Perception Checks

[bigbluepaw]

Hey folks. I was just listening to Dragon Talk, the Wizards of the Coast podcast where they cover a lot of stuff, including some rules-as-written content.

The April 27th one was on perception, stealth and invisibility. In it, Jeremy Crawford had some things that surprised me.

• The floor of any perception check should be your passive check. If you roll above that, great. If you don't roll above that, then you use your passive value.
• Any movement towards an enemy invalidates stealth. So if you move 10' to sneak up behind a creature to backstab, then they see you. You essentially have to hide, stay still and backstab when they get close.
• You can attack a creature that is invisible at disadvantage. That invisible creature, however, can attempt stealth at any time. Once hidden, you can not be attacked.

Is everyone else doing it this way?

[SirGraystone]

About the invisibility, you can attack at disavantage by trying to locate the creature by hearing it, so if the creature stealth (stopping doing noise) there's no way for you to find where it is. Unless for example an hound who could smell it.

[LordEntrails]

First one makes sense to me, though if I've called for a perception check, I take the roll and don't think about passive. I should change that.

Second one, not the way I would play it. I would rule a contested check, stealth vs perception. Will still rule it that way. (I don't agree that you can't sneak up on someone, real life shows me it's possible).

Assuming you know what square the creature is in, i.e. a perception check (opposed against stealth).

[bigbluepaw]

Yeah. Crawford said that basically this is all up to the discretion of the GM. However, I wish FG worked this way, especially with passive perception as the floor for an active perception check. That would change things a lot.

[Zacchaeus]

FG does do this. The player rolls for perception and if they roll lower than their passive score the player chooses that.

Having said that if the DC of whatever needs to be noticed is lower than the best passive perception in the group the DM shouldn’t need a check to be rolled. It follows then that if the DC is higher than the best passive perception in the group then it won’t matter what the player’s passive perception is since they are going to have to roll higher than it. So even if FG used the ‘floor’ the check is still going to fail since the passive perception check has already failed.

So i’m not convinced this is any kind of an issue.

[Nickademus]

Hey folks. I was just listening to Dragon Talk, the Wizards of the Coast podcast where they cover a lot of stuff, including some rules-as-written content.

The April 27th one was on perception, stealth and invisibility. In it, Jeremy Crawford had some things that surprised me.

• The floor of any perception check should be your passive check. If you roll above that, great. If you don't roll above that, then you use your passive value.
• Any movement towards an enemy invalidates stealth. So if you move 10' to sneak up behind a creature to backstab, then they see you. You essentially have to hide, stay still and backstab when they get close.
• You can attack a creature that is invisible at disadvantage. That invisible creature, however, can attempt stealth at any time. Once hidden, you can not be attacked.

Is everyone else doing it this way?

No. Though I do.

Point 1: Most DMs I've seen don't, nor does the text of WotC adventures suggest this. But it is the way it should be. I keep the passive values on a note open during the game and glance at it when things need to be noticed.
Point 2: Movement doesn't invalidate stealth; it's the act of moving out of the situation that gave you the ability to make a hide check. If you stay hidden (such as in the dark), you can move all you like. It's when you step out from behind cover, or into light that the conditions for stealth are no longer there and you lose the benefit of the hide check. The PHB does mention that the DM can determine an enemy is distracted and doesn't notice you even though the hide condition is gone, which is sensible in most cases.
Point 3: Indeed. Invisibility prevents you from being seen but doesn't stop you from being heard or smelled. In general, a creature not making a hide check makes enough ambient noise that nearby people know 'something' is there and know which square it is in. An invisible creature should just take the action to hide.

[Axoid]

FG does do this. The player rolls for perception and if they roll lower than their passive score the player chooses that.

Having said that if the DC of whatever needs to be noticed is lower than the best passive perception in the group the DM shouldn’t need a check to be rolled. It follows then that if the DC is higher than the best passive perception in the group then it won’t matter what the player’s passive perception is since they are going to have to roll higher than it. So even if FG used the ‘floor’ the check is still going to fail since the passive perception check has already failed.

So i’m not convinced this is any kind of an issue.

Excellent point.