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Haerilis
December 6th, 2012, 09:43
EDIT: Moved from a game discussion thread. This discussion is regarding a summoner's eidolon and what evolutions they require to use certain skills.


Here's the eidolon, though it is worth noting that he has bought some skills such as sleight of hand which aren't useable without arms


If you say so in your game ok, its the GM rule , however i see no mention of that in the core rule book , neither for skills like disable devices or use magic device.

Obviously its not clear, i am not he only one asking the question :
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2o065?Can-a-Quadruped-Eidolon-use-the-skills-UMD.

IF only the bipede form can use it at level 1 , that without investing any evolution point in , that makes that form considerably superior at the beggining with a lot more usefull skills and should be mentioned more clearly in the rule.

Oh yes you could spend evolution point and put arms to the quadrupede eidolon but thats frickin ugly and i did not envision the eidolon to look like that.
Now if people are narrowminded,if characters are nothing more than a list of stats, next level ill make a very optimized 4 armed with claw eidolon bipede ,who can uses the skills AND be more powerful in combat than that poor fantasy rabbit tiger everyone hates cause he tried to sleight of hand and climb...

Blackfoot
December 6th, 2012, 15:04
If you say so in your game ok, its the GM rule , however i see no mention of that in the core rule book , neither for skills like disable devices or use magic device.

Obviously its not clear, i am not he only one asking the question :
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2o065?Can-a-Quadruped-Eidolon-use-the-skills-UMD.

IF only the bipede form can use it at level 1 , that without investing any evolution point in , that makes that form considerably superior at the beggining with a lot more usefull skills and should be mentioned more clearly in the rule.

Oh yes you could spend evolution point and put arms to the quadrupede eidolon but thats frickin ugly and i did not envision the eidolon to look like that.
Now if people are narrowminded,if characters are nothing more than a list of stats, next level ill make a very optimized 4 armed with claw eidolon bipede ,who can uses the skills AND be more powerful in combat than that poor fantasy rabbit tiger everyone hates cause he tried to sleight of hand and climb...Unfortunately.. or fortunately (depending how you look at it) ... PFS rules are pretty structured.
If you are required to buy hands in order for your critter to use certain skills.. you are required to buy hands. There are tradeoffs in the different eidolon types... different 'built in' benefits. You can skin it in a variety of different ways.. as long as the functions don't change... if I understand the rules correctly.

Haerilis
December 6th, 2012, 16:51
Unfortunately.. or fortunately (depending how you look at it) ... PFS rules are pretty structured.
If you are required to buy hands in order for your critter to use certain skills.. you are required to buy hands. There are tradeoffs in the different eidolon types... different 'built in' benefits. You can skin it in a variety of different ways.. as long as the functions don't change... if I understand the rules correctly.


Being a quad base form doesn't mean you couldn't have fine manipulation. Some animals have prehensile digits on their feet (apes) and dragons have always had fine manipulation with their claws as far as I know (old draconomicons etc.). Unless you put something like hooves on a particular set of limbs I would be hard pressed to see why it couldn't be done with them.

sorry mate this is pathfinder society not a freeform game. eidolons do not have bodyform restrictions on skill use in the pathfinder society rules. Unless you can point them out then you really shouldnt be forcing me to pick a humnanoid eidolon just for the sake of fluff

we can debate all day about the presence or absence of prehensile paws on a quadruped, but this is pathfinder, not a lecture on zoology. There are balance reasons that require eidolons of any form to be able to use skills. If you interfere with this, and you do so against the instructions of the Society, then you force the use of a bipedal eidolon. Which is already in itself inherently stronger.

Blackfoot
December 6th, 2012, 17:02
Trying to find the rules for this one way or another.. not so much as it relates to your character but in an effort to better understand the class in general... here's what I've found so far:


Skills: This lists the eidolon's total skill ranks. An eidolon can assign skill ranks to any skill, but it must possess the appropriate appendages to use some skills. Eidolons with Intelligence scores above the base value modify these totals as normal (an eidolon receives a number of skill ranks equal to 6 + its Intelligence modifier per HD). An eidolon cannot have more ranks in a skill than it has Hit Dice. Eidolon skill ranks are set once chosen, even if the creature changes when the summoner gains a new level.
So ... it sounds like if the skill requires 'hands' ... the critter must have hands. A bunny without hands can't pick a lock... a bunny with hands can pick locks.

Quadruped

Starting Statistics: Size Medium; Speed 40 ft.; AC +2 natural armor; Saves Fort (good), Ref (good), Will (bad); Attack bite (1d6); Ability Scores Str 14, Dex 14, Con 13, Int 7, Wis 10, Cha 11; Free Evolutions bite, limbs (legs) (2).So the only 'free evolutions' they get are BITE and LIMBS (LEGS).. no arms ..


Limbs (Ex): An eidolon grows an additional pair of limbs. These limbs can take one of two forms. They can be made into legs, complete with feet. Each pair of legs increases the eidolon's base speed by 10 feet. Alternatively, they can be made into arms, complete with hands. The eidolon does not gain any additional natural attacks for an additional pair of arms, but it can take other evolutions that add additional attacks (such as claws or a slam). Arms that have hands can be used to wield weapons, if the eidolon is proficient. This evolution can be selected more than once.Legs get movement speed.. arms get hands... there's the tradeoff I was talking about in my previous post.

Tinculin
December 6th, 2012, 18:24
This discussion is probably best in a thread/forum of its own rather than here which is about a scenario.

Generally speaking, a quadraped does not have hands to perform fine manipulation, the ape discussion is mute as while quadrapeds, they have 2 arms and 2 legs, not 4 legs(which a quadraped Eidalon must have).

The rules specifically state under Eidalon that: "it must possess the appropriate appendages to use some skills."

I beleve that this makes it quite clear that some skills will necessitate that an Eidalon has arms to perform certain skills (otherwise they wouldn't of written this).

Those skills are going to include anything that require someone to manipulate an item - a chimpanzee doesn't peel a banana with it's feet, it does it with its hands. A cow, dog or your average quadraped with 4 legs can't peel a banana, likewise they can't pick locks, or pockets or disarm traps or wield swords etc.

To resolve this, all that is required is to make your Eidalon a biped or leave it as a quadraped and have it evolve arms.

There are always going to be times that a GM has to make a call for rules that are ambiguous, not covered or just don't fit. I know at least 3 GM's from this community have expresses the same ruling which makes me think that there is a majority consenus on this issue.

Haerilis
December 6th, 2012, 21:17
Trying to find the rules for this one way or another.. not so much as it relates to your character but in an effort to better understand the class in general... here's what I've found so far:


So ... it sounds like if the skill requires 'hands' ... the critter must have hands. A bunny without hands can't pick a lock... a bunny with hands can pick locks.
So the only 'free evolutions' they get are BITE and LIMBS (LEGS).. no arms ..

Legs get movement speed.. arms get hands... there's the tradeoff I was talking about in my previous post.



Ok i get your point, but thats an hell of a tradeoff at level 1, 10 speed more vs Disable device, sleight of hand, UMD, ride, etc.. Add to that an easier way to equip your eidolon, as i suppose you could custom craft a quadruped ,some barding, while a medium sized humanoid could just grab anything he wants in a scenario, use a belt of ogre strengh ,rings, whatever equipment he fancies.

That said ive seen some more odditiesint he pathfinder advanced guide, for example how a gunslinger is viable in society with 150 starting gold . Even with the reduced prices, the cost of his ammo, black powder , pellets and guns(yes you get a starting one but still ),makes it extremely costly to go dungeoneering, i would think twice before shooting . Or a cavalier without mount, as i dont see them being usable in any scenario whe played.

Trenloe
December 6th, 2012, 22:48
That said ive seen some more odditiesint he pathfinder advanced guide, for example how a gunslinger is viable in society with 150 starting gold . Even with the reduced prices, the cost of his ammo, black powder , pellets and guns(yes you get a starting one but still ),makes it extremely costly to go dungeoneering, i would think twice before shooting . Or a cavalier without mount, as i dont see them being usable in any scenario whe played.
Yeah, there are plenty of trade-offs with many character builds - usually involving limiting certain aspects of powerful classes. Gunslingers can be devastating but, as you note, their ammunition is costly. Cavaliers when using their mounts can be very effective - but are limited by where they can take their mounts (you'll see a few halfling/gnome cavaliers on medium sized mounts for this reason). Alchemists with their bombs can own encounters - but if they can't throw accurately (out of range, too much cover, etc.) they are severely restricted.

If you specialise, everything has a tradeoff. But, the tradeoffs don't always add up when comparing across classes/archtypes/special abilities/etc.

Blackfoot
December 6th, 2012, 23:09
It is definitely true that all things are not equal... but some things feel cooler than others so we accept certain tradeoffs that aren't necessarily the best. (see my Gimpy characters thread)
There's nothing to stop you from building your bunny as a biped with little arms and hands... something like a raccoon... an excellent hopper... you can even buy him an evolution that lets him hop better I'm sure.
You have the option to give your guy a full refit before you play again at level 2 if you aren't happy with the way he feels.