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Blackfoot
May 28th, 2012, 16:44
Is there a way to inflict Ability Damage directly using a damage type or something? I can't seem to figure out a way to inflict damage to that section on the sheet without entering it manually.
That box is a little screwy in it's function since it is only on the PC side.. damage to NPCs would need to be an 'effect' so therefore I suppose damage to PCs needs to be an 'effect' to be consistent... Also most of my PCs use this field as a BONUS field (for items that give more permanent bonuses) rather than a DAMAGE field so damage would actually screw them up a bit there.

Yeah.. ok.. I'm on both sides of the fence on this one..

Moon Wizard
May 28th, 2012, 16:47
It would need to be an effect right now that was added manually. It's on my internal wish list for 3.5E, but it's fairly complex to implement for limited use, so it hasn't been on top.

Regards,
JPG

Blackfoot
May 28th, 2012, 16:52
It would need to be an effect right now that was added manually. It's on my internal wish list for 3.5E, but it's fairly complex to implement for limited use, so it hasn't been on top.

Regards,
JPG
I assumed as much but I wanted to be sure.. thanks for the quick response.. WOW!

I figured it would be a pretty complex implementation... seems like some of the basic concepts of how it works would need to change a little bit and... as you say... pretty limited use.

Silveras
May 31st, 2012, 14:33
@Blackfoot: You mentioned that your players are applying ability damage directly on the sheet.

A pitfall that HeroLab ran into, and one that I think a lot of 3.5-era players who switched to Pathfinder don't realize, is that Ability bonuses and Damage do not directly affect the ability SCORE.

For every 2 "points" of bonus or penalty, you apply a bonus or penalty to the Ability MODIFIER (as the current ability Effects work now, if I am reading them correctly).

The main idea seems to be letting the temporary boosts (such as bull's strength spells) and temporary penalties (such as Ability Damage) only affect the score's modifier. Related "collateral" effects (like carrying capacity for Strength, or how far your hit points can go below 0 before you die for Constitution) remain unaffected.

So, bull's strength gives a +4 to Strength, which translates to (and should be implemented as ) a +2 bonus to your Strength MODIFIER.

Likewise, 1 point of Ability damage has no effect at all (other than needing to be tracked because). When it reaches 2, you apply a -1 penalty to the modifier for the score.

Reference: p. 555 of the Core Rulebook

Blackfoot
May 31st, 2012, 16:12
The main idea seems to be letting the temporary boosts (such as bull's strength spells) and temporary penalties (such as Ability Damage) only affect the score's modifier. Related "collateral" effects (like carrying capacity for Strength, or how far your hit points can go below 0 before you die for Constitution) remain unaffected.
A belt of Giant's Strength and Ray of Enfeeblement don't increase/decrease your carrying capacity? That's kinda absurd. Are you sure about that one?

Trenloe
May 31st, 2012, 16:13
@Blackfoot: You mentioned that your players are applying ability damage directly on the sheet.

A pitfall that HeroLab ran into, and one that I think a lot of 3.5-era players who switched to Pathfinder don't realize, is that Ability bonuses and Damage do not directly affect the ability SCORE.

For every 2 "points" of bonus or penalty, you apply a bonus or penalty to the Ability MODIFIER (as the current ability Effects work now, if I am reading them correctly).

The main idea seems to be letting the temporary boosts (such as bull's strength spells) and temporary penalties (such as Ability Damage) only affect the score's modifier. Related "collateral" effects (like carrying capacity for Strength, or how far your hit points can go below 0 before you die for Constitution) remain unaffected.

So, bull's strength gives a +4 to Strength, which translates to (and should be implemented as ) a +2 bonus to your Strength MODIFIER.

Likewise, 1 point of Ability damage has no effect at all (other than needing to be tracked because). When it reaches 2, you apply a -1 penalty to the modifier for the score.

Reference: p. 555 of the Core Rulebook
Yeah, not very many people know that - and some who do still apply it as ability damage.

Looking at Fantasy Grounds it applies it directly as ability damage. I am also seeing an issue with it incorrectly applying attack modifiers based on ability damage. If you have a Longsword and a STR bonus of +1 say, then apply 2 points of ability damage the to hit modifier for the longsword in "Actions" is not changed (the Combat tab shows corrects) but the longsword damage is reduced from 1d8+1 to 1d8. Then remove the ability damage and the to hit modifier in the Longsword action goes down! I'll report this...

Blackfoot
May 31st, 2012, 16:31
OK.. Looking at this closer (following Trenloe's link...)
PERMANENT ability adjustments (ones that last over 24 hours) affect things like CC and HP max.. all skills and abilities related to the stat.
So .. based on what moon_wizard has said.. and the way the rules read...
it seems best to apply temporary (under 24 hour) damage/bonuses as 'effects' on the tracker and MORE than 24 hour damage/bonuses as 'damage' on the main page.

It is still absurd that ray of enfeeblement wouldn't reduce your CC immediately.

Further reading:
Ability Drain: Ability drain actually reduces the relevant ability score. Modify all skills and statistics related to that ability. This might cause you to lose skill points, hit points, and other bonuses. Ability drain can be healed through the use of spells such as restoration.
I would assume that means CC too.
OK.. 'Drain' apparently isn't what Ray of Enfeeblement does.. screwy.

Trenloe
May 31st, 2012, 16:44
It is still absurd that ray of enfeeblement wouldn't reduce your CC immediately.
What do you mean by CC?

Whatever CC is, ray of enfeeblement would have an effect on STR based activities immediately if the damage done was greater than 2. 2 = -1 STR mod penalty, 4 = -2 STR mod penalty, etc.

Blackfoot
May 31st, 2012, 16:45
Carrying Capacity... see above... we are talking about different issues. :)

Trenloe
May 31st, 2012, 16:53
Carrying Capacity... see above... we are talking about different issues. :)
Ah right - sorry, missed that as we posted about the same time. All I could think of was Concentration Check! I was thinking which classes use Concentration Check based off STR??? LOL! :D

Blackfoot
May 31st, 2012, 16:56
Well... I suppose it's tough to concentrate when you are feeling weak in the knees.. but.. that's a WHOLE different story. :D

Silveras
June 1st, 2012, 01:41
@Blackfoot: That's why I was careful to phrase it as "Ability Damage" when talking about the temporary nature of the modifiers. Drain, as a (mostly) permanent condition, is separate.

The spell Ant Haul makes much more sense after you see how the bonuses from Bull's Strength work (treats your strength as higher for purposes of Carrying Capacity).

Blackfoot
June 1st, 2012, 03:21
I dunno. This is the first real problem I've run into with the PF rules. Doesn't make much sense. I understand the concept of simplifying effects to reduce overhead and speed play... but... if I increase or decrease my strength.. I expect to be able to carry more... or less.