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unerwŁnscht
April 7th, 2009, 23:55
Aww, uner, no love for the nWoD? That's a shame. I hated the old WoD, and it was a long time before I gave the new one a try, but when I did, I felt like I found gamer-mecca.

What did you dislike, just for my own curiosity's sake?

I read all the rules for the first edition of Exalted and loved it, although I couldn't get my D&D group to switch at that time. The second edition, though, seems to have reached even greater heights. I can't wait to try and play it.

In order to not hijack the other thread I moved this conversation here.

Don't get me wrong, I really like the rule system for the NWoD. It is much cleaner and easier to use than the old system. I just don't like the restructuring of the clans, and I wish they would add some of the old settings back in.... cough Wraith cough.

PneumaPilot
April 8th, 2009, 00:22
Do you mean the Vampire clans? I suppose that would make someone who loved the old game mad, but I never liked the way the old clans worked. When I read the rulebook and tried to make a character that was in line with the way the game world was presented, I thought that there was no real way that my Gangrel would ever get along with any other vampire. My group tried to play twice and just couldn't get a group of characters to 'gel' because we were all trying to be faithful to the source material.

I think that the new covenants correct this problem for the most part. But, then again, the whole game world just encourages more cooperation between vampires. Still, at the end of the day, Vampire: The Requiem is my least favorite of the new WoD games. I hate politics...

And who knows, Wraith may come back...

What I actually like about the new game is the base rulebook. Making everything about horror was an awesome move. I love playing a game of weakling humans who practically all die in a one-shot horror-movie type game. I also really love the new Hunter: The Vigil, since that is the former idea with tougher characters and a longer chronicle.

I look forward to one day trying Mage, Werewolf, and Changeling, since all of those games have some dang cool thematic features.

As far as the system mechanics go, I have to say that they are something resembling zen perfection. Once you get the basic ideas, everything flows as smooth as butter. I can't believe this thing was out since '04 and it took me 4 years to find it!

unerwŁnscht
April 8th, 2009, 00:33
I do like the human aspect of the base rules. I tried to run a 13th Precinct game at one point, but my players didnt like the new rules and the game didnt make it 20 minutes past character creation. Who knows maybe one of these days I will find the time and a group of players to give it a shot again.

As for the old clans, there was no reason for them to get along in the traditional sense, however there was plenty of reason for them to work together against a common enemy, while trying to keep their "friends" from out shinning them. But to that end, I see no reason why they had to get rid of more than half of the clans when they made the switch to the new rules. They could have just redefined them as they did others.

Beyond that they changed the entire story of "Origin" and (atleast from what I could tell) there is no definitive "First Vampire", and no one common source for the affliction.

PneumaPilot
April 8th, 2009, 01:06
As far as the number of clans goes, it looks like with everything White Wolf these days, five is the magic number - even in Exalted. There sure are a ton of bloodlines, though.

It looks like with all the different lines they have opted for the 'mysterious-multiply-possible-beginnings' idea. Their whole idea with this iteration of the WoD is to make it a toolbox for telling your stories, rather than a railed system for telling theirs. I think they still include the Cain myth as one of the possibilities though. I actually kind of like the reason that they give as to why no one really knows the origin of the first vampire: all the oldest ones spend so much time in torpor, that they start having real trouble differentiating authentic memory from nightmares. That leaves it up to the Storyteller to decide what the actual origin is. I appreciate that freedom, since I would change it if it didn't suit me anyway.

It works out awesome for me, though, since I didn't care anything about the old stories, I look at the new content with fresh eyes and I love it.

The fun idea I'm wanting to try next in WoD is to have my players make children characters using the 'Innocents' rules, and I want to take them through an old haunted house or carnival or something. That would be straight awesome.

Currently, our group of Hunters is chasing an awful serial killer slasher, and the kinds of choices our characters have had to make in order to catch him have sent them into a dark spiral that may leave them just as much monsters as the one they chase. This is great stuff!

joshuha
April 9th, 2009, 01:21
I am not a big fan of the nWoD but am not against playing it. I think with some of their simplifying comabt they made things a bit too streamlined where it doesn't make as much sense (for example, combining attack and damage dice into one roll).

The thing I really don't like is the new Mage system. The old system where freeform use of the magic was encouraged and the rotes were just examples was completely flipped around. Now its all about memorizing tons of rotes ala D&D and casting magic on-the-fly is discouraged by the rules. Also, eviscerating the cool background of the old Mage where the traditions battled to shift the paradigm of reality to their values to everything now being a part of "Atlantis" kinda stinks.

PneumaPilot
April 9th, 2009, 03:19
What I have just noticed myself automatically doing in combat is using the results of the roll as a guide to describing the attack and injury however I want to as a Storyteller. When I first read the rules, I thought, "This system is a lot less detailed than D&D in terms of combat," and it is, but now that I have got the hang of being totally in charge of the dramatic descriptions of damage, etc., I have actually enjoyed the change.

I never played the old Mage game. In fact, I've never played the new Mage game, but I have read the rules. Even though I cannot comment on the differences in the system for casting spells, I can say that as I read the book, I got the notion that the magic system was extremely free-form and that rotes really weren't that important at all. In fact, I really didn't understand what their purpose was. So, when you described a departure from that as a problem for the new Mage, I can't follow.

Atlantis is a little strange, but I suppose it works for me given the flavor of the base WoD rulebook. It seems like it fits quite well into the overarching setting. And again, I never read the old stuff. I'm starting to be very glad that I didn't know the old WoD that well. I'm glad I like the new stuff just the way it is. :)

joshuha
April 9th, 2009, 03:47
What I have just noticed myself automatically doing in combat is using the results of the roll as a guide to describing the attack and injury however I want to as a Storyteller. When I first read the rules, I thought, "This system is a lot less detailed than D&D in terms of combat," and it is, but now that I have got the hang of being totally in charge of the dramatic descriptions of damage, etc., I have actually enjoyed the change.

I am not complaining necessarily of the level of detail more than the combining of multiple resolution effects of the old system into one roll. While it does streamline things it can create some wonky situations. Since your total roll now is skill + damage in one single roll you can get the case where a grandma with a great axe had a better chance to hurt someone than a navy seal with a lt pistol.



I never played the old Mage game. In fact, I've never played the new Mage game, but I have read the rules. Even though I cannot comment on the differences in the system for casting spells, I can say that as I read the book, I got the notion that the magic system was extremely free-form and that rotes really weren't that important at all. In fact, I really didn't understand what their purpose was. So, when you described a departure from that as a problem for the new Mage, I can't follow.

Atlantis is a little strange, but I suppose it works for me given the flavor of the base WoD rulebook. It seems like it fits quite well into the overarching setting. And again, I never read the old stuff. I'm starting to be very glad that I didn't know the old WoD that well. I'm glad I like the new stuff just the way it is. :)

From what I see in the new Mage you CAN cast spells on-the-fly still but its harder than casting them through a rote which is the opposite of the old Mage. The old Mage had a handful of example rotes for each sphere while the new one has 15+ pages of rotes for each sphere now. It just seems to me they went from encouraging thinking of ways to casts magic creatively (while making it seem coincidental) in the old Mage to having you just choose a spell to cast in the new system and penalizing you if want to go outside the box.

That being said, I think the nWod core rules does do a lot for the system as far as making things standard between the systems and that is greatly appreciated. I played the old Vampire and Werewolf as well as Mage and while those also got changed they are thing I can live with as a lot of the old clans/tribes got rolled into various sub-components of the new respective systems with slight twists.

Also, I have always wanted to try out Exalted and with the free PDF offer by White Wolf this week I am itching to read it and get my anime/wuxia thing going. My daughter loves watching Avatar on Nickelodeon and its one of those kid shows that I don't mind watching with her and Exalted reminds me a lot of that.

PneumaPilot
April 9th, 2009, 05:53
Dude, Avatar is like the best show of all time, hands down!

I'm flipping through the Mage book right now and looking at the various spell effects. I see what you're calling rotes. Each one of the possible spell effects also contains some example rotes that are known using that effect and are taught by the different orders.

It seems, though, that the casting by rote is an expensive process and not at all the standard for the system. It costs experience points to purchase the rote, and the only benefit is lowered mana cost and a decreased chance of paradox. The drawback is of course that that particular spell effect must be cast the exact same way each time to get the benefit - you can't get too creative with it.

The standard way of casting seems to still be by improvisation, however. I certainly get from this that massive amounts of combining spell effects of various arcana at different levels is greatly encouraged. They have a great number of example combinations (and yes, each example also includes a sample rote), but these seem to be illustrations of what you can do, not straight-jackets that limit your creativity.

Dang, I want to play me some Mage now...

It's late right now, but tomorrow I want to actually compare a grandma with a greataxe versus a Navy seal with a pistol. I've never actually tried such or heard anyone complain about the discrepancy, so it will be an honest-to-goodness experiment. Until then... ;)

unerwŁnscht
April 9th, 2009, 06:04
I think it all depends on the Grandma and the Navy Seal..
For instance My grandma with a great axe, Vs. Steven Seagal with a pistol, My grandmother is gonna kick his *** every time. But my grandmother is a spirited German Woman set in her ways.

PneumaPilot
April 9th, 2009, 14:03
Okay, assuming we are not talking about the Experimental Grannies of the Third Reich (EGoTR), let's start the experiment with a normal granny. She would be able to pick up 40 pounds (Strength 1) and MIGHT be able to pick up a 100 pound dog (Strength 2), but definitely NOT a 250 pound mailbox (Strength 3). So, giving her the big time benefit of the doubt, we'll give her a Strength 2.

She would not have any previous training in melee close combat (again, she's not the EGoTR), so she'll be swinging her troll greataxe untrained.

The greataxe has a damage rating of 5(L) with the 9-again rule and a strength requirement of 4. Granny's strength + weaponry roll is going to be 2 dice (Strength) - 1 die (untrained Weaponry) + 5 dice (greataxe damage) - 2 dice (Strength is 2 less than the greataxe requirement) for a total roll of 4 dice with the 9-again rule for rerolls. But this is the total before factoring in the Defense of the Seal.

Our Navy Seal (not Steven Segal, who would probably prefer Akido over a pistol, but a normal Navy Seal) will be using his Dexterity + Firearms. If we make him the most lousy Navy Seal on the planet, he will have at least 2 Dexterity and at least 2 in Firearms. If he fires the standard Glock 17 9mm light pistol, he will add 2 dice to the roll for the pistol's damage. So, in total for Pee Wee Herman turned Navy Seal, we're looking at 6 dice.

Now, the granny does not get to subtract her defense from the Firearms roll, and she's certainly not wearing kevlar, so the Seal's attack will remain 6 dice. Granny will have to subtract 2 dice for the Seal's Defense, however, although, again, we will try to help her out by making him naked, so he has no armor. That will bring her final dice pool down to 2.

I'll now roll my trusty World of Darkness dice......

Granny, in a very lucky swing, actually rolled a 9 and a 10, rerolling both, but getting no further successes. Unable to actually lift the axe, she starts trying to drag it in a circle until it develops some momentum and begins to lift off the ground for a second. The naked Navy Seal, seeing the hunchbacked granny about to hurt herself, moves in to put a stop to this nonsense, trying to grab the axe and takes a nasty cut from the lumbering thing in his ankle (2 levels of lethal damage). He's now really ticked off so he steps back out of range and decides to blow granny away with his 9mm.

He fires a single shot, which strikes the old hag in the right shoulder (3 levels of lethal damage). She immediately drops the axe, which slides off the concrete into the grass, and falls over from dizziness and pain. She clutches at the rapidly growing red stain in her night-gown.

Now, in this experiment the amount of damage that each 'combatant' did to one another was similar (2 versus 3), but granny got a miracle roll. If I roll their two dice pools a number of times, here's what I get:
Granny -- PeeWee
0 -- 1
1 -- 0
0 -- 2
1 -- 3
0 -- 3
0 -- 2
0 -- 1
2 -- 0
0 -- 4
1 -- 2

So, the naked Navy Seal is definitely going to waste granny first, and if he has any sense at all, he's not going to even get close enough to get hit by the axe. He has to fight smart.

Also, if we gave granny her proper Strength of 1, she would be reduced to rolling a chance die when she swung the axe, chancing dramatic failure and self-injury each time she swung it. Also, if we properly outfitted the Navy Seal, he would probably be able to put ol' granny down in a single shot. But even in the above test, it was fun that granny did SOME damage. It made the combat more fun, and it let that perverted Seal know that he couldn't just molest an old granny when she had a great troll axe within reach. I think he's learned his lesson.

Valarian
April 9th, 2009, 14:19
Ah, but you've forgotten that it's a German granny he's talking about. The thing with European old women* is that they can carry a sack of potatoes around all day, lift five bags of shopping to carry home 3 miles away, and still then be out digging the garden after dark. They also, do not stop ... ever! You're talking average Strength but an EXTREMELY high Endurance rating here. Give the granny at least three soak damage levels before you start her on the damage track.

* You see the breed throughout Europe (from Spain all the way over to Russia). They are usually dressed in black, have their hair in a bun, and carrying at least two shopping bags.

mr_h
April 9th, 2009, 14:22
I swear I'm gonna find a way to include a evil German Granny in my next campaign.....

PneumaPilot
April 9th, 2009, 14:38
I'm reminded of the granny in the Madagascar movies that beats the crap out of the lion.

unerwŁnscht
April 14th, 2009, 06:28
OK.. I have been sold on it. I am gonna go out and get the nWoD books tomorrow, and try to learn the system. Anyone have any interest in running some crash course training sessions for me?

PneumaPilot
April 14th, 2009, 16:35
Welcome to the dark side! I wouldn't mind messing around with it with you. We just have to find the proper time.

I absolutely love the World of Darkness core rulebook, by the way. It is everything I ever wanted D20 Modern with the Dark Matter campaign setting to be. It also reminds me a lot of the old game Dark Conspiracy. I think the base game is at least as good as all of the supernatural 'modules' for it.

unerwŁnscht
April 14th, 2009, 21:57
Flexibility of time is one luxury I have in abundance. I can clear any time slot in my schedule needed (one of the few actual perks to owning your own company). So just let me know when, and I will make sure to set a digital reminder.

PneumaPilot
April 15th, 2009, 02:56
What time zone are you in? I can usually snag some free time after my girls go to bed at 8PM CST. Also, our weekly game is on Thursday at 8PM CST - 10PM CST if you wanted to just hang out. We're pretty laid back though and might not invoke the mechanics very often.

unerwŁnscht
April 15th, 2009, 04:08
I'm in Indiana so EST. However, between work and insomnia I can be awake pretty much anytime.

PneumaPilot
April 15th, 2009, 15:15
Okay, well I've got church tonight, our game is tomorrow night (which you are welcome to sit in on - just let me know and I'll give you the server names), and I spend Friday nights with my family. So, if you're not up for hangin' with us tomorrow night, we could try to do something Saturday.

unerwŁnscht
April 16th, 2009, 00:43
I thank you for the offer, but actually after reading over the books, I think I've got this. The rules have changed, but they didn't change so much as to make them unfamiliar. I am going to attempt to round up a small group of players for a quick session in the next day or two.

PneumaPilot
April 16th, 2009, 05:59
Alright, that's cool. Hope you like it!

Lithl
June 7th, 2009, 11:28
As far as the number of clans goes, it looks like with everything White Wolf these days, five is the magic number - even in Exalted. There sure are a ton of bloodlines, though.5 has always been a sweet spot in WW's games - with the exception of extremely powerful/old characters, stats are generally limited to either 5 or 10, for example.

And hey, not everything in Exalted comes in 5s. There are only 4 kinds of Dragon Kings :D
(Since during the period of history when the DKs were created, only Gods were allowed on the Blessed Isle; while there were DKs representing the poles of Air, Fire, Water, and Wood, not being allowed on the Isle meant no DKs for Earth)

Also, there are only 3 circles of Sorcery, Necromancy, and Demons ;)

PneumaPilot
June 12th, 2009, 04:53
It'll be interesting to see them break the 5 in the Compass of Celestial Directions when they decide to add Autochthonia by popular demand. All of the first 5 books say right on the back that "These five books..." Well, that's what planning too tight gets ya.

Lithl
June 14th, 2009, 11:15
It'll be interesting to see them break the 5 in the Compass of Celestial Directions when they decide to add Autochthonia by popular demand. All of the first 5 books say right on the back that "These five books..." Well, that's what planning too tight gets ya.
Of course, they could always put Autochthonia in a different book set :D

Compass of Elsewhere Directions, Volume I?

PneumaPilot
June 14th, 2009, 13:53
Ooh, good point.