Kickstarter Project Idea Thread

[ddavison]

We want to collect some thoughts on the best kickstarter projects that would allow us to expand our development and/or advertising budget to improve Fantasy Grounds or grow the user base. Please post your thoughts and comments here and I'll go back and update the first post in the thread with changes as we go. Moon_wizard or I will update it with estimated goals we would need and we could use your help figuring out the best donation levels and features to include.

I believe the minimum goals are always $5000. Some of these could require much more than that. What do the contributors get out of each?

Kickstarter Project
#1 - iPad client for Fantasy Grounds
Goal: $5000 (not set)
Funding Levels: Not Set
#1 Character Sheet
a. One page per tab
b. Pass-through of double-click actions and button presses
c. Linking updates, inserts, edits, deletes to GM character sheet and combat tracker
d. Portrait assign - from photo library or from camera
#2 Chat log
a. one page for main chat
b. Additional pages for different whispers
c. easy selection of whisper target
d. dice and hotkeys visible on sub-page
e. roll to chat window supported from dice and hotkey page
#3 Map page(s)
a. One map or handout shown at a time
b. sub-pages display additional handouts
c. non-modal alerts indicate activity on chat window, images, etc.
d. pan left and right
e. pinch to zoom and shrink
f. save to photo library
#4 Combat tracker page
a. Player view of combat tracker
b. Detailed entry view

Possibly Include an Android support level inside the project to allow people to contribute towards the overall goal and also to an Android version. It may need to be a separate project altogether.

Description:
A multi-page iPad application that can connect with and play a game of Fantasy Grounds. The license cost would probably be separate from normal Lite and Full licenses, but there may be a cheaper upgrade option or a discount for people who already own one of the other license types.

I envision that there would be a separate page for the chat, combat tracker, character sheet and each handout. Activity on any tab would create some visual notification for you to switch it to the forefront. It would intelligently use multi-touch to improve the experience.

#2 - Expand reach of Fantasy Grounds to more conventions
Goal: Variable
Funding Levels: Not Set
Description:
This funding would allow us to ship our booth to various locations throughout the country (or buy versions for other countries) and then hire local FG community members to run the booth during those conventions. As an example, Gen Con typically costs us around $3000 to attend and Moon_wizard and I run the booth with one or two helpers. Our volunteers did it out of love for the product and for free entrance to the show... and little else.

#3 - Build Fantasy Grounds Lobby
Goal: Not Set
Funding Levels: Not Set
#1 Global public chat room
a. available from launch panel
b. allow public chat
c. allow whispers
d. allow blocking users
#2 Ruleset specific chat rooms
a. Add ability to create a room that doesn't exist... limited on the existence of a ruleset you own
b. Auto-join existing ruleset room when one is already started
c. List available rooms to global chat room members and display # of users active in each room
#3 Add announcements
a. Can leave FG running in lobby mode with an announcement active and visible at all times. (i.e., Castles and Crusades game with 2 openings starting at 7pm. Meet in lobby at 6:30 GMT if interested in joining.)
b. Link announcement, open slots and game times with Game Calendar posting
#4 Invite Player
a. send connection information directly to player

Awards:
- Access to early beta
- Titles that display differently after launch (i.e. Gold level sponsor, Silver level Sponsor, Bronze level Sponsor)
- Preference on Announcements placement (sort by sponsor level so your posting will always be at the top)

Description:
Build some basic functionality into the Launch window to allow a global lobby for running games and matching players and GMs who may not know each other previously. Allow GMs and Players to "Like" each other and share their positive experiences with others. Ability to block/ignore users. Ability to interface with the Game Calendar to update last run dates, post openings (for when you are off-line) sign up for games, etc.

#4 - Ruleset Builder application
Goal: Not Set
Funding Levels: Not Set
#1 Character Sheet builder. It will allow customization of
a. the tabs and tab names. Creating a space for additional elements on each
b. named sections which can be placed on tabs or moved from one tab to another
c. elements place inside sections. Basic list of options, such as labels, text boxes, number boxes, option/radio buttons, dropdowns, toggles and buttons
d. automatic anchoring of controls in a relative or fixed format.
e. element script library to allow for things like allowing drag and drop, double-clicking, formulas built off other element values, etc.
#2 Frame graphics editor with a WYSIWYG (what you see is what you get) editor for layout purposes
a. Set the background and make it easier to layout with tiling for expanding sizes
b. Set the frames for any windows. Default will be included.
c. Skin creator that can be built for multiple looks on the same ruleset. (this might be usable for existing rulesets but may not be due to backward compatibility issues.)
#3 NPC creator
a. customize tabs
b. customize sections and elements
c. customize drag and drop to character window and combat tracker functionality
#4 Combat tracker creator
a. customize which elements from the PC character sheet and NPC will be included
b. add additional elements
c. provide built-in script library with common scenarios covered (i.e. reset initiative, re-order, move up, move down, heal, roll against all, apply damage or effect to all)


Description: Create a GUI (Graphical User Interface) application that allows less technical users to create a basic ruleset.

#5 - Map Enhancements
Description:
#1 Built-in Layer support
#2 Line of Sight layer creator
#3 Map builder

#6 - Cloud Storage
Description:
Save characters (for players) or entire campaign (for GMs) directly to the cloud. Allow easy download/upload from cloud.

#7 HeroLab Expanded support
Description:
Allow more herolab import/export options for different systems. Provide a herolab mapping builder that reads through a herolab export and allows it to be mapped to any Fantasy Grounds ruleset.

#8 PCGen Exanded Support
Description:
Allow more PCGen import/export options for different systems. Provide a PCGen mapping builder that reads through a PCGen export and allows it to be mapped to any Fantasy Grounds ruleset.

#9 Library module builder
Description:
An external tool that can be pointed to an existing ruleset and allows easier entry of library modules. It would allow entries of NPCs, items, story elements, indexed catalogs of elements, collapsible sections and table of contents.

[Mellock]

Some things I wouldn't immediately use myself, but would actually contribute to are

-More herolabs support. import/export features, and more rulesets being able to do it.
-licensing costs. This may not even be doable, or perhaps it's not a good idea to disclose amounts needed, but I'd pony op a little to have FG2 acquire licensing for some extra rulesets, like Warhammer, or a few 5e products.

[arotter]

Great idea! :D

My top three list would be:

Cloud storage: Either something from FG itself or something shared like Dropbox or SkyDrive. I know that putting shared data modules could get messy again regarding copyright, but it would be great if we could save the campaign.xml, tokens, maps, and so on in a cloud.
Dynamic Line of Sight: Doesn't have to automatically recognize the map layout, something manual like in MapTools would be good enough (let us draw a vector based layout in a hidden layer and use that data to show players only those parts of the map and tokens their character can actually see).
Ruleset support for EarthDawn Third Edition: Well... I'm an ED fanboy, so what else can I say? :p

[phantomwhale]

The iPad app seems like perfect fodder for kickstarter - it's a discrete, large chunk of work that probably won't get done otherwise and it's not too clear if there is the right sized market for it. All of which makes it well placed for kickstarting !

[mr_h]

Character Sheet Generator/Creator - An program to create simple character sheets for FG. It could take a image of a character sheet and let you set the particular fields. Full rulesets are nice, but since technically all you need for a game is a character sheet, this might greatly expand the # of game types that could be played. (IE, I want to play Toon or Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles or Teenagers from Outer Space, or Star Frontiers. Just having a char sheet would enable me to do so).

This is the sort of app I think everyone could use (I dont have a tablet, nor do I go to conventions and I probably wouldn't spend much time in a lobby).

[Nestor]

As mentioned in the previous post:

Dynamic line of site/ fog of war would be incredible, I would be happy to donate for this.

[Grey Mage]

Some sort of tool to create/import/alter data into library modules. There are lots of us out there with lots of data from other programs (PC Gen, RPGXplorer, HeroLab, etc.) that would love to have a way to take all those 3rd party sources we worked so diligently inputting data into and import them into library modules...

A simple, easy to use tool to do this is WAY overdue... several people have talked about it in the forums, but ultimately for one reason or another, it has never gotten off the ground.

A Kickstarter project is the perfect vehicle to do this.

[osarusan]

I would do the iPad app, but try to build it with future extensibility in mind.

Seriously, the iPad/other tablets are the way to go. A client that could be run in-browser, on multiple devices and such would be a killer gaming app, and it seems like the first company to do that is pretty much going to own that market.

Some notes on Kickstarter, as I have had a successful project myself:

1) start building up an audience for the project at least 1 month in advance.
2) there is no minimum goal, but you could set your goal at whatever you think it will cost to make the iPad app, and then if you reach 200% or 300% or higher increments of that goal, you will add additional features to the app.
3) people eat up iPad apps like candy on Kickstarter, so you will probably have a very good response.
4) you DEFINITELY need a video, narrated/hosted by yourself, to make a personal human connection with your audience. It doesn't need to be fancy, just engaging.

What you need to do is think of specific rewards for backers though. For example, $1 to just show support, gets you insider access to the project. $20 gets you an FG user license that can be used on the iPad/browser/PC client. $40 gets you a DM license. $100 get you a DM license, a few user licenses to give to friends, and some modules to start with... and so on like that. It's good to get creative and personal with the high level rewards, too.

Well, that's way more than 2 cents worth, so I'll leave it at that. ;)

[Iceman]

I think this is the MOST needed item that would convince more people to use FG. And it is really not that tough. PCGEN is free, so if FG would output to a PCG file and whatever needed to be done was done to allow the PCGEN output to be correctly imported into FG then it would essentially be done. But to accomplish the ultimate goal of maintaining characters FG must still implement some sort of DM approval checkbox, perhaps on a page by page basis in FG. That way changes a player makes are put in red next to the already approved stat so the DM can quickly view and approve them and provide the fresh sheet to the player.

When FG devs recognize the need for character management within the program I believe it will become a much more viable product.


Character Sheet Generator/Creator - An program to create simple character sheets for FG. It could take a image of a character sheet and let you set the particular fields. Full rulesets are nice, but since technically all you need for a game is a character sheet, this might greatly expand the # of game types that could be played. (IE, I want to play Toon or Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles or Teenagers from Outer Space, or Star Frontiers. Just having a char sheet would enable me to do so).

This is the sort of app I think everyone could use (I dont have a tablet, nor do I go to conventions and I probably wouldn't spend much time in a lobby).

[harsten]

iPad App gets my vote and would totally get my money.

[adminwheel3]

Can I give you my money now??!!

[phantomwhale]

Re: Iceman / Mr_h's points (which are quite different) there are two ways FGII could go. Either take on the character generation / validation market (which I think they shouldn't do - it would stretch the app too far) or accept imports from other tools designed for this.

They have already gone the latter route with any early experiment with importing characters from Hero Lab, although in there own words this was a costly development exercise that probably hasn't paid back much. I guess there is a wide spread of tool out there already with no clear market leader, so it's hard to have the time to support them all.

Having offline support for character improvements / GM approval MIGHT lead to more sales of the rulesets (currently only the GM needs the ruleset, as players use that ruleset whilst playing the game). For offline character stuff, player's would need the ruleset too. But then again, this might also be the reason it's not a good direction for FGII development, as player's may not be too enticed to buy rulesets for this function, making it wasted development effort.

Mr_h rasied a good but different point that essentially the foundations core ruleset gives you 90% of what you need to run ANY RPG - image / token sharing, chat window, dice rolls, story elements and so forth. The missing 10% is the character sheet (everything else, NPCs, combat tracker, can be done by the GM on pen and paper just like a face to face game). So some BASIC character sheet generator for non-developers to put together a bunch of labels, text fields, text boxes and number fields would help bring otherwise too obscure RPGs to the FGII table.

I think Mr_H's suggestion would help strengthen the current FGII offering, which is a virtual tabletop to play games upon. Whilst I would obviously love an all-encompassing tool for managing and playing the game, I wonder if character management wouldn't be too much, esp. as it would need to be added differently to each ruleset (I really don't fancy writing a Savage Worlds character validator, when HeroLab does it brilliantly for me).

[Trenloe]

I wonder if character management wouldn't be too much, esp. as it would need to be added differently to each ruleset (I really don't fancy writing a Savage Worlds character validator, when HeroLab does it brilliantly for me).
And it would need to be kept up-to-date with any upgrades/additions to the Third Party character tool chosen - something which is outside the control of Smiteworks which is always an issue and can be a big development drain.

One basic idea - which is not character management/checking I know but may help a little with the whole process. What if someone who knows XML/XSL a lot better than me put together some XML stylesheets that could be used with the character XML exported from FG to produce a "human readable" HTML version of the character outside of FG for players and GMs to view easily? Would that help in keeping track of characters or not?

[Valarian]

One basic idea - which is not character management/checking I know but may help a little with the whole process. What if someone who knows XML/XSL a lot better than me put together some XML stylesheets that could be used with the character XML exported from FG to produce a "human readable" HTML version of the character outside of FG for players and GMs to view easily? Would that help in keeping track of characters or not?
I did a proof of concept (https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showpost.php?p=65184&postcount=15) for this a while ago. It'd need an XSLT call built in to FG2 to use directly from the software.

[Valarian]

Character Sheet Generator/Creator - An program to create simple character sheets for FG. It could take a image of a character sheet and let you set the particular fields. Full rulesets are nice, but since technically all you need for a game is a character sheet, this might greatly expand the # of game types that could be played. (IE, I want to play Toon or Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles or Teenagers from Outer Space, or Star Frontiers. Just having a char sheet would enable me to do so).
I like this idea. A designer tool that would allow you to graphically (drag & drop) build up a character sheet (and possibly NPC sheet, combat tracker, etc.), using a library of graphical objects (e.g. tab bar, label, text field, number field, checkbox). The tool would generate the XML behind the graphical objects, which would have properties and event triggers (that you could put script in to).

There are IDE engines that might be able to be used for this (e.g. Eclipse), extending their base functionality with a plugin.

[VenomousFiligree]

I like this idea. A designer tool that would allow you to graphically (drag & drop) build up a character sheet (and possibly NPC sheet, combat tracker, etc.), using a library of graphical objects (e.g. tab bar, label, text field, number field, checkbox). The tool would generate the XML behind the graphical objects, which would have properties and event triggers (that you could put script in to).

There are IDE engines that might be able to be used for this (e.g. Eclipse), extending their base functionality with a plugin.
+1

This would be great for all the indie games out there! :)

[phantomwhale]

It's another nice project, like the iPad one, that would have a clearly defined audience (FGII users who want modest support for "that other game").

There is a small issue of if such a tool did get written, which ruleset would it officiallly run on top of. Foundations Core isn't strictly supported by Smiteworks.

From a development point of view I would love to see Smiteworks re-engineer Fantasy Grounds to be much better able to support a default ruleset with 80% of core features, and then the rulesets (4E and others) shrunk to only extend the specific bits they add onto that. This would give you that core ruleset, under Smiteworks care, to put this "custom character sheet" ruleset on top of.

Of course, this would be a terrible kickstarter as (a) It's a massive chunk of work and (b) it's very un-sexy to sell, unlike the iPad app / character sheet generator. But without it, I wonder how easy it would be to do the character sheet generator and have it well supported ?

[Moon Wizard]

Character Conversion
Another option that I have been tossing back and forth here is making the character converter code publicly available so that the community can contribute to other game systems, other export/import options, etc.

More core feature support
I'm tempted to push back new image features to do this, since it will make all game systems better and allow new ones to be made faster. However, as phantomwhale pointed out, it's un-sexy and unlikely to improve sales in the near term, unlike image improvements.

Character sheet designer
Technically, someone could do this today completely outside of FG. Create a utility that will export a ruleset file defining a character sheet.

Regards,
JPG

[joshuha]

Not a great quality video but I was working on a ruleset a long time ago on building a sheet from within FG, saving the coordinates/sizes/labels off to it's own area in the DB then having players see a dynamically rendered version of that. It was in the prototype phase and I never really got too far with it but that is another option.

Benefits of that approach are easy of use for the end user and a kind of WYSIWYG approach. However, out of app would allow for easier things like using images for a background that would be hard for an in app charsheet builder.

https://dl.dropbox.com/u/4606305/Misc/builder.avi

[phantomwhale]

Not a great quality video but I was working on a ruleset a long time ago on building a sheet from within FG, saving the coordinates/sizes/labels off to it's own area in the DB then having players see a dynamically rendered version of that. It was in the prototype phase and I never really got too far with it but that is another option.

Benefits of that approach are easy of use for the end user and a kind of WYSIWYG approach. However, out of app would allow for easier things like using images for a background that would be hard for an in app charsheet builder.

https://dl.dropbox.com/u/4606305/Misc/builder.avi

Ah - I was digging around for that link ! I remembered your work there and wondered if it had got any further.

Like you say, you'd really need to look at a few examples of what requirements you would need at a bare minimum for dynamic character sheet building to decide if it's something you could wrestle into the application, or something better served by an external tool.

[osarusan]

The character sheet designer would be a killer app, I think.

Honestly, any VTT's most important features are the ones that fall outside of any ruleset -- tokens, map, combat trackers, item lists, image sharing, and so on. The character sheets are also very important, and one of FG's strongest points -- but they are also the hardest thing to customize.

If there were some sort of drag-and-drop character sheet builder that looked as good as the current FG sheets, it would be a total revolution in the VTT I think. FG is hands-down the most beautiful VTT already, and something like that would make it the most flexible too.

It would also take a lot of work off of the shoulders of the developers and put it into the hands of the fans, who are happy to design away when it is easy enough for them to do so. Then release a cross-platform app and build in a few variant skins, and you don't even need to worry that much about building in ruleset functionality for various systems.

[VenomousFiligree]

If you were to have a character sheet builder, then it would need a Foundation Core style ruleset to go with it.

[phantomwhale]

Exactly - one of FGIIs strengths is it's a highly configurable, programmable and powerful platform to write almost any form of shared VTT experience on top of. The trade off has been that most of the functionality can be re-written between rulesets, and the fall out of that has been a lack of common functionality which you get "for free".

Foundations Core does exist (has it's own forum thread), but as I wrote a few posts back, it's development is not in the hands of Smiteworks. And the reason for that goes back to that flexibility I spoke about above leading to maintaining this common ruleset would be too much overhead and mean lost new features (which drives the app sales and keeps customers happy).

So the character sheet builder idea does sound awesome, but I think that common ruleset part may become an issue there. But this was all said a few posts back, so I'll stop repeating myself.

[Doswelk]

How about this (might not work I admit):

In each ruleset somewhere you define the window classes that the ruleset uses. What if the designer software when started could be told what files contained your windowclass reference files and read them?

Have the software default to using the basic window classes (3.5e I suppose) then if you have no idea/desire to code then you can build a character sheet using the "default" settings.

Thoughts?

Sorry if someone already mentioned this I have not had time to fully read this thread.

[PoisonAlchemist]

I'm going to echo what has been said, a visual drag-and-drop 1-to-20 character builder would make me throw my money at you hand over fist, especially if it was supported in whatever ruleset I have already purchased. While I like hero lab in theory I disagree with their pricing and DRM so I would absolutely be willing to pay 20, even 30 USD if it was as sexy and flexible as FG, could export into FG as well as text, and let me use the rule sets I already purchased. When planning a character the class, archetype, stats, and feats fluctuate a lot and I am desperate to have a visual road map that checks feat dependencies. Skills, saves, and the rest can all be calculated later. Even something so simple and basic as that would be appreciated.

I digress, as much as I would love, love, love, for there to be a character generator with FG, it is probably impractical. There is a reason why there are no clones of Hero Lab and Lone Wolf charges $125 for all the PFRPG sources. Character generation is filled with dependencies and contingencies, and the whole process is non-linear. It is immensely difficult to program.

In reality the iPad app is much more practical and equally valuable. Touch screens and laptops are becoming mainstays at the gaming table and if the normal FG interface cannot handle it (Radial menus! Middle mouse scrolling!) FG will fall behind. I would be willing to pay for a 'portable' version, with a discount since I own a full license 5, maybe 10 USD. It would have to be compatible with at least some non-apple things though. Really, some work should just be done to eliminate the things that make FG unusable without a mouse and you wouldn't have to have a separate project.

I really like the lobby idea, it definitely should happen at some point in the future as the forum and calendar sometimes just don't cut it. However, the person count on the forums is always rather anemic. An empty lobby is a sad, sad place, and looks poorly for new or prospective buyers in a Demo version. You would need a much larger customer base, but as far as a kickstarter to have you at conventions, not so much. You have a very devoted fan base, you need to figure out how to mobilize us into a word-of-mouth army.

Also I don't want what Gray Mage said to get lost, letting your user base work for you is always valuable.

[Motosage]

The iPad app seems like perfect fodder for kickstarter - it's a discrete, large chunk of work that probably won't get done otherwise and it's not too clear if there is the right sized market for it. All of which makes it well placed for kickstarting !

I for one would love to see a iPad app but do not forget Android in this. I have a iPad but I have other players that own Android tables and with over millions iPad's and tables bing sold a year this is only a growing market. I for one would throw my money in on this type of kickstarter.

Th app could be setup as a player client app with another app for character creation plus one app for module or adventure creation. I do think that the DM still needs to run the game on a Land wired PC for speed and bandwidth issues.

Randy Smith
Sent from my iPad.

[damned]

...make me throw my money at you hand over fist...
...20, even 30 USD if it was as sexy and flexible as FG...
...I would be willing to pay for a 'portable' version, with a discount since I own a full license 5, maybe 10 USD...

these sorts of numbers are probably minimums - eg dd has suggested that the target might be $5000 for each of these "projects". they wont fly at $5 a pop - you would be needing to pay $25 a pop on each, i think, as a minimum - and then it would still take you 200 interested parties...

personally none of the projects has really grabed me. the portal sounded good - it really did - but trenloe's argument is sound to my way of thinking. i check the forums while at work etc but i rarely fire up fg while at work! i have done a few times but not too often... i think the tablet app shoudl be on your list - but only because of the serious proliferation of tablet devices - and it shoudl definitely include an android version (i have 3 android tablets and 2 android phones) - however im not sure that i would ever use one for fg - the laptop is so much easier...

i dont know how complicated this is - but i think that a better system is needed for all the various rulesets to stick with the core ruleset development... it would be fantastic if rulesets could all be coded as extensions rather than building a new ruleset which then has to be completely maintained independantly - or slowly fall behind in features. i play/gm c&c - mostly because its pretty flexible and fast and easy and old school. i chose it specifically because there was a ruleset for it. since then i have bought 4 hardcover and 5 softcover c&c rulebooks, a good number of modules - both physical and electronic. what im getting at is i would happily pay $50 or $100 for the c&c ruleset to be further developed and maintained (even though i really dont know im missing out on) but i still dont think that would help as the userbase - particularly for c&c is so small. for it to be worth anyones while i think the would probably want $1000 minimum and they would still be working for peanuts. would i pay more myself - probably not - but i might if it was sorceror continuing the development as he has done so much already.

anyways i think i digressed. my main point was i think you really need to very carefully pick your first kickstarter project and plug it madly to everyone who has ever bought fg to give it a chance of success....

[Griogre]

The one suggestion for a project for kickstarter funding that I have would be to build a ruleset builder application that made character sheets and other ruleset parts that could be used in ruleset creation. This would mean that most RPGs rulesets could be created with this one ruleset application.

My idea is similar to mr_h’s idea, but I would like to tie the builder into a specific ruleset. I would like to see the ruleset builder create something like a three tab page character sheet tied to a combat tracker and two tab page monster sheets also tied to a combat tracker.

Starting with the character sheet, I would make about 2/3rds of the first page be stats and the builder would allow you to drag and drop a box that holds a number stat, text label and a variable name. So you would have room for about 12 rows of stat boxes. Aside from the obvious physical/mental stats, there could be stats like Level or Rank. My idea is you could drag and drop a different type of number box for derived stats, say another 3 columns worth. The derived stat boxes would display numbers based on formulas attached to the stat box that were either based on the numeric stat box values or a straight formula, i.e. Str / 2 round down might be one. The derived boxes would have a double click property that would roll one or more dice based on a formula entered, with the creator being about to pick exploding dice or whatever type of throw they need. You could place either type of box in any row or column position, whatever made sense for the character sheet. I'm thinking skill, derived attributes or stat checks here – basically all non-combat in the top part of the first tab page.

The bottom third of the first page would be very similar at first to the top but it’s for combat. Say four columns with a four stat boxes a line with alternating numeric boxes and derived stat boxes created with formulas. I'm thinking Attack stat, derived to hit; Damage "stat" (i.e. a dice cup), derived damage - in pairs. I’ve also been loose on the number of rows in each section because I would like to see a line separating these sections of boxes that you could just drag up or down in the character sheet creator to get more or less area for each section of non-combat or combat boxes.

So why the different combat section, if they have the same box types? Because, in the attack section of the first page, I would like to be able to compare an attack "roll" with one of say 6-10 configurable columns on the combat tracker and declare a hit or miss based on a ring targeted token on a displayed map or by drag and dropping the attack roll unto the monster on the map or combat tracker. Likewise you would damage a monster/NPC by dropping damage on it by double clicking the damage derived stat box of the attack when a token on the map is targeted or by dropping the damage roll on the monster/NPC token or combat tracker entry. I want to be able to tie formulas in the attack section to combat tracker stat boxes.

For the other two tab pages on the character sheet I would like an inventory page with a small section for wealth at the bottom. On the last tab, I’d like a section for notes. Certainly other pages are possible like 4E’s power page, and 3.5 or Pathfinder’s spell/attack pages.

Next I would like a combat tracker generator. I would like a simple combat tracker generator tool also integrated into the ruleset builder. Monsters/NPCs rarely have a more than a handful of defenses and things to track in combat like wounds/damage. These columns would be named by the creator and could be included in attack and damage calculations from both the character and monster sheets. And a monster sheet would be derived in part from these things on the combat tracker. For example for 4E monsters have an AC, Reflex, Will, and Fort. Other versions of D&D and C&C are similar just instead of defenses Reflex, Will, Fort, Spells, etc. the columns are saves. For Savage Worlds it’s Parry, Toughness, and wound levels. Ars Magica is similar, with defense, soak, and wound levels. Conveniently, in most RPGs PCs usually have the same type of defenses as monsters. But I would like to have different stat boxes on the tracker for PCs if necessary.

Finally, I’d like to have the ruleset generator build a monster sheet derived from combat tracker monster defenses and a monster sheet creator with the ability to drag and drop numeric stat boxes and derived stat boxes for non-combat and combat rolls. The first tab page of the monster/NPC sheet would have all the columns from the tracker plus any other numeric stat boxes and derived stats boxes needed. The second tab page would be for "fluff" text, monster tactics, notes, etc.

Thus my idea is I would love to see a kickstarter that funds a *ruleset* generator with a character sheet, combat tracker, and monster sheet generators. One of the things that constrains Fantasy Grounds is there are only a handful of people currently capable and who have the time to build and maintain rulesets. Building a tool that would allow the community members to easily create rulesets would give FG a huge advantage in versatility compared to other virtual table tops and lead to an explosion of available rulesets.

It’s convenient that the project could also be broken down into different funding levels with just a character sheet, then including a monster sheet and then including an integrated combat tracker being obvious levels of funding.

[damned]

if that were possile to achieve - i might never write a ruleset but i would surely use someones ruleset... so yes - i would pay for it.

[Valarian]

The one suggestion for a project for kickstarter funding that I have would be to build a ruleset builder application that made character sheets and other ruleset parts that could be used in ruleset creation. This would mean that most RPGs rulesets could be created with this one ruleset application.

My idea is similar to mr_h’s idea, but I would like to tie the builder into a specific ruleset. I would like to see the ruleset builder create something like a three tab page character sheet tied to a combat tracker and two tab page monster sheets also tied to a combat tracker.
I think this is too restrictive. I'd say that the Window, Frame and Tab controls would also have to be defined as usable controls, as with an IDE (interactive development environment) for Java or C#. The difference being that, instead of building up C# or Java code, the ruleset generator would build up XML code with embedded Lua scripts.

For combat tracker integration, I'd love to have the ability to drag and drop a control from the character sheet or NPC sheet and have it display on the combat tracker, with a link to the character sheet or NPC sheet it came from.


Thus my idea is I would love to see a kickstarter that funds a *ruleset* generator with a character sheet, combat tracker, and monster sheet generators. One of the things that constrains Fantasy Grounds is there are only a handful of people currently capable and who have the time to build and maintain rulesets. Building a tool that would allow the community members to easily create rulesets would give FG a huge advantage in versatility compared to other virtual table tops and lead to an explosion of available rulesets.
Agreed. It's something that I greatly miss from GRiP (if anyone remembers that early VTT).


It’s convenient that the project could also be broken down into different funding levels with just a character sheet, then including a monster sheet and then including an integrated combat tracker being obvious levels of funding.
This would dictate that the NPC creation and Combat Tracker integration would have to be add-on modules to the base ruleset designer IDE.

As to cost. My feeling is that a ruleset designer could easily be as expensive as the Full version (i.e. around $40). It's not required to run a game but, as an option, it opens up a realm of possibility to the GM.

[damned]

i think the ruleset development app is probably worth much more - more like ultimate price - however you dont want to discourage app development - so kickstarting could be good. if it truly enabled better development and not create more half done and forked environments id contribute $100 as I could well enjoy the fruits of someone elses labour :)

[mr_h]

I'd pitch in for a ruleset builder as well. I just think a Character Sheet builder would be faster/easier to do :)

[phantomwhale]

I'd pitch in for a ruleset builder as well. I just think a Character Sheet builder would be faster/easier to do :)

Well then, this is classic kickstarter...

$5,000 funding target - character sheet builder
$7,500 stretch goal - we'll add more funky controls to the character sheet
$10,000 stretch goal - we'll add a basic combat tracker
$15K - combat tracker gets AWESOMENESS added too
etc...
(numbers are off the top of my head, by the way !)

Then you need your contribution levels. E.g. if it's a $25 pledge to get the ruleset automater, then why would I bid $100 ? Is there something specific that can be offered to higher level bidders ? Not sure about this one...

[PoisonAlchemist]

these sorts of numbers are probably minimums - eg dd has suggested that the target might be $5000 for each of these "projects". they wont fly at $5 a pop - you would be needing to pay $25 a pop on each, i think, as a minimum - and then it would still take you 200 interested parties...

I think you misunderstood, I was talking post-kickstarter. Once you have created something via kickstarter nothing says you have to give it away for free or only to the people who kickstarted.

[Griogre]

Well then, this is classic kickstarter...

$5,000 funding target - character sheet builder
$7,500 stretch goal - we'll add more funky controls to the character sheet
$10,000 stretch goal - we'll add a basic combat tracker
$15K - combat tracker gets AWESOMENESS added too
etc...
(numbers are off the top of my head, by the way !)

Then you need your contribution levels. E.g. if it's a $25 pledge to get the ruleset automater, then why would I bid $100 ? Is there something specific that can be offered to higher level bidders ? Not sure about this one...

Because Smiteworks has existing products they have some flexibly. Often higher kickstarter funding levels are a limited number of slots and unique items. So they can do things at certain pledge levels like get the kickstarter project and one of everything in the FG store - but FG licences, or at a certain pledge level you get the project and an upgrade to an ultimate license. They might also do stuff like you get to choose a unique custom alias that is yours forever or you get to use your forum name as your alias. Basically mix and match items in the store for a bit of discount and anything else creative they can come up with.

[bdf1992]

Another quick idea that would work pretty well.

I didn't see this mentioned but a map maker that you can use while dming.

If anyone has used rpg maker then it would work like that.
you upload tile-sets and set the grids and you can just paint the tiles on.

I think this would make it alot easier to make a quick map if i needed one.
Also along with more map thing dynamic Fog of war things.
Like if i player has 60ft vision he can only see 12 squares from his token.

A lobby would be awesome as mentioned above, i know a lot of us have our own skype, ect groups that we make games with but i would use something like this, even an rss feed that everyone is plugged into would do.
EDIT: i added this as i could find one already on there
https://fg2app.idea.informer.com/proj/?ia=48971

I like the ipad idea but i sadly don't have one so it's luster kinda dies out with me when i can't use it :(

Also, this would have to probably be more than one single thing implemented to get people interested. If it's JUST the rule-set thing players wont wont it so they wont give money. IF it's JUST the handheld device thing people without the means to use it wont give money, but it it's many things that caters to all players and dms then ya it would be a lot easier to get everyone involved.

I mean where else you gonna get this good of a program? Why not make it even better?

[someoneinatree]

So far my favourites are:

1. I-pad client.

2. FG Game Lobby (which I think would tie in to a website Game Calendar upgrade so that the two mirror each other)

3. Dynamic Line-of-Sight


I understand the desire for the core improvements, and I think the Character Sheet generator is a great idea... I'm just not sure its the right kind of project for Kickstarter funding.

[leozelig]

So far my favourites are:

1. iPad client.

2. FG Game Lobby (which I think would tie in to a website Game Calendar upgrade so that the two mirror each other)

3. Dynamic Line-of-Sight



Great list!

I would also like to see some of the excellent features that are in the 4e ruleset included in the core program - and therefore available in other rulesets. I use OSRIC, for example, and it would be so great to have some of the basic 4e functions like double-click to roll, a combat tracker that the players can see, holding ctrl to activate mouse wheel adjustments, pre-loaded encounters, etc. I don't know how difficult it would be to do that.

[osarusan]

Then you need your contribution levels. E.g. if it's a $25 pledge to get the ruleset automater, then why would I bid $100 ? Is there something specific that can be offered to higher level bidders ? Not sure about this one...

Lots of people just do it because they believe in the funding method that Kickstarter uses and want to support the project. Most Kickstarters know they are not just buying a product -- they are becoming patrons for it, and they are happy to pay more out of a desire to support.

But you are encouraged to create many different reward levels containing things that will only be available through backing on Kickstarter. For example, having your name in the program credits, or getting an exclusive wallpaper or dice skin or something that doesn't necessarily change the functionality of the program, but something that is a special mark for backers. Some projects make t-shirts, magnets, or other fun PR trinkets. Things like that.

[Mellock]

Just though I'd add a little +1 on the character sheet creation tool. Again, not something I'd personally use since I'm happy with current offerings, but I can see how this would be a great boon to the community in general. I'd back it.

[Motosage]

What this kickstart idea boils down to is this do you plan on expanding your current customer base or do you plan on simply giving more depth to the customers that you have. adding bells and whistles to the product you currently have give more depth to your customers expanding this product to new and different platforms has the potential to add more customers to your customer base. Adding more modules and add-ons that can be purchased would leverage your existing customers a known financial quantity. Expanding the application to new platforms has the potential to expand your customer base plus position yourself to were the most growth in the industry is happening. If this product can be the first of its kind in this snitch in the market it could set the standards. I am of course talking about the portable device market. Keep in mind that programs in the portable device market do not have to act or feel like the programs in the standard computer industry. Many programs in this industry leverage the portable nature of the device itself to interact with the program, like shaking the device to roll dice. Software on this platform does not have to be fully functional or equivalent to that on a standard desktop system. Lastly keep in mind that you do not have to do all the programming yourself, you could outsource to programmers who have experience on these platforms. The bottom line is where would you like to position this company to grow.

Randy

[bdf1992]

Another idea

SPELLCHECK...i want it so bad

[damned]

ha... no way... can you imagine spell checker trying to deal with character names, place names, monster names, slang chat etc?

[leozelig]

Character Conversion
Another option that I have been tossing back and forth here is making the character converter code publicly available so that the community can contribute to other game systems, other export/import options, etc.

More core feature support
I'm tempted to push back new image features to do this, since it will make all game systems better and allow new ones to be made faster. However, as phantomwhale pointed out, it's un-sexy and unlikely to improve sales in the near term, unlike image improvements.

Character sheet designer
Technically, someone could do this today completely outside of FG. Create a utility that will export a ruleset file defining a character sheet.

Regards,
JPG

Un-sexy maybe, but I would be willing to contribute for #2 and #3. If you can combine a customizable character sheet with many of the core features available in the 4e ruleset, you will have improved the product in a significant way.

I would like to see some map-related upgrades, too - line of sight and some basic drawing tools (besides draw and erase).

[ddavison]

I added several more items to the first post based on feedback received and additional ideas that spawned for me. So far, I think the character sheet/ruleset builder is getting the most traction and would probably be tackled first. The ipad/android app is a close second I think and one that might have a greater importance to the longevity of Fantasy Grounds, IMO.

[Crowley72]

My thoughts ...

#1 Ipad client for Fantasy Grounds: I agree that building a new client for the Ipad would draw in new people. I would rate this a 7 out of 10.

#2 Expand reach of Fantasy grounds to more conventions: This is probably the best form of advertising. Your target the audience that will likely buy into the system, and the costs can be kept low. You could hand out CD's with a "try before you buy" client that will let people host and play the game for 30 days. Having a PC at the booth linked to your idea #3 (Lobby) would let them see the friendly (and growing) community as well. I would rate this a 7 out of 10.

#3 Build Fantasy Grounds lobby: This could bring the existing community closer, and I am all for that. Also see #2. You could market this TO conventions as well - maybe become THE software used to run the special games at the Cons. Heh, would be cool to see Will Wheaton use FG2 in a podcast for their yearly session. That kind of advertising would be priceless. I would rate this a 10 out of 10.

#4 Ruleset Builder Application: I am all for this! I would purchase this separate from the clients as well. This probably will not bring new people in, but it will make the existing user base happy! I would rate this a 10 out of 10.

#5 Map Enhancements: You could leave this for future game enhancements. In the spirit of table top gaming, I like how the map works now and understand that it will get better as Smiteworks grows. I do not however see this as a way to grab new people or RPG developers to the digital realm. I would rate this a 1 out of 10.

#6 Cloud Storage: I am personally against this. I do not use Cloud or in any other way put my data out there for people to hack into. Sure Cloud works for a lot of people. But I enjoy my privacy. I'll leave it at that. 1 out of 10.

#7 HeroLab Expanded support: I do not use HeroLab at this time. If support is given for this, I would look into HeroLab. 5 out of 10.

#8 PCGen Expanded Support: Same as #7, I do not use this. 5 out of 10.

[leozelig]

I added several more items to the first post based on feedback received and additional ideas that spawned for me. So far, I think the character sheet/ruleset builder is getting the most traction and would probably be tackled first. The ipad/android app is a close second I think and one that might have a greater importance to the longevity of Fantasy Grounds, IMO.

The list looks great!

Any idea when you will officially start accepting contributions?

[mr_h]

I added several more items to the first post based on feedback received and additional ideas that spawned for me. So far, I think the character sheet/ruleset builder is getting the most traction and would probably be tackled first. The ipad/android app is a close second I think and one that might have a greater importance to the longevity of Fantasy Grounds, IMO.

Yay! I'm contributing!

:D

[zpu]

What if Fantasy Grounds came with a good variety of skins and token types upon purchase? I know that some of the rulesets and Fantasy Grounds has base skins, I'm talking about themed skins for players and GMs. You would have the standard, Fantasy, Modern, and Science Fiction, but in addition you could add in things like:

Steampunk (Always a popular choice)
Anime/Cartoon (Another popular choice)
Jungle
Stone Age/Barbaric
Shaman/Mage
Necromancy/Macabre
Vampiric
Color Options for the Originals/Ruleset Skins

I think things of this nature will give new users a lot more options to ease them into FG itself, and since most of us like variety I think it would work well.

[unerwünscht]

What if Fantasy Grounds came with a good variety of skins and token types upon purchase? I know that some of the rulesets and Fantasy Grounds has base skins, I'm talking about themed skins for players and GMs. You would have the standard, Fantasy, Modern, and Science Fiction, but in addition you could add in things like:

Steampunk (Always a popular choice)
Anime/Cartoon (Another popular choice)
Jungle
Stone Age/Barbaric
Shaman/Mage
Necromancy/Macabre
Vampiric
Color Options for the Originals/Ruleset Skins

I think things of this nature will give new users a lot more options to ease them into FG itself, and since most of us like variety I think it would work well.

I did EXACTLY that, made over 30 skins for FGII and over 40 generic token packs. Both for free and paid. After over a year of hosting them, and only getting a total of 6 downloads I decided they were not worth hosting anymore. I figured either the community as a whole is not interested in these things, or people around here dislike me more than I think. In either case, I don't think themes and generic token packs are worth the time they take to make.

[zpu]

I did EXACTLY that, made over 30 skins for FGII and over 40 generic token packs. Both for free and paid. After over a year of hosting them, and only getting a total of 6 downloads I decided they were not worth hosting anymore. I figured either the community as a whole is not interested in these things, or people around here dislike me more than I think. In either case, I don't think themes and generic token packs are worth the time they take to make.

Thanks for the heads up then :p, you have any snapshots? I would love to see what you came up with.

[unerwünscht]

I can do you one better than that. Give me a few days to update the token packs, and themes to the new styles, and I can put them up in my store for super cheap.

[zpu]

You don't have to go through all the trouble to prep them, just some snapshots of them in action would be nice. A while back I was messing around with the idea of an "8 or 16 bit" skin for myself, thought I would bring up the idea of skins and customs.

[ddavison]

One challenge with the skins is that they are typically ruleset dependent. You can save some work between rulesets, but there will be a certain level of customization required from one ruleset to another just due to the nature of how the various windows are defined in the ruleset xml instead of in a "base" xml shared across all rulesets.

[zpu]

That is an understandable challenge, I've worked with software that had similar restrictions on customization.

[AMonkeyWithAFez]

Ipad app and a GUI interface for users to create their own rulesets would get my money.

[lachancery]

FYI, for those that might have missed it, Pathfinder raised $307K to develop a prototype for MMO technology. They did a great cheerleading job and had a pretty big community to start from.

It's still amazing they were able to raise that much when the only benefits they could give back for the fundraising were stuff like credits listing, community status, a book, t-shirt, flipmats, etc.

I'm looking forward to seeing the Fantasy Grounds Kickstarter campaign!

[ronnke]

From my POV, things like the ruleset builder would be great additions, but their benefits to the community as a whole diminish over time and it's really only the GM that is going to see use. On top of that once a ruleset for x system is made available then the need for the builder is reduced. I don't feel the iPad/Android apps would have any broad uptake. How many people would retire their PC's and resort to a tablet as a preferred platform for play?

In my view, the kickstarter that would have the greatest appeal to backers and be of most benefit to users is the development of the core product. There are many features FG needs to stay competitive with the other (and increasing) VTT options available. FG has been essentially static in its feature set for quite some time.

The new features that I think would keep FG at the top of VTT options for the future is:

*Integrated Web Support. An internal web browser, where hyperlinks can link the items/pages/images/library data within FG and then also open external pages on the web.

*Integrated Sound/Music. Play music/sounds in the background. Play sounds on demand.

*Improved map support. Built in layers, tileable backgrounds, grid options/customisations (such as line thickness, colour), line of sight, fog of war, path tracing.

*Campaign archives. The ability for the GM to send a pre-game campaign archive to players to save time on the file transfers (which FG does poorly).

*Integrated VOIP (and possibly Webcam). With the ability to run the voip server from the game host or connect to an external server.

*Integrated store for the purchased/download of store items. It could easily be part of the internal browser layer.

*Simple things like Facebook and Twitter integration.

Features like this will keep FG on top for a while to come. I would happily throw money at such a kickstarter, and then I would again happily pay for the license upgrade to be able to use the FG ver3.0 that results (a discount for backers would be good but not necessary)

Anyway, nuff said for now, they are just my thoughts.

[primarch]

Hi!

Solid list Ronnke. Having seen and donated to kickstarter projects I think the FG would have little to lose by starting one and a lot to gain in the funds thus gained.

I wonder whether they've decided to go this route and if yes, when?

My money awaits for them to do so. ;)

Primarch

[Doswelk]

The new features that I think would keep FG at the top of VTT options for the future is:
*Integrated Web Support. An internal web browser, where hyperlinks can link the items/pages/images/library data within FG and then also open external pages on the web.
There have been times when I would have found this useful, but not a killer requirement to me as much as just adding PDF support.

*Integrated Sound/Music. Play music/sounds in the background. Play sounds on demand.
This would be nice, but it would have to be pre-loaded sounds to my mind not streamed from GM.

*Improved map support. Built in layers, tileable backgrounds, grid options/customisations (such as line thickness, colour), line of sight, fog of war, path tracing.
Again things I think a lot of people want. :)

*Campaign archives. The ability for the GM to send a pre-game campaign archive to players to save time on the file transfers (which FG does poorly).
You can already do this, just start a second FGII session as a player on the GM PC it will download the cache file, you can then send this file to your players (I do this all the time especially for my open games).

*Integrated VOIP (and possibly Webcam). With the ability to run the voip server from the game host or connect to an external server.
This is the one of the features I am going to have to disagree with you on, Skype. Mumble, Teamspeak all work well FGII does not need this (spend more time on the other ideas).

*Integrated store for the purchased/download of store items. It could easily be part of the internal browser layer.
Not a killer addition to my mind (but if means more people buy my extensions/themes I'll not complain :p)

*Simple things like Facebook and Twitter integration.
ARGH! I know I am in a minority here (probably) but PLEASE keep FGII facebook free!

[ronnke]

ARGH! I know I am in a minority here (probably) but PLEASE keep FGII facebook free!

I'm not a lover of facebook/google+ either, but there is no denying social media is an excellent way to "spread the word", something which a platform like FG benefits from. To have the option is good, whether you use it or not is up to the individual.

Also agreed, PDF is a must have.

Regardless of the wishlist of features, if a kickstarter is up for debate, then I think the core product is in much more need of a facelift than anything else. I'd prefer to see things like the ruleset builder offered as stretch goals.

[AMonkeyWithAFez]

From my POV, things like the ruleset builder would be great additions, but their benefits to the community as a whole diminish over time and it's really only the GM that is going to see use. On top of that once a ruleset for x system is made available then the need for the builder is reduced. I don't feel the iPad/Android apps would have any broad uptake. How many people would retire their PC's and resort to a tablet as a preferred platform for play?


My group and I have been discussing a new game recently. A couple of the guys just don't want to play by FG, they are just so old school that the idea of not being face to face with a bag of chips on the table is just too much for them to handle :)

We got to discussing integrating FG into the local face to face game and that led into thoughts about hooking it up to a big screen TV to use the maps and the combat tracker, etc...

My point is that integrating FG with IPad or other Tablet app support would proved to be a huge draw. A player could use it at the local game table to interface with the game without all the extra space required by a laptop to play... you could also use it to play remote if you liked, but I agree a PC is a little easier to use when playing remote.

I look at the tablets as gateways to attract new clients by offering a solid interface into a tabletop game... people spend money on apps like they drink energy drinks and starbucks coffees... they don't think much about the price they just buy. Some people have a much more difficult time thinking about sitting behind a computer screen to play what they have always done face to face, I am finding a few of my friends just don't want to try it... even though they have no problem playing MMoRPG's for hours on end ;)

[Invain63]

After reading this thread, I would have to say the only kickstarter I would be enthused to support would be "Fantasy Grounds 3":

*much improved map support
*WYSIWYG character sheet design
*built in store for media (tiles, pictures, sounds, tokens, etc) as well as rulesets and adventures. Purchase from the built in store would automatically install into FG3.
*improved modularization of the core functions - i.e. rulesets as extensions.
etc.

Basically, use Kickstarter to forklift FG to its next full version. In order to compete FG needs to occasionally take big steps forward. Incremental feature additions are nice, but the app is in need of a face-lift to keep ahead of the competition IMHO.

Take a look at the current Tabletop Forge kickstarter (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/joshuha/tabletop-forge-the-virtual-tabletop-for-google-han), for example.

-KevinMcD

[Damascus]

I like this idea. A designer tool that would allow you to graphically (drag & drop) build up a character sheet (and possibly NPC sheet, combat tracker, etc.), using a library of graphical objects (e.g. tab bar, label, text field, number field, checkbox). The tool would generate the XML behind the graphical objects, which would have properties and event triggers (that you could put script in to).

There are IDE engines that might be able to be used for this (e.g. Eclipse), extending their base functionality with a plugin.


I think this is the best idea among them, while I love my IPAD I can't see gaming on it with FG with the size limitations of the screen... just my .02

[Zeus]

I think this is the best idea among them, while I love my IPAD I can't see gaming on it with FG with the size limitations of the screen... just my .02

I wonder, since HTML (offline/online) form editors are quite abundant on the net, if its possible/feasible to write a tool which can convert an HTML form into FGII XML <windowclass> format. Might be easier quicker than a full blown IDE solution. Having said that is there an HTML form plugin for Eclipse that could be exploited?

[osarusan]

Take a look at the current Tabletop Forge kickstarter (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/joshuha/tabletop-forge-the-virtual-tabletop-for-google-han), for example.

-KevinMcD

With the way Google is developing Google+ to work with hangouts on as many devices as possible, Tabletop Forge is in place to be a serious FG killer.

I hope the FG kickstarter project starts up soon, or else it may be over before it ever gets off the ground...

[joshuha]

With the way Google is developing Google+ to work with hangouts on as many devices as possible, Tabletop Forge is in place to be a serious FG killer.

I hope the FG kickstarter project starts up soon, or else it may be over before it ever gets off the ground...

Well I am actually still a big fan of FG (I have an ultimate license) but for me it's getting harder to find players as things get more 3.5/4E focused. I just started TTF in February though so I think it will be a bit before I catch up with FG in features.

However, one thing I can do on G+ now that I can't on FG is find players almost instantly. I can start a pickup game and have players in less than an hour. Hard to do that here. That's what the social network gets you.

Anyways, I still check these forums and released my Foundations Core open source so I still love you guys!

[umbralux]

A tablet client would probably be successful - personally, I'd prefer Android over iPad though. ;)

Not sure you'd manage to sell the convention idea as a kickstarter. The individual benefits seem too ephemeral.

I do like the ruleset builder app - however I suspect it would be a lot of work and require a higher price. To make it worse, your target audience is probably limited to GMs. Guess I'm saying I'll pledge $...but won't hold my breath.

Map enhancements are another GM-centric project but they're also a much lower cost of entry. Could easily set it up with a minimum number of maps and add more as stretch goals. Even better, you may have an audience beyond FG users.

Cloud storage - eh, not worth competing against others IMO.

What I'd really like to see are more professional rule sets and better support for existing rule sets. FATE. PDQ. ORE. Unisystem. Others. These could be via the rule set builder app or they could be built individually.

Another item is integrate voice chat. Perhaps even video.


#6 Cloud Storage: I am personally against this. I do not use Cloud or in any other way put my data out there for people to hack into. Sure Cloud works for a lot of people. But I enjoy my privacy. I'll leave it at that. 1 out of 10.Check out SpiderOak. ;)

[damned]

check out this app in development for tablets...
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/475776114/crawlers-companion-for-all
https://purplesorcerer.com/crawler/
it is designed for goodmans games - dungeon crawl classics
this is not exactly what people are after but there are some good starting points...

you have a diceroller, access to various modules (spells etc), you possibly need the following extra sesctions/screens:
chat window
images
combat tracker
combat map
character sheet

i dont mean that lightly when i say *only*!
unfortunately the demo is in flash so you cant really get a good feel - but it is a nice step i the right direction...

[damned]

get your offering right and it could really pay for itself....

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1613260297/shadowrun-returns?ref=search

and the table top forge has topped $25k this week i think.

[Roncorps]

#4 - Ruleset Builder application

#9 - Module builder application

I would gladly vouch for that and I'm sure that if Fantasy Grounds can offer a easy tool to create everything's needed for a new, a old or a underground RPG, it would boost the sale too. Right now, it not very user friendly.

[SLB]

I think that tablet support is the best bet for the first kick-starter project. While a lot of the other suggestions are of, perhaps, greater use to the existing playerbase, I think that tablet support can be useful both to existing FG users plus a great entry-point for new users.

What I think might be interesting, is that I suspect that many of the people who complain about the cost of FG (which I think is quite inexpensive personally) would be all over a kickstarter for the "free" rewards. Of course, I don't have any evidence at all to support that :)

But the main reason I think that the tablet app is so important as it would take FG from being a VTT primarily used for internet gaming to a tool which can be easily used for table top gaming - in person. I can very easily see a group of players using FG for the combat automization and character tracking while role-playing in person. I think there are a few groups who do that now with FG - from what I've read on the forums it's mostly to support a single friend who has moved away. However, I already know of several players who use a tablet to manage their characters at in-person games which aren't automated. This opens the door for a much wider audience for FG.

Also, I think it would be important to strive for both iPad and Android support at launch. I would say that at least half of my gamer friends are Android users.

[Tryll]

A tablet client would be pretty awesome.

But I would never do that until more powerful mapping is in place for the desktop. It would seem like the core product wasn't brought fully current before moving on to a new client for it. That would only bring the current limitations to a new platform and thereby make it even more expensive (prohibitive?) to update in the future.

So, mapping would get my vote... although both would likely get my kickstart money.

;-)

[ddavison]

I'm thinking that the tablet interface would roll out in two phases. Phase I would probably only be a tablet player client. Phase II would try to add in all the GM features. I can already envision how the player client would act and appear as if it was meant to be run on a tablet all along. The GM version... not so much yet. I expect it will start to hit me after working on the player version.

We may also split an Android and an iPad kickstarter into two distinct projects since they will involve separate development efforts.

[Roncorps]

We may also split an Android and an iPad kickstarter into two distinct projects since they will involve separate development efforts.

Or do a survey in the RPG community and choose the more used OS !

[Tryll]

We may also split an Android and an iPad kickstarter into two distinct projects since they will involve separate development efforts.

Maybe you just need a network API. That would be even more valuable to me than an application.

[lachancery]

I'm thinking that the tablet interface would roll out in two phases. Phase I would probably only be a tablet player client. Phase II would try to add in all the GM features. I can already envision how the player client would act and appear as if it was meant to be run on a tablet all along. The GM version... not so much yet.
Are you sure there would be a demand for the GM version running on a tablet? I don't see myself running a game with my iPad, but playing, definitely.

[SLB]

I agree with lachancery, I think the iPad version would be successful as a player app

[Callum]

I thought it might be worth adding a link to the the Hazzah Kickstarter (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1637247354/hazzah-the-mobile-tabletop-rpg-tool-for-iphones-an).

[Moon Wizard]

Interesting that they decided to go Bluetooth vs. standard network connections, but I guess it makes sense for a project focused on "at the table" play experience.

Given mobile technology, I would think that there would be a natural migration away from coordinated play and a general move to asynschronous play (i.e. play by mail, or play when you have time). This is essentially what programs like Words with Friends and other mobile apps are doing for board games.

Cheers,
JPG

[damned]

what is interesting is that Hazzah is not getting the funding rate it requires to complete while many of the recent web based vtts projects have easily reached funding targets...
maybe there is a lesson there in what the market is willing to play... the web based VTTs are pitched at under $10,000 whilst this one has been aimed at $50,000.
Table Top Forge and Roll 20 only asked for $5k each and got themselves around $40k. Huzzah is asking for $50k but the response to it has been more muted....

[damned]

what is also worth noting is each was able to get 1500-2000 backers at approx $25/backer on average. that is about the cost of a single Lite license.
additionally if you can convert 10% of your current licensed base (about 1600?) to a $25 commitment you would be pretty close already - if you could add another 800 new buyers things would start humming and you could add some fresh blood into the player pool.

[Blackdove]

One of my desires and to be competitive with the other VTTs out there is:

#1 (Dynamic) - Line of Sight, Fog of War, Map Layers. Lack of this feature almost turned me away from FG. I would lay down funds immediately for this!

#2 Lobby - Online role-playing is social and this would help strengthen and grow the community. Which is necessary for longevity.

#3 Ruleset Builder - So many RPGs out there and home-brewed campaigns. The attraction of FG over other VTTs is the ruleset and automation integration. Build upon this structure would be a plus and draw in more players looking to play that particular game. Building FG user base and growing the community at the same time.

#4 iPad/Android App - Pretty much a no brainer as we have seen in countless posts. That's where technology is going. It would translate well and fit perfect for a face to face game where laptops take away from the atmosphere and become distracting to players. Would be cool where individual players and DM have their own tablet that would then interact to the TV screen for the full group.

[Roncorps]

#3 Ruleset Builder - So many RPGs out there and home-brewed campaigns. The attraction of FG over other VTTs is the ruleset and automation integration. Build upon this structure would be a plus and draw in more players looking to play that particular game. Building FG user base and growing the community at the same time.

This ! If FG can have any ruleset easely, the player base will grow with it.

[Illrigger]

I am a little late to the game here, but I am thinking a killer feature for the Lobby would be the ability to move characters in and out of games easily. For things like RPGA and Pathfinder Society play, being able to get a character in and out of games rapidly would be a HUGE plus, and it's a feature that isn't present in any product at the moment as far as I know. What I am envisioning for the lobby is a stand-alone server app that runs and allows people to log in, enter their characters into a general pool, and then have those characters join games when they start without the usual import process. When the adventure ends, the GM can "release" the characters back into the pool so the players can join another game later. Does that make sense to anyone else?

[Blackdove]

I like that idea. I was very involved in the RPGA about 10 years ago when Living Greyhawk was going strong. This Lobby feature would be another strong leap going toward Virtual Conventions.

Tell you what if Fantasy Grounds could be the catalyst and make Virtual Conventions a functional reality that would be awesome for the brand. Not to mention to many gamers who unable to participate.

[Trenloe]

I am a little late to the game here, but I am thinking a killer feature for the Lobby would be the ability to move characters in and out of games easily. For things like RPGA and Pathfinder Society play, being able to get a character in and out of games rapidly would be a HUGE plus, and it's a feature that isn't present in any product at the moment as far as I know. What I am envisioning for the lobby is a stand-alone server app that runs and allows people to log in, enter their characters into a general pool, and then have those characters join games when they start without the usual import process. When the adventure ends, the GM can "release" the characters back into the pool so the players can join another game later. Does that make sense to anyone else?
The first part of that is essentially there now - with the local characters in "Manage characters" - player's join a game and have the option to select a character from the campaign or from their local cache of characters.

The thing that is missing is the ability to easily take the (modified) character back into the cache after the game - it can be done. but it's not straightforward.

The main reason most GMs don't use the local character approach for our Pathfinder Society Games is that we want to review the characters beforehand - and we use the "get me your character XML" process as an indication that the player is prepared for the game and will probably turn up. But, this is used for scheduled games.

I'm still not sure how well a lobby/pick-up game approach will work with Fantasy Grounds and the vast timezone differences the players are spread over. During the FG Con we had a few people hanging out in the general TeamSpeak chat room - just hanging out. I'm not aware of any actual pick-up games happening (but there might well have been) - and that was during a fixed time period when we knew lots of people would be around. Perhaps we just need our mentality changing - but, outside of an actual convention/fixed time window for play; most GMs will want to schedule a game so that they know all of their preparation time won't be wasted as they know ahead of time that they will (or won't) have players...

Perhaps we should schedule a regular "pick-up game" timeslot and see if it is something people are interested in???

I also feel that pickup games are better with pregen characters - for PFS we have enough problems getting character levels for the correct subtiers with a few days notice. Imagine being a player waiting a few hours for a pick-up game and then not having a character of the correct level to play when a willing GM finally turns up... :cry:

[Arion]

It has to be the character sheet designer for me. I have so many games i would like to play over FG, but the lack of even a character sheet is stopping me.

WIth even just a simple graphical designer, you would go from having 30-odd character sheets (and full rulesets) to having literally hundreds in a few months. I agree that the designer itself would not sell to everyone, but every indie game designer would use it to add a character sheet for their new game. They would probably host it on their own website. This would immediately make FG a viable option for many thousands of gamers, with hundreds of companies doing the marketing for you.

I myself can think of 5 or 6 i would do myself, and other publishers i have worked with would also create sheets.

This to me would bring more people to FG because they can play their favourite game with one or more character sheet options.

EDIT: I started my Kickstarter on Indiegogo almost on a whim one evening, and got to my $3000 target after less than a month. I have now added a stretch goal, and am half way to that with still a week or so to go. Get it listed and see what happens!

I would personally support this big time as it would be a godsend for me personally and commercially, even if it was just an unautomated character sheet builder.

[Arion]

This is very similar to what we need:

https://www.nbos.com/products/charsheet/charsheet.htm

(https://www.nbos.com/products/charsheet/charsheet.htm)

Just one that outputs xml!

[Emrak]

Oh sweet lord, please #4 and #9!

:)

[ddavison]

Just a quick update, but I've been busy learning how to develop for iOS and once I get a little farther along I'll be building out a prototype. I want to hit that stage before we post a kickstarter to fund it fully. I'm not a fan of vaporware, so we want to make sure we can do it and we can do it well. Whatever design we come up should work the same for android and we'll probably outsource and direct that one since it will just be a port.

[Blackdove]

Awesome to hear! RollD20 is coming out some some impressive stuff and I want to see Fantasy Grounds stay number one. What ever I can do to support, either time or financial (ie Kickstarter) lets make it happen.

[Zeus]

Just a quick update, but I've been busy learning how to develop for iOS and once I get a little farther along I'll be building out a prototype. I want to hit that stage before we post a kickstarter to fund it fully. I'm not a fan of vaporware, so we want to make sure we can do it and we can do it well. Whatever design we come up should work the same for android and we'll probably outsource and direct that one since it will just be a port.

How you finding iOS Doug? :) For me its been both fun and quite refreshing - taken me back to early days in Objective Ada development :D

I am really looking forward to the next development cycle after having discussed some interesting and exciting ideas with moon_wizard ...

As for Kickstarter - which I have been very slow to embrace (not sure why), I am also looking forward to supporting any official FGII Kickstarter projects. Count on me to add a financial pledge and development support.

DrZ

[ddavison]

I like it and I'm finding that it spurs the creative juices just going through the process. There were a few things I didn't like about the IDE and the syntax at first but it's growing on me.

[primarch]

Hi!

Is the intention of the potential kickstarter just a phone app? No tackling upgrading the standard Fantasy Grounds program?

Primarch

[ddavison]

My focus will be on an iPhone/iPad app. Meanwhile, Moon_Wizard will be busy adding and upgrading the core engine. We may do multiple kickstarters at once.

[d4nu]

This sounds great guys. I'll be supporting for sure!

[demonsbane]

This ! If FG can have any ruleset easely, the player base will grow with it.

I agree very much about the importance of a Ruleset Builder.

[Renfield]

This sounds interesting. Any possibility of an Android app for those of us uninterested in/disillusioned with apple products? What of those of us with the Ultimate license, would a core program update mess with us?

[ddavison]

Renfield, our goal would be to put on an android app as well. One of the methods we are investigating is an HTML5 interface which would work on a number of platforms. I'm still progressing on the iPad/iPhone interfaces as well since I'm interested in getting proficient with building those apps natively too.

[Valarian]

I would also stress the importance of a ruleset builder. A tool that would increase access to the existing product, rather than building another product that would have a limited Market (ie. Apple tablets). I wonder just how many existing FG2 customers have such a product, or how many more it would bring in with the limited interface it would have. The Steam release I would say is more likely to bring more people in. Or perhaps a native Mac version - desktop, not tablet.

[Roncorps]

A survey could help seeing what people want as next product from Smiteworks.

[Blahness98]

I would personally also like seeing a rule set builder than the iPad app. The tablet app may be a cool thing to have, but seeing as I don't have a tablet it doesn't interest me. The ruleset builder on the other hand would be a boon to me as I would like to build a Cyberpunk 2020 rule set.

[Griogre]

I also strongly agree with Valarian, I really can't state strongly enough how important I think it is to allow the easy construction, upgrading and updating of rulesets by users to grow the community and keep FG relevant no matter what hot new RPG comes along or what old out of print game a group wants to play.

It also takes the burden off a very limit number of developers to try to update every existing ruleset every time FG adds a major new feature.

[damned]

the reak advantage of the tablet client is the way that people use tablets. people that use tablets often have little or no qualms about purchasing small incremental sale amounts. they will happily drop 0.99 or 2.99 on a dozen different apps just trying them out or just using them for a short while. many of these apps allow ingame purchases which can easily turn your original 0.99 into a 20.99 purchase. having a really cheap client could encourage lots more people to download and try - of course the flip side for that is ease of finding a game for them to play, which is again part of that whole convenience factor of using apps. a large number of tablet and high end smrt phone users think nothing of buying apps and add-ons in this way - it really has the potential to explode the number of people trying out FG.

Would a ruleset builder be awesome? Absolutely. I honestly think a tablet app would be a fraction of the work required to make a ruleset builder which is why it may be a better first choice. I also suspect from comments here that there might be a substantial reworking of the base product needing to be done to make a ruleset builder practical - I could have incorrectly inferred that though...

[ddavison]

damned pretty much hit the nail on the head on how I'm looking at the project currently. We would love to do both a ruleset builder and a tablet client, and we hope to eventually to both. With limited resources, the more commercially viable solution ends up taking precedence. Making an Apple product first also makes sense based on our research because it appears that Apple users spend more and as damned states, would potentially bring more people in. This should help to further reduce the cost of later doing an Android app because the design would be complete and the implementation would just need to vary. It's also possible we could out-source the Android version once we had sales figures from the iPad version to use for ROI calculations.

One thing is certain, though, is that we are not planning to do any kickstarters until after we have at least some of the prototyping under way and we can make better projections on the time it would take to complete it.

[Valarian]

Bear in mind that a ruleset builder wouldn't have to be built from scratch. There are a number of IDE applications (eg. Eclipse) that can be used as a base for the tool and extended. Companies such as IBM and Oracle have done just this for their development environments. For .Net projects, I think Microsoft also provide an extensible base IDE that can be used for commercial projects. So what would need to be added would be the objects and the XML generation, plus the Lua libraries.

[hawkwind]

I would rather see a rule set builder my self, I note that Roll 20 virtual table which is getting very popular has just announced tablet support and are doing via html 5 so it will run on both Android and Appe tablets and they are doing this via a monthly subscription rather than giving a large portion of any future profits to Apple.

[Brenn]

Ruleset Editor. Primarily a wysiwyg gui editor, leave the scripting pretty much as is initially, but just the ability to visually layout your vtt would be a tremendous help and timesaver.

[demonsbane]

(. . .) Roll 20 virtual table which is getting very popular has just announced tablet support and are doing via html 5 so it will run on both Android and Appe tablets

Months ago. And even if it's not completely finished, it already runs on these tablets.


I would rather see a rule set builder my self,

Fantasy Grounds' dependence on specific rulesets/character sheets along with the required programming skills for customizing it merely for the games you want to play (*) is the strongest weak point of this app, so the importance of an easy to learn Ruleset Editor hardly can be exaggerated.

(*) Or for merely updating/tweaking already existent rulesets for keeping them functioning after new Fantasy Grounds updates.

[Brenn]

Fantasy Grounds' dependence on specific rulesets/character sheets along with the required programming skills for customizing it merely for the games you want to play (*) is the strongest weak point of this app, so the importance of an easy to learn Ruleset Editor hardly can be exaggerated.

(*) Or for merely updating/tweaking already existent rulesets for keeping them functioning after new Fantasy Grounds updates.

I agree with your statement except that I don't believe there is anyway around having to learn some lua if you want to do any kind of mechanical modification of a ruleset, even with a fully featured editor. A well designed editor would ease the learning of it because of how you would be able to browse the scripts of an existing ruleset and see how the pieces fit together.

I think a visual development environment is essential for the growth of this product and logically should come before the tablet support. I have friends were initially enthused about FG, but after realizing how time consuming it was to even make minor modifications to an existing ruleset, quickly lost interest. Scripting is scripting, it can be very time consuming depending on what you want to do- I don't think it should really be changed drastically, but having to spend countless hours twiddling with the XML to properly position controls is incredibly annoying for anyone that has ever used any other visual development environment. Laying out a gui should not take so much time.

Sorry if I was a bit harsh, but I'm currently laying out a dialog and am particularly annoyed right now.

[demonsbane]

Brenn, you haven't been harsh in the very least.

Also, I sort of agree with what you said.

Cheers

[Acroyear]

HTML5 client would be better than any mobile or tablet client.
Cloud Storage would be a great plus.

[damned]

i would normally agree that html5 should be investigated when evaluating options for an app however html5 would require either:

1. implementing a webserver with the FG client and all the additional port configurations associated with making that available across the web
or
2. moving to a smiteworks hosted solution which would then move fg to a subscription based model which a lot of license holders are not in favour of (I don't mind either way)

deploying as an app you can get it to read and execute direct from the current environment/architecture...

[kairos]

+1 for some sort of ruleset builder utility.

[CampbellR66]

I would be up for an iPad or Android tablet app that let me author adventures and import the result to the server when home. I can use the train commute time.

Players would like a mobile chat/ lobby / character viewer from the cloud on iPad or android.

We use obsidian portal at the moment for between game banter and a bit of roleplay.

An iPad game client might work if skype can run as well.

[tdewitt274]

I'm sure you're already aware of these resources:

Learn Lua for iOS Game Development (https://www.amazon.com/Learn-Lua-Game-Development-Apress/dp/1430246626/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1359207521&sr=8-1&keywords=lua+ios)

Learning Corona SDK App Development - Training DVD (https://www.amazon.com/Learning-Corona-SDK-App-Development/dp/B008OWYE2Q/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1359207521&sr=8-4&keywords=lua+ios)

[ddavison]

Thanks tdewitt, I was not familiar with those.

For HTML5, I have some serious concerns with using that as a platform. The reliance on javascript pushes too much of the functionality and content into the front-end for my liking from a security standpoint. It's probably not as much of a concern with fully trusted players, but with unregistered users it would present an unsafe environment for other connected players and the GM.

[tdewitt274]

Thanks tdewitt, I was not familiar with those.
Not a problem. Ran into it at B&N the other day. It has a lot of LUA information for those that would like to learn.

[jbewer]

So whats the word? When will we be seeing a Kickstarter for all this goodness?

[Blackdove]

2 Months from a year. Love to hear an update soon.

[ddavison]

We've been discussing this again lately and lamenting the fact that development time has not been as available as we would have hoped. Moon_wizard is still finding time to hit the core updates but we aren't making as much headway on the fronts that I wanted to tackle personally.

We reached out to a trusted developer in the community to see if they would be interested in coordinating with us to launch a Kickstarter to get one of these features under way.

[Dracones]

Personally I think a tablet client is the wrong direction to go. Right now everyone is clamoring for tablet this/tablet that, because the technology is "new"(in that we're all using them now) and it's a bit fad-ish to be doing everything on your tablet you used to do on your PC. The tablet interface/experience is very limited and I'd expect that fad to pass in a few years. I think it's a lot of dev work to target tablets and the money in the tablet scene tends to be over-estimated. I own several tablets, I love my tablets, tablets have their use, but I've also been in IT for 20 years and recognize buzz when I see it.

I'd be looking to make FG3 the next Teamspeak 3 of VTT. I'd modify it to run headless in Windows and on Wine and play nice running with multiple copies on servers where GMs could connect remotely. I'd then go to the many many companies out there that professionally host gaming servers and work out a licensing model to where they could host FG.

This would allow for a much easier trial of FG since people could cheaply rent low slot servers(with voice since the resellers also sell that) on a month to month basis without worrying about ports, firewalls, bandwidth and so on. Smiteworks gets recurring revenue from the rentals, these accounts provide sales from the product store, and it maintains the premium experience of the brand. It's now professionally hosted after all.

The hurdles would be taking the current app, striping down the engine to work headless and changing the client to allow for uploading data to the headless server(which will have disk space for this). This probably won't be easy, but it's something that can be done in house and leverages the toolsets the current devs already know. But it creates a nice long term product plan. It takes the app in a direction to compete head on with Roll20. It turns server hosting companies into re-sellers and advertisers, and it lowers the barrier to entry for people to try out the product.

[Moon Wizard]

We've actually thought about this approach ourselves. It would require some extensive re-design of some parts (i.e. move "master" database to headless server, specify method to authenticate GM vs. player, update data collision handling, etc.) However, what you propose also involves what is essentially a subscription model, since it is moving to servers hosted by resellers. I actually think this is a decent model, though we are not currently building to this approach.

I also agree with your statement on "tablet" being a fad. However, I also believe that there is a demand and need for clients with less screen real estate (i.e. phones, mini-tablets, tablets, etc.) and more screen real state (i.e. tabletop screens). Doug and I have spoken extensively on this, and we believe that the solution for now is a limited feature client for small screens. (something simple like tabs for a single character, to roll dice, to chat, and a single map) The challenge is either building a mobile app to mimic a limited version of the FG "platform" along with "mobile-only" rulesets/extensions; or building one-off mobile apps per ruleset. (Leaning towards the latter in the shorter term for speed, simplicity and dodging app store rules about "scripting" apps.)

All in all, the challenge is resources more than ideas.

Regards,
JPG

[damned]

dracone - what i really like about this model is the massively increased visibility the product could gain by being sold alongside teamspeak etc. but unlike the free to play with ads model - you still have to pay so it still encourages some commitment and stickiness from new players.
as jpg says - this does entail a subscription model... which i think is probably over the longer term the more sustainable model... (or maybe its not SW would have the best idea of whether their model is sustainable or not).
removing the inbound tcp 1802 port mapping would reduce the complexity for a lot of potential gms i think.

[unerwünscht]

I would like to just drop in my 2 cents on the tablet topic real fast. I don't think a fully functioning tablet version of FGII is the way to go or the right thing to do at all...

However I do see a perfect opportunity here with tablets. If a module/app could be made that would let me log into a FG server with both my PC and my Tablet so that I had full functionality on my PC and then access to things like my character sheet on the tablet, that would be beyond perfect in my opinion.

[ddavison]

I see the tablets and phone models as enhancements for people who want to still gather and play around a table mostly.

As for the subscription model, I think that is probably the best model; however, sales have shown to be stable and even growing consistently year over year since before Moon_wizard and I took over in 2009. It's probably best for a separate poll, but would a subscription model that grandfathered in existing licenses for some relatively long period of time be acceptable to people if new people had to go through the subscription model exclusively?

[unerwünscht]

I would have to say that moving to a purely subscription based model, would result in me jumping ship. But then, I don't think anyone cares if I jump ship or not.

[ddavison]

I should rephrase what I said. I think a subscription model is the best model from a pure financial standpoint. It has not been the best model for the FG community and therefore we've not taken steps to move in that direction. Moon_wizard and I don't work and depend on FG solely for income and while that comes with its downsides, it also frees us to make decisions that we know go counter to the best financial advice.

I thought the subscription model was the best route from a business perspective 3+ years ago. I'm just reiterating that we have purposely chosen not to do that because the FG community is more important to us and we found that they were overwhelming against it. Unerwünscht, I don't think you are alone in your sentiment.

[JohnD]

I see the tablets and phone models as enhancements for people who want to still gather and play around a table mostly.

As for the subscription model, I think that is probably the best model; however, sales have shown to be stable and even growing consistently year over year since before Moon_wizard and I took over in 2009. It's probably best for a separate poll, but would a subscription model that grandfathered in existing licenses for some relatively long period of time be acceptable to people if new people had to go through the subscription model exclusively?
I think I'm a reasonably heavy FG user right now; running three separate campaigns for 20+ players. I'm DMing probably three nights every two weeks and probably would add an evening or two if I wasn't worried about the wife Bobbiting me. :hurt:

I never took on any of those monthly fee games like WoW because I didn't feel there was going to be enough use to make it worthwhile for me.

A monthly subscription would turn me into a seasonal customer - May through probably September inclusive I wouldn't pay because I don't run games during late spring and summer.

I guess the flip side is what would I get from a subscription model that I don't get right now with my Ultimate license?

[ddavison]

JohnD, there would be some differences but not too much. It would mostly be putting the server functions on a central space instead of running from your PC and then you would connect just like your players to this central server. The biggest change would be for people coming in to the software. Instead of buying the $149 Ultimate, you would have instead bought a subscription for $X a month. Setup would probably be easier as well and updates would be applied to the central server instead of updates going to everyone's PC.

The Ultimate equivalent would be tricky to replace in the model since everyone would either need a subscription or you could have the option of buying guest passes. Maybe an Ultimate would have some way of allowing anyone to connect even without a subscription in a similar way to how they do now with Ultimate licenses.

[JohnD]

One thing which should be possible with a central server would be more bandwidth to push larger maps/pictures to everyone faster.

I have a few beautiful maps that are over 10 mb in size... would love to use them but I fear it would take the whole session for all the players to load it.

I really like my Ultimate license, even if it hasn't exactly worked out the way I thought it would... IMO there would need to be a way for users with those licenses to be distinguished from the rest.

[damned]

i think there would naturally be resistance to a change in pricing for existing license holders however it must be said that the license we use today is not the one we bought back whenever that was. it is a product that is continuously updated. on the downside many of these long term users are also big contributors in terms of coding extensions and alternate rulesets - usually for pennies.
i have an ultimate license i bought probably 2 years ago - it wouldnt bother me to move to a subscription model if it was the right move to keep the product growing and developing.
doug - would the software updates truly be confined to the hosted server? with teamspeak you might rent a server with X slots. maybe fg would work that way? maybe not - cos that pretty much turns all gms into purchasers of the ultimate license...
johnd - you would still have to deal with memory limitations etc... 10mb might still be too big :)

[DrakosDJ]

I for one would not like a move to a central server, or a subscription model. I purchased the Ultimate license for a reason.

[Dracones]

Well, on the professionally server rented model I don't believe FG would have to go strictly subscription model based.

First off you could self host the product. Host with a full license and any player with lite license and above could connect. Host with an ultimate license and any player with the trial version of FG could connect and play. Edit: though maybe this model could be exploited.

On the professional server rental model, an easy way to handle that is by slot renting. The hosting provider sets up the install, applies X slots, charges a base fee + whatever per slot. Smiteworks makes money off the slot fees and the hosting provider earns money off charging for the base server install and resource tiers.

However there's no reason that Smiteworks couldn't mix and match slot renting and licensing. The hoster should be making money off the base install, not slots. From Smiteworks perspective users can rent slots, buy permanent licensing(if they want to keep doing that) or ever mix and match. Maybe someone rents a 4 slot server but someone connecting with a licensed copy doesn't count against one of those slots.

The main goal(from my perspective anyway, it might be a flawed perspective) would be to allow for dead simple hosting for newbies, lower the barrier to entry with a cheaper buy in, and create marketing partners(hosting providers) who are then acting to re-sell the product for me.

Whether or not to go with a pure subscription model would pretty much depend on whether or not Smiteworks can leverage those 1 time buys into a steady stream of product add on buys. Of course having everyone on a subscription model does make things a lot easier(steady monthly income), but I know as a user I do prefer the 1 time buys and it may not end up being a big difference money-wise for the company.

Personally I'd support whatever route let's the developer spend more of their time working on the product.

[JohnD]

I guess a question that's nagging at me is the prospect of "barriers to entry".

At just $24 for a Lite, that's not very much of a barrier in my opinion. If someone isn't going to pay that, then they aren't going to $5/month. That's essentially less than the price of dinner in a modest restaurant.

Paying that minimal amount means in my experience the player is more likely to stick with a game once they get into one, and not be a "one hit wonder" which unfortunately happens a lot with Ultimate DMs that accept people with the free demo version.

[Emrak]

There is a culture of "try before you buy" in today's app world, thus, the $24 player barrier really is a true barrier in the mindset of many folks. The current FG paradigm of having a demo version that doesn't really show you the true capabilities of the product (because you can't play in an actual game) could be improved upon.

I don't think a sub model or server centric model is the way to go, personally.

If I could wave my magic wand, the way FG would work is:

-No "player" mode at all. Only GM editions.
-Price needs to be dropped.
-Any FG install should be capable of running as it's own "server" (similar to games such as Terraria and Minecraft) with any number of people can connect to in a "lobby" and run their own games off of--assuming they have FG of course.
-The "server" would have a repository for modules, adventures, graphics, rulesets, etc. This would allow for ease of distribution of player-created content (something which needs to be improved upon and really is the future of the VTT industry IMHO).
-In app displays showing current global FG statistics (games being played, rulesets being played, etc.).
-In app ability to easily browse available products for purchase (instead of going to a website) and buy them.
-In app display which allows GMs to advertise open games.
-In app help documentation.
-Ability to rate/review products so folks have insight into quality.
-Ability to build maps w/in FG (which I know is coming soon)

I think that's about it for now, but I'm sure I'll think of more later. ;)
EDIT: btw, i know that most of my wishlist is pie-in-the-sky stuff, but since we're throwing stuff at the wall, I figured I'd do my part lol

[damned]

There is a culture of "try before you buy" in today's app world, thus, the $24 player barrier really is a true barrier in the mindset of many folks.
I honestly think that without charging people to play - one way or another - you just encourage time wasters. Im sure they dont mean to be - they just are.


No "player" mode at all. Only GM editions.
Of all the things that get touted - this is the one I understand the least. Why charge your GMs and not your players?

[Emrak]

Of all the things that get touted - this is the one I understand the least. Why charge your GMs and not your players?

My bad for not being more clear. I meant, only one kind of license, not that people shouldn't be charged. I'll also add an item to the list:

- some sort of try before you buy functionality where folks could play a couple games before purchasing (maybe this "demo" version would be server based, where they had to stay logged in for it to work).

[Doswelk]

- some sort of try before you buy functionality where folks could play a couple games before purchasing (maybe this "demo" version would be server based, where they had to stay logged in for it to work).

Yep it's called FGII Con and you play a game with a GM with an Ultimate License, we just need more than one a year.

[unerwünscht]

Yep it's called FGII Con and you play a game with a GM with an Ultimate License, we just need more than one a year.
Yep it's called the Fantasy Grounds Community IRC channel. Quite a few ultimate license holders hang out in there frequently. ;) Just wish more players and community members would take advantage of it.

[ddavison]

Hey everyone,

I thought I would share some exciting news regarding an upcoming Kickstarter. We've been in negotiations with Brendon Duncan from www.3dvirtualtabletop.com on a collaboration targeting iOS and Android. We really like the look of his 3D virtual tabletop and we both agree that it would fit very well with Fantasy Grounds as a new client type. Most of the current maps and tokens could be made to work with the 3D (or 2.5D) view that Brendon has working now without any changes needed on the current art assets.

Another benefit would be that we could release to PC, Mac and Linux via the web in addition to hitting the iPhones, iPads and Android tablets and phones. For FG users running locally, this could be a cool way for players to connect and interact with the maps.

Keep an eye out for a new thread in the next couple days and we'll be looking for thoughts and suggestions on how we can best take advantage of this collaboration. I'm really excited and I'm looking forward to working with Brendon to bring a cool new look and feel to FG.

In the meantime, I encourage interested users to go visit the URL listed above and check out some of the demos.

[unerwünscht]

3D basically kills FG for me, please tell me this is an optional thing and not a forced change to the core application.

[ddavison]

It will be a new client that can connect to a GM running a Full or Ultimate license. Art assets will be rendered in 2.5D on that client only. It will be a focused interface that won't fully reproduce everything in FG.

The current Full and Lite clients will remain the same.

[unerwünscht]

Yea, disregard my comment, I played with the demo application on the their site, and it is fake 3D and pretty cool. I saw the words 3D and assumed we would have to build dungeons inside an editor of some sort. This would not interfere with my ability to use FG at all. I encourage everyone to go play around with the demo and see for themselves.

[Emrak]

Holy crap! Fantastic news! :)

[ronnke]

This is good news and I'm happy to see some movement on this front. So, yay, I'll throw some money at this kickstarter because I want to see you guys succeed... :(

But, ugh, the sadface is because I really want to see the core FG client get some love. I'd pledge 10 times the amount for a kickstarter targeted at improvements to the current client. I just hope that when you embark on this new adventure, the core FG doesn't get pushed too far down the "to do" list.

[JohnD]

Looks cool... would have to see how it integrates with regular FG application and how a group on mixed formats can play together.

[DMBrendon]

Making Fantasy Grounds available to you on more devices is something I'm pleased to be part of. We're trying to make the experience as seamless as possible, you should be able to use all your existing tokens, maps, and other assets in the 3D Virtual Tabletop. This time however, they will be standing up to fight!

Let us know if there's anything special you'd like to see in Fantasy Grounds on a mobile device. This is a great stage to give us your input to help shape the app so you can play your games in the best possible way.

Here's what the app looks like at the moment:
https://www.3dvirtualtabletop.com/pics/storage/2013/02/3d-virtual-tabletop-screenshot-impression.png

[Emrak]

This is good news and I'm happy to see some movement on this front. So, yay, I'll throw some money at this kickstarter because I want to see you guys succeed... :(

But, ugh, the sadface is because I really want to see the core FG client get some love. I'd pledge 10 times the amount for a kickstarter targeted at improvements to the current client. I just hope that when you embark on this new adventure, the core FG doesn't get pushed too far down the "to do" list.

Ya know, the more i think about it, I'm kind of on-board with you here. I'd Kickstart the hell out of core improvements. The benefit of this KS is--at the end of the day--more players on more devices, and that's cool, but it's not something you can get too excited about if you already have a stable game group.

[Valarian]

Making Fantasy Grounds available to you on more devices is something I'm pleased to be part of. We're trying to make the experience as seamless as possible, you should be able to use all your existing tokens, maps, and other assets in the 3D Virtual Tabletop. This time however, they will be standing up to fight!

Let us know if there's anything special you'd like to see in Fantasy Grounds on a mobile device. This is a great stage to give us your input to help shape the app so you can play your games in the best possible way.
Why is it that people seem to equate VTT with maps and miniatures? One of the big draws of Fantasy Grounds, for me, was the focus on the character sheet and story rather than moving miniatures (tokens) around a map. I'm afraid this looks far too map-centric for my tastes - more like Battlegrounds or Maptool than Fantasy Grounds. Great for wargaming but not roleplaying.

[Emrak]

Ya know, the more i think about it, I'm kind of on-board with you here. I'd Kickstart the hell out of core improvements. The benefit of this KS is--at the end of the day--more players on more devices, and that's cool, but it's not something you can get too excited about if you already have a stable game group.

I take back my take back.

Had a chance to fool around with the demo. Very, very cool. I'm in!

EDIT: will GMs have the opportunity to build/import their own 3D minis, objects, and terrain? (the correct answer is yes)
If this isn't on the table as core functionality, then please make it a stretch goal.

[Dracones]

Interesting. I think the strongest aspect of this is that it looks like it's running on the Unity engine. This is really portable and working with it could help FG going forward.

I also like the idea of this at gaming tables. Run a FG ultimate license on a laptop and people with tablets can connect in and see the map. Should make running in person games easier by leveraging FG's features.

[Zeus]

Why is it that people seem to equate VTT with maps and miniatures? One of the big draws of Fantasy Grounds, for me, was the focus on the character sheet and story rather than moving miniatures (tokens) around a map. I'm afraid this looks far too map-centric for my tastes - more like Battlegrounds or Maptool than Fantasy Grounds. Great for wargaming but not roleplaying.

I think Valarian, may have a point here. I for one have always favoured FGII because of its Character Sheet centricity and Storytelling support functionality. Its the main reason I didn't go down the Battlegrounds/Maptool or D20Pro route. I like the idea of FGII on other platforms including iOS and Android devices but admit to have always seen this as an extension to the existing client i.e. char sheet, basic chat and text and image/map tab and not too different in look and feel.

Don't get me wrong 2.5D map perspectives are kind cool as it mirrors the perspective of maps on a real table. Dynamic light sources for me, less so as this is more akin to a video game. I guess if both could be made available within the main client this would enhance current map views but I wouldn't want the 2.5D graphics in the new client to overshadow the existing functionality in the current client, particularly if the 2.5D functionality is not going to be made available within the main desktop client.

[primarch]

Hi!

While I think the addition of such features is a great boon for the Fantasy Grounds fanbase, I can't help but be disappointed that the kickstarter wasn't for an interface to either add or make rulesets for it.

Fantasy Grounds, for me is my VTT of choice. I run all my main games on it. Provided of course it has a ruleset for the game I want to run. I have had to use other VTTs to run games Fantasy Grounds does not have rulesets for, since its easier for me to run them on some of the other VTT's than try to make/modify one. I have neither the skill or time to do that.

There are a lot of bells and whistles out there that are "nice" to have, but for me, right now an interface to make any ruleset into Fantasy Grounds is a MUST have.

Primarch

[unerwünscht]

I am starting to see quite a few potential issues arising from this.

1st There is the $9.99 a year cost. In and of itself that isn't a bad price, but it sets up the frame work for more features that might also cost extra on a subscription basis. I don't think I am a fan of this move.

2nd Also on the price, I am to understand that we are supposed to pay for the development of this through kickstarter and also pay to use it on a subscription basis? No sir, not me.

3rd How much focus is this going to take from further development of the core application, Moon has been doing a great job, but even he will admit it is already slow going. Will this step dramatically effect the progress of the modular rebuild of FGII rulesets?

4th Will this feature be tablet only or will it also be available inside the core application?

5th Will it be something that is actually ran/hosted/maintained by smiteworks, or is this just a licensed bridge to a 3rd party application? also if it is a licensed bridge to a 3rd party application does this imply that we will finally get access to bridge in other applications like Adobe Reader? Skype? IRC Lobby? etc....

6th Will it be fully compatible with the existing map features from Fantasy Grounds. Currently we can draw on the map with the draw tool (even if it is limited in function) If someone draws on a FG map will it also appear on the "3d" map? Or are we going to end up losing more map functionality?

7th How easy/hard will it be for 3rd party ruleset developers to tie into this functionality? Token facing is already becoming a major issue that is being addressed in 3rd party rulesets, and I can conceive of no valid way to implement token facing with the new map format.

8th I took the liberty of making a mock up map with the same perspective and dropping some of the current top down tokens on the map, and it just looks ridiculous, is smiteworks already moving away from the top down miniature look before it is even fully released?

I have many more questions but we can start with these, seeing as the answers here might change some of the other questions.

[DMBrendon]

One of the big draws of Fantasy Grounds, for me, was the focus on the character sheet and story rather than moving miniatures (tokens) around a map.
The mobile app will still be Fantasy Grounds at its heart, with all of the rules-based goodness and story elements that you're used to.

[Moon Wizard]

The idea is to take the great work than Brendon is doing with the map side on mobile, and bringing in elements of FG to enhance the experience.

As someone said previously, I'm excited about this because it opens the door for more players on different platforms and different uses at the table. (i.e. iPad and Apple TV)

One of the reasons we are targeting this as a Kickstarter is so that we can continue to focus our core efforts at enhancing the core product.

Cheers,
JPG

[unerwünscht]

The idea is to take the great work than Brendon is doing with the map side on mobile, and bringing in elements of FG to enhance the experience.


So we are looking a completely new application? and not an expansion to the existing Fantasy Grounds application? .... I am not sure what the advantage would be for anyone in the FG community to fund a competing application, that would just further fracture an already suffering gaming community. Unless your goal is to convince everyone to buy a tablet and switch over to the 'new way' of doing things.

[Moon Wizard]

No, our current idea is that it would be an "alternate" client to the FG host with a more limited feature set and 2.5D graphics. The GM would still need a full host to handle all of the FG goodness, and it would just be another client connection.

Regards,
JPG

[Dracones]

I'm assuming this could target the ouya android console? That'd be an easy in for displaying on a TV.

So, consider as a GM you could have a laptop running with FG up. That handles the maps, combat tracker, etc etc. You could turn on your TV, connect in with your ouya and display your FG map on your home 50 inch LCD for your players to interact with.

Or players could just sit around and use their phones and tablets while you GM'd on your laptop. No other VTT does this easily and it could really combine the power of FG rulesets with in person tabletop gaming.

[ddavison]

For me, the coolest feature would be to have my normal copy of FG running as a host and then hook this viewset up to a projector or mirrored to a tv for movement around the map.

We haven't finalized pricing or the full feature list yet. The prices on the linked website were planned before we started talking with Brendon. There may be a web version which is hosted and that may have an annual subscription for its use. At the same time, the iOS and Android apps will probably be one-time app purchases with in-app purchases available. We will figure this all out before launching the Kickstarter, but we are not there yet. The FG Lite, Full and Ultimate license are not going to change.

As Moon states, this will be Kickstarted so that we can continue development in other fronts while Brendon does most of the coding and work on interfacing with FG. It will take some coding on our part too, but it won't be 100% of our focus. It does open the door for us to start doing more 3rd party interfaces.

My hope is that we can prove out the idea of using Kickstarters to fund 3rd party development of enhancements that work with Fantasy Grounds and enhance the experience for users. Not all of these projects will appeal to all people. A graphical ruleset builder is another potential option and that is another one that will only appeal to a small percentage of our user base. This project has a good chance of getting new users interested in Fantasy Grounds, which we like. Core engine enhancements will likely continue outside of Kickstarter completely. Kickstarter pretty much requires projects to be something new and separate and I don't think iterative enhancements like we've seen over the last 3-4 years fall into that category. We view those iterative enhancements as a requirement for us to remain current and to keep the current user base engaged.

As for the top-down token style, we have some ideas for those that we haven't tried out yet but which should work conceptually. The majority of our store assets are better suited to stand-up style tokens but we obviously want it to work well with the new top down style tokens that we just paid for too.

[leozelig]

This is a very cool enhancement!

As a DM, it doesn't look like it will effect my side of the table too much. Will the client connection for the 3D tabletop also be viewable by the DM? I ask because I really like the dynamic lighting. It is one of those things that isn't really essential to my enjoyment, but definitely cool!

My main request outside of this project is that the core software is updated with features from the 3.5E and 4E rulesets. Double-click to roll, player combat tracker, and things like that. I use the free OSRIC ruleset for AD&D 1st Ed. games, and it would really benefit from an update.

I was also wondering about Shockbolt's top-down tokens when I saw this, but I know everyone has their preferred token style, so this is an awesome alternative.

Keep up the good work!!

[Arion]

Hi!

While I think the addition of such features is a great boon for the Fantasy Grounds fanbase, I can't help but be disappointed that the kickstarter wasn't for an interface to either add or make rulesets for it.

Fantasy Grounds, for me is my VTT of choice. I run all my main games on it. Provided of course it has a ruleset for the game I want to run. I have had to use other VTTs to run games Fantasy Grounds does not have rulesets for, since its easier for me to run them on some of the other VTT's than try to make/modify one. I have neither the skill or time to do that.

There are a lot of bells and whistles out there that are "nice" to have, but for me, right now an interface to make any ruleset into Fantasy Grounds is a MUST have.

Primarch

This. There are lots of games i would run if there was a ruleset, there are games i would playtest over FG if i had a ruleset and there are games i would play in if there was a ruleset.

This to me is the core limitation for FG. It is great if you have a ruleset, and a bit of a challenge if you don't.

Mobile apps etc are fine as far as they go, but they will still be limited by available rulesets. The proliferation of different rules these days means that FG only really appeals to a small subset of gamers.

[ddavison]

This is something we hope to do this year as well. Moon_wizard is actively working to restructure the rulesets to include a base ruleset functionality that can be easily leveraged and upgraded independent of games specific rules. Once this is complete, it should be easier to provide a ruleset builder. It's not quite ready for us to kick off as a Kickstarter yet though.

While some part of us would be happy to see people help us fund an idea that doesn't 100% appeal to them personally, I think this goes against what we want from Kickstarter in the first place. The nice thing about Kickstarter is it allows us to see how viable a specific idea is before we devote more resources to it. If you only invest in ideas you are personally interested in, we'll have a better connection to what you all want.

[ddavison]

Brendon was kind enough to supply this screenshot of the top down style tokens converted for use in the 3D viewer. This is pretty much how I envisioned it and we could probably make the token thickness or height configurable.

https://www.fantasygrounds.com/images/screenshots/Tokens-in-Forest.jpg

[Emrak]

Very cool stuff!

[hawkwind]

Looks pretty and I already have 3d app by Brandon so I will back this

[DMBrendon]

The screenshot that Doug posted uses some of the existing Fantasy Grounds tokens. It also uses some art for the pog-style tokens from another Kickstarter I supported, Prismatic Art. It's a great resource for free to use character portraits, but they do require attribution. The two pogs use art from Brian Patterson and Kaitlynn Peavler.

[demonsbane]

Moon_wizard is actively working to restructure the rulesets to include a base ruleset functionality that can be easily leveraged and upgraded independent of games specific rules. Once this is complete, it should be easier to provide a ruleset builder.

It's good to hear this.


Brendon was kind enough to supply this screenshot of the top down style tokens converted for use in the 3D viewer. This is pretty much how I envisioned it and we could probably make the token thickness or height configurable.

Nice. And it's interesting to see how this, that some of us suggested for Fantasy Grounds right here in the past (2.5D tokens in 3D maps, https://goo.gl/NEgpB) now has been seriously considered, after it being more or less strongly discarded back then.

[ddavison]

Nice find Demonsbane. I think I missed that when you posted it back then and had probably already discarded the thought of 3D shortly after the suggestion. My main goals were that it wouldn't require users to decide whether they bought 2D or 3D assets, it wouldn't require 3D Studio Max modeling of publisher content and that it wouldn't take away from our core engine features we have planned.

Even doing something to the degree we are planning now was out of the question for us until we started talking with Brendon about integrating with the work he's already done for the 3D RPG Tabletop. The fact that he already has a functional system that runs well on iPad, iPhone, Android and over the web is a great bonus and likely sealed the deal.

[ddavison]

That's just a long way of saying that it took me longer to "get it" than it did you. :o

[demonsbane]

Even doing something to the degree we are planning now was out of the question for us until we started talking with Brendon about integrating with the work he's already done for the 3D RPG Tabletop. (. . .)

Oh, but no worries! I completely understand your points and agree. :)

Some months ago the 3D RPG Tabletop app also catched my attention.

Thanks for your answer and cheers!

[robocoastie]

is this idea thread still active? If so my 2 copper would be licensing for more professional ready to go rulesets (D&D for example) so we don't have to use scraper tools and such which just make me pull my hair out. The downside of course is that as usual it means essentially buying the rulebooks twice (physical copy or DDI plus the FG mods) but that would based on WoTC license terms. Another idea is the DCC RPG ruleset though I suppose that can easily hacked from the Basic Fantasy one.

[Moon Wizard]

We have been working on getting WotC to allow licensing of their content for distribution with Fantasy Grounds for over 3 years. We get closer every year, so hopefully this is the year.

Cheers,
JPG

[Grey Mage]

Moon,

Would that be just for the current iteration of D&D or would it also include 3.5/4e/etc?

[Moon Wizard]

For whatever they will let us license. ;)

JPG

[mattcolville]

If you had a license from WotC, I wonder if you could include the character builder in FG2?

I wonder if you could include PyMapper with official tiles from WotC in FG2?

I wonder if you could sell actual, official, conversions of all the 4E adventures for FG2?

Seems like there should be a way to monetize this so you end up with the ultimate 4E tool, with WotC making money every time someone played. 4E was designed to be played with a VTT, and FG2 is like 90% of the way there already.

[unerwünscht]

If we continue to push for WotC I wonder how long until those of us who do not play D&D start to find FG seriously lacking... actually there is no need to wonder about that, because it is already happening. WotC is getting way more than their fair share of attention already, it is time to get away from the focus of turning FG into a D&D tool and back to the idea of it being a Virtual Table Top application... please.

[Moon Wizard]

It's not that we're turning FG into a D&D tool. It just happens that there is a lot of demand for D&D material for FG, which we would love to provide if we were allowed. We will work with any vendor of gaming material, as long as we can find a developer interested enough in taking on the project of migrating the material to FG.

On the development side, all of the features I am currently working on are relevant across any game system, not just D&D. In fact, I'm focused on the core ruleset right now that I am building for the next version will allow all the other rulesets to keep up with the 3.5E and 4E rulesets much easier. So, I wouldn't say that there is a development focus on D&D at all.

Regards,
JPG

[unerwünscht]

On the development side, all of the features I am currently working on are relevant across any game system, not just D&D. In fact, I'm focused on the core ruleset right now that I am building for the next version will allow all the other rulesets to keep up with the 3.5E and 4E rulesets much easier. So, I wouldn't say that there is a development focus on D&D at all.

Regards,
JPG

Yep I understand this entirely, however to date the community has not seen many (if any) non D&D specific improvements to FGII in a couple of years. I very much look forward to FGIII, but as it currently stands, I have ran maybe 3 games using FGII in the last two years, as the focus has been on D&D, and I find World of Warcraft to be more enjoyable than D&D... and that says a lot, because I don't particularly enjoy WoW.

[Oberoten]

Going to have to second this. It used to be that the development of features was a bit more open and you would warn beforehand when things might break something in older rulesets.

I know I am not the only ruleset dev that has had to rebuild a lot of their rulesets the last year. Some have dropped of entirely or gone to develop for the competition.

Only reason some systems like GURPS keeps working so well is that the people working on them are willing to put in the work to keep them up to snuff with every twist and turn.

It needs to get easier for those willing to make the effort to provide a ruleset to make them and maintain them. Sure the old salts who have been here since 1.5 and even earlier used to do it with a text-editor only and things HAVE gotten better.

But there has been some lack of outreach to the ones who create content for free for you lately. I understand that it has been a busy time between 2.8 going live and now heading towards the next Major release no doubt.

The fact remains though, as much I love FG I don't see it surviving without more support to the ones that create content. Especially when just the ability to create your own content is one of the major selling points.

With the current focus on D&D actually going to a level where even other payed for rulesets lag behind and/or break it at the least appears as if the other rulesets are being somewhat less favoured.

[Zeus]

Yep I understand this entirely, however to date the community has not seen many (if any) non D&D specific improvements to FGII in a couple of years. I very much look forward to FGIII, but as it currently stands, I have ran maybe 3 games using FGII in the last two years, as the focus has been on D&D, and I find World of Warcraft to be more enjoyable than D&D... and that says a lot, because I don't particularly enjoy WoW.

Is this strictly true? There are a number of non-D&D rulesets that have been updated quite frequently over the last two years including Savage Worlds, GURPs, WHFRP, Shadowrun, BRP, NwoD, RoleMaster and Ars Magika. Granted, the updates are not as frequent but they are still updated and to my knowledge allow for a perfectly good game to be run using FGII.

Having said that, v3 should help as it will introduce a base generic ruleset that all other rulesets will be able to be layered upon, the intent being to decrease the effort required to churn out new systems and updates.

[Moon Wizard]

I'm not aware of any changes since v2.6.5 (when I took over as developer) that have broken rulesets, or that strictly required updates with new versions. When I have been informed of any changes to the client that break older rulesets, I have always added compatibility to resolve the issue and allow older rulesets to keep working as they always did.

As far as I know, any updated rulesets were taken on by people who wanted to get some of the new features added they were seeing in the core rulesets added to their favorite game systems.

The core ruleset is my attempt to at least partially ameliorate the situation we are discussing by providing a core set of ruleset capabilities that will be maintained along with FG. I originally started thinking about this idea as a way to keep all the store rulesets up to date, but quickly realized that it applies to all the community projects as well.

I welcome your feedback on this new capability once it is ready. I want to make sure that it will help all ruleset developers, not just myself.

Regards,
JPG

[unerwünscht]

Is this strictly true? There are a number of non-D&D rulesets that have been updated quite frequently over the last two years including Savage Worlds, GURPs, WHFRP, Shadowrun, BRP, NwoD, RoleMaster and Ars Magika. Granted, the updates are not as frequent but they are still updated and to my knowledge allow for a perfectly good game to be run using FGII.

Lets be fully fair here, GURPS, WHFRP, Shadowrun, NwoD, RoleMaster and Ars Magika are all community supported rulesets, and I honestly don't know about Savage Worlds. Anyways, these are rulesets that exist not because of Smite Works but despite them, they get no attention from Smite Works in any way. The rulesets currently maintained by Smite Works are D&D 3.5E and 4th Ed and Pathfinder (and that is just D&D for minmaxers).

I am not trying to belittle the work that has been done here, but there is an indisputable amount of favoritism towards D&D here with FG. Moon is making strides to make rulesets easier for the community to maintain, but this still doesn't change the fact that in the end they still expect the community to create and maintain them.

I personally plan to wait for FGIII to see how things go, but if things do not start looking brighter around here I am going to cut my losses and move on. Obviously Smite Works is a business and they need to make money, and theoretically the best way to do that is to cater to the biggest game on the market. I just think that by doing that they alienate the remainder of the market.... but obviously I am wasting my breath, and maybe my energy would be better spent trying to convince someone else to add 3D dice to their VTT instead of trying to convince people here that D&D isn't the only game out there.

[Dakadin]

Lets be fully fair here, GURPS, WHFRP, Shadowrun, NwoD, RoleMaster and Ars Magika are all community supported rulesets, and I honestly don't know about Savage Worlds. Anyways, these are rulesets that exist not because of Smite Works but despite them, they get no attention from Smite Works in any way. The rulesets currently maintained by Smite Works are D&D 3.5E and 4th Ed and Pathfinder (and that is just D&D for minmaxers).


As the developer for Rolemaster, I have to disagree with you here. I've found Smiteworks to very helpful. They have been very responsive to questions and to help me work out issues. They've even sent me emails at times asking my opinion about something being developed.

Here are a couple examples from my personal experience. JPG added functionality to FG v2.9.2 so that Raymond and I could redo the graphics for the Rolemaster ruleset.
Just a few weeks ago he pointed me in the right direction and give me his input on cutting down the memory usage for the Rolemaster attack tables significantly. My test campaign was using around 2.5 GB of RAM when first starting. After changing the way the data is stored, it is less than 0.5 GB. I don't think it would have occurred to me with his help.

I do understand your point when it comes to the rulesets without an active developer. Those rulesets are falling behind but like JPG said he does try to make them compatible if he hears about the issues. In order to keep them functional I would recommended trying them out with test version occasionally so these issues can be found before they become live.

[mattcolville]

Smiteworks is going to go where the customers are.

[unerwünscht]

I have grown completely tired of trying to help this community. It is nice that they value your opinion Dakadin, unfortunately they do not value everyone's. I am also glad that you managed to get some assistance with building your ruleset, but that is not the argument at hand and you know it... everyone knows it, and I will not be dragged into arguing semantics on hopeless topic.

With that said I am just going to move on at this point, I had hoped that I would find the strength to hang in there with all of you till FGII was released, but I can't do it. I fully regret the more than $400 that has been spent here by way of myself, and publicly apologize to everyone I talked into buying Fantasy Grounds over the years.

I wish Smite Works all the best in the future of FG, and sincerely hope that someone manages to figure out that the application needs to be more Virtual Table Top, and less D&D simulation. But I am not going to hold my breath any longer. VTT gaming may be the way of the future just like PDF is the future of books, but just like I prefer the feel of a real book in my hands, from now on I will be sticking with a real wooden table for my games.

[Trenloe]

I wish Smite Works all the best in the future of FG, and sincerely hope that someone manages to figure out that the application needs to be more Virtual Table Top, and less D&D simulation. But I am not going to hold my breath any longer. VTT gaming may be the way of the future just like PDF is the future of books, but just like I prefer the feel of a real book in my hands, from now on I will be sticking with a real wooden table for my games.
Sorry to see you go. Just when it appears that there is such a development change that you are asking for on the horizon - that is, a firm (Smitworks produced) base that incorporates all of the recent development that has gone into the 3.5E and 4E rulesets into a base ruleset with rule specific plugins on top of that.

As M_W pointed out, all of his current development work is not on "D&D" specific functionality at all.

Shame you can't hold on to see if FG III is heading in the right direction for you. All the best with your gaming, wherever and however you play it! :)

[Dakadin]

It wasn't my intent to turn you off of FG. I just disagreed with things happening despite Smiteworks.

I agree with you that if there isn't an active developer for a ruleset then things do start to fall behind as FG advances. The main problem is the amount of time it takes to develop a ruleset.

I would like to hear your ideas for how you would like to see the VTT functions developed. What would you like to see that would help you run games better?

[phantomwhale]

I hear the frustration - and heck, if I had a good, reliable face-to-face group to play the RPGs I play, I confess I'd be on FGII a lot less; VTTs are no replacement for real world play, and where they do offer superior value (heavy bookeeping / tracking / private messaging) are aspects of RPGs I moved away from a while ago.

But whilst I a do play more VTT than real-life TT, I'm still keeping my bucks on FGII. There are a LOAD of things it doesn't get right yet, but there are so many things it does do that other VTTs aren't set up for. And with the supportive attitude of a number of good players and Smiteworks staff, it seems the best place to push things forward. Even if the quantity of support can't be to our liking.

Maybe I'm naive and should expect more for my dollars, but I really think this is a niche hobby, and we are writing niche tools for this hobby (one that people, primarily, would rather play face-to-face). There is a challenge to consolidate in FGIII such that the good will and efforts of the community give us more bang for the buck, by aiming towards better components and reuse between rulesets.

A shame to lose you, unerw&#252;nscht - understandable, but a shame.

[Oberoten]

It wasn't my intent to turn you off of FG. I just disagreed with things happening despite Smiteworks.

I agree with you that if there isn't an active developer for a ruleset then things do start to fall behind as FG advances. The main problem is the amount of time it takes to develop a ruleset.

I would like to hear your ideas for how you would like to see the VTT functions developed. What would you like to see that would help you run games better?

* Some kind of grouping option for tokens. Would make it plausible to run things like boardgames and maybe even certain wargames. (Move a squad of 40 skellie one by one and you will know what I mean)

* Freestyle rules, not bound by a grid.. GM places a base-distance at the beginning of the game and that is then used to judge distances on the map as a wargame ruler.

* A more viable empty skeleton ruleset to work from when building new stuff. As it is, the first task is always tearing down one of the existing ones to barebones and then go from there.

* Battlemaps is not FG's strongest suite. Focus on the character-sheet and tools for telling stories. Getting the formated text and some kind of faster editing options for that would be nice, heck even if it was in the lines of Wiki markup it'd be better than the current one.

* Tutorials ... It can't be stressed enough that FG's greatest strength is that it is customizeable. But only a handful of people truly knows how to do this. Expand that and you will see a plethora of new material flowing in and new users with it.

[ddavison]

I have grown completely tired of trying to help this community. It is nice that they value your opinion Dakadin, unfortunately they do not value everyone's. I am also glad that you managed to get some assistance with building your ruleset, but that is not the argument at hand and you know it... everyone knows it, and I will not be dragged into arguing semantics on hopeless topic.

With that said I am just going to move on at this point, I had hoped that I would find the strength to hang in there with all of you till FGII was released, but I can't do it. I fully regret the more than $400 that has been spent here by way of myself, and publicly apologize to everyone I talked into buying Fantasy Grounds over the years.

I wish Smite Works all the best in the future of FG, and sincerely hope that someone manages to figure out that the application needs to be more Virtual Table Top, and less D&D simulation. But I am not going to hold my breath any longer. VTT gaming may be the way of the future just like PDF is the future of books, but just like I prefer the feel of a real book in my hands, from now on I will be sticking with a real wooden table for my games.

Unerwünscht, I'm sorry to hear that you think this way and that you don't feel we listen to your suggestions. Listening to what everyone says and being able to satisfy what everyone asks for are often different things. We do our best to accommodate as many people as we can and we make special effort to support long time users -- such as yourself. We partner with outside developers to support as many official published rulesets as we can and I believe RMC, Savage Worlds, Castles & Crusades are better for it. While Moon_Wizard and I are both familiar with D&D, Pathfinder and Savage Worlds, we don't have that level of experience and knowledge with every game system. You really need that to make the rulesets as nice as they can be. When not improving rulesets we know well, we also invest both time and money on improving features for everyone -- such as with the recent additions of token packs that get included for free to everyone.

You've been both our greatest advocate and our greatest detractor over the years. You often bring up a number of great points and your input is valued even when it has been pointing out something you believe is negative. If you do go away, I hope that you at least follow us enough so that you will return at a later date. In the meantime, I would encourage you to send me an email with additional details on what specifically you find lacking. We'd be happy to keep you here.

[JohnD]

I can't help but feel this topic has become sidetracked a bit, however... the last few posts have motivated one of my own in response, in no particular order.

I used to DM face-to-face a lot when I was younger; I was "that guy" that seems to be in every group who has all the books when nobody else can afford them.

When I bought FG it was because my old D&D venues (Neverwinter Nights 1&2) were proving to be too much of a time sink for adding new content. That and my most recent "group" all went their separate ways for one reason or another.

I thought at the time, that I'd never stick with FG if I could find a face-to-face group. After almost a year, I would never go back to face-to-face gaming. As a mid-40s "professional" there simply isn't time to gather a bunch of other adults all in the same place. Work, spouses, family, chores... all take up too much time/energy to be able to do that in my life now. Heck, sometimes even sitting down and the computer after a long day to run a game seems like it requires more energy than I have left in me.

So... FG has been a major boon to me.

What distinguised FG from other options I had been considering (can't even remember what they were frankly), was that it had RMC as a ruleset... not my preferred iteration of the rules, certainly, but still a major drawing point. That particular ruleset has grown in leaps and bounds over the past 11 months. Beyond that, 3.5e/Pathfinder have seen improvements to my mind... and it is hard to fault the team here for focusing on the system with the largest popular following.

I have found with gaming as a hobby, and running games as a DM/GM in particular, that after a while I need a break... it becomes a chore; just one more thing in a long list of responsibilities and commitments. It is a completely different thing to show up for a game as a player, than it is as a game master... that's just fact; even if your adventure content is already there for you in FG ahead of game time. I'd love to find a game that meets my desired style, systems and content... where I could just play... I did find that initially here on FG but that unfortunately didn't last very long for a variety of real life reasons.

I gather Smiteworks is a small-ish core "team"... that does rather limit what can be accomplished, thereby necessitating the "need" for community developers for some of these other rulesets. They are to my mind truly niche products within what is already a niche product itself. Again, it is hard to fault the team here for focusing on the system with the largest popular following.

But I digress... when I find myself getting sour, angry or fed up, I take a few months "off"... and come back re-energized. Maybe that's what would help you unerwünscht... certainly the posts have gotten more and more negative over the past year. If it's not fun... don't do it anymore.

[primarch]

I can't help but feel this topic has become sidetracked a bit, however... the last few posts have motivated one of my own in response, in no particular order.

I used to DM face-to-face a lot when I was younger; I was "that guy" that seems to be in every group who has all the books when nobody else can afford them.

When I bought FG it was because my old D&D venues (Neverwinter Nights 1&2) were proving to be too much of a time sink for adding new content. That and my most recent "group" all went their separate ways for one reason or another.

I thought at the time, that I'd never stick with FG if I could find a face-to-face group. After almost a year, I would never go back to face-to-face gaming. As a mid-40s "professional" there simply isn't time to gather a bunch of other adults all in the same place. Work, spouses, family, chores... all take up too much time/energy to be able to do that in my life now. Heck, sometimes even sitting down and the computer after a long day to run a game seems like it requires more energy than I have left in me.

So... FG has been a major boon to me.

What distinguised FG from other options I had been considering (can't even remember what they were frankly), was that it had RMC as a ruleset... not my preferred iteration of the rules, certainly, but still a major drawing point. That particular ruleset has grown in leaps and bounds over the past 11 months. Beyond that, 3.5e/Pathfinder have seen improvements to my mind... and it is hard to fault the team here for focusing on the system with the largest popular following.

I have found with gaming as a hobby, and running games as a DM/GM in particular, that after a while I need a break... it becomes a chore; just one more thing in a long list of responsibilities and commitments. It is a completely different thing to show up for a game as a player, than it is as a game master... that's just fact; even if your adventure content is already there for you in FG ahead of game time. I'd love to find a game that meets my desired style, systems and content... where I could just play... I did find that initially here on FG but that unfortunately didn't last very long for a variety of real life reasons.

I gather Smiteworks is a small-ish core "team"... that does rather limit what can be accomplished, thereby necessitating the "need" for community developers for some of these other rulesets. They are to my mind truly niche products within what is already a niche product itself. Again, it is hard to fault the team here for focusing on the system with the largest popular following.

But I digress... when I find myself getting sour, angry or fed up, I take a few months "off"... and come back re-energized. Maybe that's what would help you unerwünscht... certainly the posts have gotten more and more negative over the past year. If it's not fun... don't do it anymore.

Hi!

This.

Fantasy Grounds has afforded me a second "golden age" of gaming of which I have not seen since the early 80's.

As another mid to late 40's person with an extremely high powered career it is no longer feasible or realistic to coordinate a group of similar people for a game at a specific locale or time. The amount of work/life interruptions are so common that its impossible to get everyone available. Quite simply, Fantasy Grounds is the SOLE reason I get to play anymore. Cancelled, rescheduled or even games of varying time lengths are now possible without anyone wasting their precious time.

As JohnD, I would also NEVER go back to face to face gaming. I consider VTT gaming superior in every way that matters to me.

Why Fantasy Grounds and not another VTT? Simple. Prior to buying a full license the 1st of January of 2010, I had LITERALLY tried every SINGLE VTT available at the time. Not just downloaded and browsed, but ran games on them. I judge VTT's mainly from the perspective of the DM. I have DM'ed virtually exclusively for 30 years. Fantasy Grounds focus on the character sheet and story, especially the ability to make an actual module for anything from monsters and adventures is priceless to me. I only wish I had something similar in the "old days" so I could have all my home-brewed things once more....

Is fantasy Grounds perfect? No. Nothing is. But compared to whats out there I STILL hold it above all others. Mind you I still look over, demo and use other products, but I always come back to FG.

The Devs, to me at least have been very responsive and productive. They sometimes even manage to give me features I didn't even know I wanted. Now they are working towards the ONE thing I have wanted and has been missing. The ability to modify/create rulesets at a much lower bar than is currently available. Once that is accomplished, I can't really think of anything else I would require the Devs to produce (although no doubt they will surprise me :) ).

I understand their limitations. I am patient in regards to the speed of their offerings. I am also aware of business demands. They must cater to the larger groups in order to obtain more resources and thus be able to fill the gaps in demands of lesser known or used games. That's business.

I will not emigrate to the next version of D&D, but that doesn't mean I don't expect the Devs to dedicate more time and efforts on it. On the contrary. I desire that they put MORE effort into it. Thus, they get a bigger customer base and then have the resources to dedicate to smaller games as well. It may take weeks, months or even a few years, but they get to it. Either directly themselves or providing tools to do it ourselves. This is all I have ever asked of them and so far they have delivered to my satisfaction.

I can understand the disillusionment, the despair and related negativity. Sometimes we wish that "tomorrow" were "today". But such is life.

I wish you the best, take a breather, step back and do other things that you enjoy and perhaps in the future the FG will be closer to what you require. :)

Primarch

[Dakadin]

* Some kind of grouping option for tokens. Would make it plausible to run things like boardgames and maybe even certain wargames. (Move a squad of 40 skellie one by one and you will know what I mean)

* Freestyle rules, not bound by a grid.. GM places a base-distance at the beginning of the game and that is then used to judge distances on the map as a wargame ruler.

I was just thinking about this the other day. Those would both be great additions. I wonder if they could be made with an extension.


* A more viable empty skeleton ruleset to work from when building new stuff. As it is, the first task is always tearing down one of the existing ones to barebones and then go from there.

* Battlemaps is not FG's strongest suite. Focus on the character-sheet and tools for telling stories. Getting the formated text and some kind of faster editing options for that would be nice, heck even if it was in the lines of Wiki markup it'd be better than the current one.

The good news is it sounds like at least some of this will be done in FGIII.


* Tutorials ... It can't be stressed enough that FG's greatest strength is that it is customizeable. But only a handful of people truly knows how to do this. Expand that and you will see a plethora of new material flowing in and new users with it.

What kind of customization tutorials in particular are you looking for?

[Oberoten]

What kind of customization tutorials in particular are you looking for?

I think that Anathomy of a ruleset is a pretty damn good start. We need more scripting tutorials. And this is really the reason why I created the FG-Wiki in the first place. To post script examples and maybe even explanations of what does what.

Downloadable textfiles with the script in, and a dissection on a webpage to tell what does what and how would go a long way.

- Obe

[Oberoten]

Putting my money where my mouth is, and to make the FGwiki a valuable resource again I am going to see about putting up some very basic "How To" sections on it, showing the basics of how to pull variables, database fields and so on.

Anyone who wants to get in and edit, give me a holler and I will set you up with an account. (This way we avoid the spam for russian insurance companies I have had to delete in the past. )

- Obe

[demonsbane]

I know I am not the only ruleset dev that has had to rebuild a lot of their rulesets the last year. Some have dropped of entirely or gone to develop for the competition.

Only reason some systems like GURPS keeps working so well is that the people working on them are willing to put in the work to keep them up to snuff with every twist and turn.

I agree. This situation gives the users a strong feeling of insecurity about the very Fantasy Grounds II app.

For instance, myself being unable to develop or effectively modify a ruleset, if I only play GURPS and the corresponding (community made) ruleset isn't regularly and very carefully maintained with considerable effort, the very app would become useless to me.

After reading the posts of Moon Wizard: if Smiteworks is readying changes for remedying this, that is great.

[Greygor]

Okay, I'm new to FG II and very late to this discussion so apologies if anything I say has already been gone over time and time again.

Here are my current thoughts on FG II (keeping in mind that I do love the product)

Starting as a new FG GM is a bit of a frustrating experience, although there is a User Guide on the library page it often covers everything except the bit of information your looking for :)

The new Library page is a great improvement, but I still find myself scouring the forums looking to find what I need to know.

It would probably be less difficult if I played 4E as there seems to be a lot of info aimed a 4E, but as a Pathfinder GM I do find myself puzzling over how to do certain things within the interface.

I actually find the online manual less useful than having a PDF manual, maybe there is a PDF one but I haven't found it yet.

I currently use FG II as a VTT because of the lack of English speaking groups in my area. However I do see FG II as so much more than just a VTT. It's a fantastic GM organiser to set up your campaigns and adventures.

If I did have a face to face group then I could see myself using FG II as my "GM Screen" in place of the reams of paper I used to bring to the Tabletop. So from that point of view having a version of FG on a tablet (Android and iOS) would be a godsend. However I don't see the Tablet version needing the full abilities of the PC version.

What I could see is the GM version having a lot of what it does now, but with the ability to push updates to the players "client version" e.g. adding items to the players character sheet, updating the players combat tracker etc. How it would do this I've no idea (bluetooth, wfi, email attachment that the player loads in (old school :) )

What I can't see at the moment in face to face play is the need to use maps on the tablet as we do now when utilising it as a VTT. I can still see Battlemats and miniatures being used in F2F play. But there may well be a need to allow targeting (via the combat tracker?) and automation of attack rolls, modifiers, effects etc.

Anyway I'm starting to ramble, so I'll leave my 1 1/2 cents worth there.

[bandrewski]

I vote NO to IPad or tablet support for now

While I own a few tablets I do not see myself using them for a virtual tabletop any time soon. For one the screen area is just too small and they lack the video power to run connected to a monitor at high rez.

I just want to see FGIII - a better more stable product that provides a list of small features and improvements to the current PC application. Stuff like being able to add maps to a campaign live and maybe integration with like Google Meetups.

Do a Kickstarter with an Upgraders Tier for existing users

Fantasy Grounds is still the best virtual tabletop but the competition is starting to grow.

[Greygor]

It would be nice to see more integration within FG. A way to integrate chat would be superb, but I'm not sure if it's practical.

[Honken]

I am coming a little late into this thread, but i guess that is what forums is all about.

I would love some iPad/Tablet support, I would definitely love having my char sheet on a tablet, connected to the FG server that the GM is running. Though i think I am the only one in my gaming group that would like it.

And, the character sheet builder as a start to a future ruleset builder. About all other VTTs have 3.5/Pathfinder support. I think you need to make it easier for people to get into modifying, or making their own rulesets.

/Honken

[Iceman]

I believe that FG should rule the world. No REALLY, this is a serious post.
Imagine a table for eight, each with a small viewscreen in front of each player and a HUGE screen in the center. One person logs in with GM access and the other spots are designated as players.

IN PERSON roleplaying then ensues, with FG controls at the players fingertips and a smart huge viewscreen that flips to face the active player. FG adds some combat animations and polishes it off with a 3d rendering, ala the first Star Wars chess game.

Microsoft is already working on a gaming table, albeit likely for XBOX.
Oh, and if an FG gaming table ever does emerge I DEMAND that you install my long running enhancement idea of a shock device that the GM may deliver to its players at will.

[ddavison]

Iceman, I like it.

[Acroyear]

I agree with Iceman!
battlebox3d.com is creating a unity web based VTT. iTabletop.com too..
Tablet Client/Server would be awesome!

[martel]

i voted for #4 - Ruleset Builder application
because more more people on the site https://www.jdrvirtuel.com dont have the technical knowledge for create for yours games.

GUI rulseset creator as Android Studio of google, for drag and drop design.

[sakmerlin37]

Have any of these actually been started? I didn't read through all the replies, yet; however, I would highly support an ipad/android client.

[ddavison]

The Kickstarter has not been launched. We want to be pretty far along in the prototype stage before we do that. There are always risks and challenges on Kickstarters, but we'd like to have a pretty good idea that they won't be deal breakers for us.

For the Android/iOS app, I think we have a solution that will hit both platforms and the web all at once. Our main developer for this didn't work out and so we are looking to do the development in house. I took a week off from my main job and got some good prototyping in right away but then my time dried up again. That has been the main challenge so far.

[sakmerlin37]

Thanks for the reply, ddavidson. I was just going through kickstarter and was looking for any FGII development or Smiteworks. I'm more than happy to fund development for this system :D

Also, just to clarify from another post, I would be happy to develop, gratis to Smiteworks & transferring all rights to the company, a native Linux client that would take little work to transfer to Macs.

[tdewitt274]

I ran upon this app today. Basically, use Lua to code an iPod/iPad app.

https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/codea/id439571171?mt=8
https://twolivesleft.com/Codea/

I haven't looked at it in depth, but it may be a way to figure out some sticking points. Of course, this is only for iOS.

[mattcolville]

My friends and I here at work have been using FGII to run the game for a while and we just switched from running with each person at their PC and me running from my PC with all of us on Steam chat, to all of us at the gaming table, with a battle mat and painted lead and printed character sheets, but me using FG2 on my laptop to run combat.

It was surprisingly fun! When you can run the game with everyone at the table, you should. There are many efficiencies.

HOWEVER! We all agreed that EVEN BETTER than all of us playing at the table, me on the laptop, them with traditional pen and paper sheets, would be the same setup, battle mat, lead minis, but them all using tablets to manage their characters. If everyone's plugged into the same combat tracker, it would have been a huge improvement.

[Alarian]

Was a big fan back in the early life of FG before version 2 but left for Maptool when it looked like support had stopped. By the time it was bought out, our group was unfortunately heavily invested in Maptool. Some of the ideas here would definitely make it very tempting to come back (especially the tablet stuff), but one thing that would make it a no go has to do with the comment made by ddavison about coming up with a solution that would work on everything at once. If he's talking about a browser based app, it would be a no-go for me and for a ton of other people. Browser based apps tend to be very marginal at best. Please don't say it's a browser based solution.

[ddavison]

We have no plans to turn it into a browser based app. We were looking fairly heavily into Unity based builds, though, and one cool feature is that the Unity player can be embedded in a web browser in addition to running natively on numerous platforms.

[Kapkomm1]

The things I would part with money for are listed in order:

#7 HeroLab Support (including a way to take HL output and copy it into NPCs)
#8 PCGen Support (including a way to take PCGen output and copy it into NPCs)
#4 Ruleset Builder App
#9 Library module builder

The rest I have no interest in.

TIBTK

[Trenloe]

#7 HeroLab Support (including a way to take HL output and copy it into NPCs)
#8 PCGen Support (including a way to take PCGen output and copy it into NPCs)

Which rulesets are you looking to do this for?

There is currently support for HeroLab and PCGen 3.5e/Pathfinder import of characters using the character converter (found in the <FG App Data Directory>\utilities directory) that comes with Fantasy Grounds.

If you're using Pathfinder, the creature parser can (with very minor modifications) import HeroLab and PCGen created statblocks into FG NPCs. https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?15475-Pathfinder-Creature-Parser-Alpha-release

[Kapkomm1]

Which rulesets are you looking to do this for?

There is currently support for HeroLab and PCGen 3.5e/Pathfinder import of characters using the character converter (found in the <FG App Data Directory>\utilities directory) that comes with Fantasy Grounds.

If you're using Pathfinder, the creature parser can (with very minor modifications) import HeroLab and PCGen created statblocks into FG NPCs. https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?15475-Pathfinder-Creature-Parser-Alpha-release

Actually it IS Pathfinder I'm using. So thank you for the info. It seems to be working for me, with one problem that I PM'd you about earlier. Still would like to see more support for the other rulesets.

TIBTK

[Blacky]

What do the contributors get out of each?
The product being financed, isn't it?


#1 - iPad client for Fantasy Grounds
So if we have an Android (or other) portable device, not wanting to waste money on an Apple overpriced product, nothing?

Seems like a really really bad idea to me. Portable mobile code yes, and I guess it wouldn't be more work to do it once and for all instead of tailoring it for iPad.

I don't have an iPad, I never will, and I'm not the only one.


#2 - Expand reach of Fantasy Grounds to more conventions
Possible but limited to geographicaly near individuals. I wont give anything to any US conventions. And, frankly, I don't see the interest of it anyway, but that's me.


#3 - Build Fantasy Grounds Lobby
Not exactly sure what that is. If that's some kind of virtual open space where to get pickup games, I won't give a cent for it, but I may even be motivated to give against it. Roleplaying is so much better when you get to know your players, and you play long campaign. RPG aren't TF2 or L4D games!

Build some basic functionality into the Launch window to allow a global lobby for running games and matching players and GMs who may not know each other previously. Allow GMs and Players to "Like" each other and share their positive experiences with others. Ability to block/ignore users. Ability to interface with the Game Calendar to update last run dates, post openings (for when you are off-line) sign up for games, etc.

And besides, it's too much English speaking centered.


#4 - Ruleset Builder application
Yup much better, that's (for me) the first real crowdfunding idea of the list.


#5 - Map Enhancements
Description:
#1 Built-in Layer support
#2 Line of Sight layer creator
#3 Map builder
No dynamics visibility and lightning?


#6 - Cloud Storage
Absolutely, fanatically, against anything cloud.

But remove the word “cloud” (since what you'll do won't be “cloud” anyway even if such things existed outside marketing conman playbooks) and let's say “automated onthefly online campaign backup”. Meaning I pay a small fee, and each time I game my whole campaign is snapshotted online to a distant server, with data integrity checks and revisions. My whole group never lose more than a couple minutes of game FG data.

I personnally prefer to manage my own backups, but other less geek people could be interested in this feature.

And it's a good moneymaker for SmiteWorks. Quite cheap to do (even done right), and it's some money each month.


#7 HeroLab Expanded support
#8 PCGen Exanded Support
Never used theses, don't need it, don't see the appeal. And I'm guessing that's D&D centered.


Description:
Allow more PCGen import/export options for different systems. Provide a PCGen mapping builder that reads through a PCGen export and allows it to be mapped to any Fantasy Grounds ruleset.


#9 Library module builder
If done correctly, like with respect to microdata and OpenDocument, and have a good robot for published electronic modules, then yes I might be interested.

Just my personal pov and my 2 cents.

Overall, a good crowdfunding, is something that you can't finance otherwise (if you can and crowd-fund it anyway, I'll be against it, and speak against it and loudly, very annoyingly loudly), and pre-sell.

Like, I want a native Linux&Mac software but “the powers that be” don't think it's economically viable. I'm willing to pledge a few bucks for it, and if enough people pledge with me, shazam! Native Linux&Max client!

Same with others things, like unicode support and i18n (in fact, much more important for me than native *nix client). Or client localization. Or some other big ”feature”.

[Blacky]

I hear the frustration - and heck, if I had a good, reliable face-to-face group to play the RPGs I play, I confess I'd be on FGII a lot less; VTTs are no replacement for real world play
Not sure that's everyone opinion.

Myself, I only played remote rpg for around 3 years now, and when I find a good group it's quite as good as in real life. Some things missing, like seing other gamers, before and after chitchat, and so on. But also a lot of things are better. Like not wasting one or two hours taking buses or driving to the game, meaning I can play a lot of weekly evening shorter (like 4 hours) games instead of puting my whole week-end on it, no smokers/anti-smokers wars, being able to play comfortably in hot summers, discovering more new players and playing styles and games, having the vtt handle complicated dices tests (look I roll 14d10, checking for 7 or less, oh the 1's cancel my success but the 10's I need to re-roll… humppfff), much more efficient private messaging, being able to use seamlessly internet to check on things (like wikipedia for my early 18th century catholic priest PC discovering the east indies), and so on.

It's not exactly the same. But it's damn close, and it's neither better or worse than irl tabletop rpg in my opinion.

In fact, I think on the long run, it's the future of pen&paper rpg. And much more for fluently English speakers, who have a lot of other players to draw from.

[Blacky]

[QUOTE=unerwünscht;145621Anyways, these are rulesets that exist not because of Smite Works but despite them, they get no attention from Smite Works in any way.[/QUOTE]
Despite is a strong word.

I don't play D&D (or anything like it), I did for some time but it's not my cup of tea. However, I understand fully that SmiteWorks will not make and maintain a Dresden Files, Stormbringer or Paranoia ruleset. Just not enough players on it.

Agreed some very popular games are ignored by SmiteWorks, like Shadowrun or World of Darkness. But still.

And yes for a long time nothing was moving much. But the 3.x branch of Fantasy Grounds has being in fact dedicated to cleaning up, which is always good, and in fact here profits more to non D&D-Pathfinder-Cthulhu players because it should make it easier to make and maintain community ruleset.

[AstaSyneri]

My point of view (assuming Osarusan's post on page 1 of this thread is accepted as blank truth ;-)):

To excite people about a Kickstarter they have to get something, usable immediately once it's done, and something that gives them a huge benefit when they support it.

Example 1:
Fabled Environments: A High School Floor Plan For RPGs (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1359478628/fabled-environments-a-high-school-floor-plan-for-r)
I absolutely would have backed that at the $100 level to get all the maps at a significant discount, because I think I can use a few of them. Rational? Not really, I'd probably be off a lot cheaper if I bought just the maps I really had to use. Now I am waiting for their next Kickstarter to dump $100 on it...

Example 2:
Hollow Earth Expedition (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/2085348754/revelations-of-mars)
Loved the chance to get the full game at a good price (Sky Pirate: $40 - alas I didn't back it at this point, because it's not supported in FG 2 ;-)).

Example 3:
Kaosball (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/coolminiornot/kaosball)
Companies like Cool Mini or Not make it extremely difficult for you not to invest, because there is so much exclusive stuff that (supposedly) only gets produced for this Kickstarter. Or Add-Ons etc. I really had to fight hard, not to get all the teams. I lost.

I refuse to talk about the Hex TCG Kickstarter.

The point is: People want something extra, they want something complete, they don't want to lose out.

For FG 2 this imho means...


Existing players want new functionality, and more rules sets and adventures produced at professional levels.
Existing GMs also want easier ways to prepare their adventures, more help in "winging it" (More map options, easier ways to expand libraries and make homegrown adventures or convert them from PDFs). Problem: These are the guys that get to pay the most most of the time anyway, and it's only about 20% of the target group :(.
New players want to get the feeling that they just have to buy the program and can sit down and play immediately. That's what some other VTTs are suggesting. It's the discrepancy between marketing and reality.


To get those I believe you'd need a contract with at least one major player these days and offer a ready package.


For example put in native Mac Support, get the Paizo contract with Pathfinder and offer a subscription to all the official adventure paths (etc.).
Or strike a deal with Games Workshop (ouch - but they have become more open to smaller publishers I hear) and Fantasy Flight games to actually support the RPGs (Fantasy and 40K) - I know, sounds like mission impossible.
... White Wolf's game draw a different crowd, I guess, so that's not going to work
Offer bundles of existing stuff and make sure all the stuff gets included. Don't make it 3 Hellfrost adventures, make it all 20 or so - and include lots of graphics to show that this works really well.


Make so many add-ons at attractive prices that people can't resist. Hopefully with the money that comes in, you can update FG to version 3 "Deluxe", add a lot new players to the fold, AND get some major companies to buy into FG 2.

Example: Full + 5 Passive Licenses + SW + all 15 Hellfrost modules for $100 or $120 (yes, I know there aren't 15 of those yet ;-)).

Make videos of people playing the most attractive modules (maybe even as work in progress from modules promised for the Kickstarter) - and there need to be girl's voices in the videos (as actual players).

Hmm. Got me ranting apparently, so there you have my ... 18 or so cents.

[Mgrancey]

Despite is a strong word.

I don't play D&D (or anything like it), I did for some time but it's not my cup of tea. However, I understand fully that SmiteWorks will not make and maintain a Dresden Files, Stormbringer or Paranoia ruleset. Just not enough players on it.

Agreed some very popular games are ignored by SmiteWorks, like Shadowrun or World of Darkness. But still.

And yes for a long time nothing was moving much. But the 3.x branch of Fantasy Grounds has being in fact dedicated to cleaning up, which is always good, and in fact here profits more to non D&D-Pathfinder-Cthulhu players because it should make it easier to make and maintain community ruleset.

Its not just whether they want to or not, there is also the question of whether the company that owns the game is willing to allow Smiteworks to sell official product. This is the reason that FFG only sells physical copies of the new Star Wars RPG they've made, because the cost for rights to sell PDFs was much higher, as it counted as electronic games. I don't know for sure but I doubt that they can shell out a load of cash just so they can sell certain merchandise and hope to earn it back. Especially when Gamers tend to be cheap skates wanting to use Free VTT's. Last time I looked they had a list of companies interested in getting content into FG's store but didn't have people willing to do all the work for the going rate.

Its, amusingly and probably ironic, in how similar the issue is to people wanting to play and people willing to GM. So want a Shadowrun or WoD ruleset, learn LUA and XML and help out!

[Blacky]

Its not just whether they want to or not, there is also the question of whether the company that owns the game is willing to allow Smiteworks to sell official product.
Indeed, there is this too. And in some cases (Shadowrun comes to mind), an “online gaming software” might very well be covered by another license holder (in this example, Microsoft who probably doesn't care at all about virtual tabletop because it's a niche and a small one, but because it's a small niche it's not worth paying lawyers to look at it).

However, this doesn't explain every cases.

But please remember my initial post, I was responding to “community ruleset despite SmiteWorks” and I thought that was quite harsh.


Last time I looked they had a list of companies interested in getting content into FG's store but didn't have people willing to do all the work for the going rate.
It may have something to do with said going rate, which at first glance seems incredibly low (especially when one knows about common sublicense cost). But I may quite be wrong.


Its, amusingly and probably ironic, in how similar the issue is to people wanting to play and people willing to GM. So want a Shadowrun or WoD ruleset, learn LUA and XML and help out!
Or not. I have neither the desire nor the need to play vtt Shadowrun or WoD in any foreseeable future. And on top of that, I need for my players French rulesets, meaning a small niche inside a small niche. Aka never going to happens.

But I should point out that knowing XML (which, FG related, seems incredibly easy, like 3 minutes to explain) and LUA is not enough. The hardest thing to learn is FG, its inner working, undocumented limitations or specifications, and so on. Learning FG is very, very steep; and learning to write ruleset even more so.

But, to get back on track toward my initial post, I think the very near new CoreRPG ruleset and new inherit&cascading system is also a good thing on that topic. Meaning a more limited focus and a clear need for new documentation, almost from scratch. Meaning, there's hope :)

[AstaSyneri]

Mulled the question over once more and have come to the result that there is only one Kickstarter that makes sense:

Make FG go "all the way", i.e. offer "native" Mac support.

That's apparently the feature that is sofar blocking official Paizo support, so you could combine the Kickstarter with official Paizo books and Adventure Path Modules. all other games are secondary in importance.

In my eyes that would break the sound barrier.

Problem of course is to get that Mac programming done.

I would support that Kickstarter (Offer some nice add-on packages at a discount that are already available in the store or will be, and you are set).

[Trenloe]

That's apparently the feature that is sofar blocking official Paizo support, so you could combine the Kickstarter with official Paizo books and Adventure Path Modules. all other games are secondary in importance.
This may have been true a few years ago. Now that Paizo are creating their own VTT I would be incredibly surprised if they ever gave "official" support for any other VTT. "Game Space" is still being developed and is making slow progress, but that is currently where Paizo are going with VTT support...

[Griogre]

Yeah, I agree with Trenloe on Paizo. They are in the same position now that WotC was with 4E. Now they have their own VTT in development I would not expect any licensing to rivals until they believe they have everyone using their VTT that is going to. After that they might do something but that wouldn't be anytime soon.

[graphil]

I would like to add another suggestion to the list but not sure on the feasibility. Integrate the principle that skylanders has for storing information on a character and integrating it with the game. So a character's information would be on a figure that you store all the character stats. Using the portal, when you put the character on it the information transfers to fantasy grounds. All the changes happening in the game reflect to the data stored on the figure.

[AstaSyneri]

This may have been true a few years ago. Now that Paizo are creating their own VTT I would be incredibly surprised if they ever gave "official" support for any other VTT. "Game Space" is still being developed and is making slow progress, but that is currently where Paizo are going with VTT support...

Duh. Talk about being late to the party. I had never heard of Game Space (and judging from the entries on the Paizo website it seems to be far from the second coming yet). But I reluctantly (because I would have preferred a different situation) agree with your assessment.

This changes things, obviously.

What is the next best thing we would want for FG? With my limited experience with the program, I'd say GM support (more map options, making the creation of modules and rulesets easier). That unfortunately takes 80-85% of the target group out of the Kickstarter :(.

[Griogre]

Generally you want some sort of "simplification." You want to make something easier for users, whether its making it easier to make rulesets, use a tablet, finding a game or reducing prep time in some way. The main problem is "simplicity" typically leads to complexity which adds to the learning curve.

Players would not necessarily be opposed to supporting something for GM's if it gave them more of the things they want - more and better varied games to play in.

[Mellock]

Players would not necessarily be opposed to supporting something for GM's if it gave them more of the things they want - more and better varied games to play in.

This is why I would support a ruleset builder. Not because I would use it, but because it would give smaller game companies tools to try out FG. I got this impression that dealing with the big companies just isn't very fast or easy, so perhaps there's fun to be had with the smaller ones. And ultimately, perhaps it would lead to more exposure and players.

[thrylax]

While I own a couple tablets and like the idea of being able to use them for FG2, I don't think its a feature I would use all that often. I usually spend most of my FG2 time running the games, so I personally would like to see more features added to FG2. I love the dynamic lights and line of sight ideas, as well as particle effects as well.

But really my biggest gripe is how cluttered my screen gets with all the maps, notes and tokens that I need to just run my game. How bout a tab system of some sort, where we can place all our notes on one tab, all the player handouts on another and the maps on a 3rd. Maybe you could break up the desktop area into 4 sections rather than just the one that is there now. Give GM's (or players) the ability to "zoom out" to the tabletop as a whole and show some default images to denote what each section of the table holds (maps in one, GM notes in another, character sheets in a 3rd, and reference books in the last). Then, the GM could run the game by switching back and forth between each section as he needed. Need to move some tokens on the battlemap, zoom into there, make your move, then zoom over to the area with your character sheet. While looking at your sheet, you need to reference a rule about an ability on it, so zoom over to the reference part of the table and look it up. Then when that done, zoom back to the battlemap and make your moves.
Oh yeah, dynamic light and line of sight too. I'd definately support a kickstarter for these features.

By the way, any word of when this kickstarter is gonna be up and running?......hurry up and take my money!!!

[Mgrancey]

There is a tab system for everything but the Library and Tokens. Admittedly being able to change the icons and colors could be improved.

Honestly, while the dynamic lighting, and LOS is nice and shiny, that is even more work on my side as a GM I would have to do that I'm not particularly wanting to do. After all for that to work, you have to apply what blocks LOS and light, which would honestly be time consuming I expect.

I prefer Fantasy Grounds over the VTT's that I have seen, I prefer substance to style, function to form. The 3D, dynamic lighting and LOS are shiny and all, but I want function over form. There are other functional VTT's but they are limited to 3.5 & 4e DnD, and Pathfinder. Fantasy Grounds runs multiple systems with much more functionality than I have found anywhere else, only one has come close, though right now I forget the name.

[damned]

Spamming this thread!

Fantasy Grounds Virtual Con 3 is here - plenty of player slots available and just enough time for GMs to add any new games! Follow my signature for more info!

[Blacky]

Don't care.

[Muttley]

I have a FG licence, but have been looking for an Android tablet version of a virtual tabletop. Having found none I came across this thread. I would definately back a KS project for an Android/Tablet version of FG2.

P.S I know about the already existing 3D Virtual Tabletop for Android but I dont want 3D and the App is pants

[borusa32]

ipad app is the one to go with

[heatsink]

I'm with Thrylax that one of the biggest frustrations with FG (both as a player and a DM) is shortage of screen real estate. Rather than tabs, I'd like to be able to connect additional devices to be additional displays for my Windows based FG session. Pop up a second FG Window on you second PC screen. Connect in you phone and pop the combat tracker on there. Connect in you tablet and pull up you reference library stuff there.

And while we are on the subject of screen space, why can't the PFRPG character sheet be resized bigger? Its so painful having to scroll so much on the actions tab when you have a high level character with lots of spells plus additional spell "classes" for feat, magic item, hex effects etc.

[Trenloe]

And while we are on the subject of screen space, why can't the PFRPG character sheet be resized bigger? Its so painful having to scroll so much on the actions tab when you have a high level character with lots of spells plus additional spell "classes" for feat, magic item, hex effects etc.
Open the "MINI" character sheet - that can be resized.

[ColinBuckler]

I would have to disagree with a dedicated iPad or android version tbh - If you were to consider this kind of functionality, I would suggest a HTML5 wrapped application might be a better choice - this would allow any HTML5 device to use FantasyGrounds.... iPads/Android/Windows8 RTM/Windows8 Pro/Mac's/Linux...etc should then be able to use the same application, surely this is a better solution all round?

Personally, I would run a remote desktop connection on my android or iPhone device and control my PC that way over WiFi. FG is not a graphics hungry application like a game (i.e. needing decent FPS) and you could utilise the processing power of your PC.

[ddavison]

Pop up a second FG Window on you second PC screen.

Are you familiar with running it in a Windowed mode and dragging the dimensions of the window across multiple monitors? As long as you have your 2nd monitor set to Extended Desktop mode, Fantasy Grounds will treat it as one very wide monitor. I normally run this way as opposed to running in Maximized/Full-screen mode anyway since it works better when I navigate to other apps.

[unerwünscht]

Are you familiar with running it in a Windowed mode and dragging the dimensions of the window across multiple monitors? As long as you have your 2nd monitor set to Extended Desktop mode, Fantasy Grounds will treat it as one very wide monitor. I normally run this way as opposed to running in Maximized/Full-screen mode anyway since it works better when I navigate to other apps.

I have to agree, this is also how I run.

[Griogre]

I do as well, since it allows me to drag FG over 1 and 1/2 screens and have a PDF or something else open on the other half screen.

[mattcolville]

I do sometimes wish FG3 had a PDF viewer.

[Valarian]

Why? It would only do the same as any other PDF viewer. Unless you're talking about sharing pages with players, in which case that would be a huge network burden - you'd have to transmit the entire page in an interpreted form (PDF to HTML for example). There'd have to be reference windows for each type of PDF layout (half page image, quarter page image, text sidebar), with Lua code to put the correct PDF elements in to the correct areas of the window.

Better to stick with the PDF viewer, which is designed for reading PDFs, and leave Fantasy Grounds to the running of a game. One application can do everything, badly, or you can use the correct tools for the job. Would you use a lathe to hammer in a nail, or would you use a hammer?

[mattcolville]

When I run the game, I'm constantly switching between FG and a PDF and it would just be NICE, merely CONVENIENT, to have the PDF in a window in the app. That's all. It's not a feature request, I'm not complaining, It's not a knock AGAINST FG2, I'm WELL AWARE of creeping featurism, everyone relax.

[damned]

@mattcolville never fear Matt! I think we are relaxed - its just the words on the page start looking angry sometimes :)
I find the same - I have 2 or 3 PDFs open, a hardback book as well, a couple of folders on the computer and then ALL the info already in FG... there is a lot to juggle.

[Thete]

@mattcolville never fear Matt! I think we are relaxed - its just the words on the page start looking angry sometimes :)
I find the same - I have 2 or 3 PDFs open, a hardback book as well, a couple of folders on the computer and then ALL the info already in FG... there is a lot to juggle.

It might be nice to be able to share PDFs via fantasy grounds or an option to see/link to PDFs in a folder in the app data directory that then load in an external PDF viewer.

Regarding building a PDF viewer, that would be nice, but I find Foxit advanced PDF editor is unsurpassed for cut/pasting content into FG as it preserves the correct formatting like a BOSS (no more unnecessary line breaks).
But yeah,being able to see game relevant PDFs from within FG and define a default external viewer...that could save a few extra essential brain cycles.

[Blacky]

When I run the game, I'm constantly switching between FG and a PDF and it would just be NICE, merely CONVENIENT, to have the PDF in a window in the app. That's all. It's not a feature request, I'm not complaining, It's not a knock AGAINST FG2, I'm WELL AWARE of creeping featurism, everyone relax.
What's he saying is that you can already have the PDF viewer of your choice. Or Libreoffice, or a web page, or whatever. Just open it. Anything you like, even TeX documents. Or more to the point, since it's currently the one true way of publishing electronic books, ePub.

Why would FG needs to reinvent the wheel? Just open your FG on one screen and the PDF on another. Or FG on half a screen and the PDF on another half.

[jshauber]

Why do you need a PDF viewer at all? Just cut/paste into FG as a story (or multiple entries for easy of management), and you should have everything you need to run the game from inside FG. If there is relavent data you need to share with the party then either set it as a chat window or put it in a note and share the note.

Pics/maps are easily saved as JPG or PNG and then can be manipulated in Paint Shop or GIMP to make them more size manageable.

I set up entire PFS scenarios in under two hours and never have to open anything else while running them, except maybe the pathfinder reference page in a browser to look up obscure stuff.

[Niles]

What I think would be cool is a tab on the character sheet that shows your entire character as an avatar. Also, slots that show what you're epuipped with so all you have to do is mouseover parts of your avatar and it says what you have outfitted like armor, magic items, clothing, ect...like this: 6469