Healing Surges & Ext. Rests

[vodokar]

I wanted to see if I could get some opinions on this subject.

I'm attempting to put a little more gritty feel into 4e dungeon crawls.

I like the design of 4e with healing surges greatly alleviating the need for party dependency on clerics, however, it seems all too easy of a solution for groups to just spend their healing surges between combats and then take an extended rest to get them all back--the so-called short adventure day which avoids mostly having to deal with dwindling resources over the course of an adventure.

As DM, I want to have a little more positive control over when they are allowed to take extended rests. I've considered different options. This one seems to me to be the best idea.

This is an idea from D&D Online. In that game, you can only heal by magic or by going to a specific safe area in the dungeon called a rest shrine. You can only regain spells at a rest shrine also. You may only use a specific rest shrine once during an adventure.

The effect is to make the dungeon crawl more dangerous and to force you to be conservative on resources. An added additional pressure on the party is that you only get experience for completing a quest, not for killing things, and if you leave the dungeon, you take a negative modifier to the quest exp. So, the effect is to make you stay in the dungeon and have to find a way thru using the resources that you have. It can be challenging, but very fun.

So, I was thinking of doing something like that with 4e.

Quest Experience = the total experience of all of the encounters in the dungeon plus any quest bonuses (this means if you complete the quest by stealthing by the nasty monsters, you still get the experience). If you exit the dungeon before completing the quest, you lose 25% of the exp. off of the quest experience you will earn upon completion (max 50% penalty).

Daily Powers, daily spells and healing surges only refresh at the designated safe area and can only use that safe area once each dungeon visit. Longer dungeons would contain more than one safe area--you just have to survive to get to the next one.

This puts control back into the DM's hands on setting the challenge the PC's have to face, not just in one encounter, but over the entire dungeon, and does so without having to change any of the 4e core game mechanics.

Opinions?

[kairos]

I think that works, and sounds appropriate for 4E. What I would do, though, would be to leave the rules as written, but ratchet up the pace of the challenges so rest periods are all but non-existent. In other words, instead of the pace of the encounters being set by the players, with the characters advancing carefully from room to room, let the monsters harry them to whole time, so that they are always in some sort of pitched or running battle. :D

[Koldoon]

extended rests by definition can only restore abilities once per day. The solution then is goals and tasks that require completion in one day. This is, in fact, how many (if not most) LFR adventures keep parity between adventures... very few adventures allow an extended rest and in those that do, taking one will often result in an autofailure of the primary goal.

This setup, however, does disadvantage wizards to some degree, since they are effectively unable to access the spells in their spellbook.

Also, extended rests have to uninterrupted and restful. It is not hard to imagine a scenario where, for instance, failure of a skill challenge results in not being able to setup a comfortable rest that allows recovery of resources.

[vodokar]

or wandering monsters

That is the other solution I had in mind. If you have to have uninterrupted rest and you keep getting interrupted, sooner or later, you'll get the hint.

Bottom line is: One method or another, it should be the DM deciding when time passes and you can refresh, not the players.

With my earlier suggestion, it is effectively delinking the daily refreshes from the time element, so you don't have to argue with players why they can't just advance time for hours or days, at will. But, other methods could probably achieve the same thing, such as just telling them they can't do it.

The ultimate effect I'm trying to achieve here is re-instilling a sense of danger and causing the players to have to think and use what they got available instead of just keep relying on extended rests to save them.

[Koldoon]

the real thing is to give them a time constraint and a reason that they need to not take the extended rest.

Anything from the kidnapped person could be killed to the players being doggedly pursued (not so closely that they can't get an occassional rest in, but perhaps enough that they can't get the extra healing from free use of leader healing abilities in the mix). PCs who hole up in a room can find that the creature wanting in can burst in the door, or find themselves captive because they left themselves no exit.

If they still do it you can adjust by increasing recharge frequency on monster powers, or giving monster encounter powers a recharge... if the players are replenishing their resources, give the monsters an edge to fight back.

But you might want to check with your PCs too. Maybe a cakewalk through the adventures is what is fun for them, maybe that's what makes them feel heroic.

[Pluvious]

Hey,

I'm going to be in this game so I will chime in. :p

To be honest not a big fan of the "rest shrine". It just does not seem like a real thing and I would prefer you to simply control if the group cannot rest or heal, etc.

I have been reading DMG2 a bit recently and at the beginning are some ideas pacing and momentum on around page 52-55 that I think are solid ideas. And it lets you stick with the rules as is but YOU really control what you want to happen.

You can add things like a time deadline (how can you rest for 6 hours if there is a deadline?), or racing against an enemy, etc. They also suggest a house rule to not allow extended rests until milestones are completed which might work.

Also I like the idea if you try to rest in an area then you disrupt them. Of course the group could go back and rest outside.

I personally do not know any of the premade adventures or how they handle this kind of stuff but there should be drama hopefully besides just looting a dungeon.

Anyway, my opinion would be to build the "difficulty" or "drama" into the game and eliminating the "Desire" to meta game rest. I want to be in the story and won't push for rest to get powers. I will play according to what "makes sense" in terms of what is going on. Sleep in a dangerous area? Does not sound like something smart most of the time. Got somewhere to go? Better hurry then. Or whatever. :D

[vodokar]

Well, as we haven't started the campaign yet, I'm not saying that abusing rests will be an issue with our group. I'm simply stating a problem that many of a DM has noted is an issue with 4e with many groups, as the rules as written, sort of allow the players to do it.

I personally haven't played 4e extensively enough to know first hand how much of a problem this can be, but I have played enough to know that many of the modules we will be using and suggested encounters really aren't all that challenging if you allow frequent extended rests.

It is really an old school vs new school thing. Many new gamers come to 4e after only having experienced the World of Warcraft stuff and expect to have things be easy. D&D 4e sort of caters to that crowd.

That's not how we played d&d back in the day. And since most of my players are old schoolers, I'm aiming to put a little grit back in the game. Nothin feels better than leaving a dungeon having got your shins kicked in and the stuffing almost beat out of ya, but ya still somehow pulled it together and won the day.

I just reviewed the pages you are referring to, Pluvious. That is indeed some good stuff. I do find it interesting that the game designers themselves realize this is an issue that they have to address with these suggestions.

As I said, it's a known issue that many DM's, that don't know what the old style of play was like, simply let the players play on easy mode, refreshing their powers pretty much anytime they feel like.

I certainly don't want to be too much of a hard *** DM. However, I firmly believe that if there isn't enough challenge and fear of death, you guys won't have nearly as much fun, which is why I'm ruminating on the possibilities. It's because I luv ya.

[Pluvious]

Well, as we haven't started the campaign yet, I'm not saying that abusing rests will be an issue with our group. I'm simply stating a problem that many of a DM has noted is an issue with 4e with many groups, as the rules as written, sort of allow the players to do it.

I personally haven't played 4e extensively enough to know first hand how much of a problem this can be, but I have played enough to know that many of the modules we will be using and suggested encounters really aren't all that challenging if you allow frequent extended rests.

It is really an old school vs new school thing. Many new gamers come to 4e after only having experienced the World of Warcraft stuff and expect to have things be easy. D&D 4e sort of caters to that crowd.

That's not how we played d&d back in the day. And since most of my players are old schoolers, I'm aiming to put a little grit back in the game. Nothin feels better than leaving a dungeon having got your shins kicked in and the stuffing almost beat out of ya, but ya still somehow pulled it together and won the day.

I just reviewed the pages you are referring to, Pluvious. That is indeed some good stuff. I do find it interesting that the game designers themselves realize this is an issue that they have to address with these suggestions.

As I said, it's a known issue that many DM's, that don't know what the old style of play was like, simply let the players play on easy mode, refreshing their powers pretty much anytime they feel like.

I certainly don't want to be too much of a hard *** DM. However, I firmly believe that if there isn't enough challenge and fear of death, you guys won't have nearly as much fun, which is why I'm ruminating on the possibilities. It's because I luv ya.

I completely agree with you. Don't worry. We're on the same page. Be tough and challenging. I just did not love the initial idea is all. But that could work. If it also feels like it "makes sense" somehow. Why would there be a shrine to rest at everywhere? I don't know...might be misunderstanding it.

I'm not familiar enough with 4E either to know how hard/easy it can be. Seems like though it can be as easy/hard as you want it to be though. I know in my real life 4E game it is too easy and there is too much meta game talking for my liking. But as a new player I don't feel comfortable offering suggestions yet but I think the problem is the DM and not the system in that case.

But I like where you are going...looking forward to it.

[vodokar]

I had a feeling that you would be on the same page with me, Pluvious. And, based on the fact that virtually everyone in the group hasn't played D&D since the 1e or 2e days, I'm willing to bet that they will feel the same. New game, but expecting it to somewhat approximate their old experiences, tone and feel. 4e can certainly handle that.

We'll play rough and tumble. Everyone will have great fun. If someone gets killed, that doesn't necessarily mean they have to roll a new character, just that there will be maybe some debt incurred to the local temple to raise them or whatever.

All depends on how hardcore you guys want to be. But, as you've seen with even your limited 4e play, the typical 4e group out there is pretty much playing on easy mode and it's unusual if anyone ever even skins a knee, or at least, not that they can't just take a quick rest and it's all better now.

4e itself is a fun game. The mechanics are fun. Just up to us old schoolers to keep the true D&D spirit alive and flourishing.

So, we'll get ourselves bloodied up a bit, face the many dangers out there with a stiff upper lip, maybe have to haul a friend back to town to get raised occasionally and celebrate at the local pub that we didn't have to worship at the TPK alter. The ale and the gold will be sweet and so will all the victories.

What method we go about to achieve that isn't so important. Likely, we'll just keep things simple and go with DM controlling the timing on extended rests -- on the basis of you just can't always find a safe, restful place in a dark dangerous dungeon. That is pretty much the way DM's have always handled resting in dungeons in the past.

On the flip side, it makes each healing surge and daily power you have just that more important. It also gives the option of DM rewarding you in the form of an extra healing surge or power refresh for doing something awesome or roleplaying well etc.

One issue I am definitely going to be paying close attention to is the healing surges available to the individual characters. The pace that a party is able to go is based on the weakest person. The big bad fighter may have 10 healing surges left, but if the thief has run out, he's going to be in trouble. If this becomes an issue, there is a ritual I know of (comrade's succor) which I can make available to the party that allows one character to give healing surges to another character in order to keep him on his feet, thus allowing the group to better even out the resources and keep things going a bit longer.

Incidentally, I believe I will go with the idea of using quest completion as criteria for experience rewards. It will save a ton of book keeping in the long run, as well as, rewarding smart players, as it doesn't matter how you achieve it to get the reward--giving more options than just hack n slash and rewards for smart play are always good. I'm not sure about the penalty for leaving the dungeon. Perhaps, it might be a bonus instead for not leaving, just to reward taking the hard road.

[Griogre]

If your guys are old school you aren't going to have a problem. The worst problem I had in the beginning was getting them to *take* short rests. :p

On the extended rest problem, its the same as the one encounter adventuring day in other editions. To me, as others have suggested the best solution is to make goals/quests that don't allow the party to take multiple extended rests. Even in a gritty campaign, not every adventure is usually that urgent, though. I tell my guys if they can't average 5 or 6 encounters per day then they need to take a hard look at their tactics, party mix and individual powers.

In 4E, symptom of a group who's characters are not in sync is a 2 or 3 encounter adventuring day once the players are familiar with the system.

[vodokar]

Thanks, Griogre. That was very informative.

[gmkieran]

Lots of good thoughts here and interesting ideas. Just a couple of my own - I'm a *huge* fan of not giving the party a lot of time to rest. I enjoy throwing random checks (perception, insight, the odd percentile roll) at them and *occasionally* have that result in some kind of action. I try to do it throughout their adventure day and during rest periods (and I'm not above *planning* the occasional night ambush ;) ). As far as Griogre's last comment, we've been playing for close to 2 years, now, in the same campaign and I think we've managed more than one encounter in a game day exactly twice. Half the time, encounters last more than one session (have yet to run combat in under an hour) and only take up 20 minutes in-game.

In any case, have fun!