A irritated note about (what should be) common courtesy...

[dr_venture]

Folks, if you've signed up for a game and are unable to continue for any reason, it's common courtesy to simply tell the GM. If you just disappear, well, that's not very nice.

In the past few months, I have spent hours and hours and hours on new players to get them an account on my Obsidian Portal site, discuss character options, arrange multiple session times just for them, roll up their characters... and in a few cases walk them through Fantasy Grounds itself step by step, teaching them the finer points of using the app... also in several cases set up and run entire intro sessions to give them a feel for the ruleset and bring that character into the game in a way that gives them a purpose... only to have the player simply disappear without a word of warning or explanation, or even a 'thank you.' I've just donated maybe 10 hours of my time to be generous and get them rolling in our community and in my game, and they basically flip me the bird behind my back and walk off. This has now happened at least 5 or 6 times in the past few months.

So I wind up, like now, with groups that are just into a story, and I have no idea of who is playing and who has just left without notice, or has a genuine real-world problem... I can't even schedule a session or figure out who's in and who's out.

I've almost sworn off even running any more games in this community... a horrible investment of my time. The folks contributing to the forum are great, but those aren't the ones playing in my games (and the few who have done so were good about communication, and the experience was a positive one... I'm not talking about you guys).

I can only assume that people do this because they just figure they can slip out without being noticed much... it's easy for them, and they don't think it's a big deal for me, if they think about it at all. Please be advised that it's not that simple in many cases... you really screw things up for others when you just decide to leave without telling anyone.

There was talk about a rating system for GMs and Players at one point... I thought it was a bad idea at the time, as it's such a subjective thing... but I sure wish there was a way to tell which players I should dedicate the time to, and which players are a total waste of my time. I'd like to just know which players will show common courtesy both when it's convenient to them and when it puts them out a tiny bit.

I also can see the usefulness in matching GMs and players by their style, as I have had a few players who have abruptly left on me (at least with notice) for unexplained reasons, so I assume that our styles just don't match. It would be nice for everyone involved to be able to know what they were getting into.

Heck, maybe this is all due to the fact that I'm just not a very good GM! I'd be very disappointed to hear it, but I'd rather actually know about it than waste my time an endless conveyor belt of unreliable players.

[JohnD]

Fair comments... preaching to the choir. Frustrations I share to a large extent.

I've found so far that for every 4 new players I try to bring into my 3.5e campaign, on average 3 of them end up being a "one-hit wonder". Occasionally I've even had people who never actually show up even the first time (go figure that one out).

Sometimes these dropouts happen because you get people with the demo version (in my case at least with an Ultimate license) who don't really know what they're getting into, and then deciding either FG itself or my game style in particular isn't for them. This is where the courtesy of a quick FYI is sadly lacking. As you said, I suppose it's possible I'm a garbage DM... but after 30ish years of experience, I've developed a bit of self confidence in this area.

In retrospect, I probably would/should have bought a Full License instead of an Ultimate, which would mean anyone playing has more inherent "skin" in the game because they've at least paid for a Lite license.

Right now I seem to have attracted a solid group of players (thanks everyone!)... but the amount of churn its taken to get to this point is amazing.

[Griogre]

Dr_Venture, unfortunately you have found the seedy underbelly of Internet play. The anonymous nature means many players, and GMs too, just walk away from games with no notice. It's not just you - anyone who runs a long-running game or even organized play will have very jaded views about the effects of player anonymity. I'm sorry, you had a rotten experience, but its not just you. Everyone who runs will have drop outs. I had one in a game a few weeks ago. That's the bad news.

The good news is that I've been playing for more than 5 years with people who have shown up consistently and I consider many to be friends. The dirty secret is simple, the Internet is a very large pool of players compared to that available in most local areas. If you churn through that pool long enough you *will* find players that match your GMing style, fit in with the group, and show up on time.

You can do two things that will help with your frustration:

1) Back end you player help. Sure you have to help new players set up characters and you probably might want to work their characters into the ongoing game's story line, but you should work them in over time knowing that most new players if they are going to drop out are going to drop out with in their first few sessions.

2) Let players self select. I use to go to a lot of gaming conventions and one thing I learned was letting players decided or not, without pressure, if they wanted wanted to be in your game was less stressful for both parties.

What I mean is tell players enough about your game so if they are interested they come to you to play. Your goal is to filter out player who are not going to enjoy your game and you do this by letting them know enough about your game so they can make a reasonable choice. As an example for you western game you might post something like the following to find prospective players:

Western Game using C&C and Boot Hill rules, Home brewed. Text only game, no audio chat. Game is every second Tuesday at such and such a time local and GMT time zones and we play X hours. You must join my Obsidian Portal group to get in between game updates. The mix of roleplaying to combat is about half and half.

You will still get drop outs but they will be fewer and over time you will build a solid group in the games you run and your turn over will lessen. You will still get people that have to drop out due to "real" life but they will tell you when they have to quit - and some will come back too. When I do have openings these days many are filled by former player's who have become available again.

[JohnD]

One way to avoid the front loading of work associated with adding a new person is to have already established characters that a new person could play for the first few games, after which if your mutual assessment is working out, they could develop their own personal PC (and the NPC goes back into the casual pool).

I personally have no issue with someone wanting to play one game session in a casual manner; just make it clear that's what you want.

I wonder if the PFS games suffer from this given that almost all of them are designed to be one-off games of 4-5 hours in length. Easier to schedule to and significantly less commitment than an ongoing game.

[GunnarGreybeard]

Encountered similar here. I have far more patience for the "one game then they are out for whatever reason" players than the ones who PM you and sign up, then don't show, for even the 1st session.

[dr_venture]

Interesting responses - thanks, all. Makes it pretty hard to even put a game together. So far, as of right now, in more than 14 players that have signed up for either of my games, I have 1 dedicated long-term player. I don't even know how I'm supposed to run a game long-enough to build up a following of dedicated players (other than tiny adventures with lots of NPCs). I'm just whining, as there' nothing anyone can do about it - there is either interest or there isn't.

I've been thinking about some of the suggestions offered here, and seeing others suggest the same thing seems like some validation. I think the short term changes will be that I have to have player email addresses that get checked regularly (using OP is way more convenient, but it seems like a loose end as to whether those messages get through); at least a session spent playing an NPC so the player can get an idea if they're interested, and I can see if they flake between sessions; some kind of '3-strikes' like auto-eject process... and $1,000 deposited in an escrow account which reverts to the player only after 3 successive game sessions. Well maybe not the first 3...

[Trenloe]

I wonder if the PFS games suffer from this given that almost all of them are designed to be one-off games of 4-5 hours in length. Easier to schedule to and significantly less commitment than an ongoing game.
The only real thing the PFS gaming suffers from is no-shows - which so far have been low.

Yes, we get some who play one-or-two games and then don't play again - but that is fine, the games don't suffer as each one is a one-off. This is the beauty of organized play.

The downside is that you are not playing in a single campaign with the same underlying storyline and more roleplaying/character development (in terms of background and story telling).

Given the choice, I think the majority of us would like to play in one or two regular campaigns with the same group and develop the story and characters as we go. But, that is not always possible, so PFS gives us our gaming fix without any long term commitment from players or GMs, allows players to develop the same character (experience wise) or try different character builds - and also gets us to meet lots of new gamers (which can be good, and can sometimes be...). ;)

[phantomwhale]

For what it's worth, having moved to a new city last year, I now run an "open RPG night" every week.

People often come along, pay in a game, say "yeah that was great" and don't reappear the following week (or ever again). The internet makes this behaviour easier, but it will happen in face-to-face games again.

Building up the solid group has happened eventually - I generally find I've had to do this by running quite a light commitment drop in (for me and them) and those who come back I've spent a little more time with.

[unerwünscht]

Real life happens, and sometimes things stack up and several sessions get dropped. I have actually found this to be very useful to me as I know ahead of time that every 3-5 months something will come up and I will have to cancel 2 - 4 games in a row. I almost always let my players know ahead of time that this is going to happen.

Here is where things get complicated but work out for the best in the end. I know from years of having this happen that typically it will be the end of that game. But from time to time, one or two of the players will keep in contact with me, and those players get invited to the next game. Pretty soon I have a full group of players that will stick together through thick and thin.

The downside, eventually something will happen in one of their lives, and the entire group will break, and I have to start the entire process over again. But that is life.

And on that note, I will be recruiting players again in the near future.

[JohnD]

Really, if you have a reliable cluster or even just 2or 3 players, you can make that a viable gaming group.

Occasionally bring someone in to play the house NPC (in my case this seems to be a Cleric) to try it out before donating any more of your time to his entertainment.

[damned]

i agree - it is hard and disheartening when players do this, especially when lots of players do this.

what can you do?
1st - stop investing 10hrs per new player. write up a little blurb about your game and all the setup - eg you use hamachi and fantasy grounds
2nd - dont role up new characters for the new players - let them use an existing character whose player isnt there tonight - you can always resuurect him if the player turns out to be a jerk and plays him stupidly. if they play two sessions then let them roll up their own
3rd - only give them a 30-60min intro just prior to the game - I try to limit to 30mins but doing it with voice is a lot easier to explain stuff.

what could you be doing wrong?
1. i think chat only has its devotees - but most players are looking for faster - eg voice.
2. the pool of players looking for WW and C&C is a lot smaller then 4E and Pathfinder...

I go thru stages where my players slowly drop out and I think for me its been a combintion of time of play and also inexperience at keeping the game moving as GM. I can see the big picture and where I want things to go but sometimes I put too much in the way or arent generous enough with magic stuff or i over complicate things...
But I do hate when players dont respond to email, dont show up, dont let you know they will miss your session etc etc...
as a GM you do spend a LOT of time getting stuff ready for people who dont really care... :(

[bennis1980]

I've been GMing on FG almost every week since the summer, and luckily have 3 regular players out of the five original. Only one person has done this to me - ironicly the person who warned me about such behaviour. I was a bit annoyed/hurt by this and questioned my style (that said - I got over it with thanks to my regulars)

I agree that posting as much about your game and style is the way to attract the right players. I also remind everyone about the game calendar at the end of a session (when a new player starts) and always encourage feedback, good or bad.

I think the Fantasy Grounds community should be actively promoting courtesy, not only on the forums but once you sign up for a game also (and when you leave).

I have only recently got my ultimate licence and that was an interesting point about demo licences and lack of commitment. Maybe Smiteworks could add a little pop-up message for demo licences at application startup, not necessarily to encourage people to buy the lite or full, but to remind players of courtesy when you can't make a game.

my 2 cents!


This isn't like regular online gaming as it requires lots of effort from the GM - so we shouldn't accept / normalise such lack of courtesy.

[JohnD]

I will echo sentiments supporting email as a primary mode of communication. The first thing I do is ask for an email address... if someone doesn't want to provide one, they go to the bottom of my list for inclusion.

PMs suck quite frankly (IMO) and the campaign page messages are nice, but really they only work for your hard core people who are the ones you can rely on anyways.

I send out a post-game thank you email to my group; including anyone who didn't make it. This is positive reinforcement for those who did attend, and a reminder to those who didn't. In this email I also usually mention when I think the next game will be, and ask for feeback if there is more than one option.

I send out another email when I've actually posted the game on the campaign page here on the FG website.

I send out a reminder email a day or two ahead of game day... usually I note how many have responded that they will be present. If the game is in danger of not running (my rule is 50% +1) I say so.

Sometimes I send out a "Server's Up!" email about 10 minutes after the posted start time if turnout is low. Usually this gets you a couple of people who were planning on playing, but just had the time get away on them.

If after all this, someone goes 0 for 3 on attendance (usually this spans 4 to 6 weeks of real time), I know there's been so many touch points, that I can remove them from the list (because they've already removed themselves... they just didn't think enough of their fellow players and/or DM to take 30 seconds and send a short email).

I've found this approach works well.

[Gadreun]

I feel for you guys DMing games that have people just 'vanish' - i think the main reason is that many people have so many gaming choices out there and they often are used to flitting in and out without due consideration of the time and effort it takes to set these up AND the disruption to group dynamics and the storytelling aspects of RPGs.

I had to think long and hard about joining Willots game which is my Sunday 11am-3pm - i had to think ahead about in 6 months will i want to be doing this on my sunday afternoon?

I think the modern gamer tends to be a lot more fickle than us older participants - i think that comes down to our commitment to the genre, the style of roleplaying (ie pen and paper conversion to a virtual table top) as opposed to the myriad of game choices out there and other life choices that arise.


I think when i eventually GM/DM it will be with people i have come to know, who share a bond around the game and thru friendships built over gaming sessions.

I think what the OP is doing in attempting to 'grow the game' is admirable and commendable but with new players there will always be a high risk of this occurring.

That is why i think the Pathfinder Society games are an absolute boon.

It allows newbies to experience what pathfinder has to offer without 'locking' themselves into premature commitments before realising that its not just their game time but shared game time.

I would only consider offering ongoing gaming positions to long time players or those who show an intense interest in these style of games.

That all being said there is never a good enough excuse for just 'disappearing' without so much as a word to the DM.

[dr_venture]

Many thanks for all the responses - some very interesting stuff, lots of ideas I'll give a whirl.

I think the first thing I'm going to do is just to make sure new players understand that their disappearing without notice is a real problem for GMs. I think that most of them just don't think about it, or realize that it's a big problem in virtual P&P games as opposed to other online games they might be much more familiar with, like WoW, etc. I suspect that a fair number of folks will at least think twice about joining or leaving a game in a flippant manner, as I think most folks around here are fairly nice people.

[leozelig]

dr_v, consider taking a break for a few weeks or a couple months. Virtual players are flaky more often than not. It's the nature of the internet as Griogre said.

My solution was to change from a long-term plot-heavy campaign to a series of one-off adventures. One adventure might last a month, or it might last several weeks. We adventure for the sake of adventuring. When one adventure is over, we replenish our numbers and move on to the next.

[unerwünscht]

dr_v, consider taking a break for a few weeks or a couple months. Virtual players are flaky more often than not. It's the nature of the internet as Griogre said.

My solution was to change from a long-term plot-heavy campaign to a series of one-off adventures. One adventure might last a month, or it might last several weeks. We adventure for the sake of adventuring. When one adventure is over, we replenish our numbers and move on to the next.

I have found this to be the best way to go when working with new players. This way no one is completely crushed if a game falls through, and it is simple to recover from.

[dr_venture]

Unfortunately, I have yet to get to that point of having a normal session of any type whatsoever... managed 1 session with 2 players. As per the norm, my latest 2 players, after showing a fair amount of interest and communication, haven't been heard from for 4 or 5 days now that I'm trying to nail down a game date/time. This brings me back to exactly 0 players. So my expectations are essentially nil at this point. Also, it just happens that right now there are 2 other Greyhawk campaigns fishing for players, so I'm sure that doesn't help. I figure I'll wait a few weeks to see if the current players reappear, give other campaigns a chance to fill up, then see how interested I am in continuing with a more open potential game schedule.

The only reason the Old West game works is that it lends itself well to 1 or 2 player gaming, and the player is very courteous about communicating and planning.

It may be the simple reality is that there just aren't people interested in my combination of game and system. It just is what it is. I wouldn't be so irritated by it all if I hadn't had to go through so much work and gyrations on behalf of players who showed more than passing interest then basically just blew me off at the worst of times.

So, lesson(s) learned, I think: I'm asking more questions to those who express interest, and setting my expectations sadly low. I'll be pleasantly surprised when they pleasantly surprise me... which won't be hard... I'm just looking for common courtesy.

[Draeus]

I run 2 games a week soon to open a third. I find that I get a base of 5 players that are regular and the others come and go as real life issues.interfere with their gameplay. I have been lucky that they all have come forward and said reasons for not playing. Some stay and join our community joining in other players fg games and mmo's others dissapear altogether.

It has taken us almost a year to build up our player base and fingers cross the players and gms keep on coming.

Its always sad to see a player leave :)

Also ... I hate typing on this poxy phone! Lol

[damned]

i wonder if the chat aspect also makes it easier for your prospective players to leave? they havent even heard your dulcet tones - you are just someone in a chat room that they can drop in and out of at will...?
my campaign may be one of those Greyhawk campaigns you mentioned... tbh im not really actively recruiting - I have 6 players - 5 of which were recruited from outside FG - but from past experience I know there will be drop outs so Im just gauging interest. What I have suggested to the two that expressed an interest (although I now think 1 request was intended for JohnD) is that they play one of the characters whose player isnt available that session... easy to drop in for a single session and they can even help keep the game moving forward :)
Have you tried advertising your game with a local gaming group or meetup group or on other websites liek penandpapergames.com or enworld.org?

[Griogre]

As per the norm, my latest 2 players, after showing a fair amount of interest and communication, haven't been heard from for 4 or 5 days now that I'm trying to nail down a game date/time. This brings me back to exactly 0 players. So my expectations are essentially nil at this point.
Dr_Venture, its my experience that for long term games - a fixed time and date work better if you can swing it. If you players know the game is always at the same day and time then it makes it easier to plan for and they get into the habit of showing up.

That's the problem with all those posts that say: This is an interest check for Whatever Game System. People will tell you they are interested but when it comes time to actually set the date and time to play you lose half of them since the date and time doesn't work for them. You can save them and yourself a fair amount of wasted time by just saying what date or time up front and let them self select.

[bennis1980]

Regardless of the different methods for retaining players, it is still annoying when a player disappears without a trace without even a john dear letter.

EDIT: All very good pieces of advice mind you

[Hemophage]

I realize this isnt directly helpful, but after reading through i cant believe i lucked out in having a group of 4 steady, reliable players right off the get go for the NWOD campaign im running. They even stuck with me through a broken few weeks of me being involved with real life stuff. Go my group!