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jedorian
July 6th, 2012, 00:35
So, one of my players has taken Craft Wondrous Item and will start making items at some point. My question is about the crafting process. I've read over Paizo's description about the basics, but my player is under the impression that he can forgo the CL requirement on any item and make something at any level. I've tried to find the documentation on this and I can't. I'm still not 100% familiar with all the Pathfinder changes over 3.5, so I'm not dismissing this offhand, since it could very well be something that they did do. I don't see why that would be so, since that seems extremely wrong to me. So, here I am asking some of you more knowleable fellows about this particular case.

The main disagreement is in accepting whether or not the minimum level to cast a spell is required and whether or not a feat requirement can be ignored. The text of many items show that they can be made at varying levels (Bracers of Armor, Pearl of Power). This is very clear to me, but the argument at hand is that of the caster supposedly being able to cast a spell despite not having the necessary level to do. Such as being 5th level and casting a 5th level spell. I can find no documentation at all that states that a wizard, for example, can cast a spell which requires them to be higher in level than they are. The Core Rule book makes it clear that a spell can be ignored by adding +5 to the DC to make the item, but that the caster must be of the minimum level needed to cast said spell. My players disagree with this and are reading into it far differently than I.

I've gone over other forum discussions about this topic and still have the question unanswered as to whether or not the CL can simply be ignored. Alot of people have some interesting ideas about this which conflict drastically with what the book says in print. Some of these people have even posted quotes from the Paizo creators and authors, but have failed to cite sources to these apparent quotes, which leaves me wondering if they are true statements at all.

Mgrancey
July 6th, 2012, 01:59
That can be a complicated question. The basics are:

They need to be at least the minimum casting level
They need to be able to cast the spell each day of crafting (whether it is one they know, can prepare, or have a scroll or wand for)
1,000 gp of work from the base price can be done in 8 hours
Potions and scrolls can be done in 2 hours if Base cost is 250 gp or less
You calculate the base price and then divide by half for the crafting cost
The work DOESN'T need to be consecutive
At the end a skill check (usually Spellcraft) is made DC 5 + CL of item
Only 1 item at a time.

Costs Here (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items#Table-Estimating-Magic-Item-Gold-Piece-Values)

The more detailed parts include:

Increasing the DC by 5+ can reduce time required for work to 1,000gp/4 hours
Enhancement bonuses for Weapons and Armor require a CL time 3 of the bonus.
You can work on items while adventuring but it will only count for 2 hours a day of work done
Failing the DC by 5 or more creates a cursed item
Some items can be made without meeting prerequisites but increases the DC by +5 for each not met (Spell trigger and spell completion can't use this)


So I guess technically he could but it would +5 for each level he doesn't have and an extra +5 for probably not having the spell. He also won't know or realize its cursed until its used or put on. Personally though the worse he misses by the worse I would make the curse, fail by enough and his characer would probably end up a NPC villan

It used to get more complicated (3.5) when you had to start figuring out feat access, bonuses, multiple abilities, and item type it needs to be. Failing would be loss of time and 1/2 resources.

Usual rule of thumb is they need to have the feat or skill OR have someone who does have access to a skill or feat there involved. Skills require the base bonus (no magic or the contected stat add ins; just ranks, class skill bonus, and class bonuses) has to match bonus of the item.


IF you don't like these rules, you can alter them or make new ones, just remember to be consistent and set down how it will work. Also don't let them roll over you, as long as your not being unfair there should only be some grumbling and if it keeps up maybe seek a replacement for them. Personally, I hate GMs that end up too strict, not allowing any creativity, or too soft, and lets the players get away with everything.

I hope this cleared up crafting a bit. If you know how 3/3.5 crafting works it really similar just a bit more easier.

Silveras
July 6th, 2012, 17:00
Note that all items have prerequisites in their descriptions. These prerequisites must be met for the item to be created. Most of the time, they take the form of spells that must be known by the itemís creator (although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed). The DC to create a magic item increases by +5 for each prerequisite the caster does not meet. The only exception to this is the requisite item creation feat, which is mandatory.

In addition, you cannot create potions, spell-trigger, or spell-completion magic items without meeting their spell prerequisites. While item creation costs are handled in detail below, note that normally the two primary factors are the caster level of the creator and the level of the spell or spells put into the item. A creator can create an item at a lower caster level than her own, but never lower than the minimum level needed to cast the needed spell. Using metamagic feats, a caster can place spells in items at a higher level than normal.

Emphssis mine, of course.

Jedorian, do you visit the Paizo forums? The Paizo staff are pretty active, and you can usually find answers to rules questions there. Often, the community can help, but the Pathfinder developers also reply fairly often (when it is not convention season). Those may be where you're seeing people pulling answers from. Some of the text I quoted there is changed from the 1st printing, clarified in response to questions like yours raised on the Paizo forums (http://www.paizo.com, click on "Messageboards").

Their blog posts can also be helpful, such as this one on Analyzing a Magic Item Stat Block (http://paizo.com/paizo/blog/2012/january/v5748dyo5ld00?Analyzing-a-Magic-Item-Stat-Block)

In addition, there are FAQs for the hardcover rulebooks posted on the site, and there are errata documents released when each book is re-printed, to update whichever printing you have to the current (for example, there are 4 different errata documents for the Core Rulebook; one for each of the previous printings to update it to the 5th printing).

jedorian
July 7th, 2012, 17:57
I hadn't gone to the Paizo forums before I made my first post. One of my players linked me the url for this very topic and many of the things Sean K. Reynolds explained helped to clarify how to handle item crafting.

That thread is here: http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/pathfinderRPG/rules/magicItemCreationAndCasterLevel

My greatest issue with the argument I was having with my players was concerning the minimum level for an item and that thread very clearly explained that a person must have the level needed to have cast the spell they're trying to ignore in the first place.