Has anyone seen this?

[prale]

Has anyone seen or played "The Holding Heart" it's for sale over at En World. https://enworld.rpgnow.com/index.php?cPath=4539 its a complete adventure, Its advertised as being for Fantasy grounds II and for 4th edition rules.

[tenkar]

I reviewed a FG2 4e module from the same publisher in Sept 08 - A Small Task For Appleview (https://enworld.rpgnow.com/product_info.php?cPath=4539&products_id=57870)

The same person who gave the original a 5 star review gave this one another 5 star review.

BTW, she didn't think to highly of me:

"God, i can't believe that other reviewer only giving this adventure module 2 stars. I'm in a all-female playing group in NYC. The five of us played the entire game. We're all IT people, so we at least have some brains."

I won't be wasting my money to review this one ;)

[prale]

Ok, thanks for the responce, I am wanting to play 4e but, its laborious for me to input everything. I am looking for something to run for me and my friends. I wont be takin a chance on this however. again thanks for the heads up.

[Andugus]

Prale, you could try using White Haired Man products available in the Fantasy Grounds Store. We choose not to risk publishing for 4th edition due to the existing legal storm cloud. However, our pdf clearly separates game mechanics. Though I've not tried it I have heard there are parsing programs available that could run through the pdf and create a 4th edition module.

If I were to do that, I'd strip the pdf of the game mechanic information (I'd recommend buying the 3.5/OGL version for your unique needs). Then just type in the personalities and items which are dependent upon game mechanics.

No matter what you do good luck with your game group and Fantasy Grounds II. Good to have you here.

[tenkar]

White Haired Man does put out good products. I gave them a 4 outa 5. On value alone they are probably 5 outa 5... fairly priced which makes the risk of a product you may or may not use less hurtful.

As Andugus states, a good parsing program to get the descriptions and fluff easily used in FG2 gives you 90% of what you need to run the mod with any rule system.

[prale]

Thanks for the response, I have looked at your products with great interest. The only reason I am more interested in 4e is because its the system that we learned. I used to play D&D many many years ago, but about a year ago I decided to play again and me and my friends got and learned 4e. Well then we decided to try Fantasy grounds. We really like it. We ran about half of Keep of the Shadowfell. The problem is I am the only DM, and after a couple of months of trying to make this work I gave up. Just dont have the time to transfer all this information into FG. Now I have looked at the Parcers and for me its just to complicated. I have a wife kids job ect ect, not alot of time for this., As I understand white Haired Man modules, you have to use savage worlds system, While I would love to try that, I can't get enough interest in it.

[VenomousFiligree]

While I would love to try that, I can't get enough interest in it.
I would be more than happy to give your group a demo if we can sort out times? I'm GMT and evenings work best for me.

[Andugus]

As I understand white Haired Man modules, you have to use savage worlds system, While I would love to try that, I can't get enough interest in it.

White Haired Man also delivers the modules in Open Game License or version 3.5 of D&D, formerly known as D20. I wish we could obtain a license for 4th edition, however it is not yet possible for electronic product distribution under the current 4th edition licensing. Maybe there will come a day when Mr. Davison manages to break the ice at WoTC that would allow us to publish a 4th edition module. First there would need to be an official 4th edition ruleset I would think. While there is a 4th edition ruleset in development it lacks the licensing support of WoTC at this time. It is one thing to convert material for it on a private/personal basis. Quite another as a company. Think lawsuit.

Thank you for looking into it and best of luck as a GM with your game group. I am sure you will find a way to prevail.

[Doswelk]

I wish we could obtain a license for 4th edition, however it is not yet possible for electronic product distribution under the current 4th edition licensing.

I have all your SW products (and my party have enjoyed playing them!), but given what you have "said" about electronic distribution of D&D 4e makes me wonder if these people are playing with fire releasing a 4e FGII module then?

@prale - In my opinion SW is a very neat and slick system but the best thing about it i find is that I can easily convert any other RPG product quickly to use it, so I would think you could go the other way!

[Andugus]

I will share my opinion about the license WoTC offers for 4th edition.

There are two sections that relate to products for Fantasy Grounds. Here is the first section:


3. Licensed Products. The license granted in Section 4 is for use solely in connection with
Licensee’s publication, distribution, and sale of roleplaying games and roleplaying game supplements that
contain the Licensed Materials and are published in a hardcover or soft-cover printed book format or in a
single-download electronic book format (such as .pdf), and accessory products to the foregoing roleplaying
games and roleplaying game supplements that are not otherwise listed as excluded in Section 5.5
(“Licensed Products”).

Based on this, it looks like printing a softcover, hardcover, or single download PDF is acceptable. Then we are instructed that any supplements to those must not be excluded in section 5.5 of the license as follows:


5.5 Licensed Products. This License applies solely to Licensed Products as defined in
Section 3 and to the specified uses set forth in Section 4. For the avoidance of doubt, and by way of
example only, no Licensed Product will (a) include web sites, interactive products, miniatures, or character
creators; (b) describe a process for creating a character or applying the effects of experience to a character;
(c) use the terms “Core Rules” or “Core Rulebook” or variations thereof on its cover or title, in self-reference
or in advertising or marketing thereof; (d) refer to any artwork, imagery or other depiction contained in a
Core Rulebook; (e) reprint any material contained in a Core Rulebook except as explicitly provided in
Section 4; or (f) be incorporated into another product that is itself not a Licensed Product (such as, by way
of example only, a magazine or book compilation).

The part that concerns me here is the use of the term "interactive" AND under part (f) be incorporated into another product that is itself not a Licensed Product. I think "interactive" could be addressed easily enough in a ruleset that did not automate processes. But, Fantasy Grounds II is not licensed for 4th edition. I don't think there is any way around this point unless Mr. Davison manages to secure the 4th edition license for Fantasy Grounds II.

There is also an FAQ document that sheds some additional light here:


Q: Section 5.5 states that interactive products are not available under the license.
What does this mean?
A: Interactive products include, but are not limited to, video games, software, or other
programs that offer rules adjudication. Products that accept input from human players or
their agents, and use rules to resolve the success or failure of those inputs, and return the
indication of the results of those inputs to the users are considered interactive products.
This includes random determinations of hit points, ability scores, dice rolls and the like.
These types of products are not available under the GSL.

So it would appear that software that produces dice rolls is specifically forbidden.

Please understand I am not a lawyer. I am reading the license and applying my understanding to what I am reading. Moreover, I am an owner of White Haired Man and would rather adhere to the spirit of the law as opposed to parsing it up to suit my needs. It seems clear to me that publishing a pdf, or book is fine. But, great care has been spent in the license to exclude Fantasy Grounds II without coming out and saying the name of the software. I'd rather spend my energy making content for everyone to enjoy than fighting a battle with Hasbro's lawyers.

DW Publications may interpret the GSL in a way that allows for publishing for FGII. I think it comes down to how you interpret the license.

Now back to Prale. Here I have been suggesting that you buy White Haired Man 3.5 D&D product and use for your 4th edition game. While I think that is possible, I think there is an easy way for you to test the waters with the parser. You could take any existing 4th edition PDF product and try it out yourself. Sure it might take a bit of practice and time but good things are worth some time. If you do it at the front end before you start a game group you won't feel pressured to get it done by any specific date. Here is a link to get you started:

Four Ugly Monsters 4th Edition FG Development group (https://www.fouruglymonsters.com/community/community/groups/viewgroup/49-DD+4th+Edition+FG+Development)

[drahkar]

Am I losing my mind? I could have sworn I made a post in here earlier...

[Foen]

I think there are a couple of points to note on 4e products, although I am not really qualified to understand the legal position (being a UK accountant, not a US lawyer):

Andugus seems right about the restrictions in the GSL, which prevent 4e rulesets/modules being distributed, but that only applies to material released under the GSL. The JPG_4e ruleset is not released under the GSL, so it cannot be bound by it (nor can it benefit from being marketed as a licensed WotC product).
I haven't downloaded The Holding Heart, but it may not be licensed under the GSL either. In which case there is no problem with them selling it provided they do not use any otherwise-restricted (copyright) material.

It would also be possible to publish something with WotC copyright material, *not* under the GSL, provided a separate licensing agreement was reached with WotC: just because the GSL prohibits something, doesn't mean to say a private agreement couldn't be reached with WotC. Unfortunately, this would require their active involvement whereas the GSL is much more passive.

Just my 2c

Foen

[prale]

I really appreciate the responses, I have decided to try the parser again.

[Griogre]

Prale also don't feel obligated to input everything into FG. It’s a good way to learn FG’s features, but it's important to know that *if* you use voice then the only items you really need to input into FG for an adventure are Monsters and Maps because you can just read anything else from either a paper or digital copy of the module. Data input is no fun so make sure you don’t do anymore than you need to.

Maps you can just drop in the image folder of the campaign. While it takes much longer to input monsters, but monsters are also the most commonly re-used items across adventures by DMs. That's makes taking the time to at least parse a library module of monsters you are likely to use in other adventures is worth the time it takes to build such a module.