No Dragons showing up in the 3.5e Monsters list

[Jwguy]

Free insofar as the information about the creatures and their statistics have been released to the public for most uses, effectively, including modification and distribution, and in the store, the license states the following as one of its features: Library modules with D&D 3.5E open gaming content typically found in the SRD. I grant the distinction between "Open Game Content" and "All Open Game Content", but I think that relying on that distinction is petty, at best, if only because every other OGL SRD item is included in the ruleset (Seriously. This is the first time I've ever encountered a single OGL SRD item not being already in there, in some manner). Indeed, it was because every other OGL SRD item was included that the peculiar omission of a single group of creatures, especially the titular creatures, was odd and may not have been normal expected behavior.

I also believe the argument that purely arrangement justifies their omission is flawed on a two points. Firstly, that all items included in the ruleset (read: the entirety of all other OGL SRD entries) were also arranged, and either did not cost additional fees or those fees were incorporated into the total cost of the license as a feature, making the specific omission of these creature tables suspect. Secondly, that even if the arrangement was more arduous and justified the separation purely because of the permutations that the tables would result in if making individual creatures for all ages and variations of the True Dragon entry, the table could be included with so little as a copy-paste function in order to meet the goal of including typical SRD content for 3.5e, which is also conspicuously absent. Finally, I also feel that dismissing these concerns with "they can be found elsewhere" is contrary to the purpose of this program; All features can be found elsewhere (Some for better result, and some worse; remember us talking about the individual sight thing?), but the program still takes those and attempts some level of consolidation in order to make it more efficient and easier on players and GMs.

And in any case, I have both an Ultimate License and the Complete SRD, and have had them since I originally joined the forums a long while back. I am just pointing out what initially appeared to be a bug, and now appears to be an omission, whether intentional or not.

[Trenloe]

Well, we're just going to have to disagree on this as we see it completely differently.

Just including copy/paste tables (a direct translation from the SRD) would, quite frankly, be of very little use - effectively you couldn't use this to create a Fantasy Grounds NPC entry on the fly (Callum has mentioned how long it took him to do 5 dragons using such a method).

Read this thread: https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forum...ghlight=dragon If someone wants to take the time to do it Smiteworks will include them in a future release.

Yes, it would be great to have all of the Dragons included, we can all agree on that - but someone has to do it and as Callum has stated it takes a lot of time.

[Jwguy]

I would be more sympathetic to your point if the statted creature entries didn't already exist in the module, and I wasn't under the impression that they could be ported from that, easily.

[Trenloe]

I would be more sympathetic to your point if the statted creature entries didn't already exist in the module, and I wasn't under the impression that they could be ported from that, easily.

Which module? The one that you pay for? The one that someone put together on the understanding that their extensive data entry work would be sold and they would receive payment for said work?

Are you suggesting that person's extensive data entry work is plagiarized and put into the version that is included with Fantasy Grounds?

[Callum]

Full stat blocks for every dragon at every age aren't provided in the SRD - in fact, the SRD has no dragon stat blocks at all! The 3.5E Monster Manual has one, solitary stat block for each color of dragon, but these don't form part of the SRD. The SRD does have tables stating how to calculate stats for each dragon type, but these don't form part of the monster stat blocks provided in FG because they're not stat blocks - they wouldn't fit info that format.

I built FG versions of one of each chromatic dragon, which took a surprisingly long time. I'm sure it must have taken an age to build every single permutation for the Complete SRD, and I don't blame whoever did that for charging for it. If you'd like to do the same and provide it for free, or even port the tables from the SRD into a FG module (if you think people would find that useful), I'm sure the community would gratefully receive them.

[Jwguy]

Which module? The one that you pay for? The one that someone put together on the understanding that their extensive data entry work would be sold and they would receive payment for said work?

Are you suggesting that person's extensive data entry work is plagiarized and put into the version that is included with Fantasy Grounds?

Yes, it would be great to have all of the Dragons included, we can all agree on that - but someone has to do it and as Callum has stated it takes a lot of time.

You seemingly implied that they didn't exist already in the suggested form with that sentence; I don't sympathize with that point, as they already do. That is the only thing my comment addressed. You can attempt to dress the argument up all you want into some analogue of "Wants free stuff" or "Wants to plagiarize" but if so, I just find that to be dishonest and a lack of faith on your part. You clearly see nothing wrong with the status quo, as per usual, and I do, seemingly as per usual, that's been established and we're clearly not getting anywhere if all you're going to do is attempt to cast me in a negative light.

Full stat blocks for every dragon at every age aren't provided in the SRD - in fact, the SRD has no dragon stat blocks at all! The 3.5E Monster Manual has one, solitary stat block for each color of dragon, but these don't form part of the SRD. The SRD does have tables stating how to calculate stats for each dragon type, but these don't form part of the monster stat blocks provided in FG because they're not stat blocks - they wouldn't fit info that format.

I built FG versions of one of each chromatic dragon, which took a surprisingly long time. I'm sure it must have taken an age to build every single permutation for the Complete SRD, and I don't blame whoever did that for charging for it. If you'd like to do the same and provide it for free, or even port the tables from the SRD into a FG module (if you think people would find that useful), I'm sure the community would gratefully receive them.

I don't disagree with some of the facts you mention, but my point is that it is a very large omission of a titular item from the SRD, even if it wasn't in the form of pre-generated, individual monster npcs. There's literally nothing there for them, and while I personally do think they should be present in both items in that form, simply because of the inclusion of the SRD as a feature in the License, and the average user's expected presentation of the SRD, I made this topic with the intent of addressing the omission, itself. Simply not having anything on them, at all, appears to be a glaring oversight, in my opinion.

[Trenloe]

OK - you've completely missed the point a few of us have been making for a long time in this thread. Smiteworks cannot copy/paste the dragon details from the existing Complete SRD module ($7 from the store) and include this in the already available 3.5e Bestiary as this would be breaking whatever commercial agreement they made with the person who spent all of the time putting that module together. You suggested that Smiteworks simply take some of that hard work and make it available for no additional charge in the base product - taking someone's hard work and depriving them of potential revenue, essentially passing it off as someone elses work/not recognising the original person's work - hence plagiarism. It's not dressing it up - it is quite simply what it would be.

I am trying to protect the hard work done by someone else - how is that dishonest on my part? Taking their hard work and going against the original agreement of selling it and providing some percentage payment, now that would be dishonest.

That is what we are defending - you can't simply take the work that was put into the Complete SRD Product (https://www.fantasygrounds.com/store....xcp?id=DGA044) and put portions of it in the base 3.5e product without working out a new agreement for the original work or providing normal reimbursement.

I'm not defending the status quo - I'm defending someone's hard work and the agreements around that. I fail to see how that is dishonest on my part.

[damned]

hey @Jwguy - I dont know if this helps - Castles&Crusades treats dragons exactly the same way. It has all the info on how to Stat a dragon but no Dragon stats.
Other Monsters from OGL/SRD are all in there.
I believe that there would be no issue in you creating a fully statted out selection of dragons and sharing the module as the source material is in the SRD, but you would have to actually stat them out as they dont exist in fully statted out form as far as i know - other than in other peoples compilations.

[Nylanfs]

Another option would be to use the default dragon kit/monster option from PCGen and import into FG.

[Moon Wizard]

Just to settle issue. If someone works up the stats and/or instructions, I'll include in the 3.5E bestiary. As mentioned, I can not take from SRD add-on. You can add to wish list for us to address, and I can prioritize with other requests.

Regards,
JPG