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  1. #101
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  2. #102
    I was asked a very good question last night. I unfortunately am not very good at putting together a very good ad-lib verbal answer to such a relevant, thoughtful, meaningful and deep question. So, I would like to elaborate here a bit.

    We were discussing Game Master styles and I was asked what I personally mean when I say "old school" style.

    The TL;DR version would be that I agree with this statement:

    “The worthy GM never purposely kills players' PCs, He presents opportunities for the rash and unthinking players to do that all on their own.”
    ― Gary Gygax

    There is a continuum with the infamous Killer DM on one end and the Story Teller DM on the other end. I am in between. I feel that the judge should impartially judge the game. He presents dangerous places and situations to his players. The players know that their fate is up to the dice and their own wits and skill -- they can expect no fudging of the dice either for or against them. Indeed, they see almost all of my dice rolls. They often know their fate even before I do.

    Here is the thing. RPG's are the greatest entertainment and story telling medium in the world. Why? Because no one knows what will happen. You watch a movie, guess what, the good guys win 99.99999% of the time. It's in the script. In an RPG, it's really possible for the heroes to lose. Not even the judge knows their fate. When the heroes win, success feels sweet. It was well earned. When the dangers are really there and your characters life hangs in the balance, you find yourself on the edge of your seat wanting to know how the story comes out. The judge sets that tone. When the players know he is pulling punches or faking results, the excitement isn't there. The fix is in and they know it. This is just my opinion, but game masters that focus so much on the story that they refuse to allow a character to be killed because it might mess up the story are cheating their players. It's easy to make a new character. You didn't kill the player, just some numbers on a piece of paper. The story can still be told with new pc's. And the most amazing stories sometimes come from the brutalist deaths. But, you can never recover the feel of excitement of the players if they ever feel the risk isn't really there.

    Those are the ideals that I strive for. Not saying I'm there yet. But it is the style of game I was brought up in. Those beliefs run deep.
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  3. #103
    leozelig's Avatar
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    The risk of PC death definitely increases the tension. Players react differently to that, with some hanging back to avoid the risk. Maybe in Gary's day, "rash and unthinking players" were more common since D&D was a more novel experience - I don't know. In my games, I feel like most players are smart enough to avoid the obvious pitfalls. They can accept the randomness of the dice, but I try to avoid PC deaths that feel too arbitrary.

    The appeal of DCC for me is the deemphasis of complex character builds (i.e. the individual element of the game) and an attempt to recapture the unexpectedness of going on an adventure (a shared experience), allowing the game to focus more on mystery and exploration and the very real danger that goes along with that. The rarity of magic items and treasure is DCC's way of telling players that this game is not about building a superhero PC - it's about a group of underdogs working together to overcome improbable odds... and sometimes not.

    Many DCC fans seem to expect PC death as an essential element for a "legitimate" DCC experience, but for me, it's more about unpredictability and discovery, including whether or not your character survives the adventure.

  4. #104
    Quote Originally Posted by vodokar View Post
    I was asked a very good question last night. I unfortunately am not very good at putting together a very good ad-lib verbal answer to such a relevant, thoughtful, meaningful and deep question. So, I would like to elaborate here a bit.

    We were discussing Game Master styles and I was asked what I personally mean when I say "old school" style.

    The TL;DR version would be that I agree with this statement:

    “The worthy GM never purposely kills players' PCs, He presents opportunities for the rash and unthinking players to do that all on their own.”
    ― Gary Gygax

    There is a continuum with the infamous Killer DM on one end and the Story Teller DM on the other end. I am in between. I feel that the judge should impartially judge the game. He presents dangerous places and situations to his players. The players know that their fate is up to the dice and their own wits and skill -- they can expect no fudging of the dice either for or against them. Indeed, they see almost all of my dice rolls. They often know their fate even before I do.

    Here is the thing. RPG's are the greatest entertainment and story telling medium in the world. Why? Because no one knows what will happen. You watch a movie, guess what, the good guys win 99.99999% of the time. It's in the script. In an RPG, it's really possible for the heroes to lose. Not even the judge knows their fate. When the heroes win, success feels sweet. It was well earned. When the dangers are really there and your characters life hangs in the balance, you find yourself on the edge of your seat wanting to know how the story comes out. The judge sets that tone. When the players know he is pulling punches or faking results, the excitement isn't there. The fix is in and they know it. This is just my opinion, but game masters that focus so much on the story that they refuse to allow a character to be killed because it might mess up the story are cheating their players. It's easy to make a new character. You didn't kill the player, just some numbers on a piece of paper. The story can still be told with new pc's. And the most amazing stories sometimes come from the brutalist deaths. But, you can never recover the feel of excitement of the players if they ever feel the risk isn't really there.

    Those are the ideals that I strive for. Not saying I'm there yet. But it is the style of game I was brought up in. Those beliefs run deep.
    You handled Tim's passing well, and have nudged us a little here and there where we may have missed something, so I think that shows up in our game. Fortunately , luck was on Tims side, and we still have the character around. I like this rule-set, (except I keep falling down) and like the way we have to think our way through it as well as fight our way through. I do like having to think out problems. It will be interesting to see how we resolve our current dilemma!
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  5. #105
    Quote Originally Posted by leozelig View Post
    The risk of PC death definitely increases the tension. Players react differently to that, with some hanging back to avoid the risk. Maybe in Gary's day, "rash and unthinking players" were more common since D&D was a more novel experience - I don't know. In my games, I feel like most players are smart enough to avoid the obvious pitfalls. They can accept the randomness of the dice, but I try to avoid PC deaths that feel too arbitrary.

    The appeal of DCC for me is the deemphasis of complex character builds (i.e. the individual element of the game) and an attempt to recapture the unexpectedness of going on an adventure (a shared experience), allowing the game to focus more on mystery and exploration and the very real danger that goes along with that. The rarity of magic items and treasure is DCC's way of telling players that this game is not about building a superhero PC - it's about a group of underdogs working together to overcome improbable odds... and sometimes not.

    Many DCC fans seem to expect PC death as an essential element for a "legitimate" DCC experience, but for me, it's more about unpredictability and discovery, including whether or not your character survives the adventure.
    To the contrary, many of the guys that Gary played with were very experienced wargamers and were highly skilled. Old school play definitely plays to that because it emphasizes player skill to get you out of jams, solve puzzles and avoid traps rather than relying on the character making rolls. Not saying there aren't equally good players today, because of course there are (and I'm fortunate to have met some of them in this very game), but there are many more that were brought up in the era of looking for all the answers on their character sheet and expecting something written there to always be what solves the problem. (need I remind people of the 4e skill challenges system)

    Regarding deaths that feel too arbitrary, that is simply the way life is. However, that is the very reason that I instituted my house rules. Dice are arbitrary by nature. But the players have agency to change the arbitrariness of the dice -- at a cost. Abuse it and it will come back to bite you, but it's totally in your own hands. Having meaningful choices to make is very good for the players. Seek not the answers on the piece of paper in front of you. Seek it between your own ears. The lack of a skill system in the original game was not because Gary didn't think of them, it is because he didn't want them, and never did believe in them even after he saw the invention of them. He felt they were limiting to your imagination. He envisioned that characters had lots of things they could do, just because they were adventurers, but setting that down on paper limited the players to having tunnel vision and not using their imagination.

    In total agreement with everything else you said. That is especially good insight about capturing the unexpectedness of going on an adventure, which is what 0-level funnels do -- drag Bilbo out of his comfy bed and into the adventure of his lifetime where he forges his character into a hero in ways he never imagined he could ever be. The vary nature of old school play, with simpler characters and all of the other ascetics, redirect the focus back on the mystery and exploration and the very real danger that goes along with that.
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  6. #106
    Quote Originally Posted by Teufelhunde87 View Post
    You handled Tim's passing well, and have nudged us a little here and there where we may have missed something, so I think that shows up in our game. Fortunately , luck was on Tims side, and we still have the character around. I like this rule-set, (except I keep falling down) and like the way we have to think our way through it as well as fight our way through. I do like having to think out problems. It will be interesting to see how we resolve our current dilemma!
    Luck was on Tim's side, but also a judicious amount of skill as well. We are all still feeling our way about this game, getting used to how it plays, but all of you are on a very good climb up the ladder of mastery of your play. I don't know about you, but I was definitely on the edge of my seat when she made her roll. And I rejoice that Tim (now little Timmy) lives. What made it what it was is because you knew you could count on the fact that the judge would not intercede and fudge the result. Your successes are really your own.
    Ultimate License Holder GM

    Games currently Playing: AD&D, DCC RPG and D&D 5e

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    Current Projects:

    1) Adventure Module.
    2) Maintaining and improving released projects.
    3) C.O.O.L. Beasts
    4) Basic Fantasy Ruleset
    5) Metamorphosis Alpha Ruleset

  7. #107
    Agreed!
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  8. #108
    leozelig's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vodokar View Post
    To the contrary, many of the guys that Gary played with were very experienced wargamers and were highly skilled. Old school play definitely plays to that because it emphasizes player skill to get you out of jams, solve puzzles and avoid traps rather than relying on the character making rolls. Not saying there aren't equally good players today, because of course there are (and I'm fortunate to have met some of them in this very game), but there are many more that were brought up in the era of looking for all the answers on their character sheet and expecting something written there to always be what solves the problem. (need I remind people of the 4e skill challenges system)

    Regarding deaths that feel too arbitrary, that is simply the way life is. However, that is the very reason that I instituted my house rules. Dice are arbitrary by nature. But the players have agency to change the arbitrariness of the dice -- at a cost. Abuse it and it will come back to bite you, but it's totally in your own hands. Having meaningful choices to make is very good for the players. Seek not the answers on the piece of paper in front of you. Seek it between your own ears. The lack of a skill system in the original game was not because Gary didn't think of them, it is because he didn't want them, and never did believe in them even after he saw the invention of them. He felt they were limiting to your imagination. He envisioned that characters had lots of things they could do, just because they were adventurers, but setting that down on paper limited the players to having tunnel vision and not using their imagination.
    Interesting (and good) point about the wargamers. Your house rules were great, by the way. Personally, I enjoy seeing my PCs die horrible deaths, but as a DM, I am more self-conscious that a player might be upset at their character's sudden demise.

    Skill challenges in 4e... There might never be a more tedious mechanic in a tabletop system again, or let's hope so anyway!

  9. #109
    Hah, it was a beautiful mechanic. But, it takes the idea of character rolls to its extreme. Oh, poor little Timmy, how are we going to solve the mystery of getting him out of the room and back to normal? Give me 3 religion checks, 4 personality checks and 2 athletic checks and 2 strength checks and the mystery will be solved. Sit there and roll a bunch of meaningless dice because I don't believe my players are smart enough to actually think about the mystery and solve it. No, I say. Nonsense.

    Old school play does have a skill system - the assumption is that anyone can attempt to do anything at any time. At any time, the player can describe what they want to do and the DM will either tell them it succeeds outright because it is a great idea or will instruct them to roll something. But, having elaborate skill systems in place and especially entire skill challenge mechanisms really really destroys the mystery and is really setting the bar of expected player skill ridiculously low. I think far more of my players than that, and so did Gary. Regardless of what else you might say about the man, he really didn't believe in dumbing down things for his audience; you see that in his high gygaxian writing style; you also see it in his expectations of what the players could achieve; and yes, expecting those things of them sometimes meant they died horrible deaths, but they learned from that and came back better skilled.

    And here is a copy of the house rules:

    Attachment 16205
    Last edited by vodokar; November 9th, 2016 at 22:59.
    Ultimate License Holder GM

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  10. #110
    Quote Originally Posted by Teufelhunde87 View Post
    You handled Tim's passing well...
    Quote Originally Posted by vodokar View Post
    Luck was on Tim's side, but also a judicious amount of skill as well.
    Let’s not spend any more time dwelling on who did or didn’t die. Its really not that important. I have learned my lesson and that's what matters. Next time I will fall down like Greg & Martin instead of backstab and I will live.
    Quote Originally Posted by vodokar View Post
    Oh, poor little Timmy, how are we going to solve the mystery of getting him out of the room and back to normal?
    ↑↑↑ THIS! ↑↑↑ I feel that this is probably the most salient point made. I'm free on Sunday.....
    "How do you want to do this?"

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