Possible additions to the GURPS ruleset

[ronnke]

I have not looked into the scripting of the rulesets, etc, so this is directed at those that know, more specifically spyke as he developed the GURPS ruleset.

I have played a few games now using FG, and there is one thing that has been a bit of a annoying. It is great that you can drag and drop amounts onto the character HP and it reduces that HP, but when that target has some DR then it basically makes the drag and drop useless.

So my question is, how difficult would it be to make it such then when you drag and drop onto character HP it works as it does now, but if you also drag and drop onto the character DR then it reduces the the HP by the amount less the value of the DR?

[Spyke]

Looks like I'm going to have to keep an eye on this forum! ;)


So my question is, how difficult would it be to make it such then when you drag and drop onto character HP it works as it does now, but if you also drag and drop onto the character DR then it reduces the the HP by the amount less the value of the DR?
Firstly this would fall into the realms of character sheet automation, which, by my understanding is ruled out by the SJG Online Policy, so the short answer is that I don't think we can add it.

The longer answer would be that this would be hard, as the character sheet would need to have a lot more intelligence built in with regard to hit locations and where you layer armour or natural DR. When you drag the damage you'd need to drag it to a particular location.

There's also the issue that the damage rolled is in many cases not the damage inflicted. A lot of attacks in GURPS vary the number of hits taken by the type of damage, depending on how much basic damage penetrates DR.

For example if Dai Blackthorn slashes his foe and rolls 5 cutting damage with his knife, but his foe is wearing DR 1 leather armour, in FG you've got a 5 showing in the chat window. But if you subtract the 1 on dragging to the character sheet the automation would also need to know that the cutting damage was then multiplied by 1.5 rounded down, and that the HPs should be reduced by 6, not 4.

And then there are other complexities, like knockback, which only inflicts damage if nothing penetrates the DR!

Sometimes I'm glad of the Online Policy and the areas of automation that are ruled out!

Spyke

[Spyke]

Please use this thread for any more ideas. I'm sure there are lots of things I ought to be building in to help us!

There are also enhancements to the interface going on in the D&D rulesets that I want to reflect in the GURPS ruleset at some point, particularly Encounter groups to help set up combats.

Spyke

[ronnke]

After my original post, I was trying to think of a simple interface in which you could handle the cut, imp, pi+, etc damage types. The only thing I could come up with was that you had a different box or icon to drag and drop onto.

I do however agree, it might come close to violating the online policy. It is still a grey area as FG is at no point a "computer game". Perharps you/community should submit a formal request to SJG to develop the GURP ruleset. If it remains a free distribution, I am pretty sure they will not have a problem with it. There is no harm in asking.

As for ideas for features to the ruleset:

In the combat tracker have a drop down list that allows the GM to set the PC/NPC posture. ie Standing, crouching, kneeling, crawling, laying down, sitting and flying. These could also be state icons like the "Friend", "Neutral", and "Hostile".
In the combat tracker have a drop down list that allows the GM to set the status of the PC/NPC. ie Normal, mentally stunned, physically stunned, total surprise, unconsious, dead. It will also require a box next to the status field where the GM could record the number of turns the said status is in effect.
In the combat tracker have a drop down list which lets the GM set important PC/NPC actions that might have a persistant effect over the turn. ie Concentrate, Wait, Aim, Evaluate, All Out Attack, All Out Defense.
In the combat tracker have a box in which the GM can record the 'Shock' penalty for a PC/NPC.


Those above features would free the GM from having to record anything on a notepad. You could in essence freeze a game mid combat and take it up again at a later stage. Not to mention it makes the GM's job a hell of a lot easier.

[marcus_egan]

I'm still blown away at how awesome the combat tracker is but the additions above would be amazing.

I have a plan to track important information like this with the existing capability but to have particular fields for it would be great.

[Spyke]

I've just got back from a long haul flight, so I'm a bit too tired to answer this one in full at the moment, but just a quick note to say that I'd really like to see that sort of functionality in the tracker as well. I'd ideally like to be able to get a label to appear on the linked token on the map as well. We used to have no way to code that, though. I'm not sure if recent enhancements to FG will help there.

But having somewhere to set flags at least in the tracker makes sense, even though at the moment only the GM would see them (but I guess that's true even in most face-to-face games). I'll give it some thought.

With regard to the online policy, I think we are getting to the point where I should approach SJG at least to get a better understanding of the parameters of what's allowed. The best way to support this though would be for us to build up a community of active users, so that the approach has some visible weight.

Spyke

[johniba]

In my opinion, this policy from SJG might only lead to people migrating to other generic systems, when using fantasy grounds and other vtt's

I for one have looked into others, even though I like GURPS

I seriously do not see why we could not have it.

[Spyke]

In my opinion, this policy from SJG might only lead to people migrating to other generic systems, when using fantasy grounds and other vtt's

I for one have looked into others, even though I like GURPS

I seriously do not see why we could not have it.
However, we do have the online policy and we need to work within it. Whether SJG have called it right for their business or not is a different matter.

I do believe though that full automation isn't the wonder that it's generally held up to be. I once wrote a full automation of GURPS 3e for GRiP. We played with that for a while until Steve Jackson asked me personally to remove it from distribution as it violated the online policy.

I've also played with my FG ruleset with no automation built in, and the games do not run noticeably less smoothly without it. Just like in a face-to-face game, you get to know your key skill levels, and so roll 3d6 against them without needing to look them up. With full automation you tend to always go off to your character sheet, find the relevant line, then double click on a particular icon.

As I covered above, applying damage in GURPS is best done by the human brain, there are just too many variables to code this reliably.

Where automation really helps is in rolling for damage when you strike with a weapon, but with FG every player can set up their weapons on the hot key bar very easily anyway.

Yes, if the online policy didn't exist we could give the ruleset a lot more GURPS intelligence, but I'm not convinced that it would dramatically improve the ease of play.

What would be wonderful though, and a reason for pushing for an official commerical ruleset, would be reference tables for traits, spells, armour and weapons within FG itself, together with the key tables for the GM.

You can of course, add the latter for your own use using images.

Spyke

[ronnke]

Yes, if the online policy didn't exist we could give the ruleset a lot more GURPS intelligence, but I'm not convinced that it would dramatically improve the ease of play.


I agree. The ruleset as it is now is basically all that you really need to play GURPS over FG. The combat tracker features I listed above would seal the deal for me as a GM.

The only automation which could be handy, is for the character sheet and tracker to recalculate move/dodge based on current HP and FP levels.

After playing a game over the weekend, a feature I would love to see is the proper calculations of scale on maps. So when you for example put a pointer on the map (and the hex grid is present), it calculates the pointer size in hexs and not feet as it does currently. Even better would be the option to set map scale to whatever, and then calculations are made from that.

Eg.
1 hex = 1 yard (a 3 hex pointer will read 3 yards)
1 hex = 10 miles (a 4 hex pointer will read as 40 miles)

[Spyke]

I'll have a think about all these, and where I feel they fall with respect to the online policy.

The scale one may be a request for the FG2 developers, rather than the ruleset. I'm not sure that rulesets have access to the scale label itself. I'll take a look.

Spyke

[Oberoten]

Aaaactually... imagewindow_image.lua contains the scaling and how to calculate/present it.

I think it'd be pretty easy to make what measure is used into a preference setting.

- Obe

[Spyke]

Aaaactually... imagewindow_image.lua contains the scaling and how to calculate/present it.

I think it'd be pretty easy to make what measure is used into a preference setting.

- Obe
OK, thanks Obe, I'll take a look.

This sounds like an ideal candidate for an extension, made more generic, allowing anyone to set a scale for the squares or hexes which is then saved with the image. Even GURPS players use different scales for different maps (e.g. miles rather than yards, or square grids for some purposes).

Spyke

[demonsbane]

(Warning: Long post -a lot of quoted text)

There are many good ideas in this thread. I agree with almost all them.


I do believe though that full automation isn't the wonder that it's generally held up to be. (...) I've also played with my FG ruleset with no automation built in, and the games do not run noticeably less smoothly without it. Just like in a face-to-face game, you get to know your key skill levels, and so roll 3d6 against them without needing to look them up.

This last thing creates, in some senses and degrees, a sort of detachment with the character sheet, and in turn, too, this may create a sort of detachment with the actual character, resulting in a loss of involvement on the part of the player.

I've played in some games with automated VTTs, and I could sense this in some degree, not in myself but in others.


What would be wonderful though, and a reason for pushing for an official commerical ruleset, would be reference tables for traits, spells, armour and weapons within FG itself, together with the key tables for the GM. You can of course, add the latter for your own use using images.

Yeah, I did something like that (scanned tables, charts, rules for use inside FG II)... and it would be great to see such things officially released.

And well, I fully agree with this Spyke is saying: I'm not a big fan of automation in VTT or in rulesets. I don't like players not needing to keep their character's numbers in mind -the most important numbers, at last. And I want too see them more typing than just mouse-clicking. Automation can mean less involvement from the players side, and that's what I don't like.

Wow, this seems a sort of rant. Only trying to make my point clear. (And anyway it's not a hard opinion).

But . . .

Despite what I said just above, I really think some automation is great for the GM, because he needs to track down much more information and NPC stats than the players. Players tracking their own characters is fine in most cases, and you may disagree regarding some calculations as Move/Dodge synchronised with HP in real time, but the GM doesn't gain anything with his head overloaded with many "processes": if he can to annotate them in the combat tracker, and/or if some automation can help him, that would be in benefit of both GM and players, contributing to a better game.


With regard to the online policy, I think we are getting to the point where I should approach SJG at least to get a better understanding of the parameters of what's allowed.

So, I'm in favor of asking what's really allowed by SJG Online Policy. If it were possible to push it towards more permissiveness, that would be great because we could have these things in the GURPS ruleset:



In the combat tracker have a drop down list that allows the GM to set the PC/NPC posture. ie Standing, crouching, kneeling, crawling, laying down, sitting and flying. These could also be state icons like the "Friend", "Neutral", and "Hostile".
In the combat tracker have a drop down list that allows the GM to set the status of the PC/NPC. ie Normal, mentally stunned, physically stunned, total surprise, unconsious, dead. It will also require a box next to the status field where the GM could record the number of turns the said status is in effect.
In the combat tracker have a drop down list which lets the GM set important PC/NPC actions that might have a persistant effect over the turn. ie Concentrate, Wait, Aim, Evaluate, All Out Attack, All Out Defense.
In the combat tracker have a box in which the GM can record the 'Shock' penalty for a PC/NPC.


Another suggestion is only esthetical (to Spyke and Oberoten): I've seen the "metal" skin of the D&D 4 JPG ruleset (now included in Fantasy Grounds II), and I thought about adding it, as an extension, to the GURPS 4e ruleset. Of course it's needed permission of the author, and some tweakings and work but I think it would be a good idea. Not necessarily to do what I'm requesting but to add more and more skins to this ruleset given the generic nature of the GURPS system.


There are also enhancements to the interface going on in the D&D rulesets that I want to reflect in the GURPS ruleset at some point, particularly Encounter groups to help set up combats.

And I was going to suggest to Spyke the addition of "Encounters" in the ruleset. Now I just read he is already planning to implement such feature, and some other things we can see in the 4 JPG ruleset, too!


After playing a game over the weekend, a feature I would love to see is the proper calculations of scale on maps.

That's another good idea. And seemingly, doable!


Aaaactually... imagewindow_image.lua contains the scaling and how to calculate/present it.

[demonsbane]

More ideas of additions to the ruleset:

- A "button" in the character sheet for opening its full-sized picture (not a token).

I'm not sure if FG 2 lets to do something like that.

- "Effects", as with the D&D 4 JPG ruleset.

- A "Party Sheet", like this (https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11911&highlight=party+sheet). So the GM can have many relevant Player Character data in a single box. (I guess this is a lot of work and not an essential feature).

[johniba]

I would not like a full automation. 4E is automated almost to the point of too much... where it actually takes away the joy...

I would love to see in GURPS ruleset some simple automations, for example:

1) If we could have every skill in the sheet to have the dice beside it: we could eithe drag that dice to the shortcuts bellow, double click to roll it, or drag the dice and toss them.

They would automatically have the description of what roll we did

and


2) Being able to drag a value from the chat into a sheet and the damage would be applied.

3) Initiative rolls place people in the combat chart...


I would even forteit 2 and 3, only item 1 would be really nice to have.


No more than this... as I said, too much automation would defeat the purpose of playing paper and pen (or in this case virtual paper and pen)

[Spyke]

I would not like a full automation. 4E is automated almost to the point of too much... where it actually takes away the joy...

I would love to see in GURPS ruleset some simple automations, for example:

1) If we could have every skill in the sheet to have the dice beside it: we could eithe drag that dice to the shortcuts bellow, double click to roll it, or drag the dice and toss them.

They would automatically have the description of what roll we did

and


2) Being able to drag a value from the chat into a sheet and the damage would be applied.

3) Initiative rolls place people in the combat chart...


I would even forteit 2 and 3, only item 1 would be really nice to have.


No more than this... as I said, too much automation would defeat the purpose of playing paper and pen (or in this case virtual paper and pen)

Lots to think about here, and I'll get back to demonsbane's comments when I've got a bit more time.

Johniba, on your points:

1 and 2 would fall foul of the online policy at the moment, as they automate play by building the GURPS rules into the interface, making the character sheet 'more than just a character sheet'.

However, assuming that we were allowed to do this:

1) Adding the dice icon to each skill would require a pretty major rewrite of the way the skill pages work. At the moment the various sections for skills and advantages are lists, with the rows divided into columns. To get the sort of functionality that related the rows to a dice throw I think I'd need to create a page of 'slots' of separate windows for each bar, in the way that the combat tracker works. (We would still want an unlimited rather than fixed number of skills.)

You can set up the hotkeys manually to do this for your common skill rolls, currently, using the /die command, dragged to a hotkey.

2) I covered this above. Calculating the results of the actual hits applied from a damage roll is very complex, and would require a lot more intelligence built into the sheet to allow for targetting damage to specific armour locations, and recording the type of damage on a damage roll (cutting, impaling, etc), together with any other modifiers for the weapon, or relevant traits (Homogenous, etc). At the moment you can already drag a value from the chat to the sheet to apply the damage - it's just that usually the value on the chat isn't the amount of hit points that you want to remove.

3) GURPS doesn't use initiative rolls in this way, although I know some groups do use this as a house rule. GURPS combat order is set from the relative Basic Speed of the combatants. If combatants have the same Basic Speed then the one with the higher DX goes first. Only if the DX is also the same is a die roll made to see who goes first.

The GURPS ruleset combat tracker has a separate column called Seq for setting the sequence, which can be adjusted by rolling the mouse wheel over it, or typing in a figure. This avoids violating the online policy by building in the GURPS rules, but the Basic Speed is shown right next to it to make it as easy as possible to set the order quickly. (If you need the DX you can click on the link button at the right end of the tracker line to pop up the character sheet.)

Spyke

[mr_h]

How much work would it take to add an 'extra' six sided dice to the desktop? Right now you pick up the six sider, throw it, and it rolls 1d6. It'd be nice to be able to pick up a special d6, throw it, and have it automatically roll 3d6 (instead of having to right click, select 3, then throw).

I'd also like a GM Screen Module, I'd even pay for one :b (I have the PDF, but it's a pain to swap back and forth).

[Spyke]

How much work would it take to add an 'extra' six sided dice to the desktop? Right now you pick up the six sider, throw it, and it rolls 1d6. It'd be nice to be able to pick up a special d6, throw it, and have it automatically roll 3d6 (instead of having to right click, select 3, then throw).
I just have 3d6 set up on my F1 hotkey, so that I can roll 3d6 either by clicking that box or by pressing F1.

Just drop 3d6 onto a hotkey box, then, if you want the box to have a label, right click, choose the pen and type 3d6 followed by Enter.

You can also drag the 3d6 out of the box and roll them, which effectively gives you what you want now.

Spyke

[demonsbane]

1 and 2 would fall foul of the online policy at the moment, as they automate play by building the GURPS rules into the interface, making the character sheet 'more than just a character sheet'.

However, assuming that we were allowed to do this (...)

I'm not very aware of SJG Online Policy details, but if it really reaches to that point of prohibition, I can't understand why so many extreme and crippling limitations to the fan base, and actually that would be damaging to the company as it would be perceived as extremely dull and nonsensical. Maybe they are trying to be safe regarding some abuses I can't imagine right now, but they could extend some further or additional partial permissions to some initiatives -as this one! ;) - (*). After all, no one is trying to do a GURPS Computer Game. As far I know the SJG Online Police (https://www.sjgames.com/general/online_policy.html) says:

"Run a game of GURPS, Toon or In Nomine on an online chat system, with a Game Master?
Yes; as we see it now, that's really no different from running a game for your friends in your living room. Anything more than a character creation game aid is a problem, because at that point it's not just like a game in your living room; it's more like a "computer game."

Create a character generator or other game aid?
Yes, as long as you include the appropriate notices. We want to ENCOURAGE our fans to create these programs, share them with the community, and have fun doing it. If you want to charge money for a game aid based on our work, the Online Policy does NOT apply . . . you must either get a license from us, or sell us the game aid for distribution as a regular product, and either way we'll hold you to professional standards. Email [email protected] with a formal proposal letter.

We do, however, have some advice for creators of game aid programs. First, provide documentation. Some simple instructions on how to use the most basic features will be a big help to users. Second, support your creation. We've set up a forum for feedback; plan on being aware and active in these discussions."

By reading this, it doesn't seem so prohibitive to me, but sure I'm not aware of something.

(*) Excepting the possibility they want to discourage any fan creation implying the GURPS system in any way... :confused:

-

Johniba's ideas are good, too. The drawback of all this is... lot of work for Spyke! :D

Concerning mr_h suggestions: I think the six sided dice was one idea already considered at the ruleset's creation. It was dropped because the technical impossibility of implementing it at the moment.

Regarding the GM Screen Module, I have the PDF too and at any rate, because it's impossible to open any PDF within Fantasy Grounds 2, I cropped tables and text fragments (https://forums.sjgames.com/showpost.php?p=672757&postcount=42) for opening them as JPG images while gamemastering with FG 2. But a way for making a basic GURPS framework as you are pointing with the GM Screen Module would be much better for the ruleset. The drawback is I'm sure SJG isn't going to allow it (I would like to be wrong)! :hurt:

[demonsbane]

I just have 3d6 set up on my F1 hotkey, so that I can roll 3d6 either by clicking that box or by pressing F1.

Just drop 3d6 onto a hotkey box, then, if you want the box to have a label, right click, choose the pen and type 3d6 followed by Enter. (...)

That is so basic and useful it can be included in the README file.

Hm, since the ruleset is now included in the updates of the program (BTW, kudos for that, Spyke!) I think it hasn't a README file anymore.

[Spyke]

Anything more than a character creation game aid is a problem, because at that point it's not just like a game in your living room; it's more like a "computer game."
This is the key line in the policy. It makes it very clear that while character generators are OK, anything that automates the character sheet or builds the rules into the interface is not.

I also have my own experience with the GURPS 3e ruleset for GRiP to draw upon. This did exactly in GRiP what people are asking for here for Fantasy Grounds, and Steve Jackson himself emailed me to get it removed from distribution. That was a few years ago now, and things may have changed -back then they wanted to push ahead with their own GURPS Online project - but the fact of the matter is that if we want to develop more automation we need to get it approved by SJG.

All that would take time. My overtures to SJG over GRiP took months, I recall. My preferred approach is to build the ruleset in accordance with the policy and develop its user base. Then when it is seen to be popular we'd have a lot more weight behind a discussion with SJG.

As I've said above, I'm not convinced that automation is necessarily a good thing. Having the GM's screen tables to hand would be useful, but as DB pointed out above, you can do that quickly for yourself by loading images of the tables into FG for your own use.

Spyke

[Spyke]

That is so basic and useful it can be included in the README file.

Hm, since the ruleset is now included in the updates of the program (BTW, kudos for that, Spyke!) I think it hasn't a README file anymore.
The distribution does still have a readme in the zip along with the installer. I could add a section on tips there, but it strikes me that a "GURPS with FG2" tips and tricks document would be useful as a download from my site. I could put a pdf together, or even package it as a module.

I must grab the tips and tricks discussion from Four Ugly Monsters (https://www.fouruglymonsters.com/community/community/groups/viewdiscussion/6-Tips+for+playing+GURPS+using+Fantasy+Grounds?group id=39) before it closes.

Spyke

[Spyke]

Hm, since the ruleset is now included in the updates of the program (BTW, kudos for that, Spyke!)
DB, it's the D&D 4e ruleset that's included in FG2 updates, not GURPS. At least not as far as I'm aware.

Spyke

[demonsbane]

This is the key line in the policy. It makes it very clear that while character generators are OK, anything that automates the character sheet or builds the rules into the interface is not.

You're completely clear on this, Spyke. I hope a new approach to SJG can result in more permissiveness for developing some automation features in the ruleset, despite I don't see them as completely essential and I already posted my view on this -other users are disagreeing, of course, no problem.

Meanwhile I think the current GURPS ruleset can be extended and improved in ways not violating the current permissions, so I agree with you:


My preferred approach is to build the ruleset in accordance with the policy and develop its user base. Then when it is seen to be popular we'd have a lot more weight behind a discussion with SJG.

However you know a drawback of that is so many people wants automation, macros, and that's a reason/excuse for picking other Virtual Tabletops as MapTools even if it has little to do with the Virtual Tabletop experience offered by the FG 2 interface.


The distribution does still have a readme in the zip along with the installer. (...)

That's great. A section of tips is going to be great! However by receiving the ruleset via FG 2 automatic updates I'm failing to find that ZIP file. Sometimes I'm exceptionally absent-minded, though.

[Spyke]

However you know a drawback of that is so many people wants automation, macros, and that's a reason/excuse for picking other Virtual Tabletops as MapTools even if it has little to do with the Virtual Tabletop experience offered by the FG 2 interface.
A pdf showing the Fantasy Grounds experience with GURPS, including the tips and tricks, might go some way to helping there.

The automation with MapTool is a tricky one, as in my opinion they're contravening the online policy there. However, that is a matter for that community and SJG. A blind eye seems to have been turned to it so far, and that can give us some encouragement, but I'd still be uncomfortable building this into my ruleset without clearing it with SJG first.

Spyke

[demonsbane]

Having the GM's screen tables to hand would be useful, but as DB pointed out above, you can do that quickly for yourself by loading images of the tables into FG for your own use.

Since the GM's screen tables are owned by many GURPS GMs and maybe players, a tutorial with pictures around here showing how to crop the tables and charts for introducing them as Fantasy Grounds 2 images -arranged in categories in the images tab- could be nice and very useful to many people. Even if the process is simple enough, it's not a standard procedure for any user because it conveys the use of a graphical application and a way to pick PDF sheets for converting them to graphics, and a familiarity with Fantasy Grounds 2.

So people having purchased and owning the GURPS GM Screen (in paper, for scanning it, or the PDF version) could easily implement it to Fantasy Grounds by 2 following the tutorial, cropping it into useable charts. That can encourage people to try Fantasy Grounds 2 with this ruleset, instead picking other VTTs "because I don't know enough of graphic design for doing such nice things, that unfortunately are out of my reach".

Right now I can't do such tutorial myself, but I already posted some images about what I was doing in this thread (https://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?t=44403). Anyone interested in this can see the screenshots for himself and do it if he wants, or do the tutorial for the community, too... or maybe he come with better ideas!

[mr_h]

You can also drag the 3d6 out of the box and roll them, which effectively gives you what you want now.

Spyke

You know, in all the time that I used FG, I don't think I've ever known that. Hah:)



Regarding the GM Screen Module, I have the PDF too and at any rate, because it's impossible to open any PDF within Fantasy Grounds 2, I cropped tables and text fragments for opening them as JPG images while gamemastering with FG 2. But a way for making a basic GURPS framework as you are pointing with the GM Screen Module would be much better for the ruleset. The drawback is I'm sure SJG isn't going to allow it (I would like to be wrong)!


That's exactly what I want. The combat cards, and GM Screen stuff in there. One of these days I have to sit down and crop the PDF...just need to find the time :(

[demonsbane]

That's exactly what I want. The combat cards, and GM Screen stuff in there. One of these days I have to sit down and crop the PDF...just need to find the time :(

A nicely laid tutorial with a list of the basic charts can be encouraging, and a time saver regarding how to do it and what tables to include ;) .

[mr_h]

A nicely laid tutorial with a list of the basic charts can be encouraging, and a time saver regarding how to do it and what tables to include ;) .

Someone should do that.

Not me...my tutorials tend to be "Do this...then do that...no, that...not that, that....no...move over, I'll do it."

*IT Tech support rubs me the wrong way sometimes....:b*

[ronnke]

The 4e Combat Card could be reproduced into the FG ruleset, as SJG gives express permission to do so. The tables and such that appear in the GM screen might be violating copyright.

Combat Card Statement:
"GURPS Combat Cards is a free game
aid. Permission is granted to photocopy
these pages and duplicate this electronic
file freely, as long as the copyright notice
remains attached."

In my opinion I think it is the combat cards that would get the most benefit from being included as a library in the GURPS ruleset. It is something the "players" would reference often, at least in the beginning.

The GM's screen would be a bonus, but I think it is far from essential. Personally, I find it easier to the GM's screen that I got from e23. I have it printed and laminated, so whenever I need to look up I just grab it.

---

Another feature which could be cool. I've been playing with the maps and pointers scripts lately, and I thought that it would be really cool, if when drawing the arrow pointer, it displayed the Range Penalty. This would be an online policy violation, but it is a feature to consider for it/when we get some approval from SJG.

It might be a good idea to create a sticky'ed thread to have just a list of features with no discussion.

[ronnke]

Since it is permitted, I'm going to produce a libray file for the combat cards. Spyke, I'll send them to you when completed, it you want them.

[mr_h]

Well now, the combat cards would definitely be a nice addition:)

[Spyke]

Since it is permitted, I'm going to produce a libray file for the combat cards. Spyke, I'll send them to you when completed, it you want them.
I'm still mulling over whether this is allowed. The copyright notice refers to the electronic file itself, rather than its content. On the other hand, other people have produced combat maneuver game aids which SJG has been happy to distribute. This may well be OK, depending on how it is done.

Spyke

[ronnke]

I'm still mulling over whether this is allowed. The copyright notice refers to the electronic file itself, rather than its content. On the other hand, other people have produced combat maneuver game aids which SJG has been happy to distribute. This may well be OK, depending on how it is done.

Spyke

I created the mod file and have emailed it to you. SJG is acknowledged as the owner of the library and I also included the copyright notice as per the instructions regarding duplication of the material. Have a look, however I guess the only way to be sure about its distribution is to ask SJG.

[Spyke]

I created the mod file and have emailed it to you. SJG is acknowledged as the owner of the library and I also included the copyright notice as per the instructions regarding duplication of the material. Have a look, however I guess the only way to be sure about its distribution is to ask SJG.
Great, thanks. I'll take a look.

Spyke

[Spyke]

A new ruleset version (with the pointer grid units changes) and the combat cards module are now available for download at www.spyke.me.

Many thanks to Ronnke!

Spyke

[marcus_egan]

wo. bad-***. Thanks Ronnke!

[demonsbane]

A new ruleset version (with the pointer grid units changes) and the combat cards module are now available for download at www.spyke.me.

Thank you Spyke for supporting the FG 2 GURPS ruleset so well!

And thanks to Ronnke, too. Even if I already had the combat cards I'm glad seeing them added to the ruleset, making it even more robust and useful than before.

[demonsbane]

Surely I'm doing something in the wrong way, but after installing the last version of the GURPS ruleset I'm unable to put hex grids on my maps (only square grids are available, even if the hex grid button-option is checked). Anyone is having the same issue?

[Spyke]

Surely I'm doing something in the wrong way, but after installing the last version of the GURPS ruleset I'm unable to put hex grids on my maps (only square grids are available, even if the hex grid button-option is checked). Anyone is having the same issue?
Whoops. Confirmed. It was working earlier. Let me check.

Spyke

[ronnke]

Spyke, I've emailed the hex fix.

Opps, was my bad. :(

[Spyke]

Spyke, I've emailed the hex fix.

Opps, was my bad. :(
It's OK, I found the mistake too. Just fixing the distribution file now.

Spyke

[Spyke]

Surely I'm doing something in the wrong way, but after installing the last version of the GURPS ruleset I'm unable to put hex grids on my maps (only square grids are available, even if the hex grid button-option is checked). Anyone is having the same issue?
This is now fixed, I think. I've uploaded a new file to www.spyke.me.

Note I've not changed the version number for this fix. Please could those who downloaded the ruleset zip earlier please grab it again?

Spyke

[demonsbane]

(...) the combat cards module are now available for download at www.spyke.me.

Truth be said, this new implementation of the combat cards are much more useful in this way (as a library module). Now, players can open and see them by themselves. Before, I had to open them as suggestion or by players' petition and share the images for them being able to see them, which wasn't optimal for saying the least.

I'm ashamed to say I don't know how to make the work Ronnke did with the Combat Cards. I think I would do that with the PNG charts and PDF fragments I implemented to my Fantasy Grounds as images, but not to the Library, limiting in that way its usefulness. Additionally, they look cleaner in this way, although that could be a question of taste. But the improved usability of having things in the Library isn't subjective.

So I'd like to ask any of you knows about any quick, easy and clean tutorial for making these kind of (text) Modules available in the Library?

[demonsbane]

This is now fixed, I think. I've uploaded a new file to www.spyke.me.

Note I've not changed the version number for this fix. Please could those who downloaded the ruleset zip earlier please grab it again?

Sure, it remains as GURPS_4e - v0-95 version.

BTW, the earlier thing with the hex grids is indeed fixed.

[ronnke]

So I'd like to ask any of you knows about any quick, easy and clean tutorial for making these kind of (text) Modules available in the Library?

It involves a knowledge of xml. I imagine player created library files will benefit all GURPS users, so I will go about creating a simple utility that will allow you to easily create the appropriate files.

However, it will be windows only.

[marcus_egan]

just took a gander at these, they look great. I bet they will be super helpful.


and the hex grid worked for me....

[demonsbane]

It involves a knowledge of xml. I imagine player created library files will benefit all GURPS users, so I will go about creating a simple utility that will allow you to easily create the appropriate files.

However, it will be windows only.

I know a bit of html and xml, but anyway that utility you're creating sounds really great! This is going to be much better than my too basic PNG/JPG solution for including GURPS ruleset info inside Fantasy Grounds 2.

And if your utility is simple enough, more and more people is going to be able to make Spyke's GURPS 4e ruleset more substantial by adding personalized mods/libraries to their Fantasy Grounds 2 installations.

I can't wait! ;)

[marcus_egan]

could I edit out all the dice besides the 6 siders?

[Spyke]

could I edit out all the dice besides the 6 siders?
Not at the moment, but that's been requested a few times on the wish list for FG. There's a default built into the program at the moment and if you try to remove the other dice in the code they all just reappear, getting rolled in from one side. You can't even move them off the visible screen area, I think. This is why I separated them physically from the d6 in the GURPS ruleset.

What you can do, of course, is move the other dice somewhere else, say over above the token box, in a big cluster, then right-click on the desktop and save the dice position to keep them out the way,

What I always do when I start FG is go full screen, then right-click and choose to arrange the dice. This moves the row of the dice we don't need down to just above the hotkey bar again, and I find they don't get in the way down there.

Spyke

[marcus_egan]

ok, cool. It's not a big deal, just a random thought I had last night in drunken, fatigue induced meanderings.

[Oberoten]

Would it be possible to redo the measurements so they count a distance / pixel?

- Obe

[Spyke]

Would it be possible to redo the measurements so they count a distance / pixel?

- Obe
You can sort of do this now, but only in multiples of the grid scale.

When you set the grid, note the figure shown for the pixels used for the size of the grid element. Then in your preferences set the Grid Scale to be equal to that figure, and set the Grid Units to be pixels.

Spyke

[Spyke]

OK, I've had some fun today and added a Vehicles sheet to the ruleset, which gives a description tab, a tab for the Basic Set vehicles' stat block, and another tab for the GURPS Spaceships block.

However, to get this to look pretty for a release I need some updated graphics. I can do the desktop icon myself, but I'm not sure I can produce a good minimized icon or title banner for Vehicles. Has anyone got a template for these prepared who could help here?

Spyke

[marcus_egan]

Spyke. you da man.

[ronnke]

OK, I've had some fun today and added a Vehicles sheet to the ruleset, which gives a description tab, a tab for the Basic Set vehicles' stat block, and another tab for the GURPS Spaceships block.

However, to get this to look pretty for a release I need some updated graphics. I can do the desktop icon myself, but I'm not sure I can produce a good minimized icon or title banner for Vehicles. Has anyone got a template for these prepared who could help here?

Spyke

Which graphics do you require exactly. I can have a crack at it.

[Spyke]

Which graphics do you require exactly. I can have a crack at it.
If I keep this as a separate icon on the desktop, I need versions of minimized_item.png and title_items.png that match the default ruleset ones. I also need button and button_down pngs for the Vehicles icon, but they're straightforward as I'm not trying to match the existing ones. I can also do the extra tab titles that are needed.

However, given that we'd also need to have corresponding graphics for the various skins that are available, I'm now thinking that it would be better to add the various vehicles tabs to the Items sheet, so that becomes "Items & Vehicles". This would also save space on the desktop edge for any further extensions (such as an Encounter feature).

Spyke

[ronnke]

It not absolutely vital to add the new graphics to different skins, as if you have a skin that does not support the new graphics, then it will use the default ones that are part of the ruleset.

So everything will still work, just not be as pretty. I think the Items & Vehicles is the better option, but will there be a problem with the difference in stat blocks, or are you thinking different tabs?

FYI, this happens in the "modern blue" skin and the reference window used with the combat cards mod.

[Spyke]

Hmm. The trouble with building it into Items is that when you share an Item the player version doesn't currently have separate tabs, and adding the Vehicle and Spaceships ones might be confusing. Needs a bit more thought.

Spyke

[Spyke]

It not absolutely vital to add the new graphics to different skins, as if you have a skin that does not support the new graphics, then it will use the default ones that are part of the ruleset.
Yes, the graphics drop through but they can jar and look out of place.

Spyke

[Spyke]

So everything will still work, just not be as pretty. I think the Items & Vehicles is the better option, but will there be a problem with the difference in stat blocks, or are you thinking different tabs?
Different tabs. I've got three tabs at the moment, a Main description one, one for Vehicles and one for Spaceships. I'm thinking of adding another for the Traveller spaceship block, as per Interstellar Wars, but that could work just as easily as text in the Main description.

Another reason to combine it with Items is that I wouldn't also have to update the Export routines.

Spyke

[Spyke]

More Hmm. Apart from solving the Sharing issue, the separate Vehicles sheet that I've created also allows you to dock a token, of course, which the Items sheet doesn't currently need. I'm leaning towards sticking with the separate Vehicles sheet and spending the time on the graphics.

(BTW, you can drag the token to the map, but you can't drag a Vehicle to the Combat Tracker. That would require a big extension of the Tracker to include Vehicle stats, and I reasoned that in play it's the PC or NPC that is acting, not the Vehicle itself. If a Vehicle has autonomous weapon systems it would be better to add them as separate NPCs.)

Spyke

[Spyke]

(Apologies for answering my own posts so much, but given that we started this train of thought, I'd better keep going...)

I've gone with combining Items and Vehicles; it's neater. I've added token functionality to the Items, and extended the sharing to include the Vehicle and Spaceship tabs. That's all working, I think. There's an issue with long item descriptions not having a scroller control on the player client, but that's also a problem with the current release. I'll log that to look at separately.

I just need to make some index graphics for the tab selectors now.

Spyke

[ronnke]

The description scroll can be added.

[Spyke]

The description scroll can be added.
I need to set up a frame to hold the string control and get the bounds working correctly, I think. I had the scroller added earlier but couldn't get it to scroll the whole extent of the text, the bounds of which can change on the fly. I just need to take some time to think it through.

Spyke

[Spyke]

OK, changes made and v0.96 uploaded to www.spyke.me. I didn't get the font match quite right on the two new tabs, but it's close enough for now and I think I'll update them all at some point.

I also want to get the scrollers working on all the multiline text boxes, which includes the Reaction Modifiers, Description and Notes fields on the main character sheet as well as the shared Items sheet, so this will take longer than I have time for today, so I'll return to it later.

Spyke

[marcus_egan]

Could I use this vehicles tab you guys are discussing to have stats for horses/mounts? That's how I can see myself using it for my game.

[ronnke]

Could I use this vehicles tab you guys are discussing to have stats for horses/mounts? That's how I can see myself using it for my game.

No because horses do not use vehicle stats.

[Spyke]

Could I use this vehicles tab you guys are discussing to have stats for horses/mounts? That's how I can see myself using it for my game.
You can use the Personalities sheet for creatures such as horses as well as people and monsters. The stat block there has the fields used for Bestiary entries. Your horse can then also be used in the combat tracker (it will have its own action, biting, kicking, etc).

The vehicles tab in Items could be used for a mechanised mount like a motorbike, but as I mentioned earlier you can't drag this to the tracker. It's the rider who takes any combat actions.

Both sheets can be shared with the players, though they are not currently allowed to edit the fields.

Spyke

[ronnke]

OK, changes made and v0.96 uploaded to www.spyke.me. I didn't get the font match quite right on the two new tabs, but it's close enough for now and I think I'll update them all at some point.

I also want to get the scrollers working on all the multiline text boxes, which includes the Reaction Modifiers, Description and Notes fields on the main character sheet as well as the shared Items sheet, so this will take longer than I have time for today, so I'll return to it later.

Spyke

Nice work.

I was just thinking that because spaceships is not a "standard" thing, would it be better to have the spaceships addition as an extention instead of part of the ruleset. This way you could have a spaceships extention, traveller spaceships extension, etc, and you would only load the extension you are using. Just a thought.

[Spyke]

Nice work.

I was just thinking that because spaceships is not a "standard" thing, would it be better to have the spaceships addition as an extention instead of part of the ruleset. This way you could have a spaceships extention, traveller spaceships extension, etc, and you would only load the extension you are using. Just a thought.
Yes, I've been thinking along similar lines, as you don't really want the Spaceship tab there during most Fantasy games, for example. The way I'm planning to tackle this is to add a Preference for the following:

Use GURPS Spaceships [ ] GURPS Traveller [ ] Neither

This would either hide the Spaceships tab completely, or show it with the relevant stat block as required.

I'm also thinking of adding a checkbox to the Vehicles and Spaceships tabs to allow you to prevent sharing selectively for each item, as there may be cases where you don't want the full stats revealed to the players.

Spyke

[marcus_egan]

ok cool. that's how i have been doing it. I'm sure I can find a use for a vehicle eventually ; )

As a player though, I'm very excited about this. I think extensions are a good idea, large space-craft, high performance space craft, motorbikes, clown cars, etc...

[ronnke]

Again more brainstorming.

As an extension you could also have a new icon appear on the sidebar for the different spaceship extensions.

[Spyke]

Again more brainstorming.

As an extension you could also have a new icon appear on the sidebar for the different spaceship extensions.
The reason I went with an update to the ruleset itself was that I wanted to group the spaceships with the other vehicles. If I use an extension for the spaceships it would either have to be on a separate desktop icon all of its own or I would need to overwrite the whole Item (or Vehicle) code, which would give me two separate pieces of code to keep in sync as time goes by.

There's also a precedent in the ruleset for the toggle idea: you can toggle between Spells and Powers on the PC character sheet depending on what's used in your game.

What do other people think? Is it worth pulling Spaceships out of the ruleset so that it can be loaded separately, with its own icon, or do you like the idea that it's in there if needed and in due course I'll make it so you can toggle it on or off?

If I pull it out I would probably have to change the database source node, so we should decide pretty soon before people start loading up too much data!

Spyke

[ronnke]

After some thought, I think that because the type of spaceships you use is variable it should be an extension with its own sidebar icon. It can use the same window frame as the items, this way no new windows need to be added to the ruleset. It could even use the same icons as an item if we wanted to keep it simple.

Vehicles however as they are standard they should remain as you have them. It would be nice if we could implement the items in a similar way to how it is done in the 4E ruleset.

So you have just the 2 tabs:
Main - Which has the name of the item, brief description, and the "when identified"

Stats - This will have all the specific information about the item. At the top you have radio options for weapon, armour, vehicle, other. Depending on your selection, the fields in the window change. (see the current implementation of items in 4E for what I mean)

But I think spaceships should be a seperate extension, and then we work on doing a GURPS Spaceships version, and a Traveller version.

[Spyke]

After some thought, I think that because the type of spaceships you use is variable it should be an extension with its own sidebar icon. It can use the same window frame as the items, this way no new windows need to be added to the ruleset. It could even use the same icons as an item if we wanted to keep it simple.

Vehicles however as they are standard they should remain as you have them. It would be nice if we could implement the items in a similar way to how it is done in the 4E ruleset.

So you have just the 2 tabs:
Main - Which has the name of the item, brief description, and the "when identified"

Stats - This will have all the specific information about the item. At the top you have radio options for weapon, armour, vehicle, other. Depending on your selection, the fields in the window change. (see the current implementation of items in 4E for what I mean)

But I think spaceships should be a seperate extension, and then we work on doing a GURPS Spaceships version, and a Traveller version.

Bear in mind that a spaceship created in GURPS Spaceships also requires a normal vehicle stat block, so the vehicle page would need to be repeated in a separate extension, and you can't simply select a single page of stats with radio buttons (I did consider this approach as per D&D 4e).

There's also a need for the two tabs in Items that we have now: Main and Shared. You need the Main description for the detailed information that you as GM require, which could include things that your players should not know, even if they have identified the item. The Shared tab then has the identified and unidentified players' view, which is useful whether the item is a chalice, a speedboat or a pirate jumpship.

You've also mentioned weapons and armour. What's the general view on that? The way the ruleset is written at the moment would prevent you dragging and dropping items like these onto the character sheet, so is there any benefit to having separate Items stat blocks for them?

Spyke

[ronnke]

If the radio button options I mentioned above were expanded to:
Melee Weapon, Ranged Weapon, Vehicle, Other

Then you could setup a drag and drop into the character sheet for melee, ranged and normal inventory items. The basic stats like weight, cost, etc will automaticall be completed in the character sheet.

[ronnke]

The way the ruleset is written at the moment would prevent you dragging and dropping items like these onto the character sheet, so is there any benefit to having separate Items stat blocks for them?

It would be a nice feature, but that same information could simply be entered as text within the description.

Would there be alot of modification to the ruleset to enable drag n drop of weapons and inventory?

[Spyke]

If the radio button options I mentioned above were expanded to:
Melee Weapon, Ranged Weapon, Vehicle, Other

Then you could setup a drag and drop into the character sheet for melee, ranged and normal inventory items. The basic stats like weight, cost, etc will automaticall be completed in the character sheet.
Implementing drag and drop isn't straightforward, as the Inventory is built as a set of windowlists (so that it could grow to accomodate as many items as you want while typing them in). I'd have to go dig to see if we could convert a set of fields into a windowlist item and also identify where in the list it was about to be dropped.

Need some time!

Spyke

[ronnke]

Bear in mind that a spaceship created in GURPS Spaceships also requires a normal vehicle stat block, so the vehicle page would need to be repeated in a separate extension, and you can't simply select a single page of stats with radio buttons (I did consider this approach as per D&D 4e)

Yes, they do have the same stat block, but I think it should still be seperate and the stat block repeated for the seperate spaceship item.

Perhaps enable drag n drop ability to drag a spaceship stat block into the "Items" stat block. Just as a though, in the item information maybe have a link field where you can link the spaceship item. So click the link in the item, and it opens up the spaceship.

*hope that makes sense. :)

[Spyke]

Yes, they do have the same stat block, but I think it should still be seperate and the stat block repeated for the seperate spaceship item.

Perhaps enable drag n drop ability to drag a spaceship stat block into the "Items" stat block. Just as a though, in the item information maybe have a link field where you can link the spaceship item. So click the link in the item, and it opens up the spaceship.

*hope that makes sense. :)
It made sense ;)

I must admit, though, at the moment I still think it's simpler leaving it as part of the main ruleset. But I do see the need to make it possible to switch it on and off as required.

I'm off out now to get some fresh air! Too much staring at the screen today. :)

Spyke

[ronnke]

I'd have to go dig to see if we could convert a set of fields into a windowlist item and also identify where in the list it was about to be dropped.

Need some time!

I'll do some digging myself and have a bit of a play.

[BaseDeltaZero]

I'd definently like to see the combat tracker refined to keep track of the current round, as well as the ability to retain HP/FP for PCs over multiple sessions...

[saithan]

while I understand the second part, I do not understand the first part of your request.

[BaseDeltaZero]

Sorry...

Currently, the combat tracker never updates its round count. It's always stuck at 0.

If those two things were added, this utility would be completely awesome...

[saithan]

just need to check ... are you using the latest version? if not get it from ...
https://enhanced.vlexofree.com/

Next are you properly advancing the tracker by using the advance turn button?
2940

to advance the rounds without going through the turns you can also click "Next Round" button opposite side as the next turn button

[YAKO SOMEDAKY]

There is automation, but I added the Resistances Damage modifiers in and ask for jogasores use it before rolling damage.
As for the damage modifier that I use impalement bending, contusion not use anything, but alas the problem is revealed in the damage of cut: (