What, exactly, is the different between Effects and Modifiers?

[mattcolville]

I find the user guide really hard to parse.

I guess I should first ask...what *are* Effects and Modifiers? What purpose do they serve and how do you use them?

It seems like modifiers are...temporary? Or rather, apply only for "the next roll?"

My ignorance in this area is so great I'm not even sure what questions to ask. Maybe it would be better to ask, when you play the game, when do you use Modifiers and/or effect, why, and how do you apply them?

[Fot5]

Effects are notes that you can drop on a PC or NPC. These notes can be housed on a PC's character sheet, on the effects tab of the FG interface, or directly input into the combat tracker by the GM. Effects can refer to conditions (e.g., running) or modifiers (e.g., ATK: 1). Many of the 4e conditions are ones that FG recognizes and applies appropriate modifiers (e.g., running applies GRANTCA and ATK: -5).

Modifiers are user created and controlled bonuses or penalties that can be entered into the modifier box in the lower left corner of the desktop or can be automatically entered there by selecting an entry from the modifier menu (the content of which is controlled by the GM). Modifiers apply only to a single die roll and are then cleared from the modifier box. So, yes, modifiers are "temporary," as you state above.

[mattcolville]

Ok, that makes sense. Thanks. I hadn't realized that modifiers were more for players but your description clarifies the distinction between the two. I think I'd still need to see them in Actual Play.

So when I tell the players, for instance, "Ok, you succeeded at your Endurance check so you gain a +2 to this next Athletics test," the expectation is that the *player* would then modify his next roll, on his own?

What are the little gold buttons there for?

Is there a list of the syntax and reserved words the 4E ruleset knows? I'm at a point now where I know FG2 can do something, but I don't know how to do it myself and I end up having to go find a Power that does what I want and seeing how FG2 parses the power text.

[mattcolville]

Here's an example of something where my knowledge of the language of effects is lacking.

Heroic Effort, human ability.

Trigger: You miss with an attack or fail a saving throw.; Effect: You gain a +4 racial bonus to the attack roll or the saving throw.

The 4E rules parse this as "ATK: 4 racial; SAVE: 4 racial"

But as far as I can tell, that doesn't do anything. When I double click it, the chat window says the effect is added, but if I then, for instance, make a save, it doesn't add the bonus.

Now I'm doing this just freehand, not in combat. So I don't know if that has any bearing on whether the effects work or not. But my expectation is; I double click the effect, make a save, and get +4 to the roll from the effect.

[Fot5]

So when I tell the players, for instance, "Ok, you succeeded at your Endurance check so you gain a +2 to this next Athletics test," the expectation is that the *player* would then modify his next roll, on his own?

This can be accomplished in one of four ways (at least): (1) The player can enter a "2" in the modifier box in the bottom left just before making the Athletics check roll, (2) the GM can enter something like "Bonus" and "2" in the modifier menu item, and the PC can click on that just before making the roll (note that this is the same as the first option, but I think that the roll will indicate "Bonus" in the chat window results), (3) the GM can place an effect on the PC in the combat tracker that expires after one use that reads something like "SKILL: 2", or (4) the PC can drop an effect on self that reads something like "SKILL: 2". I'm not at my FG computer now, so these may not be exactly correct, but the idea works in all cases, I believe. Of course, for me as a GM, #1 is the easiest to implement. The point is that there are multiple ways in FG to do the same thing.


What are the little gold buttons there for?

Not sure what gold buttons you mean.


Is there a list of the syntax and reserved words the 4E ruleset knows? I'm at a point now where I know FG2 can do something, but I don't know how to do it myself and I end up having to go find a Power that does what I want and seeing how FG2 parses the power text.

See the "Effects" chapter of the user's guide (https://www.fantasygrounds.com/userguide4E/ref_effects_4E.xcp) for a listing of conditions and modifiers that FG recognizes.

[mattcolville]

This can be accomplished in one of four ways (at least): (1) The player can enter a "2" in the modifier box in the bottom left just before making the Athletics check roll, (2) the GM can enter something like "Bonus" and "2" in the modifier menu item, and the PC can click on that just before making the roll (note that this is the same as the first option, but I think that the roll will indicate "Bonus" in the chat window results), (3) the GM can place an effect on the PC in the combat tracker that expires after one use that reads something like "SKILL: 2", or (4) the PC can drop an effect on self that reads something like "SKILL: 2". I'm not at my FG computer now, so these may not be exactly correct, but the idea works in all cases, I believe. Of course, for me as a GM, #1 is the easiest to implement. The point is that there are multiple ways in FG to do the same thing.

No, I get that. I was asking more in terms of; what do people actually do? How do you, personally, use it? It sounds like option 1 is the method of choice.


Not sure what gold buttons you mean.

There are these little gold...dots? Not sure what they are, under the modifier box in the lower left.


See the "Effects" chapter of the user's guide (https://www.fantasygrounds.com/userguide4E/ref_effects_4E.xcp) for a listing of conditions and modifiers that FG recognizes.

Ok, I looked at this before, but I think I didn't yet understand enough about the system to understand what I was reading.

So could I, in the Modifier...tab, or whatever it's called, the button in the upper right that brings up the Modifier window. Can I just create a new modifier and type "Prone" and then drag the modifier onto a token on the battlemat?

Or is that something where I'd want to use an Effect?

[Griogre]

What are the little gold buttons there for?
Do you mean in the mod box down at the bottom left? The gold counts the number of modifiers in the mod stack. There is a limit of six I believe. I have a mod hot keyed as a DM Called CA that gives a +2 bonus. If I press the hot key twice it will put CA in twice and show two gold dots with a total bonus of +4. Likewise I have another hot key called Charge that gives a +1. If I press that hot key then press the CA one I will get two dots and a +3 mod in the mod stack. One last example is I have another hotkey mod called Cover/Conceal that is -2 if I press all three hotkeys once, I will have 3 dots in the mod stack and total mod of +1.

[Fot5]

It sounds like option 1 is the method of choice.

Yes, that's what I do in my game most of the time. However, for the common effects that aren't recognized by FG (like charging), I add these to the modifier menu as a GM and then share them with the PCs. Most of my players, however, use hot keys in the way Griogre described.


So could I, in the Modifier...tab, ... just create a new modifier and type "Prone" and then drag the modifier onto a token on the battlemat? ... Or is that something where I'd want to use an Effect?

You'd want to use prone as an effect because it is recognized by FG. You can add it to the Effects menu (the standing person icon in the upper right corner of the FG desktop) and then drop that effect onto whoever you need, either in the combat tracker or on the battlemap. On the other hand, other modifiers that aren't recognized by FG (like charge and long range attacks) are the ones that I put into the modifiers menu (the +/- icon that is right beside the effects icon). If these are shared with players by the GM, then the players don't necessarily need to assign hot keys to these types of actions.

[mattcolville]

Do you mean in the mod box down at the bottom left? The gold counts the number of modifiers in the mod stack. There is a limit of six I believe. I have a mod hot keyed as a DM Called CA that gives a +2 bonus. If I press the hot key twice it will put CA in twice and show two gold dots with a total bonus of +4. Likewise I have another hot key called Charge that gives a +1. If I press that hot key then press the CA one I will get two dots and a +3 mod in the mod stack. One last example is I have another hotkey mod called Cover/Conceal that is -2 if I press all three hotkeys once, I will have 3 dots in the mod stack and total mod of +1.

Yeah, that's what I'm talking about.

So the purpose of that function is to allow players and GMs to quickly toss a bunch of different mods onto a roll? Makes sense. Actually seems really super useful! Can't wait to try it out!

[Griogre]

If you move the mouse wheel over the mod in the box you can also change the mod by positive or negative amounts as well. It is usually better to encourage your players you use named mods so you can tell what they are doing without having to ask them. You can also click the mod box and type a number. This can be occasionally be useful as you can drag the modifier up into chat. So the players can see a number that they can drag somewhere else - IE XP or Gold.

[Moon Wizard]

Let me summarize how I see them:

Effects
* Effects can only be applied to entities in the combat tracker.
* Effects may apply roll modifiers, however, the modifiers are only applied to specific roll types. (i.e. attacks, saves, etc.)
* Effects can also apply other modifiers, such as defensive modifiers. (i.e. cover, conceal, AC, etc.)
* Effects are always applied to the target of the effect only.
* Methods to add effects:
- Drag from campaign effects list
- Double-click in campaign effects list (applies to active CT entry)
- Drag from PC/NPC power description
- Double-click in PC/NPC power description (applies to PC/NPC targets)
- Drag from PC power effect
- Double-click on PC power effect (applies to PC targets)

Modifiers
* Modifiers are always applied to the next roll.
* Modifiers can only be numbers, though they can have a description.
* Modifier descriptions can be seen by mousing over gold buttons.
* Modifiers can be removed from stack by clicking on the matching gold button.
* Modifier stack can be completely cleared by middle-clicking on it.
* Methods to add modifiers:
- Click on modifier stack, enter a number, and press return
- Mouse wheel on modifier stack
- Drag from campaign modifiers list (onto modifier stack only)
- Double-click on campaign modifiers list
- Type '/mod <number> <description>' in chat entry box

In my game,
* I use modifiers for one-off situational items, such as Charging or Prime Shot.
* I use effects for everything else.
* If I need to make a generic roll with modifier, I usually just type '/die <dice and modifier string> <description>' into the chat entry box.

You do bring up a good point, which is that modifiers and effects do have some crossover in ability. I find that each of them have unique advantages, which is why they both exist; and that their usage depends on your GM or play style.

Cheers,
JPG

[mattcolville]

I do a lot of skill challenges in my game, so the Mod box is good for all the +2 bonuses PCs can accumulate.

I think I understand the distinction, for me it's just a question of getting used to the syntax and when to use each situation. Thanks for the help. :D