FG2 pricing and "But it costs too much!"

[Dr0W]

Hello everyone and sorry about the topic title, you might have taken me for a troll/whiner for a while.

My name is Vittor, I live in Brazil and I own a FG2 full license. Even though I haven't played it online because I fail to convince my friends to buy it, and this is my problem.

Whenever I ask any of them they say: "Yeah, what if it doesn't work out?", "What if I don't like playing online?", "What if you can't DM for us and we are forced to buy another full license?", "What if we used a 'free'(illegal) version?"

In my mind, the best thing I could do would be getting an Ultimate License myself but that... simply costs too much for me. I can't just afford $115 (as an Full>Ultimate upgrade) at once.

In Brazil piracy is very well "accepted", like it's an usual thing to do and if you pay for software people might even call you an idiot because you could get it for free. So people here have a good resistance in buying software wich makes things even harder for me.

When I bought my FG2 full license it was when I found a few people who owned the FG2 too, but not the entire group. They decided to use a cracked version of the software so everyone could play, but I didn't feel right with it and left the group. I bought it and never played it :(.

So I have a few suggestions that would make my life easier and might get the developer some extra bucks, I will understand if all you have to say is "Nope, we are good the way we are, that's not happening" but I'd like to see some discussion about it too:

- Monthly Fees
Holy crap, who would want to pay monthly fees when you can grab the unlimited version pretty cheap? Well, I would. If one could pay $5 for a month for example, my friends could go "Hey, it's just $5... Let's try it" and we could play some games. If they liked it, great, they might even buy the full game when the month ends. We could pay $5 from each player every now and then when we want to play online RPG. I'm pretty sure that $5 a month per player is better than nothing at all. You could work out with 1-month to 3-month deals. After that I guess it's cheaper to get the standard lite license, unless you make it possible to "rent" full or even ultimate licenses.

- Full > Ultimate temporary upgrade
It looks like the Monthly Fees option. You own the full license, you pay something like $15 a month and for a month you can host games as if you had a full license. The players would be able to play for free, they might like the product and buy it.

- Ultimate License in parts
I didn't really know how to call this one.
As I've mentioned, I'm not ready to afford $150 on an ultimate license (or even $115 as an upgrade from full). That's a lot of money, really.
So what could be done to make it easier for me to buy it?
Make me pay $50 a year for the Ultimate License, and if you are kind enough after three years passed I'd have paid the full $150 and we both are happy, it's much better than getting nothing from people who want to pay. You could make a deal of $40 a year for those who own the full license, for example.

That's all I have in mind apart from asking to lower the prices. That would be lovely too :p

And please notice that all I mentioned are only extra options people shouldn't complain when they are given extra options. I also don't know how the serial key and licenses are managed by the Smite Works, I saw that the full->ultimate upgrade happens manually wich sucks, that would be some extra work then to make any of these I mentioned to work out as intended.

[Valarian]

Okay, firstly piracy is not "acceptable" - if you want something, pay a fair price for it or don't. Sounds like you've got your head screwed on right when it comes to this, and well done on that of the peer culture around you is saying otherwise. Piracy = theft. If any of your friends are church-goers, get them to ask the priest what he thinks of it.

The pricing of the full version is around the same price as a single hardback rulebook or video game (PS3/XBox). The Lite license is around the price of s softbavk supplement. Not too much to ask. The ultimate version is really put there for those of us who run demos or want to bring new players on to a product we love.

I'm against a subscription model of pricing and I think most users of FG2 are of the same mind. Subscription services are also, by necessity, server bound. The license server needs to be up for you to play. The beauty of FG2 is the local client/server model of has. If the FG2 license servers are down, the alias won't work but you can still connect to the GM via the IP address. The resistance from the community on these things would mean subscriptions would be low on take up. So, you've got a lot of extra coding for not much gain.

[Dr0W]

Okay, firstly piracy is not "acceptable" - if you want something, pay a fair price for it or don't. Sounds like you've got your head screwed on right when it comes to this, and well done on that of the peer culture around you is saying otherwise. Piracy = theft. If any of your friends are church-goers, get them to ask the priest what he thinks of it.

It is, in my country. It might seem to be an absurd, but it is my reality not yours. You might say that poligamy is not "acceptable", it might be in your country not on another's. I'm talking about my reality into taking friends to pay for the software I want them too.


The pricing of the full version is around the same price as a single hardback rulebook or video game (PS3/XBox). The Lite license is around the price of s softbavk supplement. Not too much to ask. The ultimate version is really put there for those of us who run demos or want to bring new players on to a product we love.

I buy games at steam, most of my friends do too. Most of the games I pick up when it's pricing is on 50% or even 75% promotions. I only pick games at it's release date at 100% when I REALLY REALLY want that game, and my friends too. Right now they are not "REALLY REALLY" interested in acquiring FG2, but they might change their minds if there was some kind of promotion. $25 is a good money to invest into something you don't really know if you will enjoy or not. Also, PS3 and XBox games here are for rich people only. Why? A PS3/Xbox System costs around $600 and each game $120 (converted costs). 99% of the countries profit on games goes to piracy due to our high importing taxes. People ARE used to not paying to use something, a very few like myself care about paying for it.


I'm against a subscription model of pricing and I think most users of FG2 are of the same mind. Subscription services are also, by necessity, server bound. The license server needs to be up for you to play. The beauty of FG2 is the local client/server model of has. If the FG2 license servers are down, the alias won't work but you can still connect to the GM via the IP address. The resistance from the community on these things would mean subscriptions would be low on take up. So, you've got a lot of extra coding for not much gain.

Now that's a good point. But I wonder if you are against having the option of having a subscription model. People who bought FG2 would use it the same way they are using right now. But if there is really too much trouble in making a subscription server and all that sh#t and the developers don't get enough profit for their troubles, I would really understand.

But so far, I'm willing to pay $50 per year of use of an Ultimate License but I can't afford paying $150 all at once.

[Moon Wizard]

Dr0W,

Thanks for putting some thought into your post and your thoughts on pricing. We regularly talk about various options for pricing FG, but have decided not to change it for now.

As Valarian mentioned, we have brought up the subject of subscriptions before in order to lower the "up front" price, offer more services from our servers, and potentially make FG a more sustainable business. However, there is a strong bias against that pricing model in our community.

In the long run, we'd like to have the best of all worlds: our current licensing as well as an initially lower-cost (possibly subscription) licensing. Reducing piracy is actually a one of the primary reasons to implement a subscription model.

Regards,
JPG

[Dr0W]

Dr0W,

Thanks for putting some thought into your post and your thoughts on pricing. We regularly talk about various options for pricing FG, but have decided not to change it for now.

It is good to hear that it is even discussed.


As Valarian mentioned, we have brought up the subject of subscriptions before in order to lower the "up front" price, offer more services from our servers, and potentially make FG a more sustainable business. However, there is a strong bias against that pricing model in our community.

Lowering the "up front" price is really what I need.
And it is pretty understandable the bias against subscription models in the community. Most of them already own FG2 or intend to, so people here are already confortable with FG2 pricing model and feel no need for changes. But there might be lots of users out there that are frightened by the up front price, who might be willing to buy FG2 if they could at least try it for real.
As an example we can take D&D mmorpg. It was a subscription based mmo and then they wanted to implement the new "freemium" pricing model. Obviously the community hated, people complained, players said they were leaving the game for good. New players joined, liked the game and subscribed (myself included), the game literally rose from the ashes and the whole community gained from this change with new content updates (the company gets more money, they get more game content). That "might" happen to FG2, even if in a lower scale.


In the long run, we'd like to have the best of all worlds: our current licensing as well as an initially lower-cost (possibly subscription) licensing. Reducing piracy is actually a one of the primary reasons to implement a subscription model.

That's really what I came here to hear, that you guys really think about it. I've already suggested some ideas and you might have your own, I really hope that soon I will have an easier way to make my friends into this software. I'm aware that a company only exists for a reason and that's making money for it's owner, so I really wish that you find a way to make money with some initially lower-cost licensing so I can bring my friends to play.

Thanks for the replies!

[Oberoten]

Another thought... since the Demo is under update, why not make it a time limited demo with a confirmable e-mail used as a key? 30 days of Lite license functionality would be enough for most groups to decide that they want to play AND create goodwill. It'd ALSO give new players the option to get a demo on several different rulesets.

Yes, some people would try with several new E-mails but I imagine that if they want it that much they'd finally buy it. AND the collected E-mail might be used to send out the newletter as an opt-in.

As for a pricing model? Free brings people in, and THEN you apply the hard sale.


- Obe

[Dr0W]

Or people who own at least a full license could generate a fixed number of "trial invites" per month. Like you get one invite per month but you can stack up to 4 or 5 invites.

As I've stated, I own the full license and I'm willing to pay a little bit to let my friends play freely for a limited time, but I'm not willing to pay $150 to let them play freely forever. I want them to play it, like it and then buy it themselves.

[Sigurd]

Dr0W - I appreciate what you're saying but I think you are getting walked over by your players.

I think the original license pricing is the best. If your players won't fork out for a lite license then they don't want to play badly enough. You should tell them how much fun you have when you do play across the internet. If they have the money to buy some of the books and\or the time to read them, then they have the ability to get the lite license at least. The money doesn't vanish. It supports the program.

The Demo is a pretty fair idea about the product and allows you to see all of the technical concerns up front. Connection speed, image performance, and basic abilities are all very well illustrated - a lot more than many companies.

On the other hand.

I'd love to see a point system to earn an ultimate license. You illustrate one of the lost opportunities I see for Smite Works. You want to add more friends to the game and more customers but you can't afford the jump to ultimate, especially since you personally wouldn't see much difference. In my case I think my ultimate license would only help Smite Works as it represents a few players who would eventually buy a license. Everyone I play with now has the full license.

If I were to put on my Fictitious Majestic Leader of the Smite Works Universe (I have no business connections with the company and this is completely just my idea alone) I would embrace the month of DM's Day, March.

If it can be done, and I by no means certain it can be, I would allow demo licenses to connect as client licenses for the month of March (or for 4 weeks following DM's Day). This would tie FG to DM's Day (which I think is great for the hobby) and give yet another window for people to try the software.

Then you could tell them to experiment in March, or test with the demo, or buy a lite license. Smite Works has been tremendously flexible with upgrading from lite to full and as I said, I found the demo very convincing.


Sigurd


PS I like Oberoten's idea as well.

I don't think users should have even conditional licenses to dispense. Smite Works itself should always control the granting of licenses and, ideally, it should be completely separate software that is never released to be pirated.

[Dr0W]

Dr0W - I appreciate what you're saying but I think you are getting walked over by your players.
Hey thanks for you reply!


I think the original license pricing is the best. If your players won't fork out for a lite license then they don't want to play badly enough.
You should tell them how much fun you have when you do play across the internet.
That's one of the problems really. They don't really want to play badly enough, they say "Yeah, it might be fun, we can try it" and I'm pretty sure they'd love when we played.


If they have the money to buy some of the books and\or the time to read them, then they have the ability to get the lite license at least. The money doesn't vanish. It supports the program.
They DO have the money to buy some of the books, but they are much more inclined to spend their money buying another book or a game on steam or anything else but buying a software they don't even know if they will enjoy playing. Since games and RPG stuff here costs a LOT they'd rather save the money and buy something they really want. For example, it costs less for me to import that pretty Pathfinder RPG from USA than picking a D&D book here. Just for comparison, I wanted to buy "Mage: The Awakening", went to my favorite store and it costs $60 here not including shipment(converted costs), while I can pick it up for $32.99 at amazon.com shipment included.



I'd love to see a point system to earn an ultimate license. You illustrate one of the lost opportunities I see for Smite Works. You want to add more friends to the game and more customers but you can't afford the jump to ultimate, especially since you personally wouldn't see much difference. In my case I think my ultimate license would only help Smite Works as it represents a few players who would eventually buy a license. Everyone I play with now has the full license.
Yea, me too. If we could earn or even pay for a month of Ultimate License it might even help SmiteWorks.
For example: I ask my friends to try FG2, pay for a month of Ultimate access, play 3 or 4 game sessions with my friends. The month ends and I say "Sorry guys, the Ultimate License expired and I'm broke, we wont be able to continue that campaign until you buy FG2 yourselves."

"Waaaat? How are we gonna kill that bastard troll that stole my family's katana?"

And there you go, they might even buy the Lite versions OR hand me some bucks so I can pay for another month of Ultimate License. And I'm pretty sure that if they prefer to keep paying $15 a month (or another price) in 5 or 6 month's SmiteWorks would have earned even more than if they have bought a Lite License at first. It just might work, I'd be happy, SmiteWorks would be happy, we'd get more updates with more money incentives.:p

[Sigurd]

Have you tried the demo with them? It convinced me.


Don't lose sight of this as a problem with your friends. "They won't buy your service, will you let me give it away?" is generally not a question that will get you very far. FG is without a doubt the best gaming money I've ever spent.

I have way too many books, dice, etc. etc... and might go months without using a particular piece. These days, I use FG every time I game. For me, it's a lot cheaper than a full tank of gas and compared to the costs and time for travelling even to my nearest friend, the purchase price, of any license, is minuscule.

Also, and this is a real draw around here, there are no monthly fees and you can run the software without Smite Works. Very, very quickly that make this program the best deal in town.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that your problem is really with your players. My suggestion is don't worry about it but make sure you join a few games online.

1. You'll meet new friends from all over the world.
1. You'll be able to give your current friends reports of how you use the program.
2. You'll work out your preferences for whatever game you play.
3. You wont have to leave your home and you will have no travel time.

The truth is that if you are their only DM now, your players are one step away from not playing. They'd have more options, and more fun, if they connected with other DMs or learned to DM themselves. It's a supreme slap in the face to your efforts if it isn't worth a couple of bucks to support you, the way you want to DM. Tell them you're not sure you should prepare for any adventure if they don't care enough to try new things. Play online and tell them you'll happily play face to face so long as someone else DMs.

Of course you should do what you feel comfortable with. Just don't devalue your role and not listen to your own enthusiasm. Enjoy your copy of FG and find a table online you want to play at. They'll come along eventually or the wont.

That's their decision.

[damned]

the reality is very different for people in some countries. it is hard for us to see sometimes but thats the way it is.
some interesting options have been put forward so see if anything comes out of it but even if it did it would not be an overnight change.

[Griogre]

One sad point is simply not everyone you play with in a face to face game, will play online with you. Its been my experience you just can't get the old group back together online. Sure some will play, but a good many others won't for whatever reason.

The good news is you will meet new friends and players online. I've been playing in a Sunday morning game for several years now with people around the world and I didn't know a single one of them at the start. Like Sigurd said I suggest you just either start running a game of your own or join one. It may take a while to find a group that fits your style but there are alot of people out there that just want to play.

[Hye Roler]

Or people who own at least a full license could generate a fixed number of "trial invites" per month. Like you get one invite per month but you can stack up to 4 or 5 invites.

As I've stated, I own the full license and I'm willing to pay a little bit to let my friends play freely for a limited time, but I'm not willing to pay $150 to let them play freely forever. I want them to play it, like it and then buy it themselves.

+1 to this. I am in the same boat. There are occasions when not everyone in my play group can meet and it would be nice in those instances that I could gather the few together online to give them an abbreviated play experience so that they aren't too far behind the story for the next session.

[Sigurd]

I noticed that the new version will make it easier to host the demo.

This is a huge step forward.

[Dr0W]

Hey guys, thanks for all your replies.

I haven't really tried the Demo yet, I dunno if they will like it but I might give it a try.

I also really need to find myself an online group to play, but since I'm not a native english speaker I don't really know if I can do well roleplaying in english, never really tried xD

Also, for some reason I thought that you could only get discount when buying a full license too and since I had already mine they wouldn't want to buy another full license. But I've just noticed that you can get a nice discount buying a pack of lite licenses, how dumb I am.

[Leonal]

You only get a discount when buying multiple licenses at one time, with the discount increasing the more licenses you add (except for Ultimate I believe, though not sure).

[Nylanfs]

What about offering Gift Certificates in the store? It in $5USD or $10USD increments so you could buy one whev ever you get the cash on had, OR so you could buy your friends a Gift Certificate and shame them into buying. :)

[Oberoten]

What about offering Gift Certificates in the store? It in $5USD or $10USD increments so you could buy one whev ever you get the cash on had, OR so you could buy your friends a Gift Certificate and shame them into buying. :)

I *LIKE* this idea...

- Obe

[Griogre]

This is actually doable now with RPGNow's Gift Certificates. Of course the problem is would they be spent on other goodies. ;)

[Nibelung]

I also really need to find myself an online group to play, but since I'm not a native english speaker I don't really know if I can do well roleplaying in english, never really tried xD

No idea if advertising can be done here, but many people at www.spellrpg.net have FG2 and new campaigns fill up fast. Send me a PM and I can put you in touch with usual DMs there.

O fórum é brasileiro, não tem nem que se preocupar com fuso horário.

[ddavison]

Nibelung, it is okay to advertise for other sites related to FG and gaming in general as long as it relates back to FG in some way. We're glad to support the gaming community.

[Emrak]

What about an ads-based model? For instance, you do not need to buy a license but you get ads on load, and at the top or bottom or sides of the screens?

Just throwing that out there...

[Doswelk]

What about an ads-based model? For instance, you do not need to buy a license but you get ads on load, and at the top or bottom or sides of the screens?

Just throwing that out there...
NO!!!!

The screen area can be too small already once you are deep in a game, the last thing FGII needs would be Ads.

The licensing works fine for my friends, and I suspect most other people.

The ones that did not want to GM bought Lite licenses, the ones that do bought full and I have an Ultimate License so I can run open games that ANYONE can play.

This was before there were group discount and lite-full upgrades (so I actually have 1xlite, 1xfull and 1xUltimate), I cannot see how the software could be more available to people.

[Emrak]

@Doswelk - Then you would not download an ads-based copy of FG. No worries. But I do think it's something the devs need to consider for folks who may never pay money for a VTT. If someone will not buy it, at least they (the devs) can insure they're getting the users using their product and not someone else's. Also, the devs would have a new income stream in the form of ads-based revenue.

If it works elsewhere (heck, if it works for the KINDLE which you read BOOKS on...which boggles my mind btw, I can't imagine a product more unsuited for ads than a Kindle...yet the ads-based variant is currently outselling the non-ads based variant...and it's only like 25 bucks cheaper!) it would work here.

[DM_BK]

Then they have to have someone selling ads and in a niche market at that. Tough sale. The few people that work on this product aren't likely to have the time or the experience to pull that off.

I don't even believe that offering a low cost monthly rental model will really do all that much good (not net 0 but not likely enough to make it worth the effort). Most folks that are going to steal are going to no matter what.

The only way to make sure people have to buy your product is to force critical portions of the data to have to be pulled from a central server....much like an MMO serves a game to subscribers. Clearly that's not going to make this a better product and likely cause legitimate customers away.

Under current model the best thing that the company can do is to continue to frequently update the product.... that converts more customers then anything else.

I understand where your coming from Emrak and I think your intent is noble... Piracy is just a fact of the software business. Hopefully enough honest people use it to keep you in business...that's about all you can do.

[drahkar]

Then they have to have someone selling ads and in a niche market at that. Tough sale. The few people that work on this product aren't likely to have the time or the experience to pull that off.

I don't even believe that offering a low cost monthly rental model will really do all that much good (not net 0 but not likely enough to make it worth the effort). Most folks that are going to steal are going to no matter what.

The only way to make sure people have to buy your product is to force critical portions of the data to have to be pulled from a central server....much like an MMO serves a game to subscribers. Clearly that's not going to make this a better product and likely cause legitimate customers away.

Under current model the best thing that the company can do is to continue to frequently update the product.... that converts more customers then anything else.

I understand where your coming from Emrak and I think your intent is noble... Piracy is just a fact of the software business. Hopefully enough honest people use it to keep you in business...that's about all you can do.

This hit the nail on the head. Thieves are going to steal no matter what you do to the pricing model. A subscription based system isn't going to do anything but require the complete rebuild of the application into a centralized server setup (Something that the majority of the existing community is vehemently against) and steal time from improving the software to allow for better functionality, more features and more content.

As to ads. Well, I'm not able to argue that it can't work, but DM_BKs comment about a niche market is 100% correct. Getting advertisers to sign on, especially ones that would be willing to pay decent advertising fees will be extremely difficult. The only real hope of doing so is to just ask anyone to advertise, and frankly, that will just alienate people. Its one thing if the ads are on topic, but just random ads don't improve the ROI of a advertising campaign. Thats why things like Google Ads tailors its content for what the site is displaying. Random ads doesn't do anything but drive off possible customers.

[Sigurd]

FG2 with its current pricing is probably the best gaming deal on the net. If you can afford internet legally you can afford FG. They don't ask much and the money goes to active development and good people who need to feed their families and have a life too. This is less than any two printed RPG Suppliments and it lets you play a number of different games.

There are open source free alternatives but I didn't enjoy them. This is a one time cost and no necessity to rely on a smite works server. Technically this is probably the most amazing feature of this program.

I mean no disrespect to people for who can't afford to give away the software to their cheap friends. I understand that money is valued differently to different people but the truth is for Smite Works it is valued precisely one way when they receive it.

This thread gets longer and gives the mistaken impression that this is a huge problem. It isn't. Polite people are trying to accommodate everyone and we really welcome players when the log on legally.

There are real limits to what a small company can do efficiently and thus cheaply. I can't believe someone is suggesting a whole add based model from a small company to save $24-40 for themselves. I'm sure they are trying to be helpful but think of the work and the regular crap you have to do to generate a regular revenue stream.

FG should concentrate on FG and they are doing a GREAT job.

To me it has been the best deal on the net. If you or your friends won't buy it they probably won't stick around anyway because they're not that interested. That's OK. Pay your small dues and have fun. Be polite and have a little patience and its a great program at twice the price.

Sigurd

[DM_BK]

There are open source free alternatives but I didn't enjoy them. This is a one time cost and no necessity to rely on a smite works server. Technically this is probably the most amazing feature of this program.


That's a great point right there. If you can't afford it then use the free open sourced stuff!

Course you get what you pay for but for free...it does work.

[Kioma]

That's a great point right there. If you can't afford it then use the free open sourced stuff!

Course you get what you pay for but for free...it does work.

I actually came to FG2 after trying to organise games with OpenRPG and its development fork, Traipse. All respect to the developers of those tools but the simple fact (in my mind, at least) is that Fantasy Grounds II is better.

I think the OP's point about an initially alarming price tag, particularly for people who are simply used to pursuing open source alternatives, is valid. However I think the argument that this is an entire gaming environment for the price of a core rule book (or less, if you get the Lite version) is both equally valid and easy to overlook.

Consider that this is a framework tool, an environment, rather than a game. The enjoyment that your friends experience from the games you play is going to be defined by two main things.

Firstly, as has been pointed out, some people just don't like playing online. A virtual tabletop will never be a tabletop, just as a Kindle will never be a real book. Some people will embrace that; some will hate it. Price, in my mind, has nothing to do with whether a person will love or hate playing online... but committing to a paid license is, just like committing to buying a core rule book, going to give a person much more incentive to give FG2 a fair go and not write it off as being 'just not the same'.

Secondly, the quality of the game itself is going to be a huge factor. Do your friends really love the game you run for them? Chances are they'll love it played through FG2 (as long as they can embrace point one, above). Just because it's a VTT doesn't suddenly mean the GM is going to GM differently.

Out of curiosity four Lite licenses will only cost each person $18.57 each. No matter which way you look at it that's cheap. A lot of players will drop that much just on a good set of polyhedral dice.

I know I'm late to the party on this but for the record:

I would... dislike ads but I think you'd find them easier to fill than you think. I think the bigger question would be whether you could fill them with advertising you'd actually want to associate with FG2.

While I can see the business viability of a subscription model I'd stop using FG2 immediately if it came to that. I currently have an unexpected windfall of money; I don't have an ongoing budget that can support a FG2 subscription. My position might be uncommon amongst FG2 users but there it is.

I can, however, see a lot of appeal to a limited subscription model. For example, implementing a sort of 'pay as you go' model that would let your users slowly build up their licenses. I'll give an example.

Jim the Roleplayer starts a $5/month subscription to FG2. To start with he can use FG2 as a Very Lite version - somewhere between the Unregistered and Lite (basically, a Lite version with one or two additional restrictions).

After five months Jim has paid a total of $25 and his copy of FG2 automatically unlocks to normal Lite functionality. He can stop paying at this point and retain his Lite copy, or he can keep paying for additional perks.

After another three months ($15) he's paid a total of $40; his copy unlocks Full functionality. He can now run games as well as play them, and stopping his subscription now will retain his copy's Full status.

If he keeps paying, however, the copy keeps unlocking. Perhaps for every two months ($10) Jim can host one Unregistered player until he finally reaches a grand total of 30 months ($150). Then he has full Ultimate functionality! The subscription at that point might stop automatically, or might grant a discount on store products (functionally becoming a Premium Member dealio) as well as bragging rights.

Retaining the current pricing model and wrapping a limited subscription model around it, as above, might bring even more players to the virtual tabletop, and would allow people to say 'stuff it' and pay outright if they really want to.

Just a thought.

[Dr0W]

Kioma got it right. This topic is old and I wouldn't even remember it if I didn't receive a mail about it when he answered.

So, after all this time I didn't have any success on bringing my friends to FG2. Really, I gave up on it. So far I paid $39.95 for my Full license that I haven't used for playing online to this date, I only played with it a bit but didn't host a single game online.

I'd pay for an Ultimate License if I could but that's too much money for me.

The plan model Kioma suggested is pretty much what I wanted AND FG2 would make much more money by implementing this. It's better to sell many copies for a lower price than selling just a few for a higher price. There are many games that are released for $50, $60. You wait a few months and you can easily grab them for $5, $10 or $15. It's not about how much a software is worth, but about selling more and for more people.

I'm not complaining about the current price, I was just suggesting new pricing options.
Sure if anyone can pay for their internet they can pay for FG2. If they can pay for their computer they can pay for FG2.

But that doesn't mean that they have $20 to pay on something that they might not enjoy. One told me "What if we stop playing? It will be $20 wasted". With $20 they could buy a one or two games at Steam and play whenever they want. I've just bought Shogun 2: Total War for $6! With $10 in my town you can go partying all night.

It's not about the price being fair or not, it's about people having other priorities than buying FG2. If it costed less or had a better pricing plan thay would give it a try.

Earning $5 a month from each player of a standard group would be $20/month, wich is much better than earning nothing.

[unerwünscht]

Holy Thread Necromancy Batman!

So where as I agree that FGII would manage to sell to a much larger audience if the price were lowered, I disagree that they would make more money on FGII sales this way. I think it would come out to about the same in the end. However the increased income would be seen in the addons being sold.... this assumes that people didnt then start complaining with 'The program only cost $10 why does it cost $5 for this addon' or just pirate the addons right out (and then get me angry cause they are stealing from me, and I would have to go all incredible Hulk on them)

The next issue then comes in the fact that FGII is getting a much higher use rate, however still making the same amount of money, this causes the home server to suffer, and that in the end will also slowdown production, as they have to focus more and more on the servers and packets and less on features. Pretty soon, everything starts to fall apart, the program stops working, then thousands of bored players turn into zombies from the exhaustive boredom and then you have an apocalyptic end to the world.

In short, lower the price of FGII sure we get more players for awhile, but it brings on the end of the world.

Also, if anyone isn't sure if they'll like the game, there are people who do have Ultimate licenses that are more than happy to showcase the program with demo games and the like, so that's not really any good reason to bring down the price.

[Kioma]

Holy Thread Necromancy Batman!

Yeah, my fault, sorry. >.> Seemed an interesting topic so I couldn't resist.


So where as I agree that FGII would manage to sell to a much larger audience if the price were lowered, I disagree that they would make more money on FGII sales this way. I think it would come out to about the same in the end.

<snip>

For my own part I'm not actually advocating lower prices, more a flexible way of paying the same amount for the same product. I also don't really know if there's any way of saying whether a lower price would result in the same cash inflow or whether it would in fact be higher or lower.

When all's said and done I think the pricing is fair. Yes, people might express dissatisfaction with it but let's face it, some people always, always will. I think Dr0w hits upon a vital point when he mentions that some people simply have different priorities.

Well, that's their karma, really. They'll see this as being worth it or they won't. Not much anyone can do about that.

The main appeal that I see in the limited subscription model I outlined is that it allows someone with lower cash resources to eventually pay the same amount as everyone else. True, said person could theoretically just put $5 away every month, but if a more flexible system could compliment (not replace) the existing one then surely that's all to the better.

[damned]

some scenarios: a widget costs $12 to make and you sell it for $15. awesome news you sell heaps of them and you run around like a headless chook making and selling all these widgets. after 1000 widgets you have made $3000 and you are so tired you want to throw it all away...
another company sells a similar on a hire-purchase plan and they sell their $12 widget for $1/month. awesome - after 3 years we will have collected $36 for each $12 widget! they sell heaps and heaps of them - 1500 of them! then they realise that they are paying a transaction fee and having to do all this accounting work etc and they find this hidden cost of $0.50c per transaction. and it turns out that some people actually stopped paying - even before they paid $12!
another company sells a similar widget that costs them $12 to make and they sell it for $30. they are moderately successful and sell 200! they are pretty stoked and highly motivated as a result of making $3600 that they decide to start work on v2.

anyway - they arent selling widgets but my point is lots of ways that look like they might pay the same but they could have totally different real outcomes.

[Dracones]

I think FG2 is priced very reasonably and I also really appreciate that the company allows you to upgrade licenses. But as a full license holder the lite license price can be a bit of a limiting factor to get local or online friends into your games.

The issue isn't that those people won't see FG2 as a value after playing a game or two. Online roleplaying is addictive and FG2 is a quality product. It's that it's a complex product and you really can't appreciate what it can do for online rpgs until you try it.

I really think if there was some sort of "trial" or limited functionality it'd lead to more sales in the long run. One recommendation outside of a 30 day trial license(which is a good idea too) might be to allow 1-2 demo clients to connect to a full licensed copy.

For example say I'm running a game and want 4-6 players. The game would allow for 1-2 demo clients to connect to my game in addition to the other 4+ lite on up clients. Basically you'd have these classes of FG2 user:

Demo user: Can only fill up those 2 limited demo slots on posted games.
Lite user: Can freely join any online game.
Full user: Can host/GM online games.
Ultimate user: Has unlimited demo slots.

Demo users would then become a part of the FG2 community and would likely want to upgrade after playing a game or two.

For people like Kioma, they'd only have to convince 2 of their friends to buy a lite license if they're running a 4-5 person session(GM + 4 players). That's a lot easier to do. Now, in this case if those players never went beyond that little group, it'd be lost sales.

But I'd think that most players that get into the tool are going to be looking at online games. They're going to get addicted to the toolset. Once that happens you're going to want to upgrade at some point just to be able to fill the premium group slots.

Note that this also may increase the value of the ultimate license. If there's more demo users in FG land looking for those freemium slots in games, owning an ultimate license means you have a bigger pool to pull players from.

[Trenloe]

I think FG2 is priced very reasonably and I also really appreciate that the company all

I really think if there was some sort of "trial" or limited functionality it'd lead to more sales in the long run. One recommendation outside of a 30 day trial license(which is a good idea too) might be to allow 1-2 demo clients to connect to a full licensed copy.
JPG is adding the ability to allow 1 demo user to connect to the full licence in V2.9 - see second bullet in post #2 in this thread. (https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?t=16158) However, what is not clear is whether this is run the demo for 1 person only, or allow a demo user to join in a game with other full/lite users.

[wbcreighton]

deleted .....

[bislab]

In my opinion, the cost of the unlimited licence is quite fair IF it will work for every member of my gaming group...at the same time. That last bit is what has kept me from upgrading from the full to the unlimited and from my players even buying lite licences. Unless I am missing something, there is no way to demo the software with your full group connected at once. Sure, the demo allows two people to test their connection, but that is no indicator as to how the software will perform when 5-6 people are connected at once. Just my 2 cents.

[Doswelk]

If it helps here is a game I ran once:

https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=1616&d=1284233170

FGII coped without problem, the only "problem" was keeping people entertained waiting for 9 other people to have their go....

[unerwünscht]

bislab: The ultimate license will allow you to host a game for your entire group. None of the players need a license anymore. I would say it lets you host to an unlimited number of players, however this isn't quite true... I have found the limit of the software appears to be around 16 players, after that things start to fall apart.

[Kioma]

If it helps here is a game I ran once:

https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=1616&d=1284233170

FGII coped without problem, the only "problem" was keeping people entertained waiting for 9 other people to have their go....

Oh, to have a screen that wide...

[GunnarGreybeard]

Yeah, I don't know if there is an upper limit but I've run a game with 7 players and 6 of them using the demo/unregistered version. Also, of those 7, 2 of those were connecting via dial-up. Those 2 had a little lag here and there but never dropped their connections.

[Doswelk]

Oh, to have a screen that wide...

It was two monitors :o

[Kioma]

It was two monitors :o

Oh, to have two monitors...

;)

Seriously, though, looks like a good game. At least, from a complete outsider's perspective it does (given that I know nothing about the Savage Worlds system at all).

[bislab]

bislab: The ultimate license will allow you to host a game for your entire group. None of the players need a license anymore. I would say it lets you host to an unlimited number of players, however this isn't quite true... I have found the limit of the software appears to be around 16 players, after that things start to fall apart.

I get that, but you have to purchase it FIRST to be able to test how it handles a group of people. SO if it doesn't handle it well, you're just out the money.

[wbcreighton]

I get that, but you have to purchase it FIRST to be able to test how it handles a group of people. SO if it doesn't handle it well, you're just out the money.
I'm guessing that there are security issues with having a demo that any number of people can connect to.

[Doswelk]

I get that, but you have to purchase it FIRST to be able to test how it handles a group of people. SO if it doesn't handle it well, you're just out the money.

How many players are you planning on?
How fast is your broadband?

I ran that game of 10 people on a less than 1 MB upload speed.

The slowest part of FGII is the players downloading the cache files (ruleset/graphics/tokens) and that happens the first time a player connects to that campaign. And even that can be eliminated if you create a cache and send to your players before hand.

I understand your concern but if performance were an issue this forum would not be so full of people happy to use FGII and help and encourage others :D

[Moon Wizard]

The demo option for the Full license in v2.9 switches to a demo mode and allows one connection. When a valid license logs in, the full version switches back to live mode and boots the demo user. We wanted to allow Full versions to demo, without essentially giving away a "free" license.

Another option that we are kicking around is to raise the price of the Full version slightly ($5-10) and to always allow the Full version to support one unregistered license.

Cheers,
JPG

[Griogre]

Another option that we are kicking around is to raise the price of the Full version slightly ($5-10) and to always allow the Full version to support one unregistered license.

I personally don't like this option because you are costing the people who are willing to pay for a license more at the expense of people who are not. I believe in a customer vs. non customer benefit analysis you should favor your customers - at least in the current license model you have.

[Kioma]

I get that, but you have to purchase it FIRST to be able to test how it handles a group of people. SO if it doesn't handle it well, you're just out the money.

That's true of most things, though. That's true of purchasing a hard copy of an RPG core book of a game you've never played, or a PDF digital purchase. There's a certain level of risk in buying anything.

[bislab]

How many players are you planning on?
How fast is your broadband?

I ran that game of 10 people on a less than 1 MB upload speed.

The slowest part of FGII is the players downloading the cache files (ruleset/graphics/tokens) and that happens the first time a player connects to that campaign. And even that can be eliminated if you create a cache and send to your players before hand.

I understand your concern but if performance were an issue this forum would not be so full of people happy to use FGII and help and encourage others :D

That is good to know, however my players all use skype while gaming which also eats up bandwidth. If we can't do both, it is of no use to us. Don't get me wrong, I LIKE FG2 and have bought a full license, but convincing my players is fruitless unless I can prove that all persons connected can sustain both skype and the virtual environment. My own bandwidth is not the sole factor in how well this will work.
On the upside, if I did purchase the unlimited license, it looks like I'd have no trouble getting new players for my games ;)

[madman]

I used Skype and fantasy grounds for years. That being said I switched to Teamspeak 3 because of bandwidth issues. Skype is great for two people talking, but is bad with 6-7 people rustling chip bags and downing sodas. Teamspeak 3 uses like 1/20th of what skype uses.

Chris

[Doswelk]

That is good to know, however my players all use skype while gaming which also eats up bandwidth. If we can't do both, it is of no use to us. Don't get me wrong, I LIKE FG2 and have bought a full license, but convincing my players is fruitless unless I can prove that all persons connected can sustain both skype and the virtual environment. My own bandwidth is not the sole factor in how well this will work.
On the upside, if I did purchase the unlimited license, it looks like I'd have no trouble getting new players for my games ;)

Again that 10 player game was using VOIP (Mumble) at the same time :)

[damned]

I have up to 6 players using FG and Voice (Ventrillo) on a 800k upload link. Youtr players probably need 200k download - thats all. You have to be smart too - use 50-500k pictures and not 500k-3MB. Try to get players each to connect and get synced up before the campaigns first session - that will drastically reduce download delays on the night. Even when you are having some delays getting going at start of evening if you have uploaded a lot of stuff - we use that time to say hello, see how people are doing and to recap what happened last session. The downloads have finished a long time before we stop talking...

[Griogre]

I use VOIP too, I'd say the majority of games do use some form of it. If you are not using a remote server to host your VOIP then get a player to run the VOIP server for you so it doesn't run off the GM's up bandwidth.

I'd second using something other than Skype. I've used a hosted Teamspeak server in the past but there are a lot of free options like Mumble. I'm currently using RaidCall which is also free.

[Magnatude]

I'm primarily using Skype, but we had also used "Google+" voice one one occasion where Skype was just buggin out. That was ok too.
But so far skype is reasonably stable, and we only have problems with people on laptops using the hotel wireless while they are on the road.

[Callum]

I use VOIP too, I'd say the majority of games do use some form of it. If you are not using a remote server to host your VOIP then get a player to run the VOIP server for you so it doesn't run off the GM's up bandwidth.

I'd second using something other than Skype. I've used a hosted Teamspeak server in the past but there are a lot of free options like Mumble. I'm currently using RaidCall which is also free.
I'd like to second Griogre's advice. We used Ventrilo for quite a while, with one of the players (not the GM) hosting it. We've switched to Teamspeak now, but Ventrilo was fine.

[JohnD]

As a potential purchaser in the coming days, I look at this cost several ways;

1. People put in time/effort/funding to this product and that deserves to get rewarded. No payback means no future product which I think most people here would see as a bad thing.
2. Nobody is forcing a purchase; if FG2 (or any product) isn't going to give you value at least at the level of the price you're paying, don't buy (vote with your wallet).
3. $150 really isn't a huge amount compared to all the $ you spend on the PHB, DMG, MM, MM2, MM3, associated supplements, etc....

[wbcreighton]

3. $150 really isn't a huge amount compared to all the $ you spend on the PHB, DMG, MM, MM2, MM3, associated supplements, etc....

And as an option you can buy a Full License and then upgrade to an Ultimate license later on if you think it will be better.