VTs and bad gaming

[00Kevin]

Just the other day I was reading some of the chat logs from various VT games and I've noticed something very disturbing.

In many VT games (mostly 4e games) there seem to be players who do nothing but try to follow the plot or advance to the next milestone. This for me is the most pathetic way to play a role-playing game. These players base their characters actions on what they think the module wants them to do and not on what their characters would do. From what I have read thus far there doesn't seem to be a lot of imagination going on in these games.

Could it be that all the scripting is one of the factors contributing to this loss of imagination? From the perspective of the DM it is really nice to be able to script the entire game beforehand, but in the end if all your doing is making the game seem like an interactive storyboard then what is the point? One might as well read a good book instead or worse just open the module and read it all.

With this in mind, I'm wondering what will happen if I run a game at some point that is very different. Will players expect everything to be scripted? Will they just sit there wondering what to do? Will they be wondering why I'm not throwing monsters their way? Of course all this can happen during an in person game too, but are VTs encouraging this?

[ronnke]

I think it comes down to the GM. From my experience, as player and GM, the best games are those that have a "general" plotline that the players find themselves involved in. The GM presents the players with the scene and information and then encourages the players to think and work out the next move, without holding their hand/railroading them to the next story element.

Often players go off on strange tangents which requires the GM to improvise a lot, but this is where the real fun and true "group storytelling" happens. If the players are made to think and contribute, then they are naturally more involved in the story, and this make for a better game.

When I create my adventures within FG I have the important plot significant scenes worked out with regards to map and NPCs. I'm very light on the drag and drop dialog/scene descriptions as I prefer to do this on the fly over voice comms. What I do have written down in the story pages is mostly point form notes for me to remember. I have a generic urban and wilderness encounter map setup and ready to drop in anywhere as needed.

I'm still very new to VT gaming, but my experiences thus far have been good and far from scripted. So I think it ultimately comes down to how the GM runs the game for his/her players and not so much the VT.

[MacLeod]

I'm going to assume your directing this from my game ;) Could be wrong but either way.
As to modules and scripting personally I choose to do this on fg for many reasons the main being it is not easy to wing it using the virtual table tops. If you are looking for a medium to where you can wing it, I hate to tell you unless you have time to do lots and lots of prep work virtual table tops may not be the answer.

Also if you use Voice Comms for RP it makes it easier to flow, I prefer not to because with chat, you have a log to go back and look at what happened, a recording so to speak. In my tabletop games we have the position of log keeper. Usually one person keeps a record of what happens on any given night so that players and even the gm occasionally can look back and reference that for going forward.

I personally run my normal games free form because at a table it's fairly easy to just toss out a quick and dirty map, and some monsters that fit it. However in 4e it becomes a bit more difficult due to the tactical nature, not impossible. When you add in the element of the virtual tabletop I personally find winging it does not work well at all, unless you want to have 4-5 players sitting at a computer waiting for you to open the module find the monsters build the encounter, draw a quick and dirty map, find tokens for said monsters... all in all personally that takes me 20-25 minutes on a VTT to set up an encounter.. others who are more proficient may be faster, in which time players would be sitting there twiddling there thumbs. Also keep in note that a lot of people using VTTS run either modules or adventure paths in which case they are fairly linear. (Enworld's are far better then that of WOTC.. but even so) I know there is a huge LFR community on FantasyGrounds and those are the perfect example of the modules happen this way. Sure you can change things around but no matter what especially if your running an adventure path that isn't fully published you have to stick to the story somewhat if you don't want to have to rewrite the later parts or retcon it. All and all it's based upon how much time a person has to dedicate to the sandbox style vrs the scripted.

And also remember what you call bad gameing may be fun to others! I.e. I call anything whitewolf bad gameing but I know more people then not that enjoy the system. *shrugs*

[ronnke]

I was reading some of the chat logs from various VT games

Have I missed a location that you can read logs that people post?

[Sigurd]

The truth is: Imagine your worst nightmare - that could happen. The other truth is: Imagine complete success - that could happen too.

VT's have a weakness because they haven't been around very long so there are a lot of players and DMs gaining experience. Players and DM's that 'get it right' (whatever that means for them) still 'get it right' though.

[tahl_liadon]

In many VT games (mostly 4e games) there seem to be players who do nothing but try to follow the plot or advance to the next milestone. This for me is the most pathetic way to play a role-playing game.

that's one way of seeing it -- albeit rather harsh.

why does it have to be one specific way to rp? i think your perception may be that you expect 4e to be like previous versions. it is what it is: it is different from previous versions with its own mechanics and rules. it's another system, allowing another way to play.

i like both 4e as well as previous versions (specifically pathfinder "3.75"). to me the game system (any game system) as well as vts are tools. what you (and fellow players and gm) do with it is entirely open and varied. just because one has a set of state-of-the-art cookware in one's kitchen doesn't make one a good cook, or a cook period. on the flipside, i could whip up a superbly delectable meal with the basic set of cookery. all i need is the right spices (imagination) and fresh ingredients (players).

your perception is rather narrow and, possibly, specific to one experience you may have had. you can't possibly be able to come to such definitive conclusion from *reading* "the chat logs from various VT games."

as someone else mentioned, it is not just up to the gm, but also the players as well, to dictate how their game will progress. i am involved in 2 games, one of which has the best gm i've ever known in my many years of rp'ing. we use 4e, but it certainly doesn't not have the "pathetic" quality that you described. we use it as a tool, and fg2 is the best (imo of course) in that it is intuitive, has good user-interface and a lower learning curve for people who are new to vts.

the other game, most of the players as well as the gm is new -- some to 4e, some to fg2 and some to both. one also has to take into consideration that there are newer players to both rp and vt. they *do* need scripted material in order to learn. 4e in particular is successful in that one feels playing a "board game" yet with the (less so intimidating and complex) rules and flavor of general fantasy rp'ing.

again, 4e is not perfect, but it doesn't have to be. everything has room for improvement. it is just that one has to see 4e for what it is: that it's an orange, not an apple, and not continually trying to compare it to earlier versions. if one wants to unleashed one's imagination and throw away the script, i'm sure there are plenty of game systems and campaigns that will offer that. but then again, that's not to say that one can't exercise one's imagination in 4e on fg2 as well.

like the saying goes: when you get lemons, make lemonade. trying to make an apple pie out of it won't work so well, and then saying how bad it is, not tasting like an apple pie :-P