Would you fund a kickstarter for an improved RMC rulset?

[Valatar]

I'm not willing to drop cash on Rolemaster specifically, as I don't use it. However I'm not averse to paying for ruleset improvements in general, so long as they're rulesets I'm actually using in games. 4E D&D, for example, would be worth something to add in the extra features that the 5E ruleset boasts, since I'm running a game in it.

[JohnD]

I'm going to go off on a tangent for a bit here. Sorry about that but it's all part and parcel of my opinion which forms my answer to the question posed.

I would use the heck out of an expanded and improved RMC. It won't happen because the current owner of Rolemaster is moving towards the next version, which will ultimately be 95% the same as the old version, just like all the other "new versions" before it (RM2, RMSS, FRFRP...). Which will arrive first between this new iteration and the next ice age is a coin flip right now.

RMU might get a new ruleset for it, who knows, if it ever gets released. 2020 perhaps?

I've looked back through my purchase history and see that I've spent almost $1000 USD via Fantasy Grounds since I joined. A lot of that gets opened once, I realize it isn't what I consider a finished/useable product and it just sits there. If I buy something and then still have to spend time on basic prep work as if I were making it myself from scratch... well, poor value for the $ spent. IMO anyways, which as a paying customer I have a right to make that value judgement for myself.

You hear a lot about how these products were made a few years ago which I suppose absolves the consumer of expecting a functional product in 2017. Nobody to go back and maintain the catalog. These older products should have a note in the store that they don’t make use of some/any/all of the newer features a 2017 FG user might expect, probably with a price reduction to acknowledge the buyer still will have some hours of work in front of them before they have an adventure they can just sit down and use on game night.

Even current 3-rd party 5e stuff is released with easy to insert effects for NPC abilities not auto populating in the CT. So there again there's work I have to do on a 2017 product, not a 2013 product, to make it meet expectations as fully useable and for it to take advantage of the bells/whistles of the ruleset it was written for.

So, I suppose I support the idea of targeted funding to improve rulesets in principle. In practice, I believe I've been doing my part to accomplish that all along, possibly not getting value for some of what I've spent. So even with no realistic expectation of it happening, I'd like some of these other things looked at first.

I guess you could put me down as an "if depends" response. Frankly I don't think these kind of questions are entirely helpful, JMO and all that.

[vodokar]

First, I see no reason why Smiteworks would care or complain as long as no one is SELLING such a thing. Even if someone were, I don't think there's any law against selling software that works with other software.

Speaking hypothetically about a community ruleset, which traditionally are not sold via any means and are donated to the community, and not an official ruleset like RMC, which is being sold in the FG store, such a kickstarter or patreon would not constitute "selling" of the ruleset product generated, but selling of the ruleset developer's time to devote to making said product.

What's the difference? A lot.

If 20 people donate to the kickstarter, they get the ruleset developed. If a year later, 20 more people download it that didn't donate to the kickstarter, they still get the product at no cost. The 20 people that did donate didn't pay for a product, they payed for the ruleset developers time, likely just pennies on the dollar of what it actually cost in man hours for the developer to work on it.

Why would someone donate when they know they can just wait and get it for free? Well, they can, but, they have the knowledge of knowing that if they do donate, they helped the community developer, likely someone they know quite well on these forums, to buy some beer or new tennis shoes for their son etc. It's an opportunity to say thank you to the developer for the time spent providing them something they wanted.

With regards to which format works best? I've never tried kickstarter to support a community ruleset development. I have tried Patreon, Paypal and Drivethru RPG donations. No one seems to like Patreon as a support mechanism, likely because it is a monthly thing, rather than a one-time cost, even though they could simply subscribe for a short time and then unsubscribe. I have had some one-time donations via Paypal and some people buy and send me stuff from Drive Thru. Thanks so much to those people.

A Kickstarter campaign would basically be the same sort of thing. The developer could set a goal, maybe $100 or $500. If he attains that goal, he then sets aside the time to develop the ruleset. If he doesn't attain the goal, then maybe he doesn't. In order to avoid any Imperial Entanglements, it should be spelled out very clearly in the kickstarter that what is being payed for is not a product, but a person's time and talent and that the product itself will be given away freely to anyone who wants it, regardless of whether they donated or not.

[Frunobulax]

Just want to say a couple things before I reply to Vodokar.

First, I really wish I had titled the poll "If you use the RMC Ruleset, would you contribute to a kickstarter?" Obviously people who do not use it wouldn't be interested. I wonder if anyone voted "no" because they don't care about Rolemaster - I hope not.

Second, I want to make absolutely clear that by discussing copyright and IP issues, in absolutely no way am I encouraging or suggesting that people should try to rip off any company or person. I'm a huge fan of both Smiteworks and Iron Crown, and in all cases I want all copyrights honored and for corporations and content creators to be paid fairly for their stuff. So I'm not trying to "wiggle" out of anything or circumvent any laws. I just find IP law fascinating and enjoy discussing it. So this is all hypothetical/theoretical.

Speaking hypothetically about a community ruleset, which traditionally are not sold via any means and are donated to the community, and not an official ruleset like RMC, which is being sold in the FG store, such a kickstarter or patreon would not constitute "selling" of the ruleset product generated, but selling of the ruleset developer's time to devote to making said product.

Yes - this. I'm not suggesting a kickstarter to create a ruleset that would then be owned or sold, simply to pay programmers for their time to revise and expand the existing RMC ruleset. It would be impossible to sell anyways as it would be chock-full of copyrighted IP by its very nature. It would be a lot of work, though, so I'm thinking it would have to be a couple thousand $ at least. I don't know if that much could be raised. Good programmers aren't cheap, and most people who know Lua are probably getting paid to do it for other commercial games.

Now, the question of whether someone could create and sell an adventure module that works with the RMC ruleset is a little more open. I strongly doubt you would have to get Smitework's permisson unless you wanted to sell it in their store. There are a million examples of people making and selling additions to existing software. Certainly you could advertise it with "Works with Fantasy Grounds(tm)!" in just the same way as generic drugs can say "Compare to Brand Name(tm)". As long as you use the trademark symbol you would be fine.

Naturally, if you wanted to use any copyrighted Iron Crown material you would need their permission. On the one hand, you wouldn't be able to use any copyrighted original stuff like spell list names, Shadow World places, or anything that ICE wrote. On the other hand, there is lots of stuff they don't have copyrighted because they are generic terms - "elf", "dragon", whatever. Certainly if you wanted to use any copyrighted terms like that you would need their permission. Then again, all that stuff is contained in the already-licensed modules Character Law, Spell Law, etc. so if you owned those you could probably refer to them. I think it might be possible to make an adventure module for the RMC ruleset without the permission of either company as long as you were careful not to use any original/copyrighted material. But that's all theoretical - why would anyone NOT work with Iron Crown? I'm sure they'd be happy for more new modules to exist. Yeah, you would save yourself the cost of their royalties, but the module would be dull and generic and hardly sell at all, I imagine.

I myself am thinking of creating a new adventure module for the RMC ruleset, but if I did so I would certainly work with Smiteworks and Iron Crown and pay their royalties. The only thing I don't like about the Smiteworks system is that you only get paid for the first year the material is out. That seems a little unfair. But it's a relatively small point, and they seem to be a bit flexible on it.

[Trenloe]

The only thing I don't like about the Smiteworks system is that you only get paid for the first year the material is out. That seems a little unfair. But it's a relatively small point, and they seem to be a bit flexible on it.

Huh? Are you sure about this? I have never heard of this from anyone and know developers who are getting payment for products developed a few years ago.

I assume you're getting this misconception from a SmiteWorks "Work for Hire Contract"? Point 3 in my contract with SmiteWorks states that the contract terminates one year after the product is no longer for sale - not one year after it is put on sale.

[Frunobulax]

Huh? Are you sure about this? I have never heard of this from anyone and know developers who are getting payment for products developed a few years ago.

I don't want to discuss my, your, or Smiteworks personal business stuff in public so I will reply privately.