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dr_venture
March 14th, 2012, 23:36
I'm that guy who was always complaining that the RM ruleset would crash on me. Well, I had a momentary lapse in judgement a few days back, clicked on what I *thought* was a Microsoft Security Essentials window, and... well... long story short, I have a new computer now. Biggest change is that it has double the memory - 8 GB instead of 4 GB. It'll be interesting to see if I get the same crashing problems.

If it runs OK, well, maybe I'll have to port over my Old West theme and enter the critical tables for Outlaw! Not ready to give up C&C, though - a great system but very different from RM.

Dakadin
March 15th, 2012, 00:08
I've been working pretty hard on an extension to add features and fix issues with the RMC ruleset so please let me know if you have any trouble and I will see if I can track it down and do something about it.

I wish you luck with getting it to run on the new computer. :)

dr_venture
March 15th, 2012, 01:29
Thanks, Dakadin, we'll see what happens. Ihave FG reinstalled and just reinstalled the RM ruleset... are there any important upgrades, etc. for this ruleset? If not, I'll stage a fight between some monsters and a couple characters, and we should know pretty quick what the outcome is.

Dakadin
March 15th, 2012, 02:15
I am a bit biased since I created it but here is a link to the thread with my extension: https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15785. It adds a bit of functionality and fixes a couple issues. The initial post will give you a quick overview with more details further down the thread.

dr_venture
March 15th, 2012, 02:27
I'm assuming I have the latest everything, as far as RM is concerned - it does look like there are some new functionalities, tho it's been a while since I tried RM. I don't appear to be having any crashes, but I am getting some kinda random screen glitches when certain things are clicked on - especially the "Next Actor" button. It seems to me that I'm getting the screen glitches in similar fashion as to when I used to get the crashes. Now every now and then I get a random-sized (but never very large) rectangular area at the bottom of the FG window that gets junk written into it - usually it's sections of the FG window that are being drawn at about 25% size and repeated in the rectangular area, rubber-stamp-like.

I'll try updating my graphics driver in a bit (I'm just using the onboard graphics with the Dell).

dr_venture
March 15th, 2012, 02:28
I am a bit biased since I created it but here is a link to the thread with my extension: https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15785. It adds a bit of functionality and fixes a couple issues. The initial post will give you a quick overview with more details further down the thread.

I'll check it out - thanks!

dr_venture
March 15th, 2012, 02:46
I am a bit biased since I created it but here is a link to the thread with my extension: https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15785. It adds a bit of functionality and fixes a couple issues. The initial post will give you a quick overview with more details further down the thread.

Wow - I see you're one of the heroes up here who is adding so much value to the product! Many thanks - you're a big part of what makes FG so great - it's the software *and* the community.

We had a guy named Sorcerer over in the C&C group doing the kinds of things that you're doing, but he disappeared without a trace last Fall... we've been languishing a bit ever since. Rm is lucky to have you and some of the others here adding important functionalities. Bravo.

That said, I still haven't actually downlaoded it - I'll do so later tonight!

Dakadin
March 15th, 2012, 04:01
I'm assuming I have the latest everything, as far as RM is concerned - it does look like there are some new functionalities, tho it's been a while since I tried RM. I don't appear to be having any crashes, but I am getting some kinda random screen glitches when certain things are clicked on - especially the "Next Actor" button. It seems to me that I'm getting the screen glitches in similar fashion as to when I used to get the crashes. Now every now and then I get a random-sized (but never very large) rectangular area at the bottom of the FG window that gets junk written into it - usually it's sections of the FG window that are being drawn at about 25% size and repeated in the rectangular area, rubber-stamp-like.

I'll try updating my graphics driver in a bit (I'm just using the onboard graphics with the Dell).

I originally thought the graphics glitch was FG related and not RMC related but I am starting to question that. One thing that I've noticed is if I have FG in windowed mode and have other applications open is when it occurs. If I close the other applications the issue seems to clear up for me. I will see if I can replicate it with consistent results so I can find out if it is a ruleset issue.


Wow - I see you're one of the heroes up here who is adding so much value to the product! Many thanks - you're a big part of what makes FG so great - it's the software *and* the community.

We had a guy named Sorcerer over in the C&C group doing the kinds of things that you're doing, but he disappeared without a trace last Fall... we've been languishing a bit ever since. Rm is lucky to have you and some of the others here adding important functionalities. Bravo.


Thanks I appreciate it but there are a few of us doing work on RMC that I know of. Lachancery has done a lot to help me behind the scenes and I know both Ardem and Trenloe have been working on improvements. RMC activity has really picked up over the last few months which has been great to see. :D

I did see where you were worried about Sorcerer. I hope he is doing well also. I know some of his posts helped me learn a few things about FG.


That said, I still haven't actually downlaoded it - I'll do so later tonight!

Let me know if you have any suggestions for changes. ;)

dr_venture
March 15th, 2012, 05:14
Indeed, thanks to all of you folks out there doing work on this, or any other ruleset for FG!

We'll have to see how things look on this new computer - I haven't used any other rulesets on it yet, so I can't comment on whether or not it happens there too. I did see it in the FG launcher just after I had closed the RM ruleset.

GunnarGreybeard
March 15th, 2012, 05:28
maybe I'll have to port over my Old West theme and enter the critical tables for Outlaw! Now that would be nice. I actually have a copy of Outlaw sitting here at my desk and was reading through it just the other night. Would really like to see you get the chance to put that theme to use.

dr_venture
March 15th, 2012, 05:37
I'm getting a lot of use with it with two groups right now, actually: one groups is getting roped into being 'constables' in Hardin City, NV (a hole-in-the-wall tiny place on the edge of the salt flats where Burning Man is held each year), and the other group (a wrangler, a young flitty bunco artist, and an archeologist carrying around a punt gun in a wagon and looking for living fossils in the untamed west, such as the fabled 'thunderbird') are heading to Paradise Valley, NV and the unfinished Ft. Winfield Scott nearby. Fun will ensue!

Still, Outlaw... would be cool! There are those extra attack, critical, and fumble tables to contend with... so much typing, so little time...

Ardem
March 15th, 2012, 06:20
Dr Venture you also have the option of running a RMSS or RMFRP if your old school type. Unless you prefer checkers <wink> injoke.

RMC has been stable and there is only one bug that I am aware of, which crashed systems and that is the skill group bug. This been fixed in the FRP version. Actually i think I should share this with Dakadin so it resolved in the standard version, although you can avoid it by not grouping the skills section.

The good thing about the three people making enhancements we are not working against each other, we are targeting different areas. Still trenloe needs to get his butt moving on his area.

Dakadin is working on enhancements to make a lot more automation, I am making more specific enhancements so FRP and RMSS work.

Trenloe been making image enhancements. If some speak to me directly I can give you what he has done so far (shh don't tell him)

Trenloe
March 15th, 2012, 06:40
The good thing about the three people making enhancements we are not working against each other, we are targeting different areas. Still trenloe needs to get his butt moving on his area.
Hey!!! :p


Trenloe been making image enhancements. If some speak to me directly I can give you what he has done so far (shh don't tell him)
Yeah, got to get on with that - it will make our Friday evening Middle Earth games a little nicer from the player's point of view. I kinda floundered when I just couldn't work out how to get zooming to work for players - that is my biggest complaint re images in RMC at the moment, not being able to zoom in and out as a player!

Ardem
March 15th, 2012, 06:43
Trenloe I am suprised you not given it to Lanc directly, to use. It works standalone and with ExtendRMC so should be no issue.

Even at a minimum it does make GM a little easier, not having to share images all the time.

Trenloe
March 15th, 2012, 07:06
Trenloe I am suprised you not given it to Lanc directly, to use. It works standalone and with ExtendRMC so should be no issue.

Even at a minimum it does make GM a little easier, not having to share images all the time.
Yeah, I'll have to try to dig it out - it might be on my PC at home...

Ardem
March 15th, 2012, 07:16
check your pm <smile> make dropbox your friend <evil grin>

Sorry for hijacking Dr Venture, just wondering is there a Ms Venture, cause I met her a lot. hehehe

dr_venture
March 15th, 2012, 21:29
Hmmm... if misadventure is a bad adventure, then a "misventure" would be... "bad speculatory investment"? She's off to WonderCon this weekend, for what that's worth.

As to RMSS vs. RMFRP, I admit to ignorance there. Back in the day, I ran a Middle Earth campaign using what I assume is the classic RM rules... which is what I thought RMC was, basically. I remember that later they came out with... was it MERP (Middle Earth Role Playing)? Then some kind of RM lite... I don't remember much about that, other than the maneuver tables were greatly simplified... I think. Can you point me at any clarification on the acronyms?

Finally, I can report that, at least as far as basic combat and table resolution, it appears that the crash has indeed gone away, to be replaced by the occasional graphic glitch. I'm assuming that it is associated with RM, but I really don't know - got an old west game tomorrow using the C&C ruleset, so we'll see if it pops up there as well.

Dakadin
March 16th, 2012, 03:11
That's great news that the crash has gone away.

This link has a brief history/discussion of versions of Rolemaster: https://www.icewebring.com/what-is-rolemaster/

It doesn't mention RMC specifically in the article. RM2 = RMC and RMSS = RMFRP. They are just rebranded.

ICE has a brief comparison on their website of RMC vs. RMFRP. It can be found here: https://www.ironcrown.com/?page_id=711

It doesn't give much detail though.

Ardem
March 16th, 2012, 09:55
Hmmm... if misadventure is a bad adventure, then a "misventure" would be... "bad speculatory investment"?

Yeah sorry bad joke. But you hit the nail on the head though.

dr_venture
March 19th, 2012, 02:48
Apparently I spoke too soon. Opened up an older campaign and pitted 4 characters against 4 orcs - FG froze solid before I could get through the one combat. Oh well...

Trenloe
March 19th, 2012, 04:15
Apparently I spoke too soon. Opened up an older campaign and pitted 4 characters against 4 orcs - FG froze solid before I could get through the one combat. Oh well...
:( Hhhmmmm, I wonder if the issue is with older campaigns.

Perhaps create a new one and try another combat?

lachancery
March 19th, 2012, 06:06
I've run dozens of combats, some with 15+ entries in the combat tracker, without a solid FG freeze... :( Were you doing something specific when it crashed?

Ardem
March 19th, 2012, 08:49
Could it be the old campaign I have done a dozen fights with up to 10 units in the combat window and no freezes? If I was you, I would make a new campaign and characters as a test bed and test it out.

LOL just read the email and not additional comments LOL we all have said the same thing.

dr_venture
March 19th, 2012, 10:20
Yeah, I was wondering about the old campaign file.

The main differences between the campaign files that worked and didn't work, as far as I'm aware without looking under the hood, is that the campaign that worked was a new campaign file with no characters. The campaign that crashed used was older and used 4 characters and 4 orcs. At some point I'll create a few characters in the new campaign and give that a try. I'm pretty invested in running 2 C&C campaigns right now, so it's not at the top of my list. I did get a PM from somebody who wanted the old campaign file & chat log, which I'll send along.

As to what I was doing, I believe I had just rolled an attack on one of the combatants. I clicked over to the 'results' window (don't know what that's really called) and double-clicked on the attack in the column on the left. The result showed an A crit had been achieved. I right-clicked on the attack result to bring up the radial with teh "A" for resolving the crit, but the radial never displayed - FG was frozen. I left it for a few minutes but it never came back, so I forced FG to close.

The new computer has 8gb of RAM, Win 7 Home Premium.

Dakadin
March 19th, 2012, 15:38
Just out of curiosity, were there any clients connected when the crash occurred or where you just doing a run through?

lachancery
March 19th, 2012, 15:55
I did get a PM from somebody who wanted the old campaign file & chat log, which I'll send along.
I'd like to test it as well, if you wouldn't mind sending me the campaign files.


As to what I was doing, I believe I had just rolled an attack on one of the combatants. I clicked over to the 'results' window (don't know what that's really called) and double-clicked on the attack in the column on the left. The result showed an A crit had been achieved. I right-clicked on the attack result to bring up the radial with teh "A" for resolving the crit, but the radial never displayed - FG was frozen. I left it for a few minutes but it never came back, so I forced FG to close.
Hmm, pretty standard stuff. Out of habit, I right-click on the attack in the resolver, rather than double-clicking, but I doubt that changes anything. Were you running any extension when running this test? I was going to ask the same question as Dakadin: the attacks were all made by the GM with no one connected? Did you have the tokens on a battle map at all?


The new computer has 8gb of RAM, Win 7 Home Premium.
That's more RAM than I have - I used a laptop with 4GB of RAM to run my games.

dr_venture
March 19th, 2012, 18:33
I'd like to test it as well, if you wouldn't mind sending me the campaign files.

Sure - PM me and email account... or I suppose I could just upload it as a zip and send you guys the link...


Hmm, pretty standard stuff. Out of habit, I right-click on the attack in the resolver, rather than double-clicking, but I doubt that changes anything. Were you running any extension when running this test? I was going to ask the same question as Dakadin: the attacks were all made by the GM with no one connected? Did you have the tokens on a battle map at all?

Yeah, everything I was doing was totally by-the-numbers combat... almost no magic (did 1 fire bolt attack, which is basically just a weapon attack). I did have tokens laid out on a battlemap and was doing movement and such. I was doing damage by dragging the table result to the CT, and doing crit results by creating a new Effect in the combatant in the CT, then dragging the crit result onto that.

Say, side question: what's the little check box for on each combatant's token in the CT?

lachancery
March 19th, 2012, 18:49
Yeah, everything I was doing was totally by-the-numbers combat... almost no magic (did 1 fire bolt attack, which is basically just a weapon attack). I did have tokens laid out on a battlemap and was doing movement and such. I was doing damage by dragging the table result to the CT, and doing crit results by creating a new Effect in the combatant in the CT, then dragging the crit result onto that.

Say, side question: what's the little check box for on each combatant's token in the CT?
Btw, you can drag a critical result directly on the combat tracker without creating an effect manually (I drop it on the hits, at the same place as for damage, but I haven't tested if the location is sensitive).

That check mark indicates if that player has acted this round. It is automatically toggled as you go down the list of combatants. Duration effects, such as stun, are applied immediately if the target has not acted this round, or next round otherwise.

There is currently a bug in the ruleset where the duration is reduced at the end of each round, regardless of whether that combatant had acted or not. I believe Dakadin is looking into it for Extend RMC.

Dakadin
March 19th, 2012, 18:49
Sure - PM me and email account... or I suppose I could just upload it as a zip and send you guys the link...

If you want you can just email it to me and I will forward it to Lachancery.


There is currently a bug in the ruleset where the duration is reduced at the end of each round, regardless of whether that combatant had acted or not. I believe Dakadin is looking into it for Extend RMC.


Yes that is on my priority list at this point. I am hoping to have it done for the next release.

Trenloe
March 19th, 2012, 19:47
The new computer has 8gb of RAM, Win 7 Home Premium.
FG is a 32 bit app, so it is limited by Windows to using only 2GB of memory (even if you have 64bit windows with lots of RAM).

I had issues with the skill grouping error slowly chewing up RAM and then FG would just exit when the memory usage got close to 2GB. Perhaps keep an eye on the "Commit Size" column in Task Manager (you will need to add it under the view menu) for the FantasyGrounds.exe process and see if the problems you have appear around 1.7+ GB of memory use.

Also, if you're not running one of the extensions that fixes the grouping issue, make sure your skills on the characters aren't grouped.

Dakadin
March 20th, 2012, 01:35
FG is a 32 bit app, so it is limited by Windows to using only 2GB of memory (even if you have 64bit windows with lots of RAM).

I had issues with the skill grouping error slowly chewing up RAM and then FG would just exit when the memory usage got close to 2GB. Perhaps keep an eye on the "Commit Size" column in Task Manager (you will need to add it under the view menu) for the FantasyGrounds.exe process and see if the problems you have appear around 1.7+ GB of memory use.

Also, if you're not running one of the extensions that fixes the grouping issue, make sure your skills on the characters aren't grouped.

Thanks for posting this Trenloe! There is some great information in there. Eventually I would like to see if it is possible for me to reduce the memory footprint of the RMC ruleset. I don't know if it can be done but it can't hurt to look into it. It will just be a tedious process. :(

Griogre
March 20th, 2012, 03:16
I believe the total memory available for a single program is OS dependent. On Vista or XP you can only have 2 Gigs, but on Win7 you can have 4 Gigs.

Trenloe
March 20th, 2012, 04:54
I believe the total memory available for a single program is OS dependent. On Vista or XP you can only have 2 Gigs, but on Win7 you can have 4 Gigs.
It depends on the IMAGE_FILE_LARGE_ADDRESS_AWARE application flag in each application. The default is that this flag is cleared, which means that on both 32-bit and 64-bit Windows 7 the 32-bit application is limited to 2GB. If this flag is set, 32-bit Windows 7 allows 3GB memory and 64-bit Windows 7 allows 4GB memory.

https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/aa366778%28v=vs.85%29.aspx#physical_memory_limits_ windows_7

So, basically the default for 32-bit apps is 2GB unless the app is changed to set the IMAGE_FILE_LARGE_ADDRESS_AWARE.

There is an app available here (https://maketecheasier.com/increase-memory-limit-for-32-bit-applications-in-windows-64-bit-os/2011/08/13) that claims to set this flag - I haven't used it, and don't make any claims for it. Backup any .exe before you use this - but, it may give us more memory to use for FG! :)

Griogre
March 20th, 2012, 07:55
I thought JPG has said that FG has 2 and 4 so I would say the flag is set, but I can't claim to have tested it.

madman
March 20th, 2012, 13:51
I saw this and had to try it. I am running vista 64. I will post some feedback on it later. Patching was very easy, no problems.

Chris

Trenloe
March 20th, 2012, 16:29
I thought JPG has said that FG has 2 and 4 so I would say the flag is set, but I can't claim to have tested it.
Ah right, I thought I'd read somewhere that JPG had said it was limited to 2GB - I probably misread the context of the post.

If you're using a 32bit O/S and have 4GB RAM then it is possible to turn on 4GT (4 Gigabyte tuning) that will allow the app to use 3GB of memory (mostly in virtual memory by the looks of it, so it might slow down a bit).

Info on XP here: https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/bb613473%28v=vs.85%29.aspx

Moon Wizard
March 23rd, 2012, 20:35
I'm going to try the large address aware flag with the next v2.9 update to see how that goes. That should help all the Windows users.

Cheers,
JPG

JohnD
March 26th, 2012, 18:35
Am I to understand with this thread that the RM rules are a little wonky in FG2? Or is this something else?

Dakadin
March 26th, 2012, 18:55
It just uses more memory than most of the other rulesets mainly because of the size of the tables, at least from what I've seen.

Trenloe also noticed an issue with the ruleset if you group the skills where it gets stuck in a cycle of using up more and more memory. He has a fix for it but it can also be avoided by not grouping the skills.

dr_venture
March 26th, 2012, 22:11
I suppose 'Wonky' is as good of a description as any. It's probably memory-related. For me, I bought the RM ruleset and could never get through a single combat without a freeze or crash. That was as a GM on XP with 4gb RAM. I should note that most other folks were able to play, so dunno what's up there. Since then I have upgraded to a new PC this last few weeks with Win 7 & 8gb RAM - re-downloaded both FG as well as the RM ruleset, and installed the RMC expansion... and it seems to be running correctly, except on those old campaign files.

RM now has a very active group of developers, whom I owe a copy of my old campaign files (swamped with catching up with lost work right now, guys - sorry for the delay) so I'm anxious to see how the ruleset develops! I'm also very interested to see if FG 2.9's ability to use a larger memory footprint will resolve some of these issues.

JohnD
March 26th, 2012, 23:56
I'm interested in knowing how this works out - I'd love to do RM again.

dr_venture
March 27th, 2012, 00:26
Me too. Remember, tho: most folks haven't had the problems that I did... and even my problems seem to have cleared up, except for in the old campaign files.

RM in FG is an absolute *dream*! The combat part of the rules is well automated in the best ways... it takes a little bit to understand how combatants target each other and how you resolve the roll results, but once you have that down (it's pretty easy, just unique to the RM ruleset and wasn't immediately intuitive to me at least) attacks can be resolved quickly, crits looked up with great ease, and even the potentially detailed critical effects can just be dropped onto combatants. All the inventory items are drag/droppable... and I haven't even really investigated the changed made by the guys on this forum. If I hadn't just busted my rear to set up my campaigns to be based on C&C, I'd love to be using this!

Dakadin
March 27th, 2012, 01:43
I agree with dr_venture. It is amazing running Rolemaster in Fantasy Grounds. I can't even imagine doing it without FG at this point.

The RMC ruleset is the main reason I switched to using FG. I was planning on just jumping into using Rolemaster but decided to try some of the more up to date rulesets first so I could see what FG was capable of. Now I am working hard to get RMC to run as smoothly as some of the better supported rulesets.

But don't get me wrong. I am extreme impressed with the RMC ruleset as it is even without changes. The way it handles the Rolemaster combat tables is amazing. Basically an attack is rolled and you right click to Resolve the attack from the radial menu. It then opens up the table to the appropriate cell already selected. The modifiers for the attack are just to the left of the table. The results are draggable to the chat window to let the players know the results or to the combat tracker so you can apply the hits to the target. If a critical or fumble results, you can just right-click the result and choose Resolve from the radial menu to open the appropriate table below the current table. Then a d100 is rolled and you drag the result to the table and it takes you to the appropriate spot. Also as dr_venture mentioned these results are draggable just like the other results to both the chat window and the combat tracker. It is really a nice system.

Just to give you an example, a couple weeks ago I ran a combat that lasted for 24 rounds. It was 6 PC versus 6 monsters and it took about and hour to an hour and a half to finish. It would have easily taken me 4-6 hours to do it the old fashioned way.

Ardem
March 27th, 2012, 01:54
To put in perspective what Dr Venture has said, I have used RM for 5 complete session (disounting the 100 odd time I opened for gm develop and frp develop) you can read my AAR for complete analysis and only last week developed an issue, but after the host restarted it was fine.

But I do not think the issue with RM is too great, its just not perfect and we want perfect. It is like any application it has it issue, even word crashes on me occassionally actually words and excel has caused me more problems then FG has though.

lachancery
March 27th, 2012, 03:22
To put in perspective what Dr Venture has said, I have used RM for 5 complete session (disounting the 100 odd time I opened for gm develop and frp develop) you can read my AAR for complete analysis and only last week developed an issue, but after the host restarted it was fine.
Over here, I started my first RMC campaign back in October, running every 2 weeks on average. I started my second RMC game back in February. Over all, I've run about 20 sessions of RMC with FG. Given how many hours I have used the software, I got less software glitches than what I experience with Outlook (just an example).

That said, the RMC ruleset is a ... to learn as your first FG ruleset. I have been thinking of ways to make it easier for new players; just a matter of available time now to get it done.

Dakadin
March 27th, 2012, 19:17
Hi JohnD,

I sent you a private message. They can be easy to miss if you don't turn on the notifications so I wanted to make sure you saw it.