Combat Flowcharts Feedback

[heyhogan]

Folks,

I am a newcomer to Savage Worlds, and I am still trying to wrap my head around the combat rules. Want it to be fast and furrious, but keep stumbling around!

I created the attached flow charts to model combat. If you have any comments, I would appreciate them. I was thinking of using these as handouts to other new players when we start a combat sequence.

[longarms]

Regarding the portions "Move" and "attack". Personally, I would change this to say "free actions, e.g. movement" and action. That could also help you get rid of your "is other" box.

Also, I would break actions up into two phases 1) declare how many actions and 2) take actions. I see 1) skipped a lot, only two find out in the midst of a turn that the player wanted to take multiactions (which needed to be decided before you take any actions)

Also - the box about "wait until your turn and interrupt" implies that, if you go on hold, you must interrupt to act later. However, that is not the case. Interrupt is a narrow circumstance where you are literally acting in the middle of someone else's action. Its also useful to hold, and then act on a later count. A perfect example is holding to wait for an ally's turn, and then acting on the ally's count.

Also, on "is taunt" there is a typo (in the output box you have rule for taunt and intimidate). Also, tricks seem to be missing.

[phantomwhale]

What longarms said !

Especially about players declaring mutliple actions - I'm tempted to try and write a small addon to let players declare (with some rotate-y wheel thing) how many actions they are gunning for this turn, and to automatically add the multi-action modifier to skill rolls.

Also worth noting that the flowchart might lead you to believe you must move then attack, or perform an action (classic DnD style). Whereas you can in fact move, perform action then complete moving. Which is an often forgotten trick in SW combat.

[Griogre]

I have to 3rd, saying the multi-action declaration is really one of the most important thing the player does at the start of his turn. For new players I have them tell me what they want to do at the start of their turn, in three sentences or less, and then I tell them how many actions that is and what the penalty is.

I would personally combine your move and attack diamonds into one diamond: Move and/or Attack.

One other comment on tricks. Successful tricks lower the opponents *parry* which helps *everyone* else on your side in melee.

Another good handout is the Combat Summary chart where it list all the actions the player can do. The Pirate's one is on a downloadable GM screen and I think the GM screens of most other settings also have these charts.

[heyhogan]

Thanks to everyone for all the feedback. I did not realize the value of "Tricks" when I 1st read the rules but now I see how I can use that to make the story more interesting! I will make some updates and will post again in a week or so.

[nezzir]

Perhaps we have been doing things wrong, or I am misreading the chart.

On your "Melee Combat Flowchart" it states that "Roll Twice of Y = Shaken + 1d6". My understanding is, "Roll is Y + 4 = Shaken + 1d6". If someone has a Parry + Mod of 5, you would need a 9 for a Shaken + 1d6. In your example, that person would need a 10.

On the same chart, down in the flow section, the result of "Was Shaken: No" has the player adding a shaken token. Since a success IS a shaken, you have 1 too many flow items here. Likewise, the result of "Is Wildcard: No" has the player killing the mook on a shaken result. The way I understand it, you still have to do damage. "Is Wildcard: No" should lead to a toughness check to see if there was a wound beyond the shaken result.

Ok, now I'm all confused... Is an NPC shaken on a successful hit or a successful damage? I haven't looked at the rest of the chart.

[Griogre]

Ouch, good catch nezzir. NPCs and PCs are shaken when they they take damage that equals toughness up to toughness +3. They are shaken and take 1 wound for each raise on the damage roll.

@heyhogan: I meant to mention this earlier but forgot. Usually in FG instead of marking extras as shaken on the tracker I just turn the token 45 degrees. Also on your flow chart I don't remember seeing two shakens equaling a wound if the second shaken was from something other than a test of wills or trick.

[nezzir]

Advice: There was a lot of confusion in my group, early on, if a raise was TNx2 or TN+4. the confusion came because all the examples use "4" as their sample number. Had they used 3 or 5, it would be clear that it's +4 and not a multiple of the TN. I see this mistake over and over in example text. It confuses new players. Try not to use 4 as a TN when considering things other than ranged TN in examples and formula. When speaking on ranged, adding a cover or range modifier would also expose the +4 vs multiple issue.

[heyhogan]

Nezzir, thanks for the comments. likely i got it wrong. I will review and see if i can't make it clear.

[nezzir]

No problem man, I'm looking forward to distributing the finished project to my group.

[heyhogan]

OK. Based on the feedback so far, I have updated the flowcharts to hopefully make them true to the rules and easier to understand. I think this is better. I had a few things mushed together that added some confusion. Now the melee and ranged flowcharts help decide one thing - a hit. The damage table determines the result of the hit. Let the comments rip. I also added an area effect flowchart and a chase flowchart. Not sure the chase is quite there yet.

[Griogre]

On the 1st page "Is Taunt?" diamond should be "Is Test of Wills?".

I'm not sure if you just missed updating stuff or if you are confused but a raise is 4 higher than a target number. Thus someone with a toughness of 3 if hit for 10 damage would take 1 wound not 3. IE A raise would be 7 for one wound and a second raise would be 11. Since the damage is more than a raise and less than 2 raises it does one wound and the character is shaken.

Last, on your flow chart if a character is shaken he can't take actions other than move half his speed. This needs to go prior to your Free Actions diamond since it effects number of actions and speed. The character gets a spirit roll and on a success becomes unshaken. On a raise he is unshaken and can act normally in a round.

[heyhogan]

Griogre - OK. Made the change. Yes, I was confused about what a "Raise" was. I went back and read the rule again and 4 more not twice more is a raise. Thanks for pointing that out. I updated all the tables that defined Raise wrong. Will post update tomororow. I have not worked in a route for shaken actors yet as you point out. Thanks for the details, I will try to put this in.

Can anyone shed any light on what it means when I see " Toughness 5 (12)" mean, and how the (12) impacts things? I think this is armor and get added to Toughness?!?!?!

[Doswelk]

Toughness 12 (5) would mean the target has toughness 12 but 5 points of that is armour so armour piercing weapons cans reduce the toughness by up to 5 points (depending on their AP)

I suspect Toughness 5 (12) is a mis-print/typo as per the rules that would mean Toughness 5 including 12 points of armour! :)

[heyhogan]

Doswelk - Thanks. Here is another update. I have changed the name to reflect the fact that is is for actions and combat.