doing cool stuff too.

Callum
January 7th, 2013, 14:13
Fantasy Grounds is definitely intended to be used by people who aren't CodeMonkeys. I've run games with people who are barely computer literate - you certainly don't need to edit XML files to play in (or run) a game. It doesn't have more to learn than any other piece of new software (or new RPG, for that matter). The User Guides (under the Library link at the top of the page) explain most of the basic functionality in a step-by-step fashion, with numerous screenshots.

If you wanted to run a D&D 3.5 game, I'd say you would have no problem. However, your GM's unique ruleset does present some issues; you'll need to work out whether one of the existing rulesets is going to give you enough to play with.

ddavison
January 9th, 2013, 01:30
Hello Barum,

There have been a lot of good posts here that relate different experiences by various people in the community. As an official response, it is something that we have on the wishlist of features to actually build a ruleset builder tool but it is not scheduled to be developed anytime in the near future. You can accomplish a lot with macros and the macro features are pretty simple and yet powerful to accomplish if you stick them onto the powerbars at the bottom of the screen.

As an example, load up a new 3.5E or 4E campaign and then create a 3d6+2d4+5 macro using these steps.
Method 1

Type 5 in the chat window and drag this to a blank hotkey button
Drag 3d6 to the same hotkey one at a time or by left click+hold and then 2 right clicks to make it 3d6
Drag 2d4 to the same hotkey in the same way
Right click and edit the label to set a name for the hotkey


or the easier way:
Method 2:
type this in the chat window and drag it to a hotkey

type /die 3d6+2d4+5 Flaming Lasso Chop into the chat window
drag this to a hotkey
right-click on the hotkey and label it


Now simply left-click on that hotkey whenever you want to roll that macro. Each player can make their own and you have 12 banks plus additional sets of 12 by holding down ALT, Shift, CTRL or any combination of those.

typing /? in the chat window on those rulesets gives a list of useful commands you can use.

Some of the competition's software uses macros almost exclusively. They are powerful enough to accomplish most of what you need but not nearly as nice as when we have a fully featured ruleset. Because of that, they are often overlooked by newcomers to FG.

damned
January 9th, 2013, 08:09
Because of that, they are often overlooked by newcomers to FG.
im not quite ready to call myself a longtimer - but I always forget about these macro keys - especially about doing anything fancy with them...

dulux-oz
March 29th, 2013, 09:07
Let me just add my $0.02 worth:

I agree that the FG2 UI is NOT natuarally intuitive - at least when you are getting started. That was the primary motivation for me doing up my series of Video Tutorials for my players (some of whom are not CodeMonkeys - and the ones who are found it confusing at first as well).

My advice - look at some of the FG2 Videos on YouTube (of course, I'm going to recommend mine - just look for my channel (Dulux Oz) :D ) and hang in there for a couple of hours - that's how long I've found it generally takes even the most non-CodeMonkey to get the hang of things. Once they do get the hang of it, they tend to really be able to make the software "fly".

Good luck, and hang in there.