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  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by LordEntrails View Post
    I'm not sure I agree with Mike's attitude towards the DMsG, but I will say there is value in his perspective.

    In short, their are benefits to using the DMsG, but there are also draw backs. I think for most cases of people or companies wanting to become a "professional" in the RPG industry it is only (at best) a temporary stepping stone. And one that should be a short step in your career path and only if you need access to specific IP that can only be used through the DMsG.

    The areas or types of publishing that is the strength of the DMsG;
    1) Fan type content; sure, a few bucks might be nice, but I just want to publish my self more formally than posting on a forum.
    2) Content that relies upon the restricted IP that only is accessible through the Guild (such as my upcoming Undermountain adventures).
    3) Fantasy Grounds modules and tools. You can only publish through the a separate license agreement, FG Store, or the DMsG. A for small independents, SW would rather you publish through the DMsG (I suspect their store is too labor intensive to accommodate small independents or fan level content).

    If you don't fall into one of those three categories, then I would agree that you should consider other outlets.
    I think that is a fairly good summation of it -
    If you are new and getting started DMsGuild is probably the best place to start.
    If you are established and making some money then the restrictions on DMsG would limit you.
    The DMsG is not inherently bad - its just not for everyone.

  2. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by damned View Post
    I think that is a fairly good summation of it -
    If you are new and getting started DMsGuild is probably the best place to start.
    If you are established and making some money then the restrictions on DMsG would limit you.
    The DMsG is not inherently bad - its just not for everyone.
    I respectfully disagree and will update everyone here with three addendum made to that post.

    2b) ^^^^ has ripple effects. It means that not only are there zero (0) paid work-for-hire gigs for designers outside of EN5ider (email me to get on the list for the next open call), it means there's less money (often none at all) to hire developers, editors, illustrators, and layout artists.

    2c) ^^^ means the death of specializations. I'm able to do all the things competently except for illustrate and it has taken me 5 years to reach that point (of 60-80 hour weeks, with less than 10 days off altogether, 24 if you count one trip out of the country). That was difficult for me to do and I don't have kids. The underlying issue is that it forces amateur material onto the marketplace (even if the design is stellar, odds are not great that the person can also pay for an artist, competently edit themselves, or do solid layout). This drops customer expectations for quality products and explains how the price ceiling on products at DMsGuild dropped to being a few inches off the floor.

    2d) No crowdfunding. Burn up some capital for that DMsGuild product because you can't run a Kickstarter for it (legally, anyway).
    The DMs Guild was designed to stop people from making professional RPG products while at the same time pointing all potential third party traffic to it. That is inherently a bad thing to do. There's a phrase you hear a lot in the RPG industry, "a rising tide raises all ships," but I am at a loss for how the DMsGuild does that--it cuts the legs out of every support role in the industry, dissuades people from taking on game design in a mature fashion, and (for at least 7 people that I've heard from since this started to circulate) convinced them not to attempt designing things professionally which is just godawful. It's hard enough to make this work before you can't sell anywhere but an exclusive venue with insane margins. The world didn't need it and it's having a negative effect on the next wave of game designers. :/

  3. #13
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    DMsGuild makes lots of sense for the Wizards because they do not need to dedicate resources to handling the huge amount of unsolicited submissions they would receive - go to DMsGuild, follow license/agreement and publish away. It makes sense for wannabe publishers because now they do not need to search for elusive approval/license etc - they have it already.

    If your product is going to earn you $X but you want to hire artists, layout, design etc and it will cost you $2X then dont do it unless its part of a broader scheme. The fact that you cant do everything you want to because of cost doesnt make it an unfair system - its just a reality. Start smaller, work out what to drop so you can do it for $X. Once you have a presence and a following you will start to earn $2X for your products and people start finding your back catalogue too.

    There are plenty of 3PP creating content for 5E and selling them on other platforms including RPGnow/DriveThruRPG.

    As to the next wave of game designers, how does this affect them? DMsG is only for 5e. I believe there are lots of high quality RPGs being published today. More or less than other times - I dont know that answer - but I do believe that many new RPGs are better mechanically and in production quality than historical indie RPGs.

    The DMsG has its role. It opens up a massive channel to a lot of people with few barriers to entry. Yes you limit re-use of the material outside of the DMsG - so go in eyes wide open.

  4. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by damned View Post
    DMsGuild makes lots of sense for the Wizards because they do not need to dedicate resources to handling the huge amount of unsolicited submissions they would receive - go to DMsGuild, follow license/agreement and publish away. It makes sense for wannabe publishers because now they do not need to search for elusive approval/license etc - they have it already.

    If your product is going to earn you $X but you want to hire artists, layout, design etc and it will cost you $2X then dont do it unless its part of a broader scheme. The fact that you cant do everything you want to because of cost doesnt make it an unfair system - its just a reality. Start smaller, work out what to drop so you can do it for $X. Once you have a presence and a following you will start to earn $2X for your products and people start finding your back catalogue too.

    There are plenty of 3PP creating content for 5E and selling them on other platforms including RPGnow/DriveThruRPG.

    As to the next wave of game designers, how does this affect them? DMsG is only for 5e. I believe there are lots of high quality RPGs being published today. More or less than other times - I dont know that answer - but I do believe that many new RPGs are better mechanically and in production quality than historical indie RPGs.

    The DMsG has its role. It opens up a massive channel to a lot of people with few barriers to entry. Yes you limit re-use of the material outside of the DMsG - so go in eyes wide open.
    Oh no doubt DMs Guild makes a lot of sense for WotC (or I argue, more importantly, Hasbro). It absolutely rules out the possibility that they'll lose the market share to another publisher because it rules out the possibility of another publisher being able to establish themselves in that corner of the industry well enough to do so (lack of branding aside, the numbers make it impossible even for people at the top of the pile).
    I'm unfamiliar with any distribution market having obscure or difficult to follow compatibility licensing rules, and though it's been a long time since then, when I got my PF license I think the turnaround was less than 24 hours from submission to getting the license. What elusive approval/licenses are you referring to? The open-handed slap that was the GSL for D&D 4th Edition?

    The fact I know it's an unfair system stems from Pathfinder 3PP being able to support entire publishing houses while doing so from a much, much smaller market. 5E has been (as noted in the OP) a huge boon to the RPG community in terms of the player base. Yet despite having a sea of customers compared to the pond that Paizo made, there's not enough capital to go around in their specialized marketplace. That's a reality that was manufactured to be that way.

    There are people making 3PP content for 5e (*points at self*) but it's a struggle to be heard at all, and the predominant place to buy that material is hidden behind not two, not three, but four pages of clicking on OBS sites (although annoyingly that non-DMs Guild material still appears to exist on DMsGuild despite several messages to WotC/OBS/WotC legal about it).

    I'm just going to quote someone who I've helped get off the ground for the next bit. Bolding is my emphasis.
    Would you recommend another platform to submit these larger projects? We were largely under the impression that we were beholden to WotC when it came to 5E content. Our first intentions were to publish on DrivethruRPG but upon reviewing the licensing programs available to newcomers we found no options for publishing 5E content. We did post a 5E product there for a day but it was swiftly removed somehow, and we concluded there was no option to pursue it. I still find various 5E products listed there by parties other than WotC and I'm not entirely sure what the situation is. Thus we've so far been relegated to the dismal sales on DM's guild. I would be ecstatic to learn of a better outlet for our 5E content.
    That guy represents himself and one other person, and they were ready to hang up their game designer hats because the only place they thought they could publish 5E material was DMs Guild. OBS and WotC have 0 interest in fixing this perception (see above).

    The DMs Guild absolutely has its role, and I'm telling you that (after five years full-time freelancing in the RPG industry) that I am 100% confident that role is to marginalize game designers and create a marketplace that is hostile to publishers.

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Myler View Post
    ...(lack of branding aside, the numbers make it impossible even for people at the top of the pile).
    That blog is well over a year old. If you talk to James and others at the top of the pile (which I do, not James, but many of the others) you will find that their opinions have changed drastically, for the positive, about the Guild in that time.

    You mentioned 7 people who have been discouraged from getting into the industry because of their impression of the Guild. I know dozens that have been encouraged to get into the industry because of the Guild. And several that it is one of their majority sources of support/income.

    There are people making 3PP content for 5e (*points at self*) but it's a struggle to be heard at all, ...

    That guy represents himself and one other person, and they were ready to hang up their game designer hats because the only place they thought they could publish 5E material was DMs Guild. OBS and WotC have 0 interest in fixing this perception (see above).

    The DMs Guild absolutely has its role, and I'm telling you that (after five years full-time freelancing in the RPG industry) that I am 100% confident that role is to marginalize game designers and create a marketplace that is hostile to publishers.
    And there's the crux of the matter. It appears you have an ax to grind. You have just joined this forum, and have a total of 2 posts. Both resurrecting this thread to complain about a program that really has little to do with this forum.

    So, welcome to the forums, but if this complaint of the Guild is all you have to add, why don't you take it to a forum that is more related to your complaint?

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  6. #16
    Welcome to the forums and FG Community Mike.

  7. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by LordEntrails View Post
    That blog is well over a year old. If you talk to James and others at the top of the pile (which I do, not James, but many of the others) you will find that their opinions have changed drastically, for the positive, about the Guild in that time.

    You mentioned 7 people who have been discouraged from getting into the industry because of their impression of the Guild. I know dozens that have been encouraged to get into the industry because of the Guild. And several that it is one of their majority sources of support/income.


    And there's the crux of the matter. It appears you have an ax to grind. You have just joined this forum, and have a total of 2 posts. Both resurrecting this thread to complain about a program that really has little to do with this forum.

    So, welcome to the forums, but if this complaint of the Guild is all you have to add, why don't you take it to a forum that is more related to your complaint?
    I'm doing another show with James this week and before seeing this reply was just thinking about how clever the guild adepts program is at curtailing dissent about the program! I know an entire industry of people that are having a harder time operating in the resulting markets because of DMsGuild despite the increased customer base. It's absolutely great that some of the saplings under the gigantic umbrella Hasbro has propped over the 3PP market are managing to do well, and it's a huge sadness to me because if they weren't in such a difficult place to grow they'd be in such better shape and not nearly as lonely.

    Frankly I wasn't aware that Facebook post about DMsGuild was shared here and sought to share it in full. Anyone who's been in the industry since before DMsGuild has an ax to grind (even the folks that have managed to do very well outside of it) because what its done to the industry is reprehensible. My apologies for resurrecting a dead thread, but that post wasn't initially public and it deserves to be shared in its complete form wherever it appears.

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Myler View Post
    Oh no doubt DMs Guild makes a lot of sense for WotC (or I argue, more importantly, Hasbro). It absolutely rules out the possibility that they'll lose the market share to another publisher because it rules out the possibility of another publisher being able to establish themselves in that corner of the industry well enough to do so (lack of branding aside, the numbers make it impossible even for people at the top of the pile).
    All other things aside - why would any IP holder not want to make a cut from products that use their IP or leverage their IP? I cant think of many industries where this doesnt happen.

    I'm unfamiliar with any distribution market having obscure or difficult to follow compatibility licensing rules, and though it's been a long time since then, when I got my PF license I think the turnaround was less than 24 hours from submission to getting the license. What elusive approval/licenses are you referring to? The open-handed slap that was the GSL for D&D 4th Edition?
    Ive contacted quite a few RPG publishers about licensing and the most common response is nothing. None. Zip. Zilch. The next most common response is for it to take ages and ages to resolve the request either for or against. And then there are the publishers that reply quickly with a yay or nay. Paizo is in a pretty unique position. They are purely a RPG business and not beholden to a bigger parent and all their marketing and legal requirements. They are also the biggest (by a long shot) publisher after Wizards. The way they dealt with your request is a factor of these and is also a factor in their success. They have resources and an ability to be nimble. Most other RPG houses have one or the other.

    The fact I know it's an unfair system stems from Pathfinder 3PP being able to support entire publishing houses while doing so from a much, much smaller market. 5E has been (as noted in the OP) a huge boon to the RPG community in terms of the player base. Yet despite having a sea of customers compared to the pond that Paizo made, there's not enough capital to go around in their specialized marketplace. That's a reality that was manufactured to be that way.
    Pathfinder is the only game to ever knock D&D off the number one spot. For a while Paizo was the big dog. Paizo's market share is somewhere between 30-40% of the entire market after you remove the Wizards. Paizo monstrously dwarf everyone bar the Wizards. This is not a small base.

    There are people making 3PP content for 5e (*points at self*) but it's a struggle to be heard at all, and the predominant place to buy that material is hidden behind not two, not three, but four pages of clicking on OBS sites (although annoyingly that non-DMs Guild material still appears to exist on DMsGuild despite several messages to WotC/OBS/WotC legal about it).
    Pretty much EVERYTHING is 3 or 4 clicks deep on OBS because it has sooooooooo much content. Its quite possible that OBS is more responsible for quality publishers not being able to be found. The gazillion products that are available on OBS make everything other than best sellers hard to find. Is this a good or bad thing?

    I'm just going to quote someone who I've helped get off the ground for the next bit. Bolding is my emphasis.

    That guy represents himself and one other person, and they were ready to hang up their game designer hats because the only place they thought they could publish 5E material was DMs Guild. OBS and WotC have 0 interest in fixing this perception (see above).

    The DMs Guild absolutely has its role, and I'm telling you that (after five years full-time freelancing in the RPG industry) that I am 100% confident that role is to marginalize game designers and create a marketplace that is hostile to publishers.
    There are over 2,000 5E products on RPGNow that are not on DMsG including things from high profile sources like Critical Role. Obviously there are a good number of publishers who can find their way around how to publish on the non specific platform. I really dont believe its that hard to do.

  9. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by damned View Post
    All other things aside - why would any IP holder not want to make a cut from products that use their IP or leverage their IP? I cant think of many industries where this doesnt happen.
    It makes plenty of sense for an IP holder to do that and that's why other IP-markets have appeared. Why other companies (like the golems) haven't done so is because it is obviously a bad thing for the industry as a whole. Moreover there's nothing stopping DMsGuild from being more transparent about the existence of a marketplace for 5E content that is not related directly to the IP, and the obscurement of the SRD withholding many of the games mechanics (one archetype per class from the core, no updates, the errata isn't OGL either) is an unnecessary bewilderment (made all the more confusing my legacy terminology).


    Quote Originally Posted by damned View Post
    Ive contacted quite a few RPG publishers about licensing and the most common response is nothing. None. Zip. Zilch. The next most common response is for it to take ages and ages to resolve the request either for or against. And then there are the publishers that reply quickly with a yay or nay. Paizo is in a pretty unique position. They are purely a RPG business and not beholden to a bigger parent and all their marketing and legal requirements. They are also the biggest (by a long shot) publisher after Wizards. The way they dealt with your request is a factor of these and is also a factor in their success. They have resources and an ability to be nimble. Most other RPG houses have one or the other.
    I have had the exact opposite experience. Got to pitch for the WH40k license, first person to license Shadow of the Demon Lord. Paizo isn't just an RPG business--they do comics, and fiction, and card games, and licensing deals. They just want publishing content for their game to be easy and accessible.


    Quote Originally Posted by damned View Post
    Pathfinder is the only game to ever knock D&D off the number one spot. For a while Paizo was the big dog. Paizo's market share is somewhere between 30-40% of the entire market after you remove the Wizards. Paizo monstrously dwarf everyone bar the Wizards. This is not a small base.
    30-40% after you remove the Wizards means the Wizards have over half the marketplace more than 2 or 3 times the next one? That's a massive volume of scale and Paizo's base is split between two systems, one of which is in limbo for the next year.


    Quote Originally Posted by damned View Post
    Pretty much EVERYTHING is 3 or 4 clicks deep on OBS because it has sooooooooo much content. Its quite possible that OBS is more responsible for quality publishers not being able to be found. The gazillion products that are available on OBS make everything other than best sellers hard to find. Is this a good or bad thing?
    OBS is complicit entirely with DMsGuild and are equally responsible for it (and maybe a little more so for encouraging IP-markets). It would be fan-freaking-tastic if they wanted to and did something to make the non-IP market more accessible but there's no intention to do so that I'm aware of. The first time I told them about my non-DMsGuild products generating pages there, they tried to sell it as a feature.


    Quote Originally Posted by damned View Post
    There are over 2,000 5E products on RPGNow that are not on DMsG including things from high profile sources like Critical Role. Obviously there are a good number of publishers who can find their way around how to publish on the non specific platform. I really dont believe its that hard to do.
    I am aware of nobody that's angry or upset at folks that have managed to succeed, but I am disappointed because the mechanisms they're made to rely on to succeed are fundamentally flawed and do everyone involved a huge discredit.

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Myler View Post
    It makes plenty of sense for an IP holder to do that and that's why other IP-markets have appeared. Why other companies (like the golems) haven't done so is because it is obviously a bad thing for the industry as a whole. Moreover there's nothing stopping DMsGuild from being more transparent about the existence of a marketplace for 5E content that is not related directly to the IP, and the obscurement of the SRD withholding many of the games mechanics (one archetype per class from the core, no updates, the errata isn't OGL either) is an unnecessary bewilderment (made all the more confusing my legacy terminology).
    Let me get this right.
    You think the OGL is bad because they give you enough t play with for free but they dont give you their whole product for free?

    I have had the exact opposite experience. Got to pitch for the WH40k license, first person to license Shadow of the Demon Lord. Paizo isn't just an RPG business--they do comics, and fiction, and card games, and licensing deals. They just want publishing content for their game to be easy and accessible.
    Paizo has branched into other products but unlike Hasbro - their RPG line is their big line - it is what drives the company.
    Nonetheless - Paizo doing things well is a good thing and not in argument here.
    The Wizards have created a way for every man and his dog to published licensed material and you call that bad.
    They have not stopped you creating content on your own store or blog or on OBS. Except of course they will continue to protect their PI and IP as they should.
    Other publishers have started similar marketplaces. The fact that we dont hear about them is mostly because 5E is the game that most people play most of the time. Most of the RPG industry is 5e.
    The RPG industry gets bigger every time D&D gets bigger.
    So what if D&D gets the lions share of $$. People choose what they want to spend their money on and they overwhelmingly choose to spend it on 5e.
    The Wizards opened up a market for indie publishers and first timers to not only be able to easily publish content for 5e but to also have access to a huge swathe of PI and IP.
    This has not in any way prevented publishers from doing their own thing.
    If the DMsG proves to be more popular than 3P publishers own products and distribution channels then it probably means they are doing something right.

    30-40% after you remove the Wizards means the Wizards have over half the marketplace more than 2 or 3 times the next one? That's a massive volume of scale and Paizo's base is split between two systems, one of which is in limbo for the next year.
    Are you mad because people choose to buy 5E? Otherwise your first point has gone over my head. Yes D&D 5E is very popular and people both spend money on it and play it. people like it.
    Paizo's share is split between 2 systems? Unlike all the other RPG publishers out there that have multiple products? What does this matter? More people still play AD&D than play most other RPGs on the market.

    OBS is complicit entirely with DMsGuild and are equally responsible for it (and maybe a little more so for encouraging IP-markets). It would be fan-freaking-tastic if they wanted to and did something to make the non-IP market more accessible but there's no intention to do so that I'm aware of. The first time I told them about my non-DMsGuild products generating pages there, they tried to sell it as a feature.
    So now that OBS have two channels for aspiring RPG publishers to get their stuff out there - one with higher costs but a tonne of material for you to use and a ready made licensing agreement and another more traditional channel - you think its harder for people to become successful RPG publishers.

    I am aware of nobody that's angry or upset at folks that have managed to succeed, but I am disappointed because the mechanisms they're made to rely on to succeed are fundamentally flawed and do everyone involved a huge discredit.
    I totally get that this is your view point and that of some others.

    I cannot see how this additional channel and additional licensing arrangement is an imposition.
    We all now have more opportunity to become publishers and more options about the channels and licensing that we choose.
    Thats my view.

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