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phloog
March 26th, 2010, 22:02
At the risk of offending folks here, but based on the large number of killer issues in the SW ruleset (no snap, movement distance issues, etc.)...I have to ask:

1) Is there an expected date for the new/fixed version?

and (the part that may offend someone, and if so I'm sorry, but)

2) Are there full-time resources working on this, or is this something that has been outsourced to someone who is doing this as sort of a labor of love when they find a few stray minutes?

If the answers are "No", and "That second one", it would be nice to know so I can move to checking here quarterly/monthly instead of weekly, and so I don't buy any more DToA modules until after the ruleset is solid again.

It just sort of sounded like, from some of the official responses, this has been handed off to someone, and no one's heard anything back yet and nothing is known.

Thanks,
JT

joshuha
March 26th, 2010, 23:59
At the risk of offending folks here, but based on the large number of killer issues in the SW ruleset (no snap, movement distance issues, etc.)...I have to ask:

1) Is there an expected date for the new/fixed version?

and (the part that may offend someone, and if so I'm sorry, but)

2) Are there full-time resources working on this, or is this something that has been outsourced to someone who is doing this as sort of a labor of love when they find a few stray minutes?

If the answers are "No", and "That second one", it would be nice to know so I can move to checking here quarterly/monthly instead of weekly, and so I don't buy any more DToA modules until after the ruleset is solid again.

It just sort of sounded like, from some of the official responses, this has been handed off to someone, and no one's heard anything back yet and nothing is known.

Thanks,
JT


I am pretty sure its going to be no and option 2. I know you feel very strongly about those issues and I don't doubt they are very personal to you but Fantasy Grounds and its associated rulesets are still a very much niche market and don't support any one full time yet.

What I do hope is that Doug at some point exposes the Mantis bug tracker or whatever system they are currently using to track the various issues and enhancements on the boards so that expectations can be given. Because while you feel the Savage Worlds ruleset issues are enough to not use FG for awhile its possible those bug fixes are being superseded by other bugs the developers think may affect more people than the Savage World ruleset issues. However, until the user community can see some sort of issue/enhancement tracker or at the very least a roadmap we are all guessing except when a developer comments on a specific issue.

Griogre
March 27th, 2010, 00:45
Just so you know it's 2) for everything FG so don't feel SW is being singled out. Josh alluded to it, - but *no one* works on anything to do with FG full time and that includes Smiteworks. Every developer that works on FG has a day job that they live on.

kalmarjan
March 27th, 2010, 06:57
I would like to add that it would be helpful to know what it is that is game-breaking for you with the SW ruleset. I know that the snap to grid was mentioned, but the only other thing I can find from you via a search is the maximize window and grid color issues. Those are not singular to the Savage Worlds ruleset.

I think that if you want change, it is best to let us know what it is that is bothering you.

I will say something about Doug - I am happy and tickled pink that he has taken over the Smite Works portfolio. I have been with FG since Version 1, and I can say that as a developer, Doug is MILES better at communicating with the community. Bring up the issue(s) you may have, and we will see them fixed.
Of course that is with the caveat of a little time...

Indarien
March 27th, 2010, 15:42
Well, I currently run two SW campaigns and play in a third. This represents a group of 15-20 players.

The ONLY problem any of us have with the SW ruleset right now is a quirky little bug with the Notice skill. Specifically, if the Notice skill ends up being the rightmost skill on the second row of the skills tab (or the sixth skill in alphabetical order on the skills sheet) it becomes completely unusable. You cannot click it, cannot select it, nothing, it is dead-space on the character sheet. If it is any skill other than Notice, there are no problems.

None of us consider this "game breaking" since we just add it a second time (so it is not in that spot) and it works just fine.

There are a few things we would like added, but I think I can speak for the entire group of us that we are all pretty happy with how it works.

The one thing that we would like that I have not seen listed anywhere is the ability to drag things from the "Notes" to a character sheet. For instance, we have several Edges in our Tour of Darkness campaign that the GM has defined as Notes, it would be nice to be able to drag them straight from the Notes to the Edges tab. But that would sort of be an extra heap of sprinkles on top of some really good ice cream.

Sigurd
March 27th, 2010, 18:30
Phloog That is simply not a fair comment.

You write like the ruleset is unusable and that complaints about it are a regular posting on the board.

I can understand that you might be frustrated with it not doing something you'd like. I can understand if you'd like a feature that doesn't exist. I can understand if you're just generally having a crappy day. Still, I think its unfair to wrap issues up as "a large number of killer issues" with so little constructive detail.

I think Doug has been much more open with the state, goals, and activities of Smiteworks than the previous owners. He deserves a constructive list. Don't forget that the Savage Worlds ruleset has changed hands too. Other people find it quite usable.

Much of FG's progress is based on enthusiasm. Summary judgments will reduce momentum, not get anything done faster.


Sigurd

phloog
March 30th, 2010, 05:06
My apologies - - I figured my apology in advance would be insufficient.

Also - note that when I say 'killer issues' I need to specify that this is FOR ME - many of these things are probably fine for most, and that's great.

FG is a niche product, but I'm a niche of a niche...I only use FG in an actual Face to Face game - I'm currently using it to manage NPCs, Metacreator to manage PCs (since FG doesn't do that to the degree MC does), and I've been using Klooge for mapping - - so when I say killer issues, I mean the issues that stop me from using FG for mapping. I run my game with a laptop and a second monitor - and the player's data is on that second monitor.

The big ones are the lack of snap, and bigger than that is the fact that the distance reading is a function of the distance measured. Another fairly large issue is that the move distance is shown to PCs in the main ruleset and not the DM.

So bearing in mind that I'm not looking to use FG to manage PCs, and only hoping to expand it to my displayed map, this is why I'm thwarted - because the SW ruleset is missing the features needed to allow me to use FG for BOTH NPC/Rolls and mapping.

I think the funniest/oddest thing in all this is that I tried using the free Maptools, and it's actually better in many ways than Klooge. So my plan is still to drop Klooge - I'll just use Maptool for my mapping - if I'm forced to use multiple products might as well use one my players can install for free.

If I might take offense, though, I really dislike responses that say that negativity or complaints will harm development - - you're basically saying that because I am not happy, I could harm enthusiasm and I'll not get the fixes I'd like. I can only say, if that's how it works then don't charge for the product - send me back my cash and instead I'll post regular praise and compliments. I understand they don't have a full development team, but if they expect to be seen as a serious business then they can't fall back on this kind of thing. Either it's a business, in which case deal with the complaints, or it's not. If the price tag for FG and the SW had said "It costs this much in MONEY, and you'll also need to maintain enthusiasm and not complain too much if it doesn't work very well", I might have made a different decision.

And there, I guess I've offended again...but I've listed my main gripes - - and that is that the biggest flaws in the SW ruleset are the things I need most.

Of course, since the answer is in fact "No" and "That second one", I know to not bother everyone so frequently.

phloog
March 30th, 2010, 05:11
Divorcing the issues from my full post above:

1) Snap doesn't work

2) Distances aren't revealed to DM (perhaps a feature, not a bug)

3) Distance measures vanish off the edge due to them being multiplied by the distance measured

4) Inserting links to images in the modules doesn't work at all (you place a link to a map, and you get some other image in the directory)

So I can't snap to grid, can effectively see or measure distances, and cannot integrate images into the descriptions. Those are the biggies. Now color that by the fact that my players are PRESENT, with character sheets, and most of what we need FG for is mapping.

Doswelk
March 31st, 2010, 18:49
The ONLY problem any of us have with the SW ruleset right now is a quirky little bug with the Notice skill. Specifically, if the Notice skill ends up being the rightmost skill on the second row of the skills tab (or the sixth skill in alphabetical order on the skills sheet) it becomes completely unusable. You cannot click it, cannot select it, nothing, it is dead-space on the character sheet. If it is any skill other than Notice, there are no problems.

Is the skill to the left a Knowledge skill?

Something I forgot to put in my youtube video is that very problem with skills, the problem well well be not the Notice skill but I suspect the skill to it's left has a very long string attached to it.

What happens is (it seems) is that the text although is hidden the actual skill entry is covering the dice for the Notice skill!

What I do for Knowledge is shorten it to 'K: <description>' this usually resolves the issue.


The one thing that we would like that I have not seen listed anywhere is the ability to drag things from the "Notes" to a character sheet. For instance, we have several Edges in our Tour of Darkness campaign that the GM has defined as Notes, it would be nice to be able to drag them straight from the Notes to the Edges tab.

The problem is down to the fact that Notes are <string> or <formatted text> entries and Edges/Hidrances are <sw_referencefeat> entirs in the XML.

What this really means is that if your GM creates a module with the edges in (get him to contact me if he needs help for this) he can create the edges/hindrances so they can be dragged to the character sheet.

Hope this helps.

Thanks for the reminder about the skill I'll start compiling a list of "quirks" I need to address in a video later!

Doswelk
March 31st, 2010, 18:58
1) Snap doesn't work

This was due to a change in the code made by Smiteworks (not Smiteworks USA the former Finnish programmers), this broke a number of rule sets, this is being fixed in the updated SW ruleset (not doing the fixing so I do not know how long it will take)


2) Distances aren't revealed to DM (perhaps a feature, not a bug)

I have to admit I do not understand this query, this is probably me, but if I have a grid on the map and I have locked the tokens I can see the distances players move (albeit with the problem you list below sometimes).

If I want to measure distance between two objects I use the draw arrow pointer this shows me the distance (assuming there is a grid).


3) Distance measures vanish off the edge due to them being multiplied by the distance measured

This bug is recent and can be annoying I agree, I think it might be linked to the size of the grid squares but not tested yet.


4) Inserting links to images in the modules doesn't work at all (you place a link to a map, and you get some other image in the directory)

Not tried this one myself but I suspect it may be caused by unloading modules and re-opening them in a different order?

phloog
April 1st, 2010, 14:24
I have to admit I do not understand this query, this is probably me, but if I have a grid on the map and I have locked the tokens I can see the distances players move (albeit with the problem you list below sometimes).

If I want to measure distance between two objects I use the draw arrow pointer this shows me the distance (assuming there is a grid).


Yes, you can see the distances the PLAYERS move...IF they move themselves.

From an earlier response from those in the know at FG;

'If you turn on Lock tokens then when the players lay out a path the distance will be measured. This does not work for the GM. "

That's the issue for me - rather than drawing a bunch of arrows, when I as the DM decide to move a player's token, I want to see the distances moved.

Remember my niche of the niche - using FG to display tactical maps and images to the players - I'm moving ALL the tokens.

The fact that this doesn't work for the DM is IMO quite silly (it should work for ANY moved token moved by anyone who is allowed to move that token) and basically kills the functionality for me - - it doesn't matter to me that it works for players, because my players in my F2F game never move their own tokens.

Klooge actually does this well and also takes this to another level, if you stop for a short time and draw some more, if you don't wait too long it continues the measure - so you can measure a move around a corner or obstacle and get an accurate total move. FG should copy this approach.

Hopefully they'll find the time to fix this ruleset. I'm not really as upset about it as I was, because I've found other utilities. The only bad news for FG would be if one of these other options that beats FG for mapping in my game introduces functions that replicate what FG DOES actually do well (rolls, management of NPC sheets) - it's basically down to the first application to successfully do it all will win for me, and I can stop having 3-4 applications to get the best of everything. It would be nice if FG could do that.

Tenian
April 1st, 2010, 14:59
Can you hold down the CTRL key when dragging the token as a host? In most rulesets this simulates moving locked tokens as a host.

It's not the default because most of the time it's annoying as a DM to map the move and then approve it...as opposed to just moving the token wherever you want.

phloog
April 1st, 2010, 17:50
Can you hold down the CTRL key when dragging the token as a host? In most rulesets this simulates moving locked tokens as a host.

It's not the default because most of the time it's annoying as a DM to map the move and then approve it...as opposed to just moving the token wherever you want.

I will try this when I get home, but as you note that would mean I have to "Accept Move" to keep that move, right?

This is why I wish that they would take the approach that Klooge takes - ANY token move displays the distance, with that neat 'keep adding to the distance if you click for movement around that building or whatever'.

With Klooge all moves are accepted and the distance shown, and if you decide you don't like it you can Undo.

Even without the slick ability to auto-add-up multiple segments of movement, the default should be 'accept this move' with the option to reverse it - or at least have it work that way for the GM.

umbralux
April 3rd, 2010, 19:39
This was due to a change in the code made by Smiteworks (not Smiteworks USA the former Finnish programmers), this broke a number of rule sets, this is being fixed in the updated SW ruleset (not doing the fixing so I do not know how long it will take)I'm not sure this is true, it certainly doesn't appear to be true for the snap to grid function. It works fine in the SWv2 rule set today...yet doesn't in SWv3.

Some things which used to work in v2 and appear to be lost in v3: snap to grid
links
multiple character sheets per playerI don't know how much is due to changes in FG2 and how much is due to changes in the SW rule set, but I must admit it's extremely irritating to lose functionality with an 'upgrade'. I'm actually considering reverting to the v2 rule set.

Doswelk
April 4th, 2010, 13:32
Some things which used to work in v2 and appear to be lost in v3:
snap to grid
links
multiple character sheets per player
Snap to grid is now "fixed" (thanks to phantomwhale & umbralux):

1) make a backup copy of imagewindow_image.lua
2) find function onTokenSnap(token, x, y)
3) remove the '--' to restore snap to grid so the code looks like below:

function onTokenSnap(token, x, y)
if hasGrid() then
return getClosestSnapPoint(x, y);
else
return x, y;
end
end
Links:

Do you mean clicking on one link actually opens another (when there is a long list of links)?

If so I have found a "fix" for that was well (attached image just a quick hack top test but it worked!):

1) back up button_openwindow.png
2) using graphics software to make a bigger icon (I doubled it to 26) in my test but you may be ale to go smaller.

Multiple characters:

That one still eludes me.

phloog
April 4th, 2010, 18:44
This seems to resolve the snap issue - thanks...wondering why something that seems so trivial isn't just released to the world rather than waiting for a full new version - unless this breaks something else - - I'll guess I'll see.

I'm concerned about your use of quotes around "fixed" - - should I be worried?

Doswelk
April 4th, 2010, 19:08
I'm concerned about your use of quotes around "fixed" - - should I be worried?

The quotes mean that it's an unofficial fix. :D

phloog
April 5th, 2010, 04:18
The quotes mean that it's an unofficial fix. :D

Well, that's fine by me - - if it's a choice between unofficial fixes now that might actually allow me to use the thing, and waiting for that magic day when the next official version is released, I'll take the unofficial stuff. It might be different if they were making any sounds like it would be done in the next couple of weeks/months, but it's all question marks, so I'll take whatever hacks and tweaks I can find.

umbralux
April 9th, 2010, 01:45
Multiple characters:

That one still eludes me.Damn, I've been burning a lot of free time comparing v2 and v3 lua scripts looking for that one.

Doswelk
April 9th, 2010, 11:38
Damn, I've been burning a lot of free time comparing v2 and v3 lua scripts looking for that one.
The elusive ASilva and I spent a couple of hours "discussing" (google chat) that very problem in feburary.

The only conslusion we could come to at the time and I've not spoken to him since (work blocked google chat!), was that as the lua and xml code seemed to match up..

Below is a paraphrase of the conversation:


When a player logs in, they get the list of characters as well as the option to create one.

If the player looks at the character list again though, something is wrong... they see an "Unnamed" character and the character they selected.

The assumption here is that I created "Player A" and "Player B" characters on the server:

The player can release the character, but they are not able to reactivate it
so, if the player releases, they have to exit the server and re-connect to attach to a character again.

The fact that the "Unnamed" character is coming up suggests that the character list is being corrupted for the player but when they re-start FGII it works again, it works on the initial load, but after that it is corrupt

I suspect the corruption is what is preventing the character swapping

one other thing, on the radial menu, "Activate" doesn't even come up as an option not sure if it's related, a different problem, or a red herring, the LUA all looks identical.


The complete lack of anything noticeable was the main reason for the delay up to that point...

The only real difference between version 2 and 3 was somewhere a long the line a bunch of the utility_*.xml files were lumped into just utility.xml and it's beyond me to parse.

phloog
June 27th, 2010, 05:03
still no word on a new official version, perhaps incorporating the fixes in the extensions?

umbralux
June 28th, 2010, 04:37
still no word on a new official version, perhaps incorporating the fixes in the extensions?...don't think we're there yet. :) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=809Z3tpRVLU&feature=related)