Potential New User - d20Pro vs. FG 2 - Which to Choose?

[JohnD]

Hey everyone.

I've DMed for over 25 years. Last 9 or so I've done the on-line iteration using NWN and NWN2.

I'd like to get away from those games because the toolset work required for an ongoing game really is starting to get beyond what my free time will allow.

Looking at on-line PnP style gaming options, I can find 2; d20 Pro and Fantasy Grounds 2.

I hope I won't be seen as a troll or disturber... I'm interested in knowing why people here think I should choose Fantasy Grounds 2 as my platform over the other package.

Thanks in advance for the help!

[Doswelk]

FGII has dice you pick up and throw!!!!

To be honest that was the final clincher when I was playing D20 Modern at the time.

I've never used D20 Pro but judging by its name it can only play D20?

FGII does not limit you a specific system I have used FGII to play:

D20 Modern
D20 OGL
Alternity
BOL
Paranoia
D6 Games
Savage Worlds

Hope that helps (if not then I am sure someone more informed than myself will pop along soon) :)

[Trenloe]

I actually bought d20 Pro before Fantasy Grounds, but I ended up not even running one game. The things that made me move to Fantasy Grounds are:

It's like playing a normal face-to-face RPG - it has dice, character sheets and multiple images that you can move around displaying more than 1 at a time.
Rolling dice.
Character sheets where you do the roll you need right from the character sheet itself. In d20Pro you need to navigate a menu system to do "stuff" with your character. It works, but I much prefer the character sheet implementation in FG.
You can have multiple images open at a time - multiple maps, handouts, library windows, etc.. d20 Pro is limited to the background wallpaper being the 1 map you're playing on and viewing 1 handout at a time.
The flexibility of FG to play non d20 games.

Those are the main ones - d20 Pro works fine, it's just not for me once I discovered what Fantasy Grounds can do.

[unerwünscht]

Remember those old AOL CD's that everyone used as beer coasters back in the day? D20 Pro swag is what people use now at GenCon. Trust me, go with Fantasy Grounds you will not regret it.

[JohnD]

One thing I notice looking at the "demo" is that it seems like there isn't much I can do with it. I'm going to assume I'm missing something....

I've watched a little bit of the videos... I understand them going fast but I suspect if I were already well versed in the software, they'd make perfect sense; as a noob all they do is cause confusion. Perhaps time to watch them again without the cat sleeping on the laptop.

[dr_venture]

I don't know about D20 Pro, but FG has a great community here. It's one of FG's biggest assets, really, having a lot of folks who a patient enough to answer those same old questions time and time again. You got 'em - I had 'em too when I first started using the app (in fact, I remember the UI being fairly counter-intuitive in several ways when I first started playing). No worries, as somebody up here will help when you need it, and it doesn't take too long to come up to speed once you start using it. It will also depend on the ruleset one of it's great strengths (and ultimately weaknesses, too) is that there is a ton of flexibility available to ruleset developers. So something like the Rolemaster ruleset has a ton of functionality that doesn't even exist in any of the other rulesets.

The biggest bit of advice I can give is that when you're starting out, laun ch FG on your computer as a GM, then launch program *again* and choose to join the game you just started as GM. Doing that, you participate in some practice session as both GM and player, and you can see exactly what info goes back and forth from both perspectives. It was *very* helpful for me when I was picking it up. Actually, I still do the same thing as a GM - I always log in as a player too, just so I can click over and get a reality check during a game session and see what teh players are seeing.

[Dakadin]

I think I ended up watching Xorn's videos at least 4 times each. At first I was completely overwhelmed but I slowly started putting things together and it started making sense. I also would rewind them a bit so I could watch a confusing portion again.

It might not look like you can do much at this point but you will be amazed at how much you can do if you aren't afraid to dig in a bit.

[JohnD]

Thanks guys... I've got the Hero Labs application and am looking at FG2 for my next purchase.

I don't know if it'll ultimately be worth it; I don't have any players yet (well maybe one), and I have a learning curve to go through.

I probably could use a "demo" game to join where someone who knows what he's (she's) doing can give me a "this is how it's supposed to go" run around. First things first... buying the program.

[GunnarGreybeard]

The biggest bit of advice I can give is that when you're starting out, laun ch FG on your computer as a GM, then launch program *again* and choose to join the game you just started as GM. Doing that, you participate in some practice session as both GM and player, and you can see exactly what info goes back and forth from both perspectives. It was *very* helpful for me when I was picking it up. Actually, I still do the same thing as a GM - I always log in as a player too, just so I can click over and get a reality check during a game session and see what teh players are seeing.I would certainly agree with this. I still do it (connect as an NPC) so I can "see" exactly what the players see on their end during the game.

[Griogre]

I don't know if it'll ultimately be worth it; I don't have any players yet (well maybe one), and I have a learning curve to go through.
What game(s) are you thinking of running? I will tell you - just like in face to face games - there are always more players looking for games than GM's running so if you run something reasonably popular at a time where players from the Americas and Western Europe can play you won't have much problem finding players.


I probably could use a "demo" game to join where someone who knows what he's (she's) doing can give me a "this is how it's supposed to go" run around. First things first... buying the program. It'll help as well if you can sit in as a spectator on a game or two where someone is using the same system you plan to use.

[JohnD]

What game(s) are you thinking of running? I will tell you - just like in face to face games - there are always more players looking for games than GM's running so if you run something reasonably popular at a time where players from the Americas and Western Europe can play you won't have much problem finding players.

It'll help as well if you can sit in as a spectator on a game or two where someone is using the same system you plan to use.
Well, Greyhawk is my favourite setting... edition of the game doesn't really matter as much to me as the setting... probably 3.5e I suppose.

I love the Rolemaster Standard System (RMSS), but that's not the same as "Classic"; not sure if there's a huge difference.

I'm in CST (GMT -6) right now, and the nights for a game are probably quite variable due to my work schedule.

I'd love to spectate a game if that's possible. Probably need to start out with a small number of players until I get the hang of everything.

[Magnatude]

if you want a demo game, I'm hosting one on the 29th (6pm Pacific/8pm your time) for Castles and Crusades, so if you still have the demo you can join my game without purchasing FG2.
There should be a few more people like you with Demo versions joining up.

I use skype tho so we voice everything to make the gaming a lot more faster... and more like the pen/paper/tabletop atmosphere.

[JohnD]

Does the full version have more portraits than the 8 or so I seem to be able to find with the demo?

[Magnatude]

you can make your own portraits... I have billions of them... I jest...

Yeah you can make your own, I use that Tokentool java app thats free, works great at making them.

[Dakadin]

You can add any picture you want as a portrait. I just do web searches for portraits. Scale them down to about 100 pixels to a side max. Then you just copy them to the Portraits directory in your Fantasy Grounds Application Data Folder. You can get to the folder by clicking Start, Programs, Fantasy Ground II, Application Data Folder.

One thing to be aware of is portraits are local to your machine so your connecting players won't have access to them. Lately, I've been using DropBox to share a folder with my players so we can just share our portraits and grab the ones we want.

[Ardem]

I love the Rolemaster Standard System (RMSS), but that's not the same as "Classic"; not sure if there's a huge difference.


I have made a RM FRP extension for RMC, which is 99% the same as RMSS, so you should be right to play RMSS based on what I have done.

RMC is more like RM1 or 2 in my opinion, to me it feel like RM-lite but others swear by it.

Not trying to self promote but if you like a style it nice to note the work has been already done for it.

for more details https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15963

[JohnD]

Sorry for all the questions... I'm really close to deciding and FG2 is looking like the clear leader.

Tokens; I don't appear to have any. In the sample campaign, I open the Goblin Leader and he doesn't have a token and I can't figure out how to add one to him.

[Ardem]

You will need to drag any tokens you wish to use into the C:\Users\%username%\AppData\Roaming\Fantasy Grounds II\tokens folder (Windows Vista and above).

I don't believe any come with it but there are plenty of free ones on the net if google for them.

[Moon Wizard]

You will actually need 2 subfolders (host, shared) under the tokens subfolder. The host tokens are only visible in the GM token bag, while the shared tokens are visible in both the GM and player token bags. Any tokens shared on the map are visible to all players (unless specifically hidden using the token visibility features).

Regards,
JPG

[lachancery]

Hmmm. JohnD's questions reminds me of my confusion in the first month...

@ Moon_wizard: how about adding shortcuts for new users in the launch page. Each shortcut would open up the folder (in windows explorer) and have a description. Some shortcut examples: tokens, GM only; tokens, shared; images (require selecting a campaign first).

@ JohnD: I run a Rolemaster classic (like RM 2nd edition) game set in Middle-Earth on Friday nights at 9:30pm eastern time. You're welcome to come observe if you'd like. Unfortunately, with 6 players, the party is full, but it would give you a decent idea how FG feels. We're currently using Skype for voice chatting.

[Moon Wizard]

Good idea. I'm going to add it to my wish list.

Regards,
JPG

[JFK]

Hey JohnD,

Welcome to Fantasy Grounds II.

I too am a long time (decades *sigh*) DM who used NWN to get my fix. I too found the prep time becoming too much to bear, and sought another method for playing/DMing. I tried several online programs before deciding on Fantasy Grounds II. It seems to offer the closest thing to full tabletop experience.
That said, of course, as in any RPG including face-to-face, prep time can be almost as little or as much as the DM allows. What I mean is, I've found that with all FGII can do, I was getting a bit caught up in working on making the experience 'perfect' and 'incredible', and that was at the expense of actually playing.
For example, one can make and use incredibly detailed and wonderful maps to use in FGII. There are many hundreds of great maps people have made, given freely for use in a game. But, I've also found that sometimes simple is better. Fantasy Grounds II allows any level of map prep, just like tabletop. Lately I've found I prefer (and my players do too) simply drawing out most maps on the spot - easy to do in FGII. I spend my time instead describing where they are, what it looks, smells, sounds, feels like. No map will match their imaginations, after all. Now my maps are mostly for placement and orientation, not eye candy. Of course, if I want to (and sometimes I do want to) I can still use a beautiful map for a specific combat or otherwise encounter. The magic of FGII is that I don't have to.

Start small, like you might have done all those years ago learning to DM. Observe. Learn. Add.

I like the idea of using a VoIP, but admit I haven't done so with FGII. I like the meta information available (emotes, moods, etc) with text.

The biggest strength is that Fantasy Grounds doesn't make you run a certain game. Rather, it allows you to run YOUR game.

Have fun!

JFK

[JohnD]

Hmmm. JohnD's questions reminds me of my confusion in the first month...

@ Moon_wizard: how about adding shortcuts for new users in the launch page. Each shortcut would open up the folder (in windows explorer) and have a description. Some shortcut examples: tokens, GM only; tokens, shared; images (require selecting a campaign first).

@ JohnD: I run a Rolemaster classic (like RM 2nd edition) game set in Middle-Earth on Friday nights at 9:30pm eastern time. You're welcome to come observe if you'd like. Unfortunately, with 6 players, the party is full, but it would give you a decent idea how FG feels. We're currently using Skype for voice chatting.
Shortcuts would be a great thing to have, especially as a new user - perhaps a user toggle in a config file somewhere as to whether or not you want to display them.

One thing I notice is that the videos all have great meat there, but everything is gone over too fast to pick up unless you watch multiple times (i.e. >3)... the average guy isn't going to invest that much time if he's casual about his interest. I feel probably there are sales being lost because of that, just my opinion obviously.

Rolemaster is right next to the Greyhawk setting in my hierarchy of loved RP systems/settings. Even as a non-participant, I'd love to just observe/listen.

[JohnD]

Hey JohnD,

Welcome to Fantasy Grounds II.

I too am a long time (decades *sigh*) DM who used NWN to get my fix. I too found the prep time becoming too much to bear, and sought another method for playing/DMing. I tried several online programs before deciding on Fantasy Grounds II. It seems to offer the closest thing to full tabletop experience.
That said, of course, as in any RPG including face-to-face, prep time can be almost as little or as much as the DM allows. What I mean is, I've found that with all FGII can do, I was getting a bit caught up in working on making the experience 'perfect' and 'incredible', and that was at the expense of actually playing.
For example, one can make and use incredibly detailed and wonderful maps to use in FGII. There are many hundreds of great maps people have made, given freely for use in a game. But, I've also found that sometimes simple is better. Fantasy Grounds II allows any level of map prep, just like tabletop. Lately I've found I prefer (and my players do too) simply drawing out most maps on the spot - easy to do in FGII. I spend my time instead describing where they are, what it looks, smells, sounds, feels like. No map will match their imaginations, after all. Now my maps are mostly for placement and orientation, not eye candy. Of course, if I want to (and sometimes I do want to) I can still use a beautiful map for a specific combat or otherwise encounter. The magic of FGII is that I don't have to.

Start small, like you might have done all those years ago learning to DM. Observe. Learn. Add.

I like the idea of using a VoIP, but admit I haven't done so with FGII. I like the meta information available (emotes, moods, etc) with text.

The biggest strength is that Fantasy Grounds doesn't make you run a certain game. Rather, it allows you to run YOUR game.

Have fun!

JFK
Thanks JFK.

When I started out, all I did was DM for one player... probably will start out this way with FG2 as well.

I don't forsee me exchanging 20 hours/week in the NWN2 toolset for 20 hours/week in Photoshop or some other program making maps look nice. I'll simply draw/scan a B/W map and go from there.

I'd rather spend my free time playing instead of preparing.

I do think however, that the FG2 team could do a better job putting an initial tutorial together; set up new campaign and module, create an area/map, generate a PC, compile an encounter, apply effects, create items, conduct combat, etc....

The videos are great, but for me at least, I find they go way too fast and gloss over the more basic functions about setting everything up (hope this is seen as constructive feedback).

Edit: Perhaps I'm from the wrong generation (I'm in my 40s)... could be why I find the videos going too fast.

[Dakadin]

The videos were fast for me also at least until I started to figure out what I was doing. They make a lot more sense after you've had a chance to play a time or two.

[Ardem]

The best way to watch the videos are in conjunction with FG open and using and testing. Actually even the hardest video tutorials run to fast or gloss over (aka. maya tutorials) I had to do it this way to understand the process.

[ddavison]

I just wanted to add my 2 cents and say that I think starting with one GM and one player is by far the easiest way to get going. Before you go this far, it is also a good idea to have a player and GM version up and running on your same computer to walk through the features and figure out when you need to share a map, etc. Having a helpful player that can give feedback along the way is a good idea too. Don't hesitate to ask your player if they are seeing what you are doing on the screen at various points.

In this vein, there are some very nice 1 on 1 adventure modules that include all the maps, npcs, etc from Expeditious Retreat Press available from the store. They are D20 based, but they are pretty easy to get up and running and are very well done IMO. Even if you don't stick with D20 or Pathfinder, it might be worth running through one just to see the various features of FG highlighted.

[damned]

having a player who has played FG helps too! i was completely new - well i had played one demo session previously - when i hosted my first game as CK (castles&crusades) - geez im glad some of teh players were patient! im still learning and still making mistakes... sometimes i just stop in the middle of the game and ask one of my players how you do this or that :)

[Trenloe]

The videos are great, but for me at least, I find they go way too fast and gloss over the more basic functions about setting everything up (hope this is seen as constructive feedback).

Edit: Perhaps I'm from the wrong generation (I'm in my 40s)... could be why I find the videos going too fast.
I found the videos run too fast to learn too, but all I did was pause the video after each piece of information and then checked it in FG which I had running at the same time (as Ardem mentions), rewind the video a bit, try in FG again, play, pause...

[wbcreighton]

having a player who has played FG helps too! i was completely new - well i had played one demo session previously - when i hosted my first game as CK (castles&crusades) - geez im glad some of teh players were patient! im still learning and still making mistakes... sometimes i just stop in the middle of the game and ask one of my players how you do this or that :)

Agree completely. Even if you just start as a player and the GM is understanding, I found I learned a lot by just stopping the GM and asking: "How did you do that ?" Or having an experienced player who chimes in to say: "It is easier if you click on the icon in the top corner and hold the CTRL button down you can do this..."

I find most players and GMs like to share their superior knowledge of FG, makes them feel good. :)

[JohnD]

Thanks for the tips everyone... I really appreciate all the input.

I purchased an Ultimate license (will have to dodge the rolling pin coming my way courtesy of the ball/chain...) and have dived in to trying to figure everything out. I have a potential game posted for 04/20 and player interest seems high (full already)... hoping I don't disappoint.

I've observed a game from the player perspective; it made a huge difference in how I looked at the software the next time I opened it. I'm wondering if there is a way to observe from a DM's viewpoint as well.

Essentially is there a way to have more than one DM?

[Dracones]

Essentially is there a way to have more than one DM?

Not at the moment.

[Trenloe]

I'm wondering if there is a way to observe from a DM's viewpoint as well.

Essentially is there a way to have more than one DM?
Not within the software itself. But, if you used some kind of conferencing/desktop sharing software it would be possible for 2 people to see the same screen and one person take control at a point in time.

[Dakadin]

I will actually be testing this out tonight. I will let you know how it goes.

[madman]

Wow I never thought of that. Gonna try it myself.

Thanks

Chris

[Dakadin]

Lachancery and I just did it using Mikogo starter and it worked really well. We were even able to switch back and forth between each others screens. The response time was pretty good also.

[Trenloe]

Lachancery and I just did it using Mikogo starter and it worked really well. We were even able to switch back and forth between each others screens. The response time was pretty good also.
Cool - what can you do with a free account with Mikogo?

I'm going to be doing a DM intro session tonight and I'm thinking of using VNC, but haven't decided yet. Down sides of VNC is that you need to setup port-forwarding on your router and let people know the IP address to connect to. No different from running FG really... I'll let you know how it goes.

[Dakadin]

We started out connecting using Skype. Then I started up a Mikogo host session and told Lachancery the 9 digit ID number so he could join my session. He was then able to connect to my session and see my screen so I could walk him through things. From there I could share control with him if he wanted to show me something. Then we tested switching over to his screen when he wanted to show me something. It worked really well.

Here is a link to the starter version from CNet: https://download.cnet.com/Mikogo/3000-2654_4-10697957.html.

It says that it can be used for up to 10 connections. I am going to do a test today to see if I can get at least 5 connections. I will try to see if I can get to 10.

[Trenloe]

Here is a link to the starter version from CNet: https://download.cnet.com/Mikogo/3000-2654_4-10697957.html.

It says that it can be used for up to 10 connections. I am going to do a test today to see if I can get at least 5 connections. I will try to see if I can get to 10.
Good that it worked well for you. :)

I looked on the Mikogo site and as far as I can see, a paid account is needed after the free trial (14 days). The minimum paid account costs $13/month and allows 3 participants. OK, so I could create a new trial account every time I needed to use this, but I'm looking for a more "lasting" solution. Unfortunately, most web based meeting/sharing solutions will require a subscription I would imagine.

I'll let you know how VNC goes...

[Dakadin]

The starter version is free if used for non-commercial purposes. It displays a message at the bottom when you are hosting. I just tested and the host can have 3 people connect so it might not work for what you are trying to do anyway. Other than that you should be able to use it.

Oh, and they just recently started charging for it at all. It used to be free for all use in the past. We used to use it at work until it changed but I still use it for personal things.

[Dakadin]

And the 14 day trial is only for certain advanced features. The screen sharing and switching presenters is still usable after 14 days which is all I really use it for.

[Trenloe]

The starter version is free if used for non-commercial purposes. It displays a message at the bottom when you are hosting. I just tested and the host can have 3 people connect so it might not work for what you are trying to do anyway. Other than that you should be able to use it.
Cool - looks good, I didn't spot the free feature set. Now, I have 2 people for my session tonight - should I try VNC or this? Hhhmmmm.... I suppose it might depend on where the data goes to/comes from. I'm concerned that my slow internet connection won't be able to cope with Fantasy Grounds GM host, Audio to Ventrillo and VNC pushing data to more than one location. But, I'm assuming Mikogo is all connections to/from a server - so this would reduce bandwidth from my side for multiple connections.

I may try both tonight...

[Dakadin]

Let me know how it turns out and which one works better if you do both.

I am going to be doing something similar within the week.

Good luck. :)

[Trenloe]

Let me know how it turns out and which one works better if you do both.
Ended up just using VNC and this worked fine. I was sharing quite a large screen and I didn't have any complaints from the 2 people who were both connected. The only potential issue is that there are a couple of settings you rely on the person connecting (VNC Viewer) to set - such as "disable inputs" when they're not doing anything in the session.

[Dakadin]

Glad to hear it worked well for you, Trenloe. Thanks for the feedback.

I did it this morning and it worked well using Mikogo with 3 people connected to me. It was nice because we were able to switch between each others screens as needed and there is a prompt for the user to confirm. You also have control over who has control and who is presenting.

[Trenloe]

Glad to hear it worked well for you, Trenloe. Thanks for the feedback.

I did it this morning and it worked well using Mikogo with 3 people connected to me. It was nice because we were able to switch between each others screens as needed and there is a prompt for the user to confirm. You also have control over who has control and who is presenting.
I think Mikogo sounds much easier to use and more feature rich in terms of swapping view/control. A good choice for 3 or less people. :)