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Aracon
April 24th, 2010, 15:30
For the 20 or so players in my games, we will soon be at a good point to consider some changes to our campaign. A number of complaints have surfaced and I wanted to use this forum as a place to vote and to make the developers aware of the issues/features that we don't like, and how our gang will be voting for moving forward.

Issue #1: Some people don't like how the dice are computed to make 100. 90+10 should be 90, not 100. Rolling a 00 should be 100.

Issue #2: Players can't chat to one another

Issue #3: The mapping tools in FG2 are clunky, at that is being very very nice calling it merely clunky.

Issue#4: Lack of support from Chaosium means few future modules in the pipeline so I will have to upload content myself.

Issue #5: Lack of interest by FG2 to publish maps means I have to scrounge them elsewhere or draw them myself. All of the CoC Keepers could get together and collaboratively work on nice maps but with no support from FG2 or CoC this isn't going to happen on this site.

Issue #6: There is no inventory available to characters. The sheet wont open up to their views so doing inventory is really crappy and time consuming.

Issue #7: Number pad has issues when entering data into the CoC character sheets.

Issue #8: The rules in the ruleset are not easy to modify to add content from the companions. With the lack of support from Chaosium I doubt I would see the companions as a module, even though I have entered all the data in myself that I want to use. However, the players have to sift through dozens of notes to piece together the rules.

Issue #9: The modules sold only include part of the product, not everything. $6 to have someone cut and paste in about 12 pages of material is a steep cost.

Issue #10: USing tokens is unweildy. I loaded tokens and getting scaling right and making them useful is very cumbersome.

There are more complaints so feel free to add them as you vote.

Here is what our campaign is voting on:

1. Remain using the ruleset - you can live with the issues
2. Switch to the BRP ruleset requiring a couple of weeks of my time
3. Switch to another product such as maptools that has other issues, but most of which can be overcome with macros.

Voting begins today and ends 5pm May 1st. Only one vote per player and please put your character name in your first line so I know it is a legit vote.

Thanks
-Keeper

Sigurd
April 24th, 2010, 15:52
Good luck.

Is your experience with the Cthulu ruleset or the BRP? You might try the BRP Ruleset as it is more recent (I haven't used it.)

I think some of your complaints are a wishlist.

There is no telling what module support will be for chaosium stuff at this point. I don't know that Chaosium will put too much energy\money into a proprietary virtual tabletop, let alone supply it with modules. I hope your new choice has better support.

Good luck avoiding map making. I find I am better using graphics software to make maps, and display software (FG) to show them.

The ruleset hasn't been out very long and I'm sure it will improve. As I said, there is now a BRP ruleset as well. Perhaps that has solved some of your issues or will be developed faster. You might ask. Of course you are free to take your $6 and see who you can hire to make a better ruleset.

But, without any snarkyness, good luck.

Sigurd

Aracon
April 24th, 2010, 16:53
Sigurd,

This thread was intended for my players, not a fanboy sitting on the sideline who doesnt know a thing of what he is talking about.

1. I NEVER said the ruleset is $6. An adventure was $6 and amounts to about an hour of cut and past into the module section with no other features added. Clearly you don't have the ruleset or the module for CoC and are completely ignornant and trying to flame what I was attempting to be an open and honest debate about FG2, the CoC ruleset and PROMISE from Doug that all I had to do was buy the pdfs from drivethru RPG and cut and paste and could post up modules for other but after buying the CRAPPY scans have heard nothing back from either Doug of Chaosium.

Doug has promised me multiple times via email and PMs and clearly there is a disconnnect between him and Chaosium... or he just doesn't care about the CoC product line when there is clearly a demand (based upon the 20+ players in my games).

You are again clueless with the "good luck map making" I am (well used to be) a professional cartographer, I dont need good luck. I no longer make a lot of maps due to time constraints but people are interested in my maps and Doug has said there is no interest here.

As for Chaosium putting effort into modules, I was the one offering to input them but cant get a decent pdf scan from the modules that I purchased from drivethru RPG.

Get your facts straight before jumping in and posting and attempting to fanboy my thread.

But without any snarkyness, have a nice day.... as if that comment means anything but snarkyness.

Aracon
April 24th, 2010, 17:02
<Snippets from Doug, not including various emails and other inquiries and stil... NOTHING>

ddavison
Developer Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 442


Re: Call of Cthulhu followup #3

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aracon
Hi, just following up from the maps that I sent you and the inquiries about getting better PDFs from chaosium to continue working on converting Arkham and Secrets of New York. I purchased them both but the copy and paste works very awkward and you were going to check on this about a month ago.

I also sent you some good maps that could be sold as an add on map pack. Please review and comment.

Thanks,
Aracon



I am still waiting on Charlie at Chaosium. He has several things I need him to respond to and this is just one of them.

For the maps, I haven't really decided for sure on those. I would have a hard time justifying a price for them I think that would be well received by the community and be enough to cover the paypal fees and effort of packaging and posting them.

Sigurd
April 24th, 2010, 17:47
good luck.

Aracon
April 24th, 2010, 18:02
I don't need good luck.

Maptools is free and while I thought the features of FG2 were superior, the more our groups play,the more clamor for a change to something less clunky.


Given the lack of response and cumbersome mapping in Fantasy grounds. The long term viability of a for-profit Fantasy Grounds needs good luck, not me.

peterb
April 24th, 2010, 20:16
Forgive me from entering into your "private" thread, but this is a public forum...

I'd like to make some comments to your complaints, as I my self have used the CoC ruleset and also modified it to make it into a fully BRP compatible ruleset (before the official one was released).


Issue #1: Some people don't like how the dice are computed to make 100. 90+10 should be 90, not 100. Rolling a 00 should be 100.

"Feature" of FG. Probably won't change. Never bothered either me or my players.


IIssue #2: Players can't chat to one another

Fixed in the BRP ruleset.


Issue #3: The mapping tools in FG2 are clunky, at that is being very very nice calling it merely clunky.

FG is a character sheet centric product. The design goal is not primarily to be good at doing maps. Maps are best done outside FG.


Issue #6: There is no inventory available to characters. The sheet wont open up to their views so doing inventory is really crappy and time consuming.

I really don't understand this issue. We don't have any problems with the inventory. You can't drag and drop data, no ruleset can. You can add it but you will need separate tables for the inventory and for other items.


Issue #7: Number pad has issues when entering data into the CoC character sheets.

The number pad is reserved for Hot Keys. Don't know if that's mentioned in the manual, if it's not, then it should be.


Issue #8: The rules in the ruleset are not easy to modify to add content from the companions. With the lack of support from Chaosium I doubt I would see the companions as a module, even though I have entered all the data in myself that I want to use. However, the players have to sift through dozens of notes to piece together the rules.

You need to edit the XML files. Or even better create new ones. There are loads of good XML authoring tools on the net - no need for FG to have one as well. The KISS principle and do-one-thing-good and all that.

For the record I've tried MapTools. Loading the CoC framework halted my 2&#189; year old laptop with 2 GB Ram. Compared to FG my impression of MapTools performance is that it's lackluster.

I've also looked into the macro language. It's no match for LUA. Maptools uses a proprietary macro language, that is (IMHO) really clunky to use.

But MapTools do have good map tools. Only note that you cannot (ASFAIK) switch maps. You need scripts to move all tokens from one map to another...

IMHO the CoC ruleset for FG has The best VTT support on the market. Klooges is unmaintained and wont't run on the latest version and the MapTools framework is a performance hog that only offers a fraction of the features of FG.

tenkar
April 25th, 2010, 15:40
When you post publicly, expect comments from the public.

I'm be interested to see your players' comments when they hit this thread... it can be a struggle to get a group to act as one.

Aracon
April 25th, 2010, 17:09
peterb

Yes, this is a thread for my game to be open about various CoC and Chaosium issues. I certaily could move this to a competitor's website, but wanted to be open and honest with FG2 because I have the right to post having purchased a LOT of products and having been misled by Doug that all I had to do was purchase pdfs from drivethru RPG and I could enter the data into FG2 and publish several of the modules. The PDFs were crap and Doug has ignored me repeatedly in resolving this after I spent a lot of money on both FG2 and Chaosium PDFs.

This is bad business practice for a product that charges a lot of money when I can use a free tool that is better in many ways.

(EDIT NOTE: I checked my inbox and saw a message from Doug TWO MONTHS after I have sent message after messge to him: "I don't think we will get much actual support from Chaosium in the way of better PDFs. " .... great job there buddy in getting a timely response and essentially screwing me out of over $50 is crappy scans that you told me that all I had to do was get them, upload them into FG2 and you would make them available for FG2.

If Doug can't get Chaosium support to get a crappy scan replaced with a decent one for uploading into a product then what does this tell me about Chaosiums and FG2's business practice?

""Feature" of FG. Probably won't change. Never bothered either me or my players."

Just because it doesn't bother your group doesn't mean it doesn't bother other people. Quite frankly, I wasn't asking for input from your group, unless they also happen to play in mine.

"Fixed in the BRP ruleset."

Gee that's great, golf clap, but it isn't fixed in the CoC ruleset, hence the purpose of my player polls.


"FG is a character sheet centric product. The design goal is not primarily to be good at doing maps. Maps are best done outside FG."

Huh???!!??? I make maps outside FG and NEVER said that FG should make maps, the mapping tools (MASKING) is clunky. Maptools allows characters to have line of sight, ligthing ranges, etc. in FG2 I have to sit around carving out masked areas and ALL players can see what everyone sees, not just necessarily what they can see from their particular position.

"I really don't understand this issue. We don't have any problems with the inventory. You can't drag and drop data, no ruleset can. You can add it but you will need separate tables for the inventory and for other items."

This could be a user error (very possible) or you don't actually own the CoC ruleset, but I have not seen a way in the CoC ruleset to display inventory costs to the players so they can pull up the inventory and buy things. I have uploaded some of this manually. However, if there is a built-in way for players to see the inventory list, then please explain how you got it to work. Show us.

"The number pad is reserved for Hot Keys. Don't know if that's mentioned in the manual, if it's not, then it should be"

OK thanks for that info. I didn't know that

"You need to edit the XML files. Or even better create new ones. There are loads of good XML authoring tools on the net - no need for FG to have one as well. The KISS principle and do-one-thing-good and all that."

XML is good, but modification of the ruleset is still cumbersome... I'm not saying other programs are any better, but rather it is still cumbersome.

"For the record I've tried MapTools. Loading the CoC framework halted my 2 year old laptop with 2 GB Ram. Compared to FG my impression of MapTools performance is that it's lackluster."

Mine worked no problem on a 3 year old 2GB RAM laptop. Likely a memory setting issue on your part. In FG2 with dual monitors I have issues with FG2 having to resize and size the FG screen because it locks my typing up. This isn't an issue in maptools. Maptools wins here.

"I've also looked into the macro language. It's no match for LUA. Maptools uses a proprietary macro language, that is (IMHO) really clunky to use. "

It's just another language to me, but not everyone has work with decades of programming languages/scripts like applesoft basic, Perl, Pascal, PL/1, Fortran, Assembler, Cobol, Java, VB, yadda yadda. No issue there for me.

"But MapTools do have good map tools. Only note that you cannot (ASFAIK) switch maps. You need scripts to move all tokens from one map to another..."

thats a simple script that is already written. No big deal switching between maps once you learn how.

"IMHO the CoC ruleset for FG has The best VTT support on the market. Klooges is unmaintained and wont't run on the latest version and the MapTools framework is a performance hog that only offers a fraction of the features of FG."

Exactly what features does the CoC ruleset have?
1. Some of the rule book cut and pasted into the ruleset, not edited and at least at this point no way for my players to see inventory.
2. A pretty background image
3. Pretty icons
4. Character generator info (to date) can't ben made inside FG2 nor is that (currently known) an importer for character design
5. No additional content from the rule book, not even decent maps
6. The Crooked Manse module has only part of of the module, and for $6 nothing was added (like nice maps) and it amounts to about 3 hours of play and was just done with cut and paste that I can do in about 15 minutes. now.
7. The other two modules don't appear to be complete products, just an adventure. I'll have to dig into them in more detail.

Lysander
April 25th, 2010, 17:17
I tried to send this to you via PM, but at the time of this sending, your mailbox is full.

You don't know me from a hole in the wall, but...

If you didn't want responses outside of your group, you should send it to your group as a PM, or just email it. I realize it is unsolicited, but it is 'Public'.

As for comments, don't assume the worst. Unsolicited advice is free, use or discard as you see fit. Don't attack the sender, else you alienate others that may be in a position to help.

'Assume best intentions', this forum is generally out here to be helpful...

I hope you resolve your issues, I really do, whether it's here or on another VTT. I've tried the other ones out there, and feel that for a nominal expenditure, FG is the best and has been an excellent investment over the past 3 years. Obviously, YMMV.

I now step off my soap box. Good gaming!

peterb
April 25th, 2010, 17:45
Yes, this is a thread for my game to be open about various CoC and Chaosium issues. I certaily could move this to a competitor's website, but wanted to be open and honest with FG2 ...

If you comment publicly expect public comments...


""Feature" of FG. Probably won't change. Never bothered either me or my players."

Just because it doesn't bother your group doesn't mean it doesn't bother other people. Quite frankly, I wasn't asking for input from your group, unless they also happen to play in mine.

If you comment publicly expect public comments...


"Fixed in the BRP ruleset."

Gee that's great, golf clap, but it isn't fixed in the CoC ruleset, hence the purpose of my player polls.

Frankly, with that attitude of yours we don't need you around here - really we don't.


"FG is a character sheet centric product. The design goal is not primarily to be good at doing maps. Maps are best done outside FG."

Huh???!!??? I make maps outside FG and NEVER said that FG should make maps, the mapping tools (MASKING) is clunky. Maptools allows characters to have line of sight, ligthing ranges, etc. in FG2 I have to sit around carving out masked areas and ALL players can see what everyone sees, not just necessarily what they can see from their particular position.

As I said FG is a character sheet centric product. The design goal is not primarily to be good at doing maps. Map handling is not FG's thing. The competitors obviously puts a lot effort in doing maps well, but again - that's not the thing about FG. FG is not about automating a RPG or supposed to be map centric. And I think that's fairly obvious when you compare the demos of the alternatives...


"I really don't understand this issue. We don't have any problems with the inventory. You can't drag and drop data, no ruleset can. You can add it but you will need separate tables for the inventory and for other items."

This could be a user error (very possible) or you don't actually own the CoC ruleset, but I have not seen a way in the CoC ruleset to display inventory costs to the players so they can pull up the inventory and buy things. I have uploaded some of this manually. However, if there is a built-in way for players to see the inventory list, then please explain how you got it to work. Show us.

You need to share the Utility module. That module is intended for both players and GMs.


"I've also looked into the macro language. It's no match for LUA. Maptools uses a proprietary macro language, that is (IMHO) really clunky to use. "

It's just another language to me, but not everyone has work with decades of programming languages/scripts like applesoft basic, Perl, Pascal, PL/1, Fortran, Assembler, Cobol, Java, VB, yadda yadda. No issue there for me.

And why do you assume that I don't make my assessment from the same kind of experience?



"IMHO the CoC ruleset for FG has The best VTT support on the market. Klooges is unmaintained and wont't run on the latest version and the MapTools framework is a performance hog that only offers a fraction of the features of FG."

Exactly what features does the CoC ruleset have?
1. Some of the rule book cut and pasted into the ruleset, not edited and at least at this point no way for my players to see inventory.
2. A pretty background image
3. Pretty icons
4. Character generator info (to date) can't ben made inside FG2 nor is that (currently known) an importer for character design
5. No additional content from the rule book, not even decent maps
6. The Crooked Manse module has only part of of the module, and for $6 nothing was added (like nice maps) and it amounts to about 3 hours of play and was just done with cut and paste that I can do in about 15 minutes. now.
7. The other two modules don't appear to be complete products, just an adventure. I'll have to dig into them in more detail.

Well, a comment to your point # 4: FG has never to my knowledge been asserted as a character generator.

Good luck with MapTools. I would be surprised if you (and your players) will get the same gaming experience out of it as one can with FG, but if you do - good for you.

Noelle
April 25th, 2010, 22:16
Hey Aracon its me Noelle and I would love to be in your CoC Campaigns please add me to friends

Foen
April 25th, 2010, 22:44
@Aracon

Just tried to reply to your PM, but your mailbox is full so I've included my response below.


What I meant was that because you made the ruleset for Cthulhu, you could re-package that ruleset's modules with the color maps in addition to Chaosium.

I cannot repackage anything, because I work on projects approved by SW and Chaosium. Just because I have done some stuff on CoC doesn't mean I can ignore proper IP/approval processes.


Also, it would be really nice to have the Cthulhu ruleset upgraded with some of the BRP features.... or an easy way to make BRP work for Cthulhu.

BRP *does* work with CoC campaigns. If you edit the CoC campaign.xml file and change "CallOfCthulhu" to "Basic Roleplaying", you should find it loads in BRP (please back up your campaign first). If you also install the Eldritch Horror extension, your new BRP campaign will also be able to access the CoC reference materials and modules. Of course, you need to have a legitimate copy of the CoC ruleset to do that (which you do).

Foen

tenkar
April 26th, 2010, 02:02
Damn, cool info Foen. I might have to give this a shake.