Piazo VTT

[Griogre]

Guess we now know why they didn't want Smiteworks to do licensed stuff:

https://paizo.com/paizo/blog/v5748dyo5ldn1?Paizo-announces-Paizo-Game-Space#discuss



Paizo Game Space

current run through: 7 minutes. previous run-through: 9 minutes

pre-demo checklist

mouse for laptop
mac mini, ethernet cable, plugged in, turned on
https://192.168.132.126:55435
hide browser chrome

sign in, select Gary Teter's Swallowtail Festival
zoom in on ginormous dragon so big as possible

minimize window

have separate blank browser window open in case of accidental switching

--

presentation

We're working on a lot of stuff:
A redesign of the Pathfinder Society website, along with new forums for each faction
Way to upload character sheets and stat blocks to paizo.com, going to be biggest stat block database on the internet
More stuff I can't talk about.

Tonight i'm going to talk about one thing.

Today, Paizo is announcing a new way to play the games you love: Paizo Game Space.

[main screen ON, showing map with dragon]

--

Paizo Game Space is amazing software that lets you play with the people you know... anywhere in the world. All you need is the internet.

It's a virtual tabletop. Now VTTs aren't new. I'm gonna say "VTT" a lot because "virtual tabletop" is kind of a mouthful.

Virtual tabletops aren't new. There have been literally dozens of them before this. Some of them we like. Some of them we like a lot.

But none of them is exactly what we think a virtual tabletop should be.

..

We've talked to a lot of people and they all say the same thing:

We love playing on a VTT. We can keep our group together after people move away.

We love playing on a VTT. As Cosmo told me the other day, it lets him game in his underwear without all the catcalling and wolf whistles.

People love playing on a VTT. But they're kind of annoying!

You have to find the software. And download it. Install it. Will it run on a Mac? That's a big one for us at Paizo.

And then you get the fun part. IP addresses and firewalls and port forwarding and all that. Even network administrators don't want to deal with that stuff. That's work! We're here for fun.

..

So today, Paizo is reinventing the virtual tabletop.

Paizo Game Space runs right in your web browser. There's no software to install! None. Not even a plug-in.
If you can get to paizo.com, you and your friends can play on Paizo Game Space.

We're all about making life better for gamers. We've built Paizo Game Space to do just that. So let's take a quick look.

..

[.... demo ... ]

Here I've got the first combat from Rise of the Runelords, the Swallowtail Festival.

Smooth scrolling, panning, zooming

Drag tokens around. Resize dragon back to huge from "ginormous". Move it off map.

..

So here's the thing. Running a game in a VTT is fun, but the prep work is kind of a pain.

You still have to find a map, prepare it, resize it, load it, align the grid. And then you get to go looking for monster art and tokens and handouts and all the rest.

And for some of us that's fun, but sometimes you just want to play.

..

Paizo Game Space changes all that.

We're going to do the prep work for you.

When you run an adventure like Rise of the Runelords on Paizo Game Space, all the maps and handouts, all the monsters and NPCs, will already be right there for you.

..

Zoom in to FRUIT CART note, we had technical difficulties with the Swallowtail map, so instead we used a different flip-mat, so actually zoomed into carpet details instead of seeing individual fruits in fruit cart

The source for this map is about 200 megabytes. It's higher resolution than what we put in our PDFs. This is the original art we send to the printer. Maximum resolution.

Zoom out.

..

Let's take a quick look at combat. I want to emphasize something here about our approach.

We are not implementing the Pathfinder rules in Paizo Game Space. That would be crazy.

Our approach is, just don't be stupid by default.

..

Show Initiative tab.

So it knows a little about initiative.

Roll initiative. Modify a roll.

Start combat. Next, next. Round separator.

So it knows a little about initiative, it knows players and monsters go in order, and it knows about rolling dice. But if you need to change something you can.

Drag to reorder initiative. Click to delay or ready. Next, next. Take readied action.

...

OK, so that's a brief look at Paizo Game Space. I can't tell you how excited I am about this.

Let me answer a couple questions I know you have: When can I use it. And how much is it gonna cost.

When can I use it.

It's not quite ready yet. Don't worry, we're not going to wait until it's perfect. It turns out, software is never perfect.
So you'll be able to play with Paizo Game Space sometime this summer. And we'll keep making it better as we go.

How much will it cost?

Nothing. We haven't worked out all of the details yet. Or really any of the details.
But you'll be able to play a game on our virtual tabletop and not pay us a dime.

We'll have ways for you to give us money, don't worry about that. We like money.

But the main reason we're working on this is to build our community. Provide a place for you to gather.

A place to meet, talk, hang around, buy stuff. And now, game.

Thank you, and good night!

[Moon Wizard]

Yeah, they were probably just checking out the competition, like Wizards did. I still find it interesting that a lot of these guys use other VTTs internally.

I actually welcome the competition in the space. More marketing means more people interested and aware of VTTs, and I think Fantasy Grounds is in a good position.

Regards,
JPG

[ddavison]

I thought they might be working on that when they volunteered to form a committee to discuss new standards for character storage formats. It seemed very Microsoft-like of them at the time.

I think too many companies (at least two I can think of) underestimate exactly how much is involved in a fully featured VTT. You can't really argue with free, but I think they are both spending a lot of time, effort and focus on something that they don't really have the expertise or even the real "need" to build. IT projects often fail and larger ones seem to be the biggest culprits.

[damned]

hehe... on the back of all the kickstarter talk of android/ipad apps I started investigating what might be involved.
the complexities of actually supporting rulesets and not just having a shared map, dice roller and character sheet - but actually making them all work together and in the framework of a particular ruleset... far out.
i did howver check out several google hangout based frameworks which are really coming along - and the google hangouts provides a number of the base building blocks to speed up development.
on the downside - which was i thought quite ironic - cant get any of them to load on Android 3 or 4!

[Trenloe]

I was at this presentation at PaizoCon last night - the software is very much in its infancy, the demo was very underwhelming. All we saw was a map, a few tokens and a very basic initiative tracker.

Obviously, development will move forwards and the product will become more polished and have more features; and getting access to Paizo adventure maps (and whatever else they package together for a module) will be a major draw, as well as just the draw of "Paizo are doing this, it will be awesome!" - which I heard a lot of times last night.

I think it will be good for the VTT industry and it will get people looking at VTTs where they haven't before. It will be interesting to see what Paizo actually deliver...

[RosenMcStern]

It will be interesting to see what Paizo actually deliver...

Well, they cannot do worse than Wizards. It is technically impossible :D

[wbcreighton]

Paizo has made it clear that the rules will not be integrated into the VTT. That eliminates lots of headaches, but in comparison shows the real strength of FG.

In the end it will draw attention to VTTs and the serious users will migrate to FG, IMHO.

Of course paizo game space will probably be a huge meeting ground for casual players and Gms. Good place to recruit new users. :D

[Griogre]

The current iteration sounds very much like the Screen Monkey VTT. They'll just include the map, counters and maybe make it real time.

[khersheyjr]

Speaking of VTTs, WotC just announced they are be coming to an end.


" I wanted to inform you all about an important decision that Wizards has made regarding the D&D Virtual Table and Virtual Table Beta. While we appreciate the enthusiasm and participation in the Beta phase, we were unable to generate enough support for the tool to launch a full version to the public. Effective July 30, 2012 the D&D Virtual Table Beta will be coming to an end and the VT will be closed.


Over the next three weeks, we encourage you to wrap up your existing campaigns and make sure to gather contact information from your online group members so that you can stay in touch if you like. We realize that because all data generated in the tool is in a proprietary format usable only by the Virtual Table, it is not possible to export your campaigns for use in another tool. You can, however, take screenshots of any notes, maps or adventures that you would like to hang on to or use in your home games.


We would like to thank everyone who participated in the VT Beta and look forward to continuing to support D&D game play through our D&D Insider digital tools and D&D Next."

[sturtus]

And this just in from Wizards:

You have a new broadcast on your site at The Wizards Community!

Wotc_Joshfrom the groupD&D Insider Beta has sent you a broadcast.
Subject: D&D VT Community Announcement
I wanted to inform you all about an important decision that Wizards has made regarding the D&D Virtual Table and Virtual Table Beta. While we appreciate the enthusiasm and participation in the Beta phase, we were unable to generate enough support for the tool to launch a full version to the public. Effective July 30, 2012 the D&D Virtual Table Beta will be coming to an end and the VT will be closed.


Over the next three weeks, we encourage you to wrap up your existing campaigns and make sure to gather contact information from your online group members so that you can stay in touch if you like. We realize that because all data generated in the tool is in a proprietary format usable only by the Virtual Table, it is not possible to export your campaigns for use in another tool. You can, however, take screenshots of any notes, maps or adventures that you would like to hang on to or use in your home games.


We would like to thank everyone who participated in the VT Beta and look forward to continuing to support D&D game play through our D&D Insider digital tools and D&D Next.

[ddavison]

Case in point.

It's not trivial to do it even for a large company. Besides, they already devote a lot of time to supporting MTGO. I really don't know why Paizo expects their effort to turn out differently. It's simply not a good ROI for them just so they can maintain complete control and it's definitely not worth the risk of it failing to succeed after investing a lot of time, money and goodwill.

[damned]

possibly they dont want to support FG2 because it is so good at supporting OTHER rulesets as well as theirs?

[ddavison]

Maybe, but why should they care? They are in the business of selling the best content they can produce. They don't decide not to sell through Amazon or Borders simply because those outlets also have products from their competitors.

No matter which games system you support, there is fantastic content being created at both of the big two companies. I personally own plenty of both of their stuff, along with content from several other publishers I like.

[damned]

so maybe its a good time to approach WOTC again?
if they would provide you licensing and push FG2 as an officially licensed VTT... it would benefit all FG2 users...

[ddavison]

Already started. Our contacts have changed a few times on us though, so it may take a bit for the message to reach the right audience.

[unerwünscht]

My only fear as a user is that if you get an official license for WotC products, they strike me as the kind of company that would require you to drop all other companies from official product support, and in my opinion that would be no good.

[Illrigger]

My only fear as a user is that if you get an official license for WotC products, they strike me as the kind of company that would require you to drop all other companies from official product support, and in my opinion that would be no good.
They haven't done so in the past (in the 3E days, when they had realistic goals for their licensees). It's in their best interest to work with the well established VTT app devs to get the users onboard to buy their books - the more people that are playing, the more books they sell.

With them giving up on the disaster that was the VGT and 5E development in full swing (and with 5E being particularly VTT friendly in its current state), this is an ideal time to start licensing it to the companies that already know what they are doing from a content selling standpoint (that is, the VTTs with built in secure markets they can leverage).

I am betting if FG can demonstrate a locked-content model to them (that is, downloaded content that is encrypted so it can't be pirated after it is purchased), they will have a major leg up in negotiations....

[SLB]

I never understood why Wizards didn't go the open source route with the VTT - get the community to do the work - in exchange, provide a hosting location and then use a subscription service (like their Insider) to provide all the books etc.

And I agree with the prevailing opinions here - Paizo is doing themselves a disservice by spending time, resources and money re-inventing the wheel. Imagine what that same amount of money would do if it was invested in supporting FG? Especially since the vast majority of the functionality already exists.

Disappointing really.

[joeru]

I haven't really played a game with FG in ages, but there's one potential issue in the possible WotC licensing that worries me. Namely that virtually all of the developing resources of Smiteworks would go to features of no practical use to other gaming systems.

[damned]

that *could* happen for a period of time while they concentrated on getting the WOTC product to a certain spec - but that would increase userbase and revenue and ultimately that woudl flow back into a bigger and better supported community....

[Valarian]

The main developments now are focussed on the 3.5e/4e rulesets. The other published rulesets are always in a state of playing catch-up.

[wbcreighton]

Case in point.

It's not trivial to do it even for a large company. Besides, they already devote a lot of time to supporting MTGO. I really don't know why Paizo expects their effort to turn out differently. It's simply not a good ROI for them just so they can maintain complete control and it's definitely not worth the risk of it failing to succeed after investing a lot of time, money and goodwill.

If you read the book: "Thinking, Fast and Slow"
https://www.amazon.com/Thinking-Fast-Slow-Daniel-Kahneman/dp/0374275637
( an excellent book that I would recommend to everyone )

you would probably judge Paizo's expectations as a case of "inside view vs outside view". The people involved within a group or project generally always view their chances of completing the project as "very good" even when faced with overwhelming evidence from the outside world that their chances are not good. People within the group will judge their own group as different from the norm, and therefore not likely to suffer the same pitfalls as those other groups that failed. I would say this is a classic case.

Having said that, there have been some recent examples of rules system agnostic VTTs that have had good start ups.

[wbcreighton]

so maybe its a good time to approach WOTC again?
if they would provide you licensing and push FG2 as an officially licensed VTT... it would benefit all FG2 users...

My take on the politics of the situation is:

1) Wotc just announced their own failure to deliver on something they promised to their subscribers.

2) They blamed the failure on being "unable to generate enough support for the tool to launch a full version to the public"

3) Where is the political will to then turn around as say "actually we messed up, and we are going to hand over the reins to a company that knows how to do it right" ?

I think until the people who were in charge of the project ( or thought it up) are gone, they won't be going to anyone else that might prove them wrong.

[Illrigger]

My take on the politics of the situation is:

1) Wotc just announced their own failure to deliver on something they promised to their subscribers.

2) They blamed the failure on being "unable to generate enough support for the tool to launch a full version to the public"

3) Where is the political will to then turn around as say "actually we messed up, and we are going to hand over the reins to a company that knows how to do it right" ?

I think until the people who were in charge of the project ( or thought it up) are gone, they won't be going to anyone else that might prove them wrong.

Not necessarily. Just because their vision of the product failed to generate enough support does not mean that the idea behind it was flawed, and the people at Hasbro know it. The reason they went internal on the 4e development to begin with was that they wanted "World of Warcraft money" via subscribers, but in 2012 everyone realizes that WoW was just in the right place at the right time and that nobody (even Blizzard) will ever make that happen again. It's ironic, because what happened was they fell in to the same trap that all of the rest of the game industry did when MTG came out - trying to compete with a "perfect storm" product and losing their shirts doing so.

The beauty of licensing is that it brings in profit with very little investment; they would supply FG with advance copies of materiels, and in return FG would develop the rulesets and pay them for every copy sold. It's win-win, and hopefully they can see that.

[wbcreighton]

It's win-win, and hopefully they can see that.

It is WOTC. Isn't that asking a lot ? :D

[wbcreighton]

Well there is a way out...
I am the Vice-President of GameTable Online and I am happy to say we will be adopting the VT platform and are currently preparing to host it at our new RPG portal. GTO coded and developed the VT so we are very familiar with the platform and are excited to be going live with this roleplaying game application.


The anticipated name for the new VT will be RPGTable Online and we have claimed the URL address of www.rpgtableonline.com. We have some work to do to prepare for the transition but expect to be back to hosting online RPG sessions at the end of July!


A big concern for us was making sure that your existing VT Dungeons & Dragons campaigns are transferred to RPGTO. To transfer your active campaigns to RPGTable Online all you need to do is register at www.gametableonline.com before we go live and email your GTO User Name and VT Screen Name to [email protected]. When the transition to the RPGTO site goes forward, our plan is to port your content over so all of your campaigns will be waiting for you!


GTO has been hosting online board games, since 2003 so we know and love games. We are looking forward to the opportunity to expand our online games to include RPGs application.


Robert Eng

from the WoTC forum

[ddavison]

I saw that too and I'm tentatively optimistic about that. I think there are plenty people inside WoTC that want to see virtual tabletop gaming succeed. Licensing all their content to multiple companies would simply expand their available outlets and increasing competition is good for future innovation. What I couldn't figure out from the post was whether or not they would actually be delivering any content or conversions of content or if they were just going to be providing the basic framework that they had available in the beta VTT.

I think there is an active market for a lot of their content, both old and new. The same is true for Paizo.

[RosenMcStern]

2) They blamed the failure on being "unable to generate enough support for the tool to launch a full version to the public"

That is a whole mound of ... well, you can guess what.

a) Their development team was simply unable to deliver on time. It happens all the time in software production. Had they delivered when they started the DDI, it would have generated the needed support.

b) They have already planned a new edition of the game, so whatever they do now with 4e will enter "planned obsolesce" in a couple of years, if not sooner. Imagining that their not-so-smart developers can make the VTT so flexible as to work with D&D Next at no cost, and with no trouble for the users, would be madness.

These, and nothing else, are the reasons for the cancellation. The "not enough support" stuff is the effect, not the cause, of their failure.

Let us see what happens next. Anyway, seeing "the big money" not being able to compete with smaller companies that actually deliver the contents the big ones only promise is always nice :)

[TheMetal1]

Rather suprised to see this announcement. Missed it somehow over at Paizo as well.

I do wish them the best, as it's a great way to get more people aware of VTTs and to expand the hobby. This year has been rather interesting for Paizo, with the announcement of the Goblinwork's Pathfinder MMO and now the Paizo VTT. It seems to me though, that a much larger investment of capital is required for the MMO and the VTT than would be for dead tree publishing. I applaud their move to new markets, but my concern is mission creep - doing too much. I'm suprised they didn't choose just one option for development, specifically the VTT and have that well in had before jumping into things with an MMO which will be 3 to 5 years down the road.