Fantasy Grounds Unity engine

[Valyar]

It is a nice wish but its not really realistic.

Depends. For a company that relies also on the community for the longevity of its product, providing this very community with proper tools can lead to surprising results.

Also I don't think it is that hard, compared to coding for Unity. What is a ruleset? A set of xml and lua files combined together in specific order in order. All rulesets are layered on CoreRPG, the content are more or less structured in the same way, classes are built with the same controls over and over. You can say that there is finite possibility because the underlying engine is imposing them. The exposed functions from the engine are also pre-defined list.

So what a tool needs to do? To allow you an easy way to generate the necessary files, basic scripts, include them properly, set folder structure, allow you visually to adjust the different controls on a sheet (because this is the most time consuming thing, making the layout and different sheets). Maybe a tool to bulk import content in the DB might be good as well.

I will give my personal story as an example. My groups do not play D&D and Pathfinder. The only reason I purchased FG was the 40kMultiSet by Paul Pratt. Nothing else. I introduced two other people who purchased FG just because of this. One bailed out after he discovered how impossible is for him to put all his creative energy into form. Then I discovered other rulesets and extensions, and started playing other systems, but the moment when ruleset is not properly working or the author is no longer maintaining it - we have problem. Many people will just drop FG. I can find myself around the code and fix the most annoying errors, but sometimes it is too much to follow, to read and cross check without proper tools. Starting from scratch is something I am eager to do, but for now the time required to do proper ruleset is a bridge too far for me. For the reason stated above

Anyway, maybe the people like me are minority. But a man can dream

[lostsanityreturned]

Really a ruleset editor would start with a character sheet creator.

But other things take precedence atm and rightfully so.

[Bidmaron]

This topic has been discussed many times. It is just not going to happen in any significant way. It is unfair to compare Visual Basic forms editor from one of the world's largest companies with Fantasy Grounds. The effort to produce what you want is enormous, and, even if you did it, the maintenance as the program evolves is daunting.

Most users would not want SW to devote the resources to do what Valyar wants, as it would rob from the few resources available to evolve the program and add additional rulesets.

If you doubt this, just look at the Wiki. Unless one of the community folks does so, the only thing that really gets much update from SW is the API wiki (and even that lapses in some cases). There is a ruleset tutorial in there, and look at how out-of-date it is. It is almost useless.

And this is not SW's fault. I think there focus is spot-on. Work on getting Unity out, and continue evolving what we have. Add a few rulesets if possible. I believe their focus is entirely appropriate.

So, Valyar, either buckle down and figure it out, or keep wishing. It will not happen, and even if it does, it will languish into increasing uselessness as each new FG revision comes out.

There are plenty of examples of good rulesets and extensions out there. Study them. I am not a professional programmer, and I've been able to figure out what I need to (with the help of the community). It isn't that hard, especially for a programmer. It does take a lot of effort. (I will confess, however, that I have a long way to go to completely understand the incredibly versatile [and therefore complex] UI xml tags and attributes).

Please don't take this a personal attack because it is not. I have been around here a while, as you can tell from my join date, and this discussion has at least been an A-1R, as we say in the Navy (meaning it is a maintenance action that occurs annually or more often if equipment condition warrants [the 'R' part]).

[Guoccamole]

2c from left field...

I think both sides to this discussion have merit. The crux of the issue (with nod to size of billionaire corporations) is critical mass. SW & Fantasy Grounds have such avid and loyal customers that it seems reasonable to think they could light on fire in additional ways... especially since they’re paying to save themselves time at the gaming table, and DM’s always want to save themselves more time. That’s what SW FG does so brilliantly.

So Valyar is simply requesting more of that... better leverage before, during, after gaming table.

But the dollars are definitiely not there right now as they are spent carefully on maintaining classic FG and (fingers crossed) building newfangled Unity FG. And the light is at the end of the tunnel, so everything seems to be turning out swimmingly. So money is not there for non-critical new features (e.g., forms).

But what about avid customer critical mass... which is what I believe Valyar’s original point was? Could SW keep simplifying certain areas to enable FG newbies to customize and build? Even if SW FG can *not* do that explicitly now, they can (and I hope do) keep any eye out to do that... especially as they build FGU from whole cloth. Or as they build plumbing for the games systems.

All that said, the key issue is going to be critical mass. And I think that discussion will be easier (fingers crossed) to have after FGU hits the streets. Presumably, SW will gain many new customers who have been awaiting key/snazzy features, such as automatic line of sight, map building, and all the new and wondrous features FGU brings. If there is an upswing in users, and they still have nerdy technical bent, then (as now) it would be good for SW keep any eye to simplifying and documenting back-end FGU APIs, scripting, etc., and ease entry (slippery slope, ideally) into contributing “back” into the community... with game systems, mods, etc..

... Competing Game Engines?

For myself, I’d like to know what’s up with the competing rules engines? Core or Dulux-Oz? Or are they merging? I use a lot of Dulux-Oz extensions (which are great). So I’m also wondering if everyone is working together, or competition is a good thing, and what works for FGU? All lua, I gather (good enough). But what’s the DM strategy with extensions at this juncture? (Whoops, just switched topics. Doh.)

[LordEntrails]

...
But what about avid customer critical mass... which is what I believe Valyar’s original point was? Could SW keep simplifying certain areas to enable FG newbies to customize and build? Even if SW FG can *not* do that explicitly now, they can (and I hope do) keep any eye out to do that... especially as they build FGU from whole cloth. Or as they build plumbing for the games systems.

SW has made it easier to create content for DM/GM's. At least in some rulesets. For instance, one can now create classes, races, and pre-generated characters within the UI for 5E, which used to all have to be done in the xml itself.

... Competing Game Engines?

For myself, I’d like to know what’s up with the competing rules engines? Core or Dulux-Oz? Or are they merging? I use a lot of Dulux-Oz extensions (which are great). So I’m also wondering if everyone is working together, or competition is a good thing, and what works for FGU? All lua, I gather (good enough). But what’s the DM strategy with extensions at this juncture? (Whoops, just switched topics. Doh.)

Rulesets not engines

CoreRPG is the generic ruleset that SW provides. DORCore is a community ruleset that among other reasons Dulux has created so that other rulesets developers can use it as a base to build off of and then Dulux will then have fewer rulesets that he has to support with his DOE extensions.

Given that life has impacted development of DORCore, and all the other community ruleset developers have limited time, I don't know if any have commited to converting over to DORCore. That's something that we can expect to develop in time.

[Guoccamole]

TY! Sounds like situation is still developing. All the best for Dulux-Oz. He has (shares!) great extensions. I do look forward to some sort of consolidation so the path is clear.

Thank you for the distinction between ruleset and engine with explanation of CoreRPG vs. DORCore.

(Dare I ask) what is an engine... in FG terms?

[LordEntrails]

(Dare I ask) what is an engine... in FG terms?

We don't normally talk about "engine" but when we do, that would be referring to the FG application itself. The core executable of FG that the comes before the rulesets get loaded. We (the community) don't have access to modify the engine itself.

[Guoccamole]

Awesome. TY for rapid education!-)

[Valyar]

Guoccamole, spon on. Exactly what I mean with my post and you elaborated well. Thank you for that.

I believe this should be the end-game for SW and Fantasy Grounds. But to reach the that phase, a lot of work needs to be done and under ideal circumstances this will include FGU as modern and extensible platform, more products, more features unmatched by the competition and last, but not least (maybe the most important nowadays) - much better marketing and advertising to increase the fan base.

I hope they are making the right design decisions with FGU and the technologies used will allow them to burst forward with features and innovations once it is released. Dynamic lights is not something spectacular for product at launch, especially if the UI will remain as is for now (it was stated few times in this thread), but I believe that this step "back" is just a preparation for a leap.

@Bidmaron - I have no issues with what you said. I share your position on the matter, though this does not keep me from wanting more and saying it loudly. As long as nobody acts as avid fanboy that has no reason, blindly defending the object of his deification I am cool

[Bidmaron]

Wel, Valyar I hope we see a lot more of you here. It is possible (or not) that the interface may come to grow on you. I have come to appreciate it because it is monstrously flexible. Also the fact that it is different from most windows apps reinforces the suspension of reality that is really important with fantasy role playing.
You will find no shortage of folks here who will help you if you decide to take the plunge.