Both Battlegrounds and FG2?

[adminwheel3]

Has anyone tried to use systems in tandem before, and if so what was your experience?

I very much like the interface of FG2, but the mapping functions just arn't as advanced as other VTTs. I was considering trying to run them in tandem, but that would almost require all of my players to have a dual monitor setup.

Just rolling options around in my head.

[Moon Wizard]

What mapping features do you think are missing from FG?

Just curious, since I haven't used Battlegrounds before.

Cheers,
JPG

[adminwheel3]

Dynamic Fog of war would be nice which I didn't have to manually erase and which takes into account light sources and vision types.

I also like having the option of showing the states of figures when you click on them (dazed, stunned, etc) although this has been nicely included in the 4e ruleset, but without a visual representation on the map.

And this really isn't a mapping function but rather a feature of Battlegrounds, but I really like the idea of being able to stream sound to my players. Music can be very useful for setting a mood, particularly if you're running a game with a darker tone.

Also, I would very much like a different way of moving around the maps. The method FG2 uses is certainly learnable, but it's not intuitive. If I have a map open and click and drag, I expect the perspective to move and not the entire window.

In any event, all of these things are secondary to what FG2 brings to the (virtual) table which is why I picked it. I am going for a more RP feel and that's what I get out of it. But RP generally goes out the window when combat rolls around so if something else could be used at that time with a reasonable amount of effort I want to give it a try.

[Phystus]

I think my first concern would be bandwidth... Most home broadband has a much lower upload speed than download speed, so it might become a problem.

~P

[unerwünscht]

What is it exactly that you find missing from Battlegrounds? Is it just the interactive 3D dice? If so, I believe someone is working on that right now.

[adminwheel3]

I can't really say what I find missing from Battlegrounds since I've been approaching this from a FG2 perspective - I'm a bit more familiar with the FG2 interface - Especially the 4e ruleset that moon_wizard worked up.

I like the tabletop, roleplaying-centric, pen and paper feel of FG2 evokes, and things like D20 pro or Battlegrounds seem to be more oriented towards dungeon crawls or wargames.

That being said, it would be nice to be able to stream music. <sigh>

I guess I could burn a CD and tell my players "This is the big fight, play track 8 now". Meh.

[joshuha]

I can't really say what I find missing from Battlegrounds since I've been approaching this from a FG2 perspective - I'm a bit more familiar with the FG2 interface - Especially the 4e ruleset that moon_wizard worked up.

I like the tabletop, roleplaying-centric, pen and paper feel of FG2 evokes, and things like D20 pro or Battlegrounds seem to be more oriented towards dungeon crawls or wargames.

That being said, it would be nice to be able to stream music. <sigh>

I guess I could burn a CD and tell my players "This is the big fight, play track 8 now". Meh.

For sounds you could host a Ventrilo/Teamspeak server and bind your recording input to WAV. Then just play the sound files if not on push-to-talk and stream audio that way.

I think someone had an idea earlier of making a program that could read inputs from Fantasy Grounds and sync up and play audio on client PCs. I have ideas on how to do this but alas, not enough time.

[Fenloh]

A friend of mine has written but not finished a Virtual Tabletop for a specific German RPG (Das Schwarze Auge, aka. The Dark Eye.. very great RPG btw) during his time when he was studying. He has implemented an easy way to play Music during a gameplay. I only know, that it was quite easy to implement, but i do not know how he has done it. I know though, that if you use that feature, there will not be any problem with any copyrights, since nothing is being saved on client Computer. If you make a Copy of Soundtracks and give them Away it will be piracy and you may be punished for that. The TS/Ventrillo version should work and a Private Shoutcast or Icecast Server should also do the Trick, but it is a b.... to set up, and you still dont know if the players get the sound or not. If one of the Devs is interessted, just contact me and I will ask him to get in touch. Maybe you can work something out.

Fenloh

[Bidmaron]

I am the guy working on playing sound, but I am in the process of moving from Maine to Virginia Beach. Just unloaded the UHaul today. It'll be several days before I can get back to work on the project, and even then, I intend to get a player forum working over FG2 before the sound part, so it will probably be a couple of months before I tackle the sound piece.

[Elvedui]

FG2 is great for RP but i agree the mapping function leaves alot to be desired and is a bit more difficult to pick up. While I have heard the argument that FG2 is really just for RP...most people would also like the graphic/mapping elements to go along with FG2. If you are playing pnp you typically have some maps/minatures, etc.

[Valarian]

If you are playing pnp you typically have some maps/minatures, etc.
Not really. I rarely use maps and miniatures in a face to face game. There's usually some bottle tops to use in an emergency, but only if really needed. I find it's more fun to describe the conflict and let the players imagine the scene.

[Tokuriku]

Just wanted to say that "The Dark Eye" is THE game!!!
For me at least ;)

[Elvedui]

While I realize that some people don't use miniatures we are in the 21st century and FGII will go nowhere if it sticks to running games more like the 70s. I think a large portion of the RPG gamer market use miniatures to some degree when running a campaign and the younger market is also more visually oriented. I have been gaming for 30+years and adding a more robust mapping function to keep track of players and their surroundings is very attractive to my group who are all veteran gamers. Of course, it would be helfpul if there were a more robust manual for this program as well. A few video tutorials don't really cut it and I need something more robust to read. Lastly, can you run this in a local host mode for people sitting in the same room so that say the GM can project the overall player map on one large screen for all to see vice having to have each person have to have their own laptop?

[Spyke]

While I realize that some people don't use miniatures we are in the 21st century and FGII will go nowhere if it sticks to running games more like the 70s.I disagree on two counts. First the tabletop feel of FG2 is its major selling point over its competition (and you can certainly run miniature-based games with it if you want to), and second, in the 21st century there are plenty of innovative games being developed that rely more on story-telling than on moving figures around a map.


Of course, it would be helfpul if there were a more robust manual for this program as well.This comes up a lot, but I found the online manual to be more than sufficient to learn how the program works, and once the basic right-click radial mechanic is revealed actually using it to play games was easy. Yes, there are some nifty features that are hard to discover, but not knowing about them really doesn't stand in the way of learning to use the software to play games.


Lastly, can you run this in a local host mode for people sitting in the same room so that say the GM can project the overall player map on one large screen for all to see vice having to have each person have to have their own laptop?To do this with just one machine is possible, but would require having a graphics card setup that allowed you to split the desktop onto two screens (so that you could project a player view but keep any GM info hidden), but with one separate player machine with a Lite licence for the player view, yes, this is easy.

Spyke

[Elvedui]

Well I love the ability to automate the games in FG2, but I disagree about the 21st century. The reason RPG are not big sellers compared to xbox type games is because people are more visual and that is the trend. Storytelling is an essential part of RPG, but visuals are an important part of storytelling. The popularity of movies and video games with visual elements supports that. Anyway, it would not take away from FG2 by adding a more graphical and user friendly interface.

You are wrong again regarding the online manual. It is terrible and doesn't cover much. It is written by someone who is more of a programmer. It assumes a certain level of knowledge related to many issues. I am trying to use FG2 for my group and it has a steep learning curve because of the lack of a comprehensive manual. It is a bit humorous that even the videos which are good gloss over details assuming you should know those details.

I have multiple monitors, but again it isn't clear how I can use my full fG2 system to display a player view and keep the GM view on my private screen. Again, the instructions are lacking. I guess i will use another computer to handle the players.

[Spyke]

Well I love the ability to automate the games in FG2, but I disagree about the 21st century. The reason RPG are not big sellers compared to xbox type games is because people are more visual and that is the trend. Storytelling is an essential part of RPG, but visuals are an important part of storytelling. The popularity of movies and video games with visual elements supports that. Anyway, it would not take away from FG2 by adding a more graphical and user friendly interface.Could you give us an idea of what you think the look and feel of FG2 should be? FG2's interface is nothing if not 'graphical' - it's by far the most graphical of all the VTs. And I find it very user-friendly.

Visuals are a very important part of storytelling, I agree, and FG2 already allows you to supply static images. My guess (but please correct me if I'm wrong) is that you'd like to see animation and 3D graphics. I find that these can be useful if used sparingly (e.g. video clips to set the scene) but detract from the roleplaying if they make up the main interface in a game. Oblivion and Morrowind are great, but nowhere near as immersive as the images woven by a good GM directly in the players' heads.

Also, when using graphics you are restricting the imagery to what's available. That's great for D&D, as it has a particular look and feel and there's a lot of material out there, but much harder for other games in other genres, even other fantasy genres (and there is so much more to fantasy than the various D&D takes on it). This means that the GM has to do a lot more work and may still not get what his imagination has conjured up.

By sticking with the tabletop feel, with FG2 this isn't an issue. It can all happen in the mind, which is the canvas for the very best role-play sessions.

Providing tools that allow users who do want more graphic elements is fine, I've got no problem with that, but not if they're provided at the expense of the tabletop feel, which seems to be what you're suggesting when you say you think FG2 needs a more 21st century and user-friendly interface.


You are wrong again regarding the online manual.Neither of us are wrong. I didn't say that the manual was great, I said that I found it more than sufficient to learn to use the software.

When you say FG2 has a steep learning curve, where is your group having difficulty? I've played in many games with people using the software for the first time and I can't remember anyone ever not getting their head round it during their first session. Are you using a particularly complex ruleset? If so, perhaps it's the ruleset that needs a good manual, not the software itself.


I have multiple monitors, but again it isn't clear how I can use my full fG2 system to display a player view and keep the GM view on my private screen. Again, the instructions are lacking. I guess i will use another computer to handle the players.Well, this isn't something that I would expect to be in the manual as few people are lucky enough to have multiple monitors. You'll need to start your campaign on your main machine and then start a second FG2 session on the same machine, logging in as a player to the internal IP address. Run both sessions of FG2 windowed rather than full screen. You should be able to drag the player session to your second monitor leaving the GM session on your own screen.

Spyke

[Phystus]

I'd think a second machine would be better than one machine and multiple monitors, simply because it would give the players their own mouse and keyboard. It would require a second license, however.

~P

[Starfleet]

Gonna weigh in on this one and i've not posted for a while.

I've ran D&D both Tabletop and using FG2.. D&D = the most played RPG in this house, however I will agree that some of the mapping 'features' could use an upgrade.

I am not about to ask for a 3D tabletop to run my maps on (as much as I wish we had it and this is the reason I am shitty at WOTC but that's another story), BUT I would like to see several features added to the existing map/miniture region.. And while a bunch of you will say that mini's are not required sorry I agree with the others, Dungeons and Dragons, 99% of the D20 Products, Traveller (Both original and MGP), Cyberpunk 2020, Battletech RPG, etc etc etc all are EASIER to run combat with when you have a map.. Plus it's a lot easier to go the room looks like this 'map' durring a combat then trying to type out 400 lines worth of discription and then keep track on if joe and bob have moved from point a to point b.

Now the features i'd like to see in FG's map area:

1. Support for HEX based grids. Not every system uses a Square Grid.
2. Dynamic Lighting/Fog of War capability. The option to tie a source to x and x and have it automatically alpha.. This actually shouldn't be THAT hard, it's just as I said.. the current map uses an Alpha map to work out what it is meant to show (a simple black and white map), all that is needed is to be able to tie a circle or cone or whatever to a set token and have it move with said token.. Thus moving the Alpha.
3. More variety in the drawing Tools.. Don't know about you but I typically use a whiteboard type board when i'm running a game at home and that means I have the option to draw with just about anything that is erasable from it.
4. The option to set the 'mapping' board up as a wargame table, FGII can be used for a lot more then the traditional RP games if the features supported it.. Let me set the table to X: meters, by Y: meters then set a token scale at 1:1. Add in a protractor like tool and a messuring tape and poof you have 99% of everything that a WAR GAME requires when running miniture combat.

Doesn't matter that some people seem to think that 'visual' is or isn't important, your looking at audiances who have grown up now playing computer games, watching movies... playing boardgames.. and some like it and some don't..

BIG thing though is that users are asking for the features and honestly the more features a program has the MORE people are likely to use it. Go look at WOTC's forums you'll see FGII comes up often.

[TFWoods3]

Dynamic Lighting/Fog of War capability <---my #1 wish

Basic: A simple attachment to the token that gives a radius of vision(that can be adjusted depending on light source) and that can be rotated with an indicator of what direction the character is looking (facing). This does not erase the mask unless you have level 3 advancement below.

Level 2: Adding an effect that is a simple gradient overlay that looks like light; maybe add an option for color.

Level 3: Adding another layer mask that we can draw and specify what objects block light (and also what is cover). So lights casting would not reveal anything beyond that point when erasing the fog of war mask.

[Moon Wizard]

The lighting and fog of war topic have been extensively debated in the past.
https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9526

JPG

[Griogre]

2. Dynamic Lighting/Fog of War capability. The option to tie a source to x and x and have it automatically alpha.. This actually shouldn't be THAT hard, it's just as I said.. the current map uses an Alpha map to work out what it is meant to show (a simple black and white map), all that is needed is to be able to tie a circle or cone or whatever to a set token and have it move with said token.. Thus moving the Alpha.

Actually this *is* really hard unless you don't care if the light shines through everything. To fix that you either need to mark everything on a map that light can't shine through, very anoying and far more work than most would do. Another possibilty would be the light only shines in unmasked areas and only unmasked areas in the light's radius are actually unmasked. Not perfect but workable. Something like this would also allow this to work on low end computers. VTT that do have this feature often don't have it used just because it there is usually someone in the group who's computer doesn't have the horsepower to run this type of thing - and it doesn't work to have this for only some in the group.

[Elvedui]

The previous comments that I wanted animation were incorrect. I am with some of the others who would like a more robust mapping function. I don't want animation, but I do want more flexibility in how much map shows up in my window and the ability to have fog of war and the ability to calculate ranges and put them into the combat tracker, etc.

It is absolutely easier to run a game when you have a map and every player that I have ever played with likes to be able to see the maps when available.

Obviously there is a steep learning curve and i wish i didn't have to search through the boards to find an answer. That type of learning curve turns off potential gamers/customers.

[demonsbane]

(...) all are EASIER to run combat with when you have a map.. Plus it's a lot easier to go the room looks like this 'map' durring a combat then trying to type out 400 lines worth of discription and then keep track on if joe and bob have moved from point a to point b.

Now the features i'd like to see in FG's map area:

1. Support for HEX based grids. Not every system uses a Square Grid.
2. Dynamic Lighting/Fog of War capability. The option to tie a source to x and x and have it automatically alpha.. This actually shouldn't be THAT hard, it's just as I said.. the current map uses an Alpha map to work out what it is meant to show (a simple black and white map), all that is needed is to be able to tie a circle or cone or whatever to a set token and have it move with said token.. Thus moving the Alpha. (...)
Oh yeah, and token facing support for easying things with portrait style round tokens...

[Valarian]

Oh yeah, and token facing support for easying things with portrait style round tokens...
Easily done, add a little red triangle to your tokens to indicate "forwards" facing.

[demonsbane]

Easily done, add a little red triangle to your tokens to indicate "forwards" facing.
Well, that seems to be the "best" sub-standard solution right now...

(This was discussed in some threads, as this (https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2688&page=4) and this (https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4611).)