Problem with behavior of FG2 Dice and graphics

[demonsbane]

Hi,

I want to speak about a problem that I'm having with my FG2 time ago. I know that it happens in more computers, not just in my own. Besides, yesterday in the FG2_General Chat a fellow member was speaking of the same issue.

Well, the thing is the following:

After waking the computer from hibernation or from suspended-sleep mode, the FG2 dice aren't working properly: instead running with the usual quick and smooth animation, they move in an extremely broken, slow and cumbersome way, like at 1-2 Frames per Second . . .

And now that I think, this isn't only affecting dice, but to other FG elements too: when I move windows (charsheet, library entries, etc) inside the app, the displacement movements are broken, slow and cumbersome, spoiling the user's experience in a meaningful way.

To my knowledge, this issue is only "fixed" (temporarily) just by restarting the computer.

Seemingly some graphics routine is messed by waking the computer from hibernation or suspension-sleeping mode, at least regarding FG2 graphic behavior. I have the updated video drivers, to the problem isn't coming from there.

Since I usually have secondary applications running and some documents displayed in the background in my computer, this need of restarting the computer just for properly running Fantasy Grounds 2 it's a meaningful handicap for me most times -I need to re-arrange a number of things again after the restart for returning to my "normal" mode.

I wonder if someone already reported this FG2 graphics issue, and if there is any known fix to this which doesn't involve restarting the computer.

The issue always happens again when the computer is awakened from hibernation or sleep mode.

I'd like to get rid of this issue that I've seen in at least four PCs with Nvidia graphic cards. They are completely different models but in all cases the drivers were and are updated: the Nvidia models are Geforce 9600GT, Geforce 8400m G, GTX 470, and video memory is more than enough in all cases, BTW. Just in case, all systems were running Windows Vista Home Premium, Vista Ultimate or Windows 7 Ultimate, both 32 & 64 bits; I don't remember having this problem while I was using WinXP.

(Apologies: I wrote this post with a bit of hurry)

[Zeus]

I must admit I too have noted the frame rate dip (when throwing dice) but had never associated it following on from a hibernation/sleep of the system.

Having said that, I do quite often use hibernation on my dev system (Windows 7) and I have only noted the frame rate dip on that particular system.

My iMac on the other hand, which gets hibernation treatment quite frequently (more so than the dev system) has never shown the frame rate dip.

My dev system uses an Nvidia GeForce 8600GT whereas my iMac uses an ATi Radeon HD 4850 so maybe it is related to Window Nvidia drivers?

[unerwünscht]

I would like to point out that the HD 4850 will run circles around the the 8600GT.
https://www.gpureview.com/show_cards.php?card1=513&card2=566

[Zeus]

Oh I know, the graphical prowess of the iMac compared to my other Windows systems is quite pronounced. This is in part why I run FGII for my live games under OSX/Wine, much nicer experience all round.

Having said that the 8600GT is no slouch and can easily meet the demands of FGII, even when I run it on an insanely large desktop with 6 clients connected.

As a quick test, I just rebooted my Windows 7 system and started FGII and carried out 100 systematic dice rolls (using a test script I wrote to test my Fumbles & Criticals extension) - no lag or frame dip visible.

I then hibernated the system (with FGII still open). Restarted and relaunched the test script. Still no lag/frame dip visible.

I then closed FGII and the hibernated the system. Restarted and relaunched FGII and the test script - no lag/frame dip visible.

I'll run the same set of test later but this time putting the system to sleep, to see if that shows any different results. I'll let you know.

[demonsbane]

Seemingly the problem comes just from hibernation, and not from awakening the computer from suspension-sleep mode.

EDIT: At least this time, resuming from suspension didn't spoiled FG2 graphic's performance.

[Moon Wizard]

I have also noticed that FG will sometimes have a large frame rate dip (i.e. slow dice) after hibernating, but only when I leave FG running during hibernation and not every time.

However, it hasn't been high on my priority list to resolve, since I usually just restart FG when I resume the machine. It's more of a work vs. reward issue at this point in terms of prioritization. Figuring out this issue will most likely be very time consuming and take a lot of research. Anything with the dice/DirectX portion of the code is, because the original developers created their own unique dice simulation system that I am just beginning to understand fully.

Perhaps you can give me a better understanding of how you are using FG across hibernation sessions, so I can re-assess the priority.

Thanks,
JPG

[demonsbane]

(. . .) Perhaps you can give me a better understanding of how you are using FG across hibernation sessions, so I can re-assess the priority.

Thanks for your attention, moon_wizard.

Let's see. I *never* put a computer into hibernation or sleep-mode with FG2 running, but anyway, after resuming, the frame rate drop usually (always?) was dramatical in the way I explained in the first post.

However right now... I need to make some additional hibernation and sleep tests, because after resuming, FG2 dice and graphics are ultra-fast -that is to say, it keeps the usual behavior.

If I discover something... I'll post again here.

(Last time this happened to me -large frame rate dip- was just before writing the first post here. I haven't changed graphic drivers nor any other element.)

[Moon Wizard]

Just so I can be sure I am on the right page:

* You suspend/hibernate your computer when FG is not running
* After you resume, you start FG and the frame rate is poor (i.e. dice slow)

If that is the case, I haven't seen it myself, but definitely something I can try to keep an eye out for.

Thanks,
JPG

[demonsbane]

Just so I can be sure I am on the right page:

* You suspend/hibernate your computer when FG is not running
* After you resume, you start FG and the frame rate is poor (i.e. dice slow)

If that is the case, I haven't seen it myself, but definitely something I can try to keep an eye out for.

Yes, that is.

[demonsbane]

If I discover something... I'll post again here.

While the frame rate dip after resuming the system from sleep/hibernation happens only from time to time, I've been able to find and to duplicate a definite cause for a meaningful -and sometimes game-impairing- frame rate dip in the Fantasy Grounds 2 application. It is:


Opening library entries.

By opening a number of library entries the FG2 frame rate increasingly starts to drop.

With 30 FPS the thing remains good enough and playable; the problems starts when you are working at 15, 12, 7 FPS, or even 3 FPS.

This issue about the number of FG2 windows-entries opened isn't paralleled to any other sort of FG2 windows-entries: by opening maps, images, character sheets, NPC entries, Story entries, the frame rate is much, much more steady than by opening Library entries.

My conclusion so far is that the FG2 app code can be handling the display of Library entries in a rather odd and maybe wrong -almost "buggy" way.

BTW, the library modules that I'm using here are very small in size... much more smaller in KB than images, maps and other sort of entries, and still the application is rather sluggish while handling them.

For showing how the Library entries are causing the frame rate dip, along with the disparity of frame rate results between opening FG2 Library entries and other sorts of FG2 windows-entries, I did a few screenshots with the FPS shown as a yellow number at the right-down corner of each image.



No Library entries = 60 (max) Frames Per Second
https://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l152/demonsbane_2006/0libentries60-max-FPS.jpg


3 Library entries = 44 Frames Per Second
https://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l152/demonsbane_2006/3libentries45FPS.jpg


7 Library entries = 31 Frames Per Second
https://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l152/demonsbane_2006/7libentries30FPS.jpg


10 Library entries = 22 Frames Per Second
https://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l152/demonsbane_2006/10libentries22FPS.jpg


15 Library entries = 12 Frames Per Second
https://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l152/demonsbane_2006/15libentries12FPS.jpg


And here are the following screenshots for showing the aforementioned disparity of the FG2 behavior regarding Library entries and other sorts of windows-entries:



0 Library entries - 10 different windows (char sheets, pictures, NPC entries, Story entries, etc) = 44 FPS
https://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l152/demonsbane_2006/0libentries10differentwindows44FPS.jpg


No Library entries - 15 different windows (char sheets, pictures, NPC entries, Story entries, etc) = 42 FPS
https://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l152/demonsbane_2006/0libentries15differentwindows42FPS.jpg


No Library entries - 21 different windows (char sheets, pictures, NPC entries, Story entries, etc) = 36 FPS
https://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l152/demonsbane_2006/0libentries21differentwindows36FPS.jpg



This has been tested with different computers: one running Win7 32 bits (2gb RAM) and other running Win7 64 bits (8 gigs of RAM), achieving the same results after a fresh OS restart (sometimes the results are a bit worse with -seemingly- accumulated sleep/hibernations and ulterior resumes). Both computers are using multi-core processors and Nvidia graphics cards with good-to-great performance capabilities (Geforce 8499m G 128MB and GTX470 1280MB).

PS: Moon_Wizard, I want to tell to you that after resuming from hibernation or sleep with a frame rate dip in FG2, I tried the /reset command that you suggested to me in the chat, but it caused no result, no effect.

[Moon Wizard]

Thanks, demonsbane. Great detective work.

It seems like something specific in the library windows is sucking up a lot of processing time, thus forcing the frame rate down. My guess is that there is some link to windowlist controls, since they are used heavily in library windows but not in other windows.

I have already identified a few windowlist performance issues during my work on v2.8, and I'm hoping that the fixes I put in place will help the performance issues that you've noticed.

When I get v2.8 on the test servers, I'm hoping that you can take a look and see what you find. Especially since it looks like you run a non D&D ruleset.

Thanks,
JPG

[demonsbane]

Sounds good, moon_wizard: I'll be looking forward to the v2.8 release!

-

In effect, I'm not running a D&D ruleset, but the GURPS 4e ruleset for Fantasy Grounds 2 (along with the GURPS 4_Enhanced extension) (https://enhanced.vlexofree.com/) that, however, I think that is based on the structure of the original d20 ruleset. (https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showpost.php?p=83288&postcount=3)

[demonsbane]

A further observation:

For what it's worth, the frame rate dip is not only caused due the number of the Library Entries displayed in the Fantasy Grounds' screen, but besides because the size and complexity of such Library Entries.

For instance: entries with few lines of content -like a paragraph- cause frame rate dip, but less than longer entries containing more paragraphs, or those with big, full-fledged tables.

(Still, small Library Entries cause the aforementioned unparalleled frame rate dip regarding other Fantasy Grounds' windows.)

I just tested this.

[damned]

i just tested opening libraries on my computer and exactly the same symptons. well maybe not exactly as i have a slwoer computer but the degradation in performance was very noticeable and very significant. game almost didnt run with 12 library windows open.

[Moon Wizard]

I'm also guessing the formattedtext entries are going to have a MUCH bigger impact than strings, due to the processing required.

Regards,
JPG

[demonsbane]

(. . .) I have already identified a few windowlist performance issues during my work on v2.8, and I'm hoping that the fixes I put in place will help the performance issues that you've noticed.

When I get v2.8 on the test servers, I'm hoping that you can take a look and see what you find.

Right now I'm making some tests, as you can see in the Test Release 2.8 (Part 2) (https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?p=110048&posted=1#post110048) thread.

[demonsbane]

Let's see. I *never* put a computer into hibernation or sleep-mode with FG2 running, but anyway, after resuming, the frame rate drop usually (always?) was dramatical in the way I explained in the first post.

If I discover something... I'll post again here.


Casually, by checking another computer, I just reproduced the frame rate dip just after waking from hibernation and launching the FG2 app afterwards: the rig is an Intel Quad 9450 2,66 GH, RAM 4GB 1066 DDR2, Nvidia GTX 470 1280 DDR5 RAM, Win7 Ultimate. No other apps running in the background.

Here is a small video on how it performs just rolling a few dice. (https://dl.dropbox.com/u/12554407/FG2%20graphics%20%26%20dice%20performance%20after% 20hibernation.wmv)

This very frame rate dip also happened with other machines, as I said earlier.

I want to point -as a reminder- that this performance issue in particular -just after hibernation- has nothing to do with the frame rate dip caused by the number & content of the displayed Library Entries. Indeed you can see that there are no FG's windows opened in the linked video.

EDIT: the computer with this performance issue is running the last update of the 2.8.0 test release.

[Moon Wizard]

From the video, I'm not seeing any lag in the interface (or maybe just not noticable when watching vs. doing). Do you actually notice slowdowns in the interface, or just the frame rate dip?

As I mentioned in a previous post, due to the way that FG handles drawing of the interface, the frame rate is not a valid metric of performance. It will vary wildly and will show low numbers regularly. It is expected based on the way drawing is handled.

Thanks,
JPG

[demonsbane]

Hi Moon_Wizard,

In that session, I just tested the behavior of dice, and noticing the frame rate dip, we recorded some rolls. We didn't tested the performance of other aspects of the app.

You say that you aren't seeing slowdowns in the dice animations. But they aren't working properly, even if it can be more noticeable by doing than just by seeing it for a few seconds.

Just ignore the FPS value shown by FRAPS in that video and look at the actual dice animations: they are suffering from stuttering and slowed animation, moving in chunks, lacking of smoothness. That is not the normal behavior of FG2 dice.

For contrast and comparison, I just uploaded another video showing the normal speed and quality of FG2 dice rolling. (https://dl.dropbox.com/u/12554407/FG2%20normal%20graphics%20%26%20dice%20performance .wmv) (Disregard a few "artifacts" shown in the shadows dropped by some dice. . . , it seems a FRAPS recording issue and nothing more). Maybe arranging both videos to play one at the side of the other helps to make the difference more obvious.

(The next time I'll record again the slowed 3d dice animation, along with the behavior of another features of the FG2 app.)

[unerwünscht]

I think the issue might be your computer, I just ran 100d6 100 times back to back, and didn't see any notable slowdown in the dice, nor did it bring my cpu load up by any notable amount.

[demonsbane]

unerwünscht:

The odd thing is that I've been testing this, and having the same results, with three different computers so far (two of them mine, I mentioned this in an earlier post). I remember another user that spoke to me about the same frame rate dip issue after hibernation in the Fg2 Chat.

Also, during the FG2 frame rate dips, the CPU/GPU load remains the same that without performance issues: to my mind, it doesn't seem to be a computer-capabilities issue, but instead a sort of glitch.

[Hemish]

I just bought a Master license of this software and I never used hibernate in my life and I'm getting a very intensive stuttering/lag of everything. Enough that I can't use it.

I'm running a core i7 920, Crossfire Radeon 4870 1gig and 6 gig of DDR3-1600mhz so I doubt it's the computer as I tested the demo at a friend's place on his old laptop and it ran more smoothly.

I tried running monitoring tools and when I'm throwing dices for exemple, the computer is not even taxed so it's not something going into overdrive.

[Moon Wizard]

I haven't had any reports of stuttering/lagging in general. Given that you tried the demo on another machine, you can see that the program generally runs smoothly.

Let's go over a few things and see if we can help:
* Which OS are you running?
* When you installed, did you check the cross-platform compatibility mode checkbox?
* Can you make sure you are running the latest release of DirectX and your graphics drivers?
* Which version of Fantasy Grounds displays on the launcher screen?
* What other applications are running when you are running Fantasy Grounds? Can you try running FG without any other programs running?
* Does it run slowly right after you startup, or only after using your computer for a bit?
* Which ruleset (game system) are you running?
* How are you rolling the dice? Picking up from desktop, rolling from character sheet, etc.?

Thanks,
JPG

[damned]

how many windows/screens/objects do you have open in FG? I see this once I get to about 7 objects opened. And gets worse the more I have opened. Mind you my system is nothing like yours!

[Hemish]

I haven't had any reports of stuttering/lagging in general. Given that you tried the demo on another machine, you can see that the program generally runs smoothly.

Let's go over a few things and see if we can help:
* Which OS are you running?
* When you installed, did you check the cross-platform compatibility mode checkbox?
* Can you make sure you are running the latest release of DirectX and your graphics drivers?
* Which version of Fantasy Grounds displays on the launcher screen?
* What other applications are running when you are running Fantasy Grounds? Can you try running FG without any other programs running?
* Does it run slowly right after you startup, or only after using your computer for a bit?
* Which ruleset (game system) are you running?
* How are you rolling the dice? Picking up from desktop, rolling from character sheet, etc.?

Thanks,
JPG

1. Windows 7 Pro 64 bits
2. I didn't check the cross platform compatibility checkbox because I'm running Windows.
3. I'm an avid gamer so I'm always installing the latest DirectX or video drivers when I encounter any graphical anomalies before spending hours in vain! :D
4. Version 2.8.0, I forgot to update the first time I ran the program, when I noticed I hadn't, I did it thinking my issue would be resolved. It didn't. I then wrote my reply to this thread.
5. Yahoo Messenger, googletalk, msn, firefox are my active programs. I already tried closing them.
6. Always slow.
7. I'm using the default D&D 3.5 ruleset.
8. I tried at 2 places. In the Manage Character when I need to roll new stats and in the main window of New Campaign. I don't even need to roll the dice, as soon as I click on a dice to pick it up, the dice (and thus mouse cursor) suffers from the lag/skipping/stutters. If I throw the dice, they stutters like crazy. Something like 1-2 frame per second so they look like they're teleporting messily. I tried monitoring my cpu, ram and video card usage when it stutters, thinking one of them would hit 100%. I even tried running a video and music while doing it to test if the system in general was getting affected without showing any increase in activity and only FG suffers from the stuttering, so it's not my system going crazy and running out of steam.


how many windows/screens/objects do you have open in FG? I see this once I get to about 7 objects opened. And gets worse the more I have opened. Mind you my system is nothing like yours!

I didn't use the application yet so I'm not sure what you're asking. Max I had so far were 2 windows. The rolling stats from Manage Characters and its companion traditional character sheet. It stutters with only the rolling stats page.

[Moon Wizard]

Everything looks fine from your answers.

The only thing I can think of that would cause stuttering is something in the configuration that is causing DirectX to do something different for FG.
* Perhaps forced software rendering?
* FG is using DX9 under the hood, so perhaps an issue with DX9 support on your system?
* The resource monitor (CPU, memory) may not give a good indication, if it's your graphics card that is getting overloaded.

Regards,
JPG

[Trenloe]

* FG is using DX9 under the hood, so perhaps an issue with DX9 support on your system?

Hemish, perhaps run dxdiag to see what that reports?

1) Click your "Start" button and then "Run," or simply press the Windows or Meta key and "R" simultaneously to launch the Run dialog.

2) Type "dxdiag" into the text-entry field labeled "Open" and press "Enter," or click "OK" to launch the Microsoft DirectX Diagnostic Tool.

3) Click "Yes" at the WHQL Certificates Download Request. This will allow Microsoft and DirectX to check and confirm your hardware over the Internet.

4 )Look at the bottom of the DirectX Diagnostic Tool's main window, under the "System" tab, for the field labeled "DirectX Version." If this field lists "DirectX 9.0" or above, you have a DirectX 9-compatible system.

5) On the "Display" tab check what "DirectX Features" are enabled. Check if there are any comments under "Notes".

[Hemish]

Hemish, perhaps run dxdiag to see what that reports?

1) Click your "Start" button and then "Run," or simply press the Windows or Meta key and "R" simultaneously to launch the Run dialog.

2) Type "dxdiag" into the text-entry field labeled "Open" and press "Enter," or click "OK" to launch the Microsoft DirectX Diagnostic Tool.

3) Click "Yes" at the WHQL Certificates Download Request. This will allow Microsoft and DirectX to check and confirm your hardware over the Internet.

4 )Look at the bottom of the DirectX Diagnostic Tool's main window, under the "System" tab, for the field labeled "DirectX Version." If this field lists "DirectX 9.0" or above, you have a DirectX 9-compatible system.

5) On the "Display" tab check what "DirectX Features" are enabled. Check if there are any comments under "Notes".

Everything is fine there. No problems found in Notes. It says Directx 11.


Everything looks fine from your answers.

The only thing I can think of that would cause stuttering is something in the configuration that is causing DirectX to do something different for FG.
* Perhaps forced software rendering?
* FG is using DX9 under the hood, so perhaps an issue with DX9 support on your system?
* The resource monitor (CPU, memory) may not give a good indication, if it's your graphics card that is getting overloaded.

Regards,
JPG

I had forgotten about that and I disabled all my custom settings I sometimes use for specific games in my ATI Control Panel. I just checked the video cards activity and I can't go above 0% with just Fantasy Ground. :p

[demonsbane]

After waking the computer from hibernation or from suspended-sleep mode, the FG2 dice aren't working properly: instead of running with the usual quick and smooth animation, they move in an extremely broken, slow and cumbersome way, like at 1-2 Frames per Second

For what is worth, this issue isn't happening anymore with Windows 10 Pro 64 bits *. The computer, graphics card and specs are the aforementioned.

However, it still happens under Windows 7 64 bits, even with a different graphics card (a Geforce GTX 750 Ti).

Now, I think that this performance-issue-after-hibernation only affects the 3d dice. Not sure if I specified it before.

* Maybe it's related to the inclusion of DirectX 12 in the OS.

[midas]

That'll be one diamond (at least 500gp value) for the raise dead you just cast. :)

[demonsbane]

LOL midas; well it's an issue that has been affecting me since then, and maybe others too. So, more feedback ;)

[demonsbane]

The 3d dice become laggy too with Windows 10 after a few consecutive hibernations.

But not so much as to be nearly useless as in the aforementioned Windows 7 case.

[demonsbane]

Update: the problem reported in this thread is not happening to me anymore since the release of version 3.1.7. I don't see any decrease in graphics performance after consecutive sleep and hibernations, which is great.

So I encourage other people having these sort of issues to try the last version of Fantasy Grounds.

Edit: The 3d dice slowdown and stuttering still happens, but it takes more consecutive hibernations than before.

[damned]

Update: the problem reported in this thread is not happening to me anymore since the release of version 3.1.7. I don't see any decrease in graphics performance after consecutive sleep and hibernations, which is great.

So I encourage other people having these sort of issues to try the last version of Fantasy Grounds.

You should *always* use the latest version!

[demonsbane]

You should *always* use the latest version!

Yep :) I meant it for some people having abandoned the use of this app because persistent graphics problems. Who knows, this 3.1.7 update could make the difference for them as well!

[demonsbane]

Update: the problem reported in this thread is not happening to me anymore since the release of version 3.1.7. I don't see any decrease in graphics performance after consecutive sleep and hibernations, which is great.

Here's a clarification for what is worth: this issue wasn't actually a new thing from 3.1.6 nor anything like that. I think Moon_Wizard just will agree.

The explanation is that Windows 10 handles shutdowns (at least by default) not completely resetting the system, but keeping some user & session data for a faster start up. and judging from my experience, some of such data from previous sessions includes whatever makes Fantasy Grounds to perform slow after a number of hibernations. So, each W10 shut down and start up counts as a consecutive hibernation; only resetting breaks this cycle. And this was "the provisional fix" that I found, myself wrongly attributing it to FG version 3.1.7 (it happened that I ran the update just after making a restart!).

Tl; Dr: the problem here was W10 shutdown system, which by keeping data from earlier sessions makes any start up to continue the consecutive hibernations issue. So my conclusion is that nothing changed importantly here with FG version 3.1.6 nor 3.1.7.

[xxXEliteXxx]

I'm on Windows 7 (x64) and I'm also seeing dice slowdown after one or two hibernations. From what I can tell it doesn't have to do with the amount of modules, extensions, or images/tokens being loaded, as the dice will still be laggy/stuttery in a fresh new campaign with no modules, extensions, or tokens. Happens the same regardless of ruleset, windows open in FG, or programs running in the background. The stuttering only gets worse with consecutive hibernations.

Restarting my computer fixes the dice stuttering until I put my computer into hibernation or sleep mode again.


PC Specs: Windows 7 (x64), Core i7-7700k, Radeon RX-480, 16 GB RAM.
Running FG 3.3.0. Drivers and DirectX are up to date.

[LordEntrails]

I'm on Windows 7 (x64) and I'm also seeing dice slowdown after one or two hibernations. From what I can tell it doesn't have to do with the amount of modules, extensions, or images/tokens being loaded, as the dice will still be laggy/stuttery in a fresh new campaign with no modules, extensions, or tokens. Happens the same regardless of ruleset, windows open in FG, or programs running in the background. The stuttering only gets worse with consecutive hibernations.

Restarting my computer fixes the dice stuttering until I put my computer into hibernation or sleep mode again.


PC Specs: Windows 7 (x64), Core i7-7700k, Radeon RX-480, 16 GB RAM.
Running FG 3.3.0. Drivers and DirectX are up to date.
I've seen hibernation cause problems with other programs too. I don't use it because of that.

[Trenloe]

This pretty much seems to be a core Windows/DirectX issue. Not much Fantasy Grounds can do about it I'm afraid. From demonsbane's report above it appears to occur a lot less in Windows 10, but is still there.