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Nelyna
July 19th, 2012, 19:35
So, I just wanted to let people know that the fillable chronicle sheets (I have received one in the past from playing in a FGII game) are not legal in PFS eyes. I had a conversation with a Paizo employee about the subject today.

I wanted to let you know, in case you are planning to take your character to an in-person event (e.g. GenCon for me) that some GMs may have problems with the sheets if your character is chosen to be audited.

Only official Paizo sheets (the ones printed on the back of the scenarios and modules themselves) are legal for PFS records.

Edit: talking about these sheets (http://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showpost.php?p=127650&postcount=2)

Trenloe
July 19th, 2012, 20:13
Only official Paizo sheets (the ones printed on the back of the scenarios and modules themselves) are legal for PFS records.
Thanks for the heads-up. What did this employee actually say? Did they say digital scans of the chronicle from the back of a scenario were acceptable?

Nelyna
July 19th, 2012, 20:26
Exactly. Digital scans are the way to go. Here is a copy of her email:


This does not fall under the Community Use Policy (which you can find here: http://paizo.com/paizo/about/communityuse ). Additionally, this is against the rules of Pathfinder Society Organized Play, as any Chronicle sheet not generated by Paizo is not considered valid.

Not sure what would be the easiest way for us to create sheets going forward. I run a lot of First Steps scenarios by PBP on the Paizo boards, and usually just print out a sheet, fill it out by hand, scan them back in, and then distribute them to my players, and has worked like a charm so far. But I realize not everyone has easy access to a scanner; I just happen to have a huge industrial one at my workplace.

Trenloe
July 19th, 2012, 20:54
Exactly. Digital scans are the way to go. Here is a copy of her email:
You're not involved in a certain Kickstarter project are you? http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/127850193/wooden-promises-an-adventure-module-for-pathfinder?ref=users

Or just coincidence that they're discussing PFS chronicles on there too? (I'm Martin from the comments thread).


Not sure what would be the easiest way for us to create sheets going forward. I run a lot of First Steps scenarios by PBP on the Paizo boards, and usually just print out a sheet, fill it out by hand, scan them back in, and then distribute them to my players, and has worked like a charm so far. But I realize not everyone has easy access to a scanner; I just happen to have a huge industrial one at my workplace.
We've had a few GMs for FG2PFS state that they don't have access to scanners so can't go this route. I have access to one at work but not at home at the moment. I use digitally signed PDFs from the blank fillable forms - but these apparently aren't good enough.

It will be interesting to see what changes are made for PFS play chronicle sheets on the recently announced Paizo VTT "game-space"...

Nelyna
July 19th, 2012, 21:02
Hah, no, must be pure coincidence.

I wonder if there is a way to replicate munchkin_gamer's effort for each scenario's sheet (without auto-calculation), but just thinking about that sounds like a pretty big effort. 4 seasons of scenarios at 26ish a pop is almost 100 pdfs to create and host.

Trenloe
July 19th, 2012, 21:18
I wonder if there is a way to replicate munchkin_gamer's effort for each scenario's sheet (without auto-calculation), but just thinking about that sounds like a pretty big effort. 4 seasons of scenarios at 26ish a pop is almost 100 pdfs to create and host.
I've done the blank sheet without calculations based off munchin_gamer's original sheet. It would be a lot of work to do this for all scenarios and would still fall under the umbrella of not using the sheet from the back of the scenario. Unless each actual sheet was converted to be form fillable - which would take ages (and probably break some Paizo copyright).

See an attached example - 2737

It looks pretty close and has all of the details etc. and is no different in terms of details from the actual one at the back of the scenario. It still requires the players to write all the updated details in in pen for their physical copy.

The wording in the latest (4.1) Pathfinder society guide is not clear as to what is acceptable:

Another place to play Pathfinder Society events is online. Allowed formats include play-by-post, chat-based games, digital tabletops, and webcam-enhanced “face-to-face” gaming. So long as the Game Master has a way of distributing all of the appropriate paperwork (by fax, scan, or otherwise), any form of legitimate online play is allowed and encouraged.
We could argue that a fillable form falls into the "otherwise" bit of "fax, scan or otherwise"...

Blackfoot
July 22nd, 2012, 06:53
According to curtis (the guy who made the PDF) he spoke with Mike Brock and Vic (the Chief Technical Officer) at Paizo... and he was told by both that the fillable sheets were legal, so long as they had an actual signature image attached to them. So I'm not sure who you were talking to... but maybe they need to check their facts.

Trenloe
July 22nd, 2012, 07:19
I've sent one of the forms we use as an example to Pazio (Mike Brock - Pathfinder Society co-ordinator) and have asked for confirmation of what we can/can't use for online PFS game chronicle sheets.

Mike is currently traveling in Europe and then will be very busy with GenCon, so we may not get a proper response for a while.

In the meanwhile I suggest we just keep on doing what we're doing at the moment.

The key thing is that players makes sure they have properly filled out chronicle sheets - whether you are playing face-to-face or online, or a combination of both. Print out the chronicle sheet you receive from your online PFS game, fill out all blank areas in pen, keep an accurate track of everything on the chronicle sheet - especially purchases and sales. If you have complete, correctly filled out forms GMs won't give you a hard time. The main sticking point is if you don't have complete "paper" copies of all of your chronicles for any PC you wish to play.

If anyone is unsure about how to complete forms properly (either GMs or players) please reply to this thread - or PM me directly if you want to discuss offline.

edwardcd
July 22nd, 2012, 11:13
Hello,

I'd just like to clear up some information sparked about this topic. And provide some links to discussions made in public about this very issue.

http://paizo.com/forums/dmtz4uyh?Blank-Chronicle-Sheet#17
This post is from Mark Moreland, the Development Lead for Paizo (who works closely with Pathfinder Society). He states that anyone could make their own Chronicle sheets, they just can not be distributed or referenced on Paizo's website since they can not be personalized and watermarked using Paizo's Asset Management System.

That said, not all chronicles are Pathfinder Society Legal. Such as, if I audit anyone's PFS Chronicle and all that's listed on their chronicle is XP and PA earned I will reject the chronicle - even if it's a copy of the original chronicle from the back of the scenario. A valid legal Pathfinder Society Chronicle has completely filled out entries from top to bottom with a signature.

I know that a point of contention for some GMs is that they need to ensure that all fields have values before signing. And now, people are coming across what makes a chronicle not legal, and it's a direct consequence of two things: a valid signature or not completed chronicles as per Guide to Pathfinder Society Organized Play. Simply follow the directions on the Guide to "Filling Out a Chronicle Sheet" outlined in page 28 through page 30.

To adapt this procedure for Online Play, first give out the chronicle sheet to the player before you start. Have each player enter the required information in each section. The player can write down what purchases they wish to make and keep track of each cost during the session and total everything up for GM review at the end. The player saves their sheet appropriately and sends it back to the GM for review and final signature. The GM signature must be present, the standard Adobe written signature is NOT VALID without an image of the GM's ACTUAL signature.

You can create a VALID actual GM signature by following the instructions listed on Adobe's webpage: http://help.adobe.com/en_US/acrobat/standard/using/WSAC8084C2-14F7-4841-9EF8-92106D22C3DB.w.html
You may either create an image to attach to your by "create the signature appearance" using a graphic signature of your ACTUAL signature.

I've been using form-fill-able PDFs for PFS for over a year. All of the Chronicles I've issued were gladly accepted at every gaming convention my players and I have attended (includes PaizoCon 2012, Gencon 2011, and smaller conventions alike).

I've created the Original V2 form and made it available for the community to use after communicating with Mike Brock starting on November 4th, 2011. Thereafter, I shared the form via link on Paizo's message boards on December 7th, 2011. The following day Chris Lambertz removed posts that linked to this form. I then reached out to Mike Brock whom instructed me to talk with Chris or Vic to see what I could do to make the PDF compliant with their public use policy to display a link of the form on their message boards or website. I then was informed that while the electronic form-fill-able PDF could be used in Pathfinder Society Official Play, that since Paizo's Asset Management System could not personalize and watermark the PDF download that it could not be linked or offered via the Paizo message boards or website.

A side note:
While munchin_gamer35 on yahoo (HacknSlashn on Paizo's site) posted the PDF form-fill-able Chronicle, he did not create it. He was a player of one of my games and was a player with another GM who I normally game with (thus they have access to my form prior to me posting on Paizo's message boards). My user name is identical here and on Paizo's website, if you'd like to verify authenticity.

V3 forms (not available anywhere but with my current players and GM circle have Fame ratings to 99+). V2 forms are limited to the old limit of 67+.

Best,
Curtis


So, I just wanted to let people know that the fillable chronicle sheets (I have received one in the past from playing in a FGII game) are not legal in PFS eyes. I had a conversation with a Paizo employee about the subject today.

I wanted to let you know, in case you are planning to take your character to an in-person event (e.g. GenCon for me) that some GMs may have problems with the sheets if your character is chosen to be audited.

Only official Paizo sheets (the ones printed on the back of the scenarios and modules themselves) are legal for PFS records.

Edit: talking about these sheets (http://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showpost.php?p=127650&postcount=2)

Trenloe
July 22nd, 2012, 17:46
Hello,

<Lots and lots and lots of very useful information and insights>

Best,
Curtis
Thanks a lot Curtis for taking the time to fill us all in on the background to this issue, and for providing your recommendations/guidelines. As you say, the main thing is to make sure you have a properly filled out chronicle sheet (form in our case) with a GMs signature - thanks for providing the information on how to do this.

OrenSatov
July 22nd, 2012, 18:29
Neat. If I ever lose my chronicle for Hydra's Fang, there's a link here!

If I understand the problem correctly, could a version of a form-fillable PDF be given to Paizo, WITH the creator's password so they could assume ownership? This ~should~ allow their asset system to do the required watermarking and end all debate. Or is it more complicated than that?

Nelyna
July 23rd, 2012, 15:12
Glad that everything was figured out! Having to change how we did it would have been a large undertaking. Hopefully Mike Brock will just confirm all Curtis said.

If you havent heard from Mike by GenCon I'll ask him in person then.

-Nel

DAWPage
July 24th, 2012, 01:17
What if you print the fillable to a PDF writer like CutePDF http://www.cutepdf.com/Products/CutePDF/writer.asp (it is free). I am not sure, but that should make the pdf so that it is lo longer filliable. I do not have a copy of the writeble one, but I do use CutePDF, so if somebody can tell me where to get it, I could test it out.

Dave

Trenloe
July 24th, 2012, 07:16
What if you print the fillable to a PDF writer like CutePDF http://www.cutepdf.com/Products/CutePDF/writer.asp (it is free). I am not sure, but that should make the pdf so that it is lo longer filliable. I do not have a copy of the writeble one, but I do use CutePDF, so if somebody can tell me where to get it, I could test it out.

Dave
This is what a lot of us do - see the example I attached in post #6.

This isn't the issue that we're worried about - the base issue being reported is whether any form at all, other than a scan of an original PFS scenario chronicle sheet (from the back of the scenario played) is acceptable.

The concern is that a GM in a face-to-face game may reject a character because it doesn't have a full set of "proper" Paizo chronicle sheets.

In the end - even if we get a ruling one way or the other, until it is made clear in the Guide to Pathfinder Society Organized Play what is and isn't acceptable there is always the chance of a GM rejecting a character because they believe an eChronicle sheet is not valid.

Mgrancey
July 26th, 2012, 04:04
Is cutepdf how you guys add the red slashes and circles?

Trenloe
July 26th, 2012, 05:33
Is cutepdf how you guys add the red slashes and circles?
No, that's using Adobe Acrobat (not Acrobat Reader). There may be other applications out there that allow comments/markups at a much reduced cost compared to Acrobat (perhaps there is even a GPL/Freeware app).

I have a few apps for iPad and Android tablets that allow markup/comments to be added to a PDF and they cost only a few $$$.