Thinking About Buying

[Dunlaing]

I have a few questions about this ruleset before I buy it, and I'd appreciate anyone willing to answer them.

How automated are the crit results? If a player does a crit to a skeleton that pierces an internal organ and kills it, can I (as the GM) choose to only apply the other parts of the crit and not have the skeleton die? (they don't have organs).

Is it hard to tweak a character to use something not in the ruleset? For example, if we want to use the Background Options out of the Rolemaster Companion, is it easy to just add things to the character to make it work?

Does it work well? Are there a lot of bugs?

Knowing what you know now, would you still have bought FG and the ruleset?


Thank you!

[Veldehar]

The thing to know about RMC in Fantasy grounds is that there is automation, but it is what I would label "hands on" automation. You do not simply roll an attack and whiz-bang everything is done for you. The GM still has the ultimate decision on everything. I rarely drag and drop any crit, I find it gets terribly repetitive. I nudge all over the place, just like I do in table top games.

In the same vein, optional rules can vary from extremely simple to implement to very complicated. Let's say purely for example that JoeBob has some advanced knowledge of how to fight trolls (+10). All one has to do is note that on the sheet and have a dice roll macro with the +10. Now if you start going into, say, sticking in extra spells lists then you have to do some coding if you want it built into the game. Not difficult, but it is a bit more complex. Barely coding, really just data management. Now if you wanted to totally customize combat! that would likely take some work

If I ever get the OK from ICE I will likely take the time to implement additional professions and races for the ruleset... and I am not a programmer, so it must not be too difficult. I also managed to develop the drag and drop for this ruleset, that was an adventure in itself! I don't like coding, but I like what it can do, lol.

I personally don't encounter too many bugs... but it will take some getting used to. Sometimes things don't always work exactly how you'd expect, but everything tends to work.

Lee

[RKBrumbelow]

The biggest problem with RM2nd (and understand I love RM2nd) is that it is not RMC. RMC does not have the copyright issues that RM2nd does. When ICE went into receivership (bankruptcy and subsequent sale) much of the rights for RM2nd material reverted back to the authors and illustrators. Some of these are out of contact and as a result they cannot give their permission for distribution of their content. What does all this mean: At the present time Rolemaster content for Companions 2-7 as well as much else in that era is not distributable. Any changes you make to the RMC ruleset cannot be distributed to anyone than your players, and then only for them as players not as GMs.

The one thing we could do would be come up with an extensible framework and code which each GM could then enter data into. Spells, classes, training packages (if you wanted to implement them from RMSS/ RMFRP etc) cannot be distributed.

[Velocinox]

I have a few questions about this ruleset before I buy it, and I'd appreciate anyone willing to answer them.

How automated are the crit results? If a player does a crit to a skeleton that pierces an internal organ and kills it, can I (as the GM) choose to only apply the other parts of the crit and not have the skeleton die? (they don't have organs).

Is it hard to tweak a character to use something not in the ruleset? For example, if we want to use the Background Options out of the Rolemaster Companion, is it easy to just add things to the character to make it work?

Does it work well? Are there a lot of bugs?

Knowing what you know now, would you still have bought FG and the ruleset?


Thank you!

I would say stay away, or if you just want to lose $20, burn a $20 bill. At least you'll have the aroma of it lingering. Because if you send it here you'll never see a trace of it again.

If you have any problems with the Rolemaster ruleset any request for help will get ignored. You can see for yourself in my post on the 5th page of the house of *cough* healing forum, were it has fallen after 3 months, 36 views, and 0 replies. If it had been a minor problem, fine but I spent the $20 couldn't get it to install correctly and was subsequently ignored. So, let my $20 be a lesson for you before you throw your good money after my bad.

This is from someone that has actually given back to this product with a number of bug fixes submitted for the Savage Worlds upcoming ruleset, and a donation of time and effort in providing improved functionality to their spell page code.

You were warned.

[RKBrumbelow]

I would say stay away, or if you just want to lose $20, burn a $20 bill. At least you'll have the aroma of it lingering. Because if you send it here you'll never see a trace of it again.

If you have any problems with the Rolemaster ruleset any request for help will get ignored. You can see for yourself in my post on the 5th page of the house of *cough* healing forum, were it has fallen after 3 months, 36 views, and 0 replies. If it had been a minor problem, fine but I spent the $20 couldn't get it to install correctly and was subsequently ignored. So, let my $20 be a lesson for you before you throw your good money after my bad.


You did not get any replies because your question has been answered elsewhere Velocinox. The only problem you are having is a simple table of contents entry where it says 1.1 as opposed to 1.2 This is a VERY minor issue and if you really want it changed on your ruleset go in and change it to 1.2.

If on the other hand you had asked this question in the RMC threads you would have gotten an answer almost immediately. See thread https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13836 which you posted in but apparently did not read the statements before, you then crossposted the same issue 16 hours later in https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13886 Since the answer is in the original thread you posted in but could not be bothered to read why would you expect someone to answer the same question again elsewhere? The question was re-answered in this thread https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14279.

[Velocinox]

You did not get any replies because your question has been answered elsewhere Velocinox. The only problem you are having is a simple table of contents entry where it says 1.1 as opposed to 1.2 This is a VERY minor issue and if you really want it changed on your ruleset go in and change it to 1.2.

It wasn't answered at the time and was only ignored.


If on the other hand you had asked this question in the RMC threads you would have gotten an answer almost immediately. See thread https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13836

So, you're saying if I had posted in that thread instead of house of healing (the tech help forum) I would have gotten an answer? Because still, even now I don't see an answer in that thread, but I do see my request for help in the last post which was ignored. There is no 'answer' in that thread to my question Mr. Brumbelow.


which you posted in but apparently did not read the statements before, you then crossposted the same issue 16 hours later in https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13886

So you read a bit further and noticed that I actually had posted in that thread, but had you read it with focus on helping me instead of intent on being snide in your reply to me you would see my question was not about downloading the wrong file, but that I got the correct file and that it still had an error. There was also NO REPLY to that question.


Since the answer is in the original thread you posted in but could not be bothered to read why would you expect someone to answer the same question again elsewhere?

And if you were about to say you weren't being 'snide' in the above comment, I offer this snide statement that in fact you were less looking for a resolution to my problem than the chance to be snide to someone that 'could not be bothered to read' and was expecting too much to be answered specifically. Really, who do I think I am after ultimate edition, 5 rulesets, settings, and an attempt to actually help this company with not only pointing out bugs but writing code to fix it that is getting included, and writing code to improve ruleset functionality given to FG2 for free just to help out a company I thought at the time I was loyal to? Yea, what kind of jerk am I? Just a customer seeing the light apparently.


The question was re-answered in this thread https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14279.
Yes, this is the actual answer, 3 months after I asked. Which leads me to ask, since I posted in the RMC forums and in the House of healing forums (which I thought was the right place.. I mean stupid loyal customer me for posting in the customer service thread!) Why did you answer the question 3 months later but ignored both of my posts requesting the same information?

Dunlaing, read this thread carefully and see how a 5 year multi-purchase customer is treated and then go over to the free product at www.rptools.net and read any post in their forum asking for help and see how they are treated. I leave it with you, deal with folks willing to help or give money to Mr. Snide here so he can ignore you later. Seems like an obvious choice to me that I unfortunately only learned now. At least you can benefit from my long term expensive mistake.

[RKBrumbelow]

Velocinox said...

Plonk

And now he doesn't need to worry about me every answering his questions again.

[Velocinox]

Velocinox said...

Plonk

And now he doesn't need to worry about me every answering his questions again.

And still you dont read, just act snide.

You can only say, "Get lost, We don't need your money" so many times before you don't have any customers left.

[kurtyboh]

I think all RKBrumbelow is trying to say is, if you as the same question in 2 different threads there is a likely chance that it will be answered in only one of them.

I have found answers to every question I have asked both in the forums and in the chatroom. Some of these answers were ones that I wasn't pleased with such as feature coming, or not possible. Many times though I have found the answer I was looking for and recieved the help that was needed.

[Velocinox]

I think all RKBrumbelow is trying to say is, if you as the same question in 2 different threads there is a likely chance that it will be answered in only one of them.

Well a bit more internet-rude then you make him out to be, but yea I think that was what he meant to say, unfortunately both of my posts with the question are ignored and the question is only answered 3 months later in someone else's post, and still doesn't address the fact that I had to buy the product twice, nor the fact that the people in charge couldn't take the time to reply to my support posts. So yea, my answer to Dunlaing is still; better to pass on this product.

[RKBrumbelow]

I think all RKBrumbelow is trying to say is, if you as the same question in 2 different threads there is a likely chance that it will be answered in only one of them.

Close, I also tried to say that when you ask a question that is answered elsewhere, especially earlier in the thread you ask it in you should not expect an answer at all. Further, ToC entries are not major issues as they do not affect gameplay and being childish gets you ignored not helped.

[Velocinox]

Close, I also tried to say that when you ask a question that is answered elsewhere, especially earlier in the thread you ask it in you should not expect an answer at all.

Neither of my posts you linked have an answer to my question. please stop trolling your lies.

[Oberoten]

I suggest you find and read Neil Gaiman's text about entitlement.

- Obe

[Velocinox]

I suggest you find and read Neil Gaiman's text about entitlement.

- Obe
So expecting something you buy to work as intended and be supported is having entitlement issues? I think you have lost perspective.

[Oberoten]

Nonono... But being rude to those who have tried to help you because you don't get what you want out of the answers that fits the bill pretty well.

Heck if you had put the same effort into searching the forums as into trolling you'd probably solved your problem.

[Velocinox]

Nonono... But being rude to those who have tried to help you because you don't get what you want out of the answers that fits the bill pretty well.

Heck if you had put the same effort into searching the forums as into trolling you'd probably solved your problem.

I have not been rude. I posted a request for help 3 months ago and never made an issue about it being ignored. Today I saw someone ask for an opinion on the product and I gave it.

Rude came afterwards from you and rkbrumbelow. first, by not reading what I am saying and just responding emotionally and irrationally to the negative comment on the Rolemaster ruleset, and second by insulting me in what is now being called, 'helping' me, by posting to my unanswered posts and saying, 'you were answered, that's why you got ignored!' which doesn't make any sense.

The answer was not there when I asked my question three months ago, so no amount of forums searching would have helped. I'm not sure why you even bring up a forum search if you are acurately following what is being said here.

[Griogre]

People on these forums are just other fans, mostly. If you or anyone else has an issue to bring to support you should always e-mail [email protected] - otherwise you can't be sure a developer will see the question.

[GunnarGreybeard]

Does it work well? Are there a lot of bugs?

Knowing what you know now, would you still have bought FG and the ruleset! I have run several RMC campaigns off and on for a few months now and have no issues with the price I paid for the Ultimate License and the RMC Ruleset. Ok, there is this one thing . . . Version 1.2 not showing? (https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14279) :D But other than that I have been extremely satisfied.

If you don't have the RMC Ruleset yet, any time you want to connect for an overview/walk-though, just send me a PM and I'll try to coordinate a date and time.

[Elvedui]

I have problems with the lack of automation of the Ruleset. I wish it were more automated. If I spend as much time dragging and dropping as I would spend flipping charts in PnP it sort of defeats the purpose of having an electronic tool. However, I do like the tool and I wish the documentation was better and FGII was a bit easier to use. I think my bigger problems are with FG design rather than the toolset. I have hope that future updates to the RMC ruleset will improve things and provide more options.

[Blackfoot]

I have to admit that I wasn't overly pleased with the RMC ruleset. I purchased it along with my FG bundle because I have been a longtime fan of RM2.
Unfortunately, I find the graphics to be substandard and the functionality to be fairly limited. I much prefer the Savage Worlds, BRP, & d20 Rulesets. RM is a very complex system and there are LOTS of opportunities to automate things... unfortunately these opportunities were only acted upon in a somewhat limited way. If you love RM and play it.. sure it could work for you... I think you might find yourself butting up against it a bit but you will probably find work arounds. You'll also want to replace the graphics ASAP. Ugh.
I hope that they are still developing this product and there are updates coming. I'm still very excited about RMC for FG.. I just wish it worked and looked a bit better.

[RKBrumbelow]

I think the thing one has to remember is that RMC is not RM2nd. RMC does seem to be an attempt to resurrect RM2nd without the copyright issues from the insolvency. Also ICE is investing in Scenegrinder. That being said why did I Choose to buy an Ultimate License and RMC over Scenegrinder? Because I wanted control over my ruleset and I wanted to be able to purchase it outright, not have to pay for it every month along with all of my players.

1 GM 4 players + RMC is 119.83.
5 players on Scenegrinder would be $15 a month AND it is not ready yet.

After 8 months you have broken even and have a system that you can extend yourself. It is a pity that there cannot be an RM2nd but I blame Christopher Tolkien and his infamous greed.

[Blackfoot]

The problems with the ruleset aren't really related to the RM2 vs RMC conflict though... they are more related to the FG implementation (ugh those graphics) and probably the issues with ICE itself. How much development is really going on for this product? With all the turmoil at ICE.. very little I'm sure.
$20 bucks is cheap... it's not the money that's a problem.. the ruleset just needs more work... and some decent art.

[RKBrumbelow]

What graphics are you complaining about? As to development of the product, I have already answered that anything else is supposition.

[Blackfoot]

Uh.. the rolemaster ruleset has terrible graphics. All the icons are just reversals of unclear and uninspired images. If you compare it with the graphics in the Savage Worlds ruleset you will quickly understand what I'm talking about.
Obviously there wasn't a lot of money put into developing the graphics for this product... I'm not surprised really .. it's popularity cannot compete with the D&D products... it is just disappointing. Don't you agree?

[RKBrumbelow]

You do know that you can add your own tokens and images right? If you do not like the Tokjens/ Images download a free set or buy one of the many pay sets and use them. I know few people that use the stock images when there are tens of thousands of images available. Heck if you want grab the SW images and use them.

[Blackfoot]

You do know that you can add your own tokens and images right? If you do not like the Tokjens/ Images download a free set or buy one of the many pay sets and use them. I know few people that use the stock images when there are tens of thousands of images available. Heck if you want grab the SW images and use them.
Umm.. do you have some vested interest in this product?

I'm talking about the buttons and tools in the ruleset.. the background the .. well everything. I don't think there is any of it that was really worth keeping as far as the graphics go. I'm not talking about 'tokens' those aren't ruleset items.. I'm not talking about maps or images used during game play.... I'm talking about the VT images that one sees when one actually plays the game. I was very disappointed that I immediately had to start generating my own graphics because the thing looked so bad... and then... once I got done redoing someone else's work... that the character sheets and combat tracker didn't do more of the complex math and referencing that's involved in playing RM.
Now I didn't start off venting but geez. There are some problems with the ruleset.. or at least you can accept that some folks think there are.

My point was that I would have loved to have loaded up the ruleset for the first time and seen an awesome background and cool buttons and little do-dads all over... I did not. I found ... umm ... half-baked tossed together material. You look at those buttons... they were all created from lame images that were run through a graphic program and 'inverted' to make them.. I dunno... I can't imagine why someone would WANT a graphic to look like those. I didn't buy the product so I could go out and make my own graphics or grab the graphics from another ruleset and try and make them work. I actually hoped they would be really awesome right off the bat. Considering that this is one of the most expensive rulesets that is sold by FG ... doesn't this seem kinda screwy? Again... I understand that this is not as popular as some of the others... thereby increasing the cost to produce and whatnot.. and that the company they are dealing with has been on incredibly shaky ground for the last.. umm geez how many years? ALL I'm saying is that it is disappointing and it would be great if someone were to replace the graphics and work on the ruleset... even if it was a fan.

[RKBrumbelow]

Umm.. do you have some vested interest in this product?

I'm talking about the buttons and tools in the ruleset.. the background the .. well everything. I don't think there is any of it that was really worth keeping as far as the graphics go. I'm not talking about 'tokens' those aren't ruleset items.. I'm not talking about maps or images used during game play.... I'm talking about the VT images that one sees when one actually plays the game. I was very disappointed that I immediately had to start generating my own graphics because the thing looked so bad... and then... once I got done redoing someone else's work... that the character sheets and combat tracker didn't do more of the complex math and referencing that's involved in playing RM.
Now I didn't start off venting but geez. There are some problems with the ruleset.. or at least you can accept that some folks think there are.

My point was that I would have loved to have loaded up the ruleset for the first time and seen an awesome background and cool buttons and little do-dads all over... I did not. I found ... umm ... half-baked tossed together material. You look at those buttons... they were all created from lame images that were run through a graphic program and 'inverted' to make them.. I dunno... I can't imagine why someone would WANT a graphic to look like those. I didn't buy the product so I could go out and make my own graphics or grab the graphics from another ruleset and try and make them work. I actually hoped they would be really awesome right off the bat. Considering that this is one of the most expensive rulesets that is sold by FG ... doesn't this seem kinda screwy? Again... I understand that this is not as popular as some of the others... thereby increasing the cost to produce and whatnot.. and that the company they are dealing with has been on incredibly shaky ground for the last.. umm geez how many years? ALL I'm saying is that it is disappointing and it would be great if someone were to replace the graphics and work on the ruleset... even if it was a fan.

If I had a vested interest in it I would have said so somewhere in my profile and in any post where someone was considering buying.

ICE is certainly not on shaky grounds and has been in good hands for a few years now.

Fans cannot distribute changes to the rulesets if they contain non original material without permission from the publisher. It is that way with any ruleset.

As for the rest, sounds like you just volunteered to create a new skin for RMC. If you need any help, let me know.

[Blackfoot]

Actually.. I didn't.
Really I'd prefer that the FG folks did... it would have been nice if they implemented a little more QC on the product before releasing it.
The fellow asked for opinions about the ruleset.. I merely laid out my honest reactions upon loading the product. (OK... I also included a couple of my hopes for the future)
Again.. I like RM.. would love for them to do more development for this product.

[RKBrumbelow]

Why would FG make a skin for RMC? They did not make the ruleset.

As for the not volunteering, you should take care about complaining some other fan doesn't do something when you could, it makes you appear selfish and lazy.

[Blackfoot]

They are the ones selling it for their platform... weird.

As for me... I'm much too busy to work for free.
Thanks.

[StuartW]

(I wrote a long answer to this thread, but my session timed out. I hate it when that happens and you lose the content. Perhaps another time :))

[RKBrumbelow]

(I wrote a long answer to this thread, but my session timed out. I hate it when that happens and you lose the content. Perhaps another time :))
I have had to get in the habit of hitting copy all before posting longer posts. I am sorry we lost your input.

PS Do you know if anyone in the larger RM community has heard from Russ Miller or Joel C.P. Blair in the last few years? Joel's old university roommate keeps asking me if I know where he is.

[StuartW]

The gist of what I hoped to say is that one shouldn't underestimate either the work involved to produce a complex ruleset or the effort put in by a largely unpaid team. Five people worked on this ruleset for two years (two programmers, an ICE colaborator, the graphics guy and a project manager) and I personally put in about 800 hours...

The graphics are a matter of taste, and ICE had a say in this. Not to everyones' preference, perhaps, but there are literally hundreds of hand-created items of artwork.

As a whole, the main reward for ruleset builders is the sense of satisfaction, especially when good feedback is received. Money doesn't come into it, as I'd be surprised if the contributors shared more than $500 between them. Do the sums;)

i've worked on three other commercial rulesets (CoC, SW and BRP) and a number of decent free ones (WoD and Classic Traveller) and I can honestly say that more effort went into RMC than any of the others. I'm also a little surprised to hear that folks think it doesn't have much automation, as the table resolution code and skill handling is fairly complex.

Anyway, just my 2c!

Stuart

[Velocinox]

Why would FG make a skin for RMC? They did not make the ruleset.

As for the not volunteering, you should take care about complaining some other fan doesn't do something when you could, it makes you appear selfish and lazy.

So what all have you created?

Or do you just sit around all day and call people names?

[GunnarGreybeard]

I've played Rolemaster since the mid 80's. I think the ruleset follows the same theme that their printed materials have always followed. Pencil drawings with no color. Functional but not what one would say is pretty. With the exception of the book covers I don't think I have ever seen any color used. In the ruleset this seems to have translated to the blah orangishy theme. I still have my original Arms Law that looks like the charts were hand written on parchment paper. :D

[Blackfoot]

RM2 & MERP had all those BEAUTIFUL Angus McBride paintings gracing it's covers. They were far from 'blah' they were head and shoulders above everything else in the industry at the time.
I know that RM1 had pretty basic stuff... I am pretty sure some of it came in a plastic bag... my buddy had an early edition of Arms Law... it was definitely not pretty... but in NO WAY was that desirable.
A BIG part of what made RM2 popular was those glorious paintings that gave the such a great feel and mystery to the game. Quality art is really important. Just ask the folks who put out 'Magic the Gathering' and 'Pathfinder'...

Having solid rules and simplicity of play are also important.. but unless you put it in a pretty package.. very few ever see it... or are willing to keep looking at it.

[Velocinox]

There were also those great maps in the MERP series, and some of the early Iron Wind stuff done by Pete Fenlon. He single-handedly created an entire mapping style. Pete is now the CEO at Mayfair, but followed by many CC3 cartographers as 'the map guy'.

[Veldehar]

The visual meat of an adventure is the maps, that's where Pete Fenlon dominated with his MERP work, and Middle Earth is a fabulous setting. Shadow World had some fabulous artwork but the world never quite tripped my trigger. In FG2 the meat is up to the GM to create or get from somewhere.

I always hated the RM covers myself, but I loved the system even with its flaws. That goes for the original Arms Law right through RMSS.

The one place I can say graphics sold me was on the old D&D adventure modules, where the artwork would give you an idea of or feel for the setting. But that was early 80's in grade school, lol. WoTC couldn't spend enough on artwork to get me to buy their product nowadays.

When it comes to buttons in FG2 I could care less what they look like, they could be a plain white tab that just says "Creatures & Treasures" for all I care. Only artwork that matters to me is the maps, and I make them, rarely to my satisfaction BTW! someday I must get better at my maps.

I personally like the RMC rulesets artwork, and I doubt it is possible to ever make me "love" the artwork for a ruleset, lol.

Lee

[dr_venture]

As to the original poster's question, I'd just toss in my 2 cents. I have a very bipolar view of the RoleMaster ruleset. I actually enjoy it's functionality quite a bit - I like the level of drag and drop and the the level of automation in general. Certainly, compared with running the game manually, it's a dream come true!

Sadly, I have never been able to really enjoy this, as I'm one of those guys that has had crashing problems with this ruleset. I can never get through an entire combat, generally, without the program crashing out to the desktop entirely, often losing important combat tracker data to the point where I can't really reproduce the situation the was occurring before the crash. It's just useless to me.

I almost didn't post anything, as the FG folks/community have always been very friendly and supportive, and after quite a long wait, they did actually send me a different ruleset to make up for the money I'd lost in my RM investment. I don't hold a grudge against the product or business because I know the amount of work that goes into a product like this, for a limited audience such as this... and frankly, I'm just grateful such a thing as FG (and the community surrounding it) exists! I don't think anybody's getting particularly rich off of this - I'm sure it's a labor of love.

Anyway, I almost didn't say anything - for me, I was happy to try other rulesets/game systems, and I wound up finding Castles & Crusades (which I absolutely *love*, including it's fantastic FG ruleset - go Sorceror!) but the fact remains that more than a year after reporting this problem, I still can't use the RM ruleset. If you're not interested in using the FG software with other rulesets, you might be disappointed... and I don't think I can *not* say anything. I know that the developers have been spending some cycles on it, and I hear rumors that there may be some kind of reworking of the ruleset on the drawing boards to address the issue, but I don't think it's the kind of thing you can expect until it's officially announced and/or has already been released.

I'd just close by saying that, obviously, a lot of other people are able to use the ruleset, so you aren't likely to experience my problems... just clearing my conscience.

[damned]

what a great quote:


"A ship in harbor is safe, but that is not what ships are built for." - John Shedd

[RKBrumbelow]

Sadly, I have never been able to really enjoy this, as I'm one of those guys that has had crashing problems with this ruleset. I can never get through an entire combat, generally, without the program crashing out to the desktop entirely, often losing important combat tracker data to the point where I can't really reproduce the situation the was occurring before the crash. It's just useless to me.

What version of the ruleset and FG2 are you using?

[dr_venture]

Here's the thread on it, as far as it went:

https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11958

[RKBrumbelow]

I just replied to your thread DV.